S24.E10: The Women Tell All

[phlebas]

16 hours ago, kazza said:

why do we still call her Ashley I when Ashley Onion has long departed Bachelor Nation

Because there's a new Ashley in town.

 

[JenE4]

2 hours ago, leighdear said:

I usually skip the Tell All episodes, and this one was no exception.  But thanks to all of you awesome watchers and Reality Steve's tweets, I feel like I was right there with you!!!!!  *LOL*  

Did everybody do the "Spot the Upcoming Paradise Contestants"?  Usually the ones with the most camera time, the most skin exposed and the most Chris Harrison attention.  We know Victoria the Ho is DEFINITELY going to be there, plus plenty of the girlies that "hate" each other.  And a few that are literally unidentifiable sprinkled in for good measure.  Good times!

 

Unless I’m forgetting someone, only Kelsey and Victoria got “couch time,” a segment to personally speak with Harrison. It was strange. Usually a handful of girls get that focus, including just talking to someone with a fun or standout personality and Harrison personally invites them to a Paradise. That didn’t happen because the first quarter of the show was picking up at the rose ceremony, and the last quarter of the show was a Very Special the More You Know segment, featuring Rachel, and then bloopers and preview. There was probably only about an hour of the Women Telling All, but they were All Telling at the same time, so we couldn’t comprehend a majority of it. But, I would say expect to see Victoria, Kelsey, Sydney, Tammy, and MyKenna in Paradise. They were the Women Telling the Most.

[SHD]

18 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Nobody knows how this ends?  Not even Peter?  ahahahhahahahahaha what the fuck?

Maybe that knock on the head was more serious that we thought! Either that or they drugged his champagne at the end.

[leighdear]

48 minutes ago, RealHousewife said:

That’s a shame imo. I know you take the risk of a bad edit, but I don’t think this is fair. If you go on the show and are bitchy, rude, catty, dramatic, emotional, don’t expect to be portrayed as a sweet, even-keeled young woman. But if you are pretty cool and mature like Kelly appeared to be most of the time, it’s not right for the producers to try to make you look bad. 

I admit to paying little attention to the episodes, but the times I did notice Kelly, her demeanor and comments came across as superior and above all of the foolishness.   It's fine to BE above the foolishness, lots of contestants are, but to keep pointing it out is never going to endear you to production. 

I see it as the Kelsey Poe syndrome.  The more you draw attention to your own egotistical view of yourself, your estimation of your own intelligence and how much better you are than the others, the more somebody, somewhere is going to want to take you down a peg.  

I remember Kelly was a lawyer because she kept referring to it.  She might have been great, just not what I saw.  

Edited March 3, 2020 by leighdear

[phlebas]

1 hour ago, leighdear said:

I remember Kelly was a lawyer because she kept referring to it.  She might have been great, just not what I saw.  

Kelley seemed pretty cool early on, but her last episode got severely franken-bit.  It sounded like she was full of herself, but it really seemed like the editor assembled a bunch of clips to give that impression.  I was wondering if production hated her until they didn't invite her to WTA.

[JudyObscure]

I thought Kelley and Peter both sounded silly from the very first by putting so much significance in the fact that they had run into each other before the show.  They were  on some sort of magical karma trip about that for awhile.  I roll my eyes like Tammy over that sort of thing and I would expect cooler logic from a lawyer. 

As or all those catty remarks about the other women and how they just didn't compare with her.  What does it matter whether she said them all at once or on different days?  If she hadn't said it, it wouldn't be on film to splice together.

[nlkm9]

7 hours ago, Scout Finch said:

My, Tammy certainly had some really unfortunate-looking expressions... 

Passing on the music version. I gagged over the getting to sing with the Plain White T's. I think that's why the only music competition show I've ever watched was Rock Star because it wasn't all boring Top 40/commercial pablum. I'm 56, and most of my explanations about what bands I'm into starts with, "Gawd, I sound like a damn hipster but you won't have heard of them."

Do people really get together and have huge Bachelor viewing parties? Especially to the point of dressing up in airline personnel garb?

I noticed those expressions on tammy and all i could think of was too much lip filler!!

 

[Katie111]

I hated how none of them went after Peter.  We’re they told by producers to dawn over him?  Clearly even they know he was the worst bachelor ever.  Why not call him out on how many rose ceremonies he cancelled?  And why he never wanted to spend the time to get to know them?  He was always either too “distraught” to finish a group date or he “knew what he wanted to do” so he would cancel the rose ceremony.   And he made out with more of them than any bachelor in history.  I would have been calling him out on that as well, it was so gross.  Also, his constant running to the girls after he heard a rumor about them and telling exactly who had said what.  Ridiculous.  
 

And I agree, they should have called Victoria P out on her blatant lying.  I wish they brought her and Alayah up on the couch together to sort it out.   And why not ask Victoria F what her family thought about not meeting Peter?   Or the fact that Peter clearly slept with her in the fantasy suite and then dumped her the next day. I liked Savannah last night as she called out a lot of the girls but wasn’t nasty about it.  I could never figure out why she got no airtime with Peter. 

[waving feather]

Damn, production are cowards. I'd love to see Kelley call them out and their rebuttal. It was so obvious in the last episode that Kelley's words were spliced and diced. Things can mean differently when it's taken out of context. She was never that arrogant before that episode and mostly minded her business so I will say something is up when her personality changed drastically. Oh well, she didn't miss much by not attending the Tell All anyway. 

I can't believe no one called out Victoria P for being a bold faced liar.

[Rainsong]

28 minutes ago, waving feather said:

I can't believe no one called out Victoria P for being a bold faced liar.

 

Only quoting this to elucidate.  Savannah had a red hot go at VP, calling her 'the fakest person here' and tearing a strip off her for her antics re:  Alayah.

 

At least one person in this room was applauding.

[leighdear]

The entire Internet has been calling Peter the weakest, most boring Bachelor ever, and worse than Juan Pablo.  I think the producers realized it going in to WTA, so they kept the confrontations and tough questions to a minimum. 

The world was already making fun of him, why let these miserable, clawing, blood-sucking creatures pile on too?  I think it was just out of sympathy for the guy.  

[the-grey-lady]

If I never have to hear the phrase "you followed your heart" again, it'll be too soon. When did that become the be all/end all of human decision making, anyway?

[LuvMyShows]

21 hours ago, TheFinalRose said:

Didn't Kelsey just admit to calling someone (I'm too lazy to look up who) a f-ing dramatic bitch on the same show? Didn't Tammy just accuse Mykenna of spreading her legs every time the camera turned her way? And then we get the lecture? 

I was seriously gobsmacked with how insanely hypocritical it was for Chris Harrison (and by extension, the show) to sound so pious about how horrible the tweets were and yet have no words of scorn for the horrible things the girls were saying to each other on stage.  A teaching point really was missed...it would have been so easy to say something like, "And it starts with how people treat each other when they're talking."

23 hours ago, Sessa said:

Victoria F:  “ I see something in him that I’ve never seen in anyone else before“ 

Code for “A missing wedding ring?”

Victoria also said something like she had never met anyone with a love so pure as Peter.  That could very well be because she had never 'been with' anyone who was available and actually interested in a relationship.

On 3/2/2020 at 8:57 PM, EllenB said:

Trying to figure out what Tammy (and other aggressively nasty women) get out of acting the way they do.  I've only met one person like that in my life (of many, many decades), and my response to her was, "What are you, twelve?" I just don't get it.

On 3/2/2020 at 8:53 PM, Ms Blue Jay said:

I hated how Tammy used "She's from CANADA" as an insult to Mykenna but then tonight Mykenna tried to use it as a "burn" on Tammy that she she should come to Canada to learn some politeness, and well, I've never seen the American crowd so confused.  😞  LOL Nice try Mykenna 

It's so frustrating how people ike Mykenna don't see that every time they go on and on in that overly pious way to someone like Tammy about how what you said was so hurtful, all it does is fuel their fire.  A well-placed dismissal (along the lines of "Your venom just makes you look so very pathetic.") would be far more effective.  Mykenna really thought her Canada line was going to garner lots of applause.

[call me ishmael]

I actually thought this was one of the most satisfying WTA ever because it was so boring that i was able to get reading done.

i did think that CH was very careful in what he asked VF.  He didn’t say “have you ever had affairs with married men?”  He said “have you ever broken up a marriage?”  For all we know she never did the latter.

[Wandering Snark]

Great post Katie111! I agree that Peter's "approach" in running the day to day things on his "journey" became more of a step by step 'What Not To Do' for future bachelors.

As for the obvious soft-tossing of any 'real' questions I would have loved to hear for example "How close were you to leaving the show when Peter gave the date rose to someone who wasn't even on the date and other times he rewarded drama?" His rash of cocktail party cancellations was especially damaging to the group. Some women would be totally given the mushroom treatment (fed bullshit and left in the dark) day after day with no opportunity to do the sacred "furthering of our relationship". But none of that was even touched on.

Instead, we spent what seemed like half an hour on the champagne thing.

I hope that the next season features a return to the structure of the show. Giving the Bach/ette the power to cancel cocktail parties (because you 'know what you want to do'), evenings of group dates and even family visits is not only rude to the women it makes the show totally careen off course. Peter kept saying how much he believes that "the process" works but then never followed the process!

This Peter Party the threw disguised as a WTA to retroactively make Peter not the worst. bachelor. evar. was pretty transparent. "Tell me how much you grew from knowing this amazing desirable saint of a man... won't you?" Who wants to start??" I wonder if Peter really just wanted to cancel the WTA so they did this to placate him.

[TheFinalRose]

3 hours ago, Katie111 said:

I hated how none of them went after Peter.  We’re they told by producers to dawn over him?  Clearly even they know he was the worst bachelor ever.  Why not call him out on how many rose ceremonies he cancelled?  And why he never wanted to spend the time to get to know them?  He was always either too “distraught” to finish a group date or he “knew what he wanted to do” so he would cancel the rose ceremony.   And he made out with more of them than any bachelor in history.  I would have been calling him out on that as well, it was so gross.  Also, his constant running to the girls after he heard a rumor about them and telling exactly who had said what.  Ridiculous.  
 

AND no mention of how Peter's mooning over his Queen Hannah Brown practically ruined the first two episodes/weeks/dates? Remember the almost mutiny because he had to cancel the date to go back to his room and mope over his feelings for Hannah?  

[Stats Queen]

11 minutes ago, TheFinalRose said:

AND no mention of how Peter's mooning over his Queen Hannah Brown practically ruined the first two episodes/weeks/dates? Remember the almost mutiny because he had to cancel the date to go back to his room and mope over his feelings for Hannah?  

If only there had been a mutiny - anything to make this show genuine, real and actually entertaining 

[chocolatine]

A show titled The Bachelor: Listen To Your Heart had better have Roxette's Listen To Your Heart as its theme song. Or at least have one of the newly-minted musician couples perform a cover of it on a date. Otherwise, what's the point?

The Rachel segment was tedious. It would have been so much better to do a Jimmy Kimmel tie-in with Mean Tweets: Bachelor Edition. Learn from true celebrities who can laugh off the trolls.

The tell-all format has gotten stale over the years. They need to shake it up and use a different host - one who is not a producer of the show - to ask the questions the audience wants answered.

[Meowwww]

There were no real questions or moments.  Even Victoria got by with one soft question. Boring. Producers, do better.  

[JenE4]

9 hours ago, leighdear said:

The entire Internet has been calling Peter the weakest, most boring Bachelor ever, and worse than Juan Pablo.  I think the producers realized it going in to WTA, so they kept the confrontations and tough questions to a minimum. 

The world was already making fun of him, why let these miserable, clawing, blood-sucking creatures pile on too?  I think it was just out of sympathy for the guy.  

I wouldn’t be too sure about that. Harrison & Show were pleased to turn on Juan Pablo at his live end-of-season shows. Then again, it seems that Juan Pablo gave the producers a hard time, so as long as Peter was okay to the staff, I’m sure they don’t care much how he treated the contestants—as long as it made for good TV. And, hell, anytime Peter scooted stage left and canceled a party, they got lots of good footage of the girls fighting over whose fault it was that the party was canceled. Silly girls, it was  Peter’s fault! 

[Mu Shu]

21 hours ago, NaughtyKitty said:

Why do her bikini bottoms look like Photoshop gone bad?  Or she's got a load in them?

Yes. Victoria has a Brazilian butt lift which often has a pointed look. They had to smear on a lot of red and to sort of round it, so it looks like she is wearing a loaded diaper. I guess they decided that was the best they could do, that it looked awful, and stopped short of shopping Peters meek boner out. 

[GracieK]

I have to wonder how much of Rachel’s segment was at the urging of legal. I’m sure some of these people do receive threats, or even retain their own attorneys in the event that the show goes too far on editing someone poorly.. this was a bit of CYA. We don’t condone or perpetuate this behavior! We used our platform to address it even!

[StatisticalOutlier]

13 hours ago, call me ishmael said:

i did think that CH was very careful in what he asked VF.  He didn’t say “have you ever had affairs with married men?”  He said “have you ever broken up a marriage?”  For all we know she never did the latter.

And even if the husband's affair with her was the proximate cause of the breakup, she could believe that the marriage was going to break up no matter what she did, so when asked, she could Lance-Armstrong it and truthfully, in her mind, say that she hadn't broken one up.

[Just Carol]

I am behind Tammy all the way.  Sydney is the WORST, and if I had a Twitter account or whatever "DMs" are, I would tell her so.   

Oh, and Aliya, if your OWN MOTHER refers to your "princess voice" that you have been doing all your life, then you have a problem.

ETA:  I am not in the spoiler section, but half-wonder if "Bring her (back) home to us!" refers to the gf Peter broke up with to go on Hannah Brown's season.

Edited March 4, 2020 by Just Carol
Eta

[ljenkins782]

On 3/2/2020 at 8:19 PM, JenE4 said:

Madison should have said no and gone down as a Bachelor legend! Even Peter tried to talk her out of it: Are you sure?

Just curious, what would have happened if she'd said no? Does Peter turn back to Victoria and go "hey, you want this instead?" Because otherwise it means Hannah Ann wins on the spot (albeit by default, which is an awesome way to start a relationship, lol).

Quote

Only here for the beginning. Can't take a second of Women Tell All. Can't stand Tammy, Sydney, any of them really. I didn't care about Mykenna before and I certainly do not now. She's like a walking inspirational Pinterest quote.

Mykenna is hands down the most annoying contestant in many years. I was dreading the inevitable zombie clapping from the crowd whenever she spit out one of her rehearsed quotes, so I was very pleased that on her last one (when Chris Harrison teed her up by giving her the last word over Tammy), the audience sat completely dead. Ha! 

This was an exceptionally lame episode. I don't think anything of interest was said/revealed and I have little desire to see most of these people again.

Quote

I don’t understand why the producers think we want to watch a bunch of women yell over each other to the point where you have no idea what anyone s saying. It’s not satisfying or entertaining. It’s actually somewhat stressful. As mentioned upthread, the people I was watching with also made democratic debate jokes. They pretape this and edit it; there’s no reason to keep those sections in. I still have no idea what Victoria P’s justification was for lying, because I couldn’t hear her over the six people yelling at her trying to get screentime.

Yes! That's the one that I really wanted to get clarity on because her lying was so sincerely expressed, I wanted to hear her explain herself in front of Alayah.

Quote

So, it’s come out that Kelley wasn’t asked was because she had wanted to call out production on unfairly editing.   Specifically, in her last segment, she said a lot of unkind things, but apparently, it was all spliced together to make it look like she said it all at once.  Yes, she did say those things, and yes, she knew what she signed up for, but she was going to call out production.

That's interesting, I'd assumed that she voluntarily skipped it due to her edit. I remember thinking that during the episode that she left, suddenly the editing made her out to be a snide asshole when she hadn't really shown signs of that at any other point. She stayed out of the drama all season and seemed relatively cool right up until that last episode. And several of those voiceovers definitely had the whiff of Frankenbyting. 

[StatisticalOutlier]

On 3/2/2020 at 10:37 PM, leocadia said:

LOL!  I actually paused the show to take a pic of that shot to send to a friend.  I know they explained at some point who they were, but that first out of context shot made it look like they stumbled into the wrong studio and wished they were anywhere else.

I missed the explanation, and I was really wondering.  Who were they?

 

On 3/3/2020 at 5:13 AM, Mu Shu said:

We really need to institute 2 years of military service like Israel does for every young person who is able to serve. These women, and Peter, are socially stunted. It’s painful to watch. Poor things were brought up in a bubble.

I've thought that for years, and it seems like even more of a good idea these days. 

And the ones who aren't able to serve do an alternative gig, like my boyfriend who was Amish during the Vietnam war and worked in a hospital instead of serving in the military.

 

20 minutes ago, ljenkins782 said:

Just curious, what would have happened if she'd said no? Does Peter turn back to Victoria and go "hey, you want this instead?"

Oh, man, what I wouldn't give for this to have happened.

[leighdear]

13 hours ago, chocolatine said:

A show titled The Bachelor: Listen To Your Heart had better have Roxette's Listen To Your Heart as its theme song. Or at least have one of the newly-minted musician couples perform a cover of it on a date. Otherwise, what's the point?

 

It strikes me as strange that the singer of that track, Marie Frederiksson died in December.  Using it as their "theme" just creeps me out a bit, as weren't they filming then?    

[Andyourlittledog2]

3 hours ago, StatisticalOutlier said:

And even if the husband's affair with her was the proximate cause of the breakup, she could believe that the marriage was going to break up no matter what she did, so when asked, she could Lance-Armstrong it and truthfully, in her mind, say that she hadn't broken one up.

Loose women don't break up marriages. Loose husbands break up marriages.  In the context of a cheating husband, I mean. The idea that if it were not for the evil other woman dear hubby would be a faithful saint is old. Victoria may have gone out with married men, but she didn't drug them and kidnap them to do it. They have agency.

[phlebas]

I'm sorry if this was answered already, but I couldn't find it.  At what point did the three women stop rooming together? I was hoping we'd get a scene of a dejected Madison walking back into the hotel room she shared with Hannah Ann and Victoria, and them awkwardly trying to comfort her while she explains what happened.

But since they were all "where's Madi?" at the rose ceremony, I assume she didn't come back to the room at all after she left Peter. Otherwise, they could have offered her a ride.

It's too bad she didn't walk up and shout "Good morning, sluts!  Sorry I'm late!"

[nlkm9]

On 3/3/2020 at 11:34 AM, Gregg247 said:

I didn't like Rachel's "The Evils of the Internet" segment of the show.  There are some terrible people out there, saying awful things to people they only know from watching them on TV.  I get the feeling, however, that these crazies are very few in number, and are the same people who spew venom at politicians, sports stars, musicians, actors, AND reality show "stars".  These nuts spend a LOT of their day sending these texts/e-mails to many, many people.  99% of Internet users are normal (or at least, people like us on this site! haha).  I wasn't sure, while watching Rachel, what the "call to action" was supposed to be.  What are we, the public, supposed to do with this new-found knowledge of Internet crazies?  The segment just seemed a little pointless (but definitely sad for the receivers of these messages).

Beyond that, the show was a bit bland.  None of the women had anything negative to say to Peter at all.  No one even asked him any pointed questions.  All I heard was, "You did such a great job, following your heart.  Dating you has made me a better person!"  Really?????????

Cmon if they tick off the producers they will not be ok bip or gain instagram followers . Look what happened to kelly . 

[hilaryvm]

2 hours ago, StatisticalOutlier said:

I missed the explanation, and I was really wondering.  Who were they?

I believe Chris Harrison said they were members of a fraternity who hosted a viewing party.  (I'm certain on the viewing party part, not so much the fraternity part).

[leocadia]

3 hours ago, phlebas said:

But since they were all "where's Madi?" at the rose ceremony, I assume she didn't come back to the room at all after she left Peter. Otherwise, they could have offered her a ride.

For all we know, they could have all driven over together and Maddie may have been pulled aside by production.  The "Where's Maddie" could just have easily meant "Why is she not here on the mat?"  as opposed to "Why is she not on site?"  The magical editors conveniently left us hanging after her date with Peter to make us think she went home.

Of course we'll never know...maybe they put her up at a hotel or something so they could convince her to stay.  Whatever the case, it was clearly a lot of manufactured drama.

[StatisticalOutlier]

5 hours ago, Andyourlittledog2 said:

Loose women don't break up marriages. Loose husbands break up marriages.  In the context of a cheating husband, I mean. The idea that if it were not for the evil other woman dear hubby would be a faithful saint is old. Victoria may have gone out with married men, but she didn't drug them and kidnap them to do it. They have agency.

Surely people still think it's wrong to have an affair with someone who's married.  Well, obviously Victoria doesn't, which is why I think she could honestly say she didn't break up the marriage.  But are we at the point that when a marriage does break up because the wronged partner can't get over the affair, the other person involved in the affair didn't contribute to the breakup?

[Sweet-tea]

On 3/2/2020 at 8:14 PM, Kendra143 said:

Dear god Victoria F can’t even muster an actual tear.  Maybe she should stick her fingers in her eyes to generate some tears instead of snuffling and wiping under her eyes. Oh good lord....

Interesting how they tried to make her sympathetic and it didn’t work. I also noticed she gave no explanation about how or why the rumors started beyond the woman didn’t like her, just said they weren’t true. Sure honey. 

On 3/2/2020 at 8:16 PM, neece26 said:

Yes! I would have had a lot more respect for Madison if she stuck to her principles.  Would have loved to see her not show up to the rose ceremony or not accept his rose.  Peter is no prize and definitely not worth compromising your values for him.  That was a very awkward and joyless rose ceremony!

I agree. Nothing has changed. He slept with the other two women. A day later doesn’t make it different. 

Also agree the women were unusually easy on Peter compared to other bachelors on the WTA. Producers were probably trying to rewrite history and make Peter more desirable and interesting instead of the indecisive wimpy man-child we saw. 

Edited March 5, 2020 by Sweet-tea

[Kiss my mutt]

They probably were admonished by Peter’s mommy to go easy on her precious boy so he doesn’t cry. Someone needs to hold his feet to the fire. 
 

Of course, Victoria (she seems more like a two bit Vikki) didn’t singlehandedly break up a marriage, but if you’re playing mistress with four married men, you don’t deserve the benefit of the doubt. 

[nlkm9]

10 hours ago, StatisticalOutlier said:

Surely people still think it's wrong to have an affair with someone who's married.  Well, obviously Victoria doesn't, which is why I think she could honestly say she didn't break up the marriage.  But are we at the point that when a marriage does break up because the wronged partner can't get over the affair, the other person involved in the affair didn't contribute to the breakup?

150% the cheater who is breaking his vows is at fault..but a woman who makes it clear she is there to pick up the pieces and will be "there" for a married guy in anyway doesnt help.

[Lamb18]

17 hours ago, Andyourlittledog2 said:

Loose women don't break up marriages. Loose husbands break up marriages.  In the context of a cheating husband, I mean. The idea that if it were not for the evil other woman dear hubby would be a faithful saint is old. Victoria may have gone out with married men, but she didn't drug them and kidnap them to do it. They have agency.

Yes, but she can choose not to be involved with married men. She wasn't drugged or kidnapped either.

[valen]

7 minutes ago, Lamb18 said:

Yes, but she can choose not to be involved with married men. She wasn't drugged or kidnapped either.

It also wasn't a one time mistake. Four times is on purpose. It's almost like it was a game to her. 

[Recyclorette]

15 hours ago, Kiss my mutt said:

They probably were admonished by Peter’s mommy to go easy on her precious boy so he doesn’t cry. Someone needs to hold his feet to the fire. 
 

Of course, Victoria (she seems more like a two bit Vikki) didn’t singlehandedly break up a marriage, but if you’re playing mistress with four married men, you don’t deserve the benefit of the doubt. 

Wouldn't it have been interesting to see Peter end up with Victoria?  To see this silly boy who still lives at home with his fawning mama bring a vixen "home" to her?  Maybe Victoria would have helped him grow up real fast!  Unfortunately, I think the end of all this is going to be cringe worthy watching this guy and his mommy cry and whine.  Why would any woman want to get involved with that?  It's unfortunate that both Hannah Ann and Madison are both too young and inexperienced to know better.

[Bobcatkitten]

The question wasn't "have you broken up four marriages" because doing that takes two people. The question is "have you dated multiple married men?" And Chris Harrison was too much of a wimp to ask it. 

[deSchenke]

26 minutes ago, Bobcatkitten said:

The question wasn't "have you broken up four marriages" because doing that takes two people. The question is "have you dated multiple married men?" And Chris Harrison was too much of a wimp to ask it. 

"Dated"?  What is the definition of that?

[Kiss my mutt]

I’d probably word is as “hooked up with”. That’s all she’s got to give. 

[PhysNerd]

On 3/4/2020 at 3:21 PM, Andyourlittledog2 said:

Loose women don't break up marriages. Loose husbands break up marriages.  In the context of a cheating husband, I mean. The idea that if it were not for the evil other woman dear hubby would be a faithful saint is old. Victoria may have gone out with married men, but she didn't drug them and kidnap them to do it. They have agency.

Married men are responsible for their marriages.  Women who choose to be involved with married men are responsible for their own actions. This means married men should immediately say "no" to any woman who tries to lead them astray and women should immediately back off when they find out a man is married. It shows a complete lack of morals and decency for someone to cheat on their spouse and for someone to have an affair with a married person.  It's pathetic and neither person involved in an affair can claim to be innocent.

[Mabinogia]

13 hours ago, PhysNerd said:

Married men are responsible for their marriages.  Women who choose to be involved with married men are responsible for their own actions. This means married men should immediately say "no" to any woman who tries to lead them astray and women should immediately back off when they find out a man is married.

If it had been once I could maybe buy that either she didn't know he was married when it started or maybe she naively bought into some sob story about his marriage being over, his wife doesn't love him/get him whatever, but it's been reported as more than one married man, at which point that is 100% on her, it's a pattern. She either doesn't care about other people or she likes the challenge and it makes her feel good about herself that she can make a man break his commitment. Little does she know, it doesn't really say much about her allure, only that she picks men with low morals. I mean, let's face it, she's not with any of these men so once their marriages were supposedly ruined they didn't come running to her. lol

[JudyObscure]

13 hours ago, PhysNerd said:

It shows a complete lack of morals and decency for someone to cheat on their spouse and for someone to have an affair with a married person.

Thank you for putting it so clearly.  It's only in recent years that I've been hearing excuses for the unmarried person and a whole different definition of adultery just  because one person "didn't take a vow."  I didn't take a vow not to steal my neighbor's car, but I still know it's wrong, and no, it's not an excuse to say that if I didn't steal it someone else would have, or that the neighbor shouldn't have left the keys in the car.  I'm still a thief.