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S05.E02: Between Two Fires

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As Jamie continues to hunt Murtagh with the aid of the zealous Lieutenant Hamilton Knox, he's forced to consider whether or not he's on the right side of history.

 

Reminder: This is the No Book Talk topic. No discussion of the books is allowed including saying "in the books..." Posts may be removed without warning.

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Well this was a much better episode.

Tarring and feathering, ouch! Murtagh is really digging his own grave. I keep waiting for him to be caught and there is only so much Jamie can get him out of.  As Jamie intimated this episode; he was worried! Looked like he wanted to clock Murtagh. 😄

I was glad Claire suggested that Roger and Brianna leave eventually. Keep pushing, Claire! I’m in the I don’t like Roger and Bree club. It’s Claire’s story I’m really interested in, and if they want to focus on a younger couple more, then please, let it be Marsali and Fergus. They’re so much more interesting. I really like Marsali and never liked the way Brianna’s character was written. The fact I don’t find Sophie fitting the role well doesn’t help. Maybe it’s the accent she has trouble with but I find she slurs over her words and it affects her acting.

I was happy to see that Marsali will be Claire’s assistant. Claire’s healing is a big draw for me, and this means more time at it, and with another character I like. After Marsali’s initial WTF reaction to the autopsy (funny scene), I’m glad she accepted and even looked pretty avid. Claire can use the help. Maybe Claire will send Marsali off to see if she can pass through the stones to get a proper surgeon’s degree. j/k It will be interesting seeing Claire teach Marsali the ins (pardon the pun) and outs. Maybe they’ll invent penicillin together!

I guess Jamie has been giving Brianna shooting lessons. While poor Roger can’t seem to hit the side of a barn, lol.

 

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Oh, boo hoo. Roger whining about how Jamie doesn't respect him and left him behind to "protect" Claire and Bree just made me roll my eyes. You ditched his daughter before you finally came around and you can't hunt, shoot, or do anything to provide for your wife and child in this time period, so why WOULD Jamie respect you?

If you're actually interested in earning his respect (as opposed to just whining about it), the first order of business is to improve your skills so that you can feed and protect your family. And that means more than strolling around the woods and occasionally aiming at a squirrel. Stand in front of a tree and keep adjusting your aim until you actually hit it. Practice makes perfect!

I know I'm a modern city girl and that going back to a time before electricity and grocery stores would be quite a wake up call, but I KNOW THAT and if I chose to time travel then I would make damn sure I trained and practiced and learned enough to at least survive on my own. Roger doesn't know how to farm or hunt or have a marketable skill that will pay him, so why is he at all surprised that Jamie doesn't think much of him? How does he think he will provide for a family of three? Jamie has legitimate concerns about his daughter and grandson.

Roger has a shitty attitude about family for someone who is married. I consider Mr. EB's family to be my family now too. Family by marriage is still family and it's terrible to tell your wife that her family, who she loves, is not your family.

Heh, but he did win some points for his Nancy Drew joke.

Oh, Claire. It was dangerous enough to do an autopsy on a local but then to keep the body in the house? That's just asking to get accused of witchcraft!

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Can someone please kill Stephen Bonnet already? My wish is as follows--going to put in spoiler tag because although it's pure speculation and I have not read this or later books, I want to be respectful.

Spoiler

I hope they convince the English that Bonnet is Murtagh and get him hanged.

I hope that Brianna and Roger move to the city where he can get a job using his writing skills, which I imagine were still somewhat uncommon among settlers.  Perhaps they can have an engineering firm and he can be the business side of it,

I like the new role for Marsali, but want more Fergus!  I was hoping Claire would take Roger on as her apprentice and give him something useful to do, but this probably makes more sense.

I do think we have seen the beginning of the next "Claire is a witch" episode.  There will be some outbreak that is blamed on her experiments.

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1 hour ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Oh, boo hoo. Roger whining about how Jamie doesn't respect him and left him behind to "protect" Claire and Bree just made me roll my eyes. You ditched his daughter before you finally came around and you can't hunt, shoot, or do anything to provide for your wife and child in this time period, so why WOULD Jamie respect you?

If you're actually interested in earning his respect (as opposed to just whining about it), the first order of business is to improve your skills so that you can feed and protect your family. And that means more than strolling around the woods and occasionally aiming at a squirrel. Stand in front of a tree and keep adjusting your aim until you actually hit it. Practice makes perfect!

I know I'm a modern city girl and that going back to a time before electricity and grocery stores would be quite a wake up call, but I KNOW THAT and if I chose to time travel then I would make damn sure I trained and practiced and learned enough to at least survive on my own. Roger doesn't know how to farm or hunt or have a marketable skill that will pay him, so why is he at all surprised that Jamie doesn't think much of him? How does he think he will provide for a family of three? Jamie has legitimate concerns about his daughter and grandson.

Roger has a shitty attitude about family for someone who is married. I consider Mr. EB's family to be my family now too. Family by marriage is still family and it's terrible to tell your wife that her family, who she loves, is not your family.

Heh, but he did win some points for his Nancy Drew joke.

Oh, Claire. It was dangerous enough to do an autopsy on a local but then to keep the body in the house? That's just asking to get accused of witchcraft!

Well, he did survive crossing the ocean and working as a boat hand before being sold into slavery to the Indians.  I don't think Roger ever thought that he and Bree would be in the past for the long term or about the terrible things that could happen to Bree or to him.  I cut him a little slack for that. And he has a sense of humor.  And none of them would be there at all if he hadn't found Jamie for Claire in the first place.  She had no idea where to look for Jamie in the past except that Roger kept searching records for mention of him.  He gets points for that. He was the first to encourage Bree to even listen to her mother's story in the first place.

Claire understands his own reluctance to commit to life in the past, because she also was that way for a bit of time before she fell completely in love with Jamie.  She knows the perils of life in the past compared to the present, so she has a bit more sympathy for him.

And even Claire has difficulty, sometimes, with Jamie's somewhat narrow and Catholic view of the world.  She's opened his mind a lot, but not as much as she would like, I bet. Her conversation with Bree last season about helping her end the pregnancy would not have gone over well with him, I do not think.

 

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I don't dislike Roger as much as most people here. I really just do feel sorry for him. I do think it really was a "I'll come get Brianna, we'll save Clair and Jaime and go home." i don't think really "staying in the wrong time, ever in life." occurred to him. 

How is Clair going to find the right strain of Penicillin? more importantly how is she going to like administer it? 

i love Murtagh, i do but .. "stay hidden" doesn't = "tar and feather" people. 

 

Stephen Bonnet can die anytime now. 

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I really enjoyed this episode. It had a little bit of everything, and I liked the smaller slice-of-life scenes, such as the women making candles and Claire baking bread.

With regards to Roger and Brianna, I wonder what sort of conversation they had, if any, about their long-range plans. Roger seems to be under the impression that going back was a matter of "when" and not "if," while Brianna clearly doesn't want to leave her family. It will be interesting to see if that eventually strains their marriage.

Marsali's reaction to the dead body was hysterical. I'm glad she's the one apprenticing with Claire rather than going with the obvious mother/daughter pairing. 

Bonnett is a dirtbag as usual. When he fought that guy, did he blind him or just slash his face? I'm assuming karma will hit him eventually and I can't wait. 

I don't know how much longer Jamie will be able to play both sides. Unless the British officer is a complete idiot, he'll eventually figure out why they keep closing in on the Regulators only for them to slip away. 

Next week's preview looked good, can't wait for the new epi!

Edited by BitterApple
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I hope Brianna gets to kill Bonnet!

Edited by Cdh20 · Reason: spelling mistake
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41 minutes ago, Cdh20 said:

I hope Brianna gets to kill Bonnet!

As much as I like that idea, I kinda hope it’s Roger so he can earn some street cred.

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22 minutes ago, nara said:

As much as I like that idea, I kinda hope it’s Roger so he can earn some street cred.

That is a great idea! But this show is usually about the women kicking a$$ so my guess is still Bree. I hope it's not Jamie!

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17 hours ago, ferjy said:

I guess Jamie has been giving Brianna shooting lessons. While poor Roger can’t seem to hit the side of a barn, lol.

There was a scene last season shortly after Jamie and Brianna met, Brianna was firing a gun and Jamie noticed she was quite skilled and asked where she learned to shoot so well and Brianna told him that Frank had taught her when they went on camping trips. 

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I was hoping the "I am Murtagh" moment would turn in to a "I am Spartacus" moment, and all three would claim to be Murtagh.  

I was grossed out by the autopsy-in-progress body.  Claire already figured out that he had a burst appendix, and subsequent "medical" treatment meant he would die.  According to wiki, the first successful surgery was in 1759, so likely that knowledge wouldn't have spread to the colonies yet, but Claire could have performed an appendectomy if the man had come to see her sooner.  In Season 4, Claire used her medical expertise to help while at the theatre(?) but I don't recall what the problem was.

What year are we in? Gov. Tryon served in NC from 1765-1771.

And yes, Bonnet can die any time now.  A slow, lingering, horrible death preferably.

 

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I imagine with Bonnet spewing those "I am a father now!" words, that he is going to come looking for his kid??? This show likes foreshadowing!

Also how annoying is it for Claire that she is not respected enough as a Dr? But how sneaky of her to use the male Dr's name in her article? Good on you Claire! And Marsali (Lauren )is a gift!

I like that Roger is now aware that Bree is still suffering from Bonnet's rape. I hope they will discuss it?

3 hours ago, zoey1996 said:

I was hoping the "I am Murtagh" moment would turn in to a "I am Spartacus" moment, and all three would claim to be Murtagh.  

I was grossed out by the autopsy-in-progress body.  Claire already figured out that he had a burst appendix, and subsequent "medical" treatment meant he would die.  According to wiki, the first successful surgery was in 1759, so likely that knowledge wouldn't have spread to the colonies yet, but Claire could have performed an appendectomy if the man had come to see her sooner.  In Season 4 Claire used her medical expertise to help while at the theatre(?) but I don't recall what the problem was?

What year are we in? Gov. Tryon served in NC from 1765-1771.

And yes, Bonnet can die any time now.  A slow, lingering, horrible death preferably.

 

She fixed a hernia on Fanning (who was also in this episode).

Edited by Cdh20 · Reason: adding a thought
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2 hours ago, Cdh20 said:

She fixed a hernia on Fanning (who was also in this episode).

Thank you.

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On ‎2‎/‎23‎/‎2020 at 2:46 AM, ferjy said:

I’m in the I don’t like Roger and Bree club. It’s Claire’s story I’m really interested in, and if they want to focus on a younger couple more, then please, let it be Marsali and Fergus. They’re so much more interesting. I really like Marsali and never liked the way Brianna’s character was written. The fact I don’t find Sophie fitting the role well doesn’t help. Maybe it’s the accent she has trouble with but I find she slurs over her words and it affects her acting.

I totally agree with everything you said here!

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On 2/23/2020 at 8:54 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Oh, boo hoo. Roger whining about how Jamie doesn't respect him and left him behind to "protect" Claire and Bree just made me roll my eyes. You ditched his daughter before you finally came around and you can't hunt, shoot, or do anything to provide for your wife and child in this time period, so why WOULD Jamie respect you?

If you're actually interested in earning his respect (as opposed to just whining about it), the first order of business is to improve your skills so that you can feed and protect your family. And that means more than strolling around the woods and occasionally aiming at a squirrel. Stand in front of a tree and keep adjusting your aim until you actually hit it. Practice makes perfect!

I know I'm a modern city girl and that going back to a time before electricity and grocery stores would be quite a wake up call, but I KNOW THAT and if I chose to time travel then I would make damn sure I trained and practiced and learned enough to at least survive on my own. Roger doesn't know how to farm or hunt or have a marketable skill that will pay him, so why is he at all surprised that Jamie doesn't think much of him? How does he think he will provide for a family of three? Jamie has legitimate concerns about his daughter and grandson.

Roger has a shitty attitude about family for someone who is married. I consider Mr. EB's family to be my family now too. Family by marriage is still family and it's terrible to tell your wife that her family, who she loves, is not your family.

Heh, but he did win some points for his Nancy Drew joke.

Oh, Claire. It was dangerous enough to do an autopsy on a local but then to keep the body in the house? That's just asking to get accused of witchcraft!

I'm actually with Rodger on this (Yes I purposely spelled his name with a G) cuz he and Brianna and that kid (What the hell did they name it? Jemmy? Is it a girl? I thought it was a boy child?) Need to get the hell outta Dodge!

Like Claire said -- the time they are in is dangerous! Disease! Accidents! War is a coming! Get the hell outta Dodge!

I am interested to see whatshername and Claire working together. That might be fun.

Steven Bonnett is alive and looking for his baby mama! haha! I just love what a piece of shit he is! He is mad, bad and dangerous to know! (Right<<< anyone get the reference?? anyone?)

 

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13 hours ago, taanja said:

(What the hell did they name it? Jemmy? Is it a girl? I thought it was a boy child?)

His name is Jeremy Jeremiah. Nickname Jemmy. 

(Oops, thanks for the correction, Sew Sumi.)

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His name is actually Jeremiah, after Roger's middle name. Hence, the singing of Joy to the World to the baby. (Jeremiah was a bullfrog...)

 

 

Edited by Sew Sumi
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On 2/23/2020 at 9:45 PM, jmnf19 said:

There was a scene last season shortly after Jamie and Brianna met, Brianna was firing a gun and Jamie noticed she was quite skilled and asked where she learned to shoot so well and Brianna told him that Frank had taught her when they went on camping trips. 

Thanks, I'd forgotten about that. I remember now that it was the first time Brianna mentioned Frank as her father, which naturally bothered Jamie a bit.

 

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6 hours ago, taanja said:

Like Claire said -- the time they are in is dangerous! Disease! Accidents! War is a coming! Get the hell outta Dodge!

Can't blame Brianna though. If you had a chance to stay with Claire and Jamie or go back and be alone with Roger, which would you choose? 😁  (I really dislike Roger. A shame too, because I like Richard Rankin and he's doing a great job, even with the awful material he's given as the character.)

 

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11 hours ago, ferjy said:

Can't blame Brianna though. If you had a chance to stay with Claire and Jamie or go back and be alone with Roger, which would you choose? 😁  (I really dislike Roger. A shame too, because I like Richard Rankin and he's doing a great job, even with the awful material he's given as the character.)

 

I personally think Claire is absolutely insane to chose to live in the past for some dude. Think of all the knowledge and expertise she is missing out on in her own time. The advances in medicine! The advances in technology! (In her own time it is the precipice of the technological revolution)

Brianna won't be alone with Rodger-- she will have that boy/girl child too - they are a family as Rodger said. That should be her priority -- the well being and safety of her child. 

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On 2/24/2020 at 8:26 AM, zoey1996 said:

What year are we in? Gov. Tryon served in NC from 1765-1771.

It’s 1771. Claire says it’s 157 years before the discovery of penicillin, which was in 1928.

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10 hours ago, taanja said:

I personally think Claire is absolutely insane to chose to live in the past for some dude. Think of all the knowledge and expertise she is missing out on in her own time. The advances in medicine! The advances in technology! (In her own time it is the precipice of the technological revolution)

Brianna won't be alone with Rodger-- she will have that boy/girl child too - they are a family as Rodger said. That should be her priority -- the well being and safety of her child. 

We go over this every season-I'd live in the past for Jamie! 

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Episode 2 for me can best be summed up by the proverbial, Good, Bad, and Ugly:

The Good:

Claire, Brianna, and Marsali being bad-asses.

Claire, by making the most of her doctor skills in 1771 America.

Brianna by teaching Roger how to hunt.

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Marsali, gutting the deer and putting Tywin Lannister to shame doing it AND agreeing to be Claire's apprentice.

Marsali's face when she walked in on Claire with the corpse was the BEST!

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Also, I love love LOVE the  relationship these two have.

Additionally, Bree and Claire's conversation (spawned from Claire's attempts to invent penicillin) about changing history and the irony that Bree wouldn't even exist and be here in this moment to debate this if it weren't for Claire changing history. 

Ed Speleers' acting. He does an excellent job of making me hate Bonnet and wish for his death.

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Jem taking his first steps. What a cutie.

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The Bad:

The tarring and feathering and Murtagh presumably being the ringleader of that barbarism. I was sickened by it, watching John Adams, and sicked by it as much here. I know war (or looming war) brings out the cruelty on both sides, but this was difficult to watch. 

Equally so was the man claiming to be Murtagh and then summarily gutted by Knox. 

Mr. Farrish being killed, though unknowingly, by his own wife.

Roger's incessant whining about them going back to their own time. He whined about it two seconds  after they were wed and hasn't let up. They don't even know for certain that Jem can travel and he's still a wee babe at this point. Plus, Bree still doesn't know for certain (I don't think) what month/year her parents died in the fire on Fraser's Ridge. Of course she's going to want to help prevent that, which she can't do if she's not there. And her wanting more time with her parents. And it's not that I'm dismissive of Roger's desire to return to the 1970s because living in the 1770s, especially for women and children, was a dangerous time and that's leaving out the war that's coming. I'm glad that they are in agreement to wait until Jem is a bit older to make the decision.

Seeing Jamie at the helm of the Redcoats (shudders).

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The Ugly:

Bonnet. Need I say more? I'm only read through Book 4, but I'm hoping this MF meets his end and soon and that it's at Brianna's hand and she's OWED that. I didn't need to see him go Mortal Kombat and it also didn't ring true to his wanting to blend in with society now that's escaped his irons.

The corpses - deer and human. And seriously, that Mr. Farrish's corpse would have stunk to high heaven by then, yet Marsali acted as if it was only the sight that bothered her.

Edited by CountryGirl
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I hate to say it, but I only made it through half of this episode before I turned it off. I think this show is not working for me anymore, primarily because of Roger and Bree.  Maybe I'll try again after the season is done and I can binge it.

Oh well, I will always adore the first few seasons of the show and I would absolutely live in the past for Jamie.

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55 minutes ago, Otherkate said:

 

 I would absolutely live in the past for Jamie.

At least there is 2 of us! ☺️

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On 2/26/2020 at 12:16 PM, taanja said:

I personally think Claire is absolutely insane to chose to live in the past for some dude. Think of all the knowledge and expertise she is missing out on in her own time. The advances in medicine! The advances in technology! (In her own time it is the precipice of the technological revolution)

Brianna won't be alone with Rodger-- she will have that boy/girl child too - they are a family as Rodger said. That should be her priority -- the well being and safety of her child. 

Er... it was a joke. 

 

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On 2/26/2020 at 11:16 AM, taanja said:

I personally think Claire is absolutely insane to chose to live in the past for some dude. Think of all the knowledge and expertise she is missing out on in her own time. The advances in medicine! The advances in technology! (In her own time it is the precipice of the technological revolution)

Brianna won't be alone with Rodger-- she will have that boy/girl child too - they are a family as Rodger said. That should be her priority -- the well being and safety of her child. 

Amen. Yes yes I know Claire is white but my fear of being sold into slavery would be too great. At this point I’m not even 3/5ths of a person!
 

For Briana I don’t see how the fear of disease or dying in childbirth (what are she and Rodger doing to prevent pregnancy???) just aren’t concerns. She doesn’t miss toilets?? She did get to meet Jaime, but okay she met him. Yes her Mom is in the past but her mom CHOSE to leave her and all of the benefits of 20th century living....

 

On 2/26/2020 at 9:26 PM, Cdh20 said:

We go over this every season-I'd live in the past for Jamie! 

You are a stronger woman than I. I can’t think of anything worth more than legal personhood, running water & electricity😂

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11 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

Amen. Yes yes I know Claire is white but my fear of being sold into slavery would be too great. At this point I’m not even 3/5ths of a person!
 

For Briana I don’t see how the fear of disease or dying in childbirth (what are she and Rodger doing to prevent pregnancy???) just aren’t concerns. She doesn’t miss toilets?? She did get to meet Jaime, but okay she met him. Yes her Mom is in the past but her mom CHOSE to leave her and all of the benefits of 20th century living....

 

You are a stronger woman than I. I can’t think of anything worth more than legal personhood, running water & electricity😂

Right! I didn't even take into account that my mixed race would make me less than a person. 

I just think of the little things-- like having your period. Makes that saying -- being on the rag - quite literal. And gross. You had to rinse them out  and reuse them.  No tampons. No pads. No corner convenient store to pick up some ibuprofen for cramps. No. Thank. You.

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13 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

 

For Briana I don’t see how the fear of disease or dying in childbirth (what are she and Rodger doing to prevent pregnancy???) just aren’t concerns.  

That would be my biggest concern as well. Claire is a skilled physician, but even she admitted she's limited due to lack of equipment and medicine. In the 21st century women still die in childbirth so I can't imagine what the mortality rates were back then. 

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On 2/23/2020 at 1:46 AM, ferjy said:

Claire’s healing is a big draw for me, and this means more time at it, and with another character I like.

Claire returning to the 20th century and learning to be a doctor was the right call for me. I feel like she knew she might go back someday. 

 

On 2/25/2020 at 3:30 PM, taanja said:

I'm actually with Rodger on this (Yes I purposely spelled his name with a G) cuz he and Brianna and that kid (What the hell did they name it? Jemmy? Is it a girl? I thought it was a boy child?) Need to get the hell outta Dodge!

I don't really have any investment in him and Bree because I find them boring. I don't need the 'out of my own time' plot because we've done that with Claire. However, to be fair, if Rodger was in a city, he'd likely find gainful employment. There are libraries and schools, or printing presses, etc.

I can get him being a little whiny because Jamie doesn't really like him, but 1 - you could tell Jamie to knock it the fuck off, and 2 - you could have conversation with your wife about moving to a city for work.  I think it would be quite the twist that 'modern' Rodger makes a unilateral decision that is 'of the times' in terms of telling his wife to shut the fuck up because he's the man and will be making the rules. 

On 2/28/2020 at 12:11 PM, CountryGirl said:

Plus, Bree still doesn't know for certain (I don't think) what month/year her parents died in the fire on Fraser's Ridge. Of course she's going to want to help prevent that, which she can't do if she's not there.

I thought they knew the year. Besides, they could just tell Jamie and Claire about it to warn them. It's not like their incapable people. 

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On 2/23/2020 at 9:54 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Oh, boo hoo. Roger whining about how Jamie doesn't respect him and left him behind to "protect" Claire and Bree just made me roll my eyes. You ditched his daughter before you finally came around and you can't hunt, shoot, or do anything to provide for your wife and child in this time period, so why WOULD Jamie respect you?

Roger doesn't know how to farm or hunt or have a marketable skill that will pay him, so why is he at all surprised that Jamie doesn't think much of him? How does he think he will provide for a family of three? Jamie has legitimate concerns about his daughter and grandson.

Roger has a shitty attitude about family for someone who is married.

Roger is a full-on prick with zero redeeming values. He's only with Bree because he'd otherwise die on his own, and Bree's parents rescued him when he was traded off. He's probably dying to get back through the stones, but he has absolutely no way to get to any stones. He needs to be lit on fire somewhere because he's only useful as a brief heat source. 🙄

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2 hours ago, lightninggirl said:

Roger is a full-on prick with zero redeeming values. He's only with Bree because he'd otherwise die on his own, and Bree's parents rescued him when he was traded off. He's probably dying to get back through the stones, but he has absolutely no way to get to any stones. He needs to be lit on fire somewhere because he's only useful as a brief heat source. 🙄

The only reason he needed to be rescued is because Jamie and Ian kidnapped him and sold him to the Mohawk.  And before that, they beat the shit out of him.  Jamie is far from blameless for this whole situation. 

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Taking that context, Bree isn't particularly useful except for making babies. And, given that it's not known whether the baby can go through the stones (I'm guessing yes), that's not particularly useful. Sure, she's learning to hunt, etc., but as boring as both of them are, Roger 'having to provide for his family' is a reasonable expectation, but the means by which is being impressed on him. He could get employment elsewhere. 

Besides, it's already been said, they wouldn't even be there in the first place if it wasn't for him. 

Roger knows where the stones are. Obviously they are a distance away, but he could conceivably get there. 

I think part of the problem is you have dashing Jamie, who has been at the French court, Claire who is effectively a mage since she knows modern medicine, and then you have these two drips. There's really not much of a plot for them. 

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On 2/23/2020 at 10:02 AM, nara said:

I hope that Brianna and Roger move to the city where he can get a job using his writing skills, which I imagine were still somewhat uncommon among settlers. 

Which makes it occur to me that not everyone will be able to read Claire's notices. Though they may be able to ask a friend who can.

On 3/8/2020 at 5:33 PM, DoctorAtomic said:

I thought they knew the year.

IIRC, the last digit of the year was illegible, so they only know the decade. But they have told Claire and Jamie.

Edited by Noneofyourbusiness

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