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ElectricBoogaloo

S04.E13: A Hell of a Week: Part Three

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On 2/11/2020 at 10:11 PM, bettername2come said:

Only one? I mean, Randall's at least gonna want to hold him while Kevin punches him.

Violence in this type of situation is counterproductive.  Plus it will only drive Kate closer to Mark.  In addition, having one brother hold the dude down while the other brother beats the crap out of him is about as cowardly as it gets when it comes to dudes fighting.

On 2/13/2020 at 3:14 AM, Blakeston said:

Did Rebecca really describe Kate as having empathy for everything?

In a family filled with self-centered people, Kate stands out as being one of the most self-obsessed and least empathetic.

Rebecca enabling it and feeding into it isn't helping Kate any. 

17 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Wow, it never ceases to amaze me how rude people can be. But I agree - that comment was all about your classmate’s issues (cloaked as “concern” for you). 

I have a female  relative who was teaching aerobics back in the day, and her former high school classmate signed up to take classes.   Then she walked up to my relative and told her that her boobs looked awful.  I don't know what led the conversation down that path.   All I know is that is all my relative remembers about that conversation. 

I know the woman.   She has a half a dozen kids.  All of them unbearable assholes that clearly got their shit attitude from their mother.

Edited by icemiser69
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14 hours ago, slasherboy said:

Somebody upthread (can't find it and am getting frustrated looking) suggested Kate might not connect going to the cabin with Mark possibly (probably) expecting sex.  She seems pretty naive about it.

If she doesn't view herself as being sexually attractive, maybe she doesn't believe anyone would have any interest in having sex with her.

13 hours ago, CrystalBlue said:

I don't think Kate and Gregory will have a full-on romp in the hay, but I believe she can become emotionally close to him because of his acceptance and enthusiasm over Baby Jack.

Gregory doesn't look like he is healthy enough for that type of relationship.  Perhaps in time he will be healthy enough.

11 hours ago, chabelisaywow said:

I'm in the minority and find the Kevin character - foolish.

Kevin is impulsive, just as Kate and Randall are.  In Kevin's case he thinks with his penis.

9 hours ago, debraran said:

We will see how they play it but I can't fathom no one loving teen Kate so the segue is hard.

Peer pressure.  Even if someone would like to date someone who is even slightly overweight, peer pressure in high school will put an end to that rather quickly.  Even after they have been out of high school for a year or so.  Those judgy classmates are still around, peer pressure still has its grip.  At least that is the way it was in the late 70s.   Granted times change.

 

 

 

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8 hours ago, Blakeston said:

i just can't buy that no one ever showed an interest in Kate in high school. She's adorable, has great taste in music, and seems reasonably socially adept. And when your twin is the most popular kid in school, and has a super-close sibling relationship with you, you're pretty likely to be popular by proximity.

Again it is a peer pressure thing.   I was in high school with twin girls.  One was far more popular than the other. 

Back in my high school days, looks were far more important than personality.  That shouldn't be the case, but in that environment that was the case.

I had a friend who was the most popular kid of his graduation class.  He graduated a year behind me.   None of that popularity rubbed off on me.

One would hope overtime things would change, but from the pictures I have seen from my high school reunion online(I would never attend one), the class pretty much lined up in the same old clicks.  Like ducks in a row.

8 hours ago, memememe76 said:

Sometimes, when you grow up with the same kids from elementary to high school, they still see you as a first grader. Maybe that was the case for Kate? I wonder what it’d be like for Kate if she went to school with Randall. 

During the grade school years, once a reputation is developed (deserved or not deserved) it is often impossible to get rid of it.  Some people just need to start fresh somewhere else.

3 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

But you can open the cabin and use it during the winter.

I think that would entirely depend on whether the cabin is insulated or not.   I wouldn't want to be opening up a cabin in the Winter/Early Spring months in Pennsylvania if it weren't insulated.

 

 

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12 hours ago, Blakeston said:

i just can't buy that no one ever showed an interest in Kate in high school. She's adorable, has great taste in music, and seems reasonably socially adept. And when your twin is the most popular kid in school, and has a super-close sibling relationship with you, you're pretty likely to be popular by proximity.

I can understand her feeling like she's in Kevin's shadow, and having insecurities about her attractiveness (so many beautiful people do, especially when they're teenagers). But the whole "no boy has ever wanted me" thing is very hard to believe.

I think the writers are constrained by the weights of the actresses playing Kate. They wanted Adult Kate's journey to involve weight loss, but they can't go in that direction until/if Chrissy loses weight. And Teen Kate looking the way she does makes it much harder to believe that she isn't getting a good deal of attention from boys.

I'm a year younger than my older brother.   He is 6'6 and played both basketball and football in high school and then football in college.   I went on zero dates in high school because I was known as Mongo's sister.  My high school was too small and too much overlap of guys I would date and guys who knew my brother.   I can see how Kate did not have that many options for dates in her high school.   It happens. 

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1 minute ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

My high school was too small and too much overlap of guys I would date and guys who knew my brother. 

Never would have occured to me, and, of course! that's how it might fall out...

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18 hours ago, smartymarty said:

I have much more compassion for Toby than others. It's entirely understandable to be upset that he doesn't have the child he expected. Obviously that can't go on forever, but geez, give the guy some time to come around to it, or have him to a therapist for help. He wants to love his son. Give him a chance. I hated Rebecca essentially suggesting DTMF to Kate. A loving couple would discuss this, not judge, and help each other. Kate's just trying to force how she feels now on Toby. That's not fair.

I'm pretty much with you here. It would be very hard to hear that he only feels sad when he looks at Jack, but Kate is coming down hard on some things with Toby. He is not anything like the original Toby she met-- perpetual horn dog, non-stop wisecracks, couldn't do enough for Kate. His personality is very blunted. It may be the depression that isn't fully treated/treatable, and he is working hard to just stay above water. His wanting to have Jack with him while Kate is gone is a good sign and I hope it leads to further progress. I could barely tolerate the original version of Toby, but this one, I have empathy for.

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It has been ten months since Jack was born. Is that not enough time to deal with the "disappointment"? If it were Kate, and not Toby, who was still holding on to these feelings, there would be a lot less sympathy for her. 

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53 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

I'm pretty much with you here. It would be very hard to hear that he only feels sad when he looks at Jack, but Kate is coming down hard on some things with Toby. He is not anything like the original Toby she met-- perpetual horn dog, non-stop wisecracks, couldn't do enough for Kate. His personality is very blunted. It may be the depression that isn't fully treated/treatable, and he is working hard to just stay above water. His wanting to have Jack with him while Kate is gone is a good sign and I hope it leads to further progress. I could barely tolerate the original version of Toby, but this one, I have empathy for.

I really hope that they do delve into the personal mental health reasons behind Toby's feelings about his son. There is a bit of a disconnect between him saying he makes him sad, and his actual behavior with Jack, which is always loving, encouraging... happy(ish?). Given that, and his obvious obsession with and passion for his new exercise/diet regime, it's not surprising that Kate felt somewhat blindsided by this revelation. So I (weirdly) hope it is related to his mental health (and treatable), opposed to him just being self-centered and disappointed that his kid can't share his hobbies in the manner he'd dreamed of.

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17 hours ago, chabelisaywow said:

I'm in the minority and find the Kevin character - foolish.  Randall was the one who noticed the forgetful behavior. (Sorry if I am wrong - but did Rebecca ask Randall not to say anything?) Rebecca told Kate herself. If this is the reason for Kevin getting mad at Randall (probably just years of bad blood. If he can't listen to reason - I will be irritated. That's just unnecessary drama. 

My only sister, and the last of my immediate family members, ( both parents and younger brother passed) was diagnosed with Leukemia and didn't tell me. She told some cousins and told them NOT to tell; me. She actually almost died from kidney issues  caused by the chemo. When she finally told me, it was months later in an angry email. 

Yes, he DOES have the right to be upset at not being told.

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40 minutes ago, Gabs66 said:

Yes, he DOES have the right to be upset at not being told.

Especially when it seems like it's going to be a rapid-onset thing (if she's already that disoriented by their upcoming birthday), he's going to miss out on perhaps her last few, good months.

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On 2/11/2020 at 11:53 PM, Ms Blue Jay said:

I've dated bad guys, though.  I relate to Kate in so many different ways.  I didn't think he was that out there, unfortunately.

Agreed, I thought he was pretty garden variety "older jackass who only dates very young girls with self esteem issues." These guys date the very young and the very vulnerable because older, more secure women will see them for what they are much faster. And everything about it rang true, including Kate excusing his shitty behavior and believing that her family just doesn't "get" him or doesn't understand him the way she does. Been there, done that. 

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At the start of the episode, Kate was totally unreasonable with Toby - both of them are coping in different ways with Jack's legal blindness. He's grieving (as any parent of a child with a disability does) and she is diving headfirst into research/advocacy to cope with her grief. Both of those are perfectly reasonable ways to deal with it.

I feel bad for both of them but agree that Toby isn't "wrong" for having the feelings he's having. It's an adjustment and honestly, I think it was a fairly big step that he even came out and admitted how he's feeling. Most people would feel guilty enough to try to pretend and never admit what they were actually feeling and you can't work past it if you won't admit it. Add in his struggles with depression, the issues Kate brings to the table, and now this new challenge with a disabled child and it's a lot.

Kate's such a familiar character in so many ways, she's the type who requires a lot of understanding from others, but isn't necessarily open to understanding other people. I have a family member like that, she's all "tell it like it is" when it's about somebody else, but when it's HER, she'll break down over any comment that isn't carefully enough worded to avoid any of her many, many, many sensitive areas. Her relationship with Rebecca is emblematic of this, she's quick to sling arrows at Rebecca, but any comment from Rebecca, however mild, sends her right to the edge. It's a very tricky personality to navigate.

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OMG are they kidding us??? They're gonna make us wait even longer to see what happens... 

I'll update more when I have calmed down. 

 

Yeah, this was my reaction too when the credits rolled. I've been so interested in whatever happened to Kate in this era and thought this episode was going to have more about the cabin.

Let me guess, the show will go on one of its random weeks-long breaks and we'll find out the rest of the story somewhere around April? 

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2 hours ago, memememe76 said:

It has been ten months since Jack was born. Is that not enough time to deal with the "disappointment"? If it were Kate, and not Toby, who was still holding on to these feelings, there would be a lot less sympathy for her. 

Apparently not enough time for him, yet. Tobe is more than disappointed, and he would probably be happy be rid of those feelings, they're unpleasant. I think they've shown that his depressive episodes go way back, even to childhood, wasn't it? (Or was it his mother, not sure?) He was wholly unprepared for a premature, special needs baby as most people would be, but he has on top of that possibly intractible depression. In the flash forward he does not look to be like his old self, either.

As to less sympathy for Kate, I have much sympathy for postpartum struggles, having had some, and with perfectly healthy babies. Kate has her hands more than full, and she acknowledged in her conversation with Rebecca that she may not be able to do some things with Jack by herself. Tough spot to be in, and now she will have to face her mother's decline. 

26 minutes ago, ljenkins782 said:

Kate's such a familiar character in so many ways, she's the type who requires a lot of understanding from others, but isn't necessarily open to understanding other people. I have a family member like that, she's all "tell it like it is" when it's about somebody else, but when it's HER, she'll break down over any comment that isn't carefully enough worded to avoid any of her many, many, many sensitive areas. Her relationship with Rebecca is emblematic of this, she's quick to sling arrows at Rebecca, but any comment from Rebecca, however mild, sends her right to the edge. It's a very tricky personality to navigate.

That's a good distillation of how Kate often comes across.

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Yes, he DOES have the right to be upset at not being told.

OK - but then why Randall and not Rebecca? It's like "don't kill the messenger" type thing. 

Rebecca told Kate - I don't know how this will play out how Kevin eventually finds out, but isn't it Rebecca's choice who and when to tell?

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20 minutes ago, chabelisaywow said:

OK - but then why Randall and not Rebecca? It's like "don't kill the messenger" type thing. 

Rebecca told Kate - I don't know how this will play out how Kevin eventually finds out, but isn't it Rebecca's choice who and when to tell?

If they play it out that way, I'm sure the argument will be that Rebecca wasn't in a position to decide and Randall should have told them anyway. I don't agree with that, but it's a way to go. However, it's so flimsy an argument, especially now that Kate knows, I can't see this being what the split is over.

I'm wondering now if it's a disagreement over possible treatment (or non-treatment) of her condition? And if it's not Rebecca related at all, how about whoever the baby-mama is? Maybe Randall didn't approve? Or maybe it's something Kevin and/or Kate did, and it's Randall who is angry at one or both of them?

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On 2/12/2020 at 6:59 AM, Cementhead said:

I'm trying to watch this right now but I am always so irrationally annoyed at all of the Bug and Katie Girl nonsense in the Kate episodes.  It's just so forced and over the top to me.  I'm only 20 minutes or so into the episode and Rebecca has called Kate Bug so many times already that I just stopped watching and came here to read about the episode instead.  Admittedly, I have a way of being annoyed by things like this for some odd reason, but on this show in particular, it drives me crazy.

I never loved that Rebecca called Kate "Bug", but really liked that they explained why in this episode.  The scene with a young Kate and the fireflies with Rebecca talking about how fleeting time is made me tear up a little.

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13 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

Rebecca has had people lining up to date her.

Has this ever been shown ?

Bad Boy Marc is so cliched...ho hum.  And teen Kate dresses like anyone else from that era.....think Claire Danes from My So Called Life. I don't think she's hiding her weight. She's not skinny but she's perfectly fine.

Where did Rebecca's Alzheimers go ? When Kate called her, she drove right over. She was fine during the retreat weekend. Then jump to the birthday party in August and she's back to memory loss.

Did it ever occur to Kate that she too could take up CrossFit? Why isn't Tobey encouraging her? They could alternate days and one could stay home with the baby. I wanted to shake them both....Kate could get some exercise and meet his new peeps....and Tobey could spend some bonding time with Jack. Geez.

Nobody in my family or in-law family ever cared who got info first, or in some order,  or after someone else, or directly, etc. Never dawned on me to care.

 

 

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7 hours ago, memememe76 said:

It has been ten months since Jack was born. Is that not enough time to deal with the "disappointment"? If it were Kate, and not Toby, who was still holding on to these feelings, there would be a lot less sympathy for her. 

Raising a child with special needs isn't something that you grasp the full scope of right away, though. He is going to be coming to terms with new realizations and new challenges as the child develops. He needs to deal with his feelings, but I don't know if 10 months is really as much time as some feel it is when you are dealing with a young child with disabilities. In many ways the blindness is becoming more real to him as Jack becomes less of a lump (as all newborns are) and more of an actual person.

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5 hours ago, drafan said:

 

Did it ever occur to Kate that she too could take up CrossFit? Why isn't Tobey encouraging her? They could alternate days and one could stay home with the baby. I wanted to shake them both....Kate could get some exercise and meet his new peeps....and Tobey could spend some bonding time with Jack. Geez.

I don't think anyone who is not overweight can realize what this kind of weight can do to your body. Have you consider the back problems Kate has? That her feet might be killing her after a little standing up or walking? There is an overweight actress in my country, not as big as Kate but big enough, she is the sweetest and funniest person and everyone loves her. She is now around 50 and she has said in interviews that the only reason she has tried in various times to lose weight is her back problems, she is fine with everything else. I think skinny or fit people don't realize it and they just say easily "why doesn't she just exercise?". Well sometimes even walking a little bit can be hard for people of this weight.

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10 hours ago, ljenkins782 said:

Kate's such a familiar character in so many ways, she's the type who requires a lot of understanding from others, but isn't necessarily open to understanding other people. I have a family member like that, she's all "tell it like it is" when it's about somebody else, but when it's HER, she'll break down over any comment that isn't carefully enough worded to avoid any of her many, many, many sensitive areas. Her relationship with Rebecca is emblematic of this, she's quick to sling arrows at Rebecca, but any comment from Rebecca, however mild, sends her right to the edge. It's a very tricky personality to navigate.

My mother calls it the insensitivity of sensitive people.

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Late teens Kate’s comment about Rebecca always having boys lining up to date her is odd since it appears she met Jack when she she was about Kate’s age.

When I read that Justin Hartley directed this episode I was hoping for an M Night twist at the end since Kevin had no problem telling M Night that his movie ending sucked. 

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18 minutes ago, Johnny Dollar said:

Late teens Kate’s comment about Rebecca always having boys lining up to date her is odd since it appears she met Jack when she she was about Kate’s age.

Kate was only 18 in that scene.  When Rebecca met Jack she was in her 20s and had already had one significant relationship before that.  We met her parental approved exboyfriend last season.  Rebecca was an adult living on her own* when she met Jack.

 

*I do think Rebecca's dad was financing her apartment so she could try to make it as a singer or until she met the "right" man to marry.

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23 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I'm a year younger than my older brother.   He is 6'6 and played both basketball and football in high school and then football in college.   I went on zero dates in high school because I was known as Mongo's sister.  My high school was too small and too much overlap of guys I would date and guys who knew my brother.   I can see how Kate did not have that many options for dates in her high school.   It happens. 

i think I'd understand it better if Kevin was a big, intimidating guy like that. Lord knows I'd be terrified to date the sister of a huge guy nicknamed "Mongo!" Also, I think people are reluctant to even view women in a romantic/sexual way if they associate them with someone extremely masculine and threatening. 

22 hours ago, memememe76 said:

It has been ten months since Jack was born. Is that not enough time to deal with the "disappointment"? If it were Kate, and not Toby, who was still holding on to these feelings, there would be a lot less sympathy for her. 

To be fair, it took some time after Jack's birth for anyone to realize that he was blind.

I don't begrudge Toby his sadness re: Jack's blindness. My issues with Toby are:

a) that his reaction to his sadness is to avoid his son as much as possible, and

b) his sadness never seems to be about how Jack's blindness will make Jack's life more difficult. It's primarily about the things Toby won't get to do with him.

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20 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

i think I'd understand it better if Kevin was a big, intimidating guy like that. Lord knows I'd be terrified to date the sister of a huge guy nicknamed "Mongo!" Also, I think people are reluctant to even view women in a romantic/sexual way if they associate them with someone extremely masculine and 

His nickname in high school was not Mongo, my school was not hip enough to associate anything with Blazing Saddles in the 90s.  His actual nickname is too close to our surname to use here.  I just pulled that one out because I will use it on him.  But, being the sister of a very visible jock does affect your dating prospects. 

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15 hours ago, drafan said:

Has this ever been shown ?

My memory is horrible, but IIRC Kate was talking about that with her mom in this episode.

I could easily imagine a lot of people wanting to go out with Rebecca.

That said, I don't recall seeing Rebecca with anyone other than Jack.   Then again, my memory is crap.

 

 

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12 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

My memory is horrible, but IIRC Kate was talking about that with her mom in this episode.

I could easily imagine a lot of people wanting to go out with Rebecca.

That said, I don't recall seeing Rebecca with anyone other than Jack.   Then again, my memory is crap.

I just googled quickly because I couldn't remember the details, but he's in the episode "Katie Girls" from Season 3. His name is Alan and he's Rebecca's high school sweetheart who wants to get back together. (Jane Kaczmarek plays his mother.)

On a side note, Peter Onorati was on Mom this week and I was struggling to place him the whole time. Finally looked it up and realized he plays Jack's father.

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16 hours ago, drafan said:

Did it ever occur to Kate that she too could take up CrossFit? Why isn't Tobey encouraging her? They could alternate days and one could stay home with the baby. I wanted to shake them both....Kate could get some exercise and meet his new peeps....and Tobey could spend some bonding time with Jack. Geez.

Kate would have to start out with something like water aerobics.  She would have to take it slow.  Now that she has been in a swimming pool with her mom, maybe she will be confident enough to at least try water aerobics.   People will talk, people will be jerks, she just has to ignore them and do the best she can.

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I know sometimes when a child has some sort of health issue, the mom is in MOM MODE and she feels she has to handle everything, do everything for the child.  I wonder if maybe Kate hasn't given Toby a chance to be a dad unless she is there watching Toby, telling him what to do.  Maybe Toby felt like if Kate is gone, he can get to know Jack without Kate telling him what he should be doing.  Most kids have a different relationship with their mom than with their dad. 

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2 hours ago, Blakeston said:

I don't begrudge Toby his sadness re: Jack's blindness. My issues with Toby are:

a) that his reaction to his sadness is to avoid his son as much as possible, and

b) his sadness never seems to be about how Jack's blindness will make Jack's life more difficult. It's primarily about the things Toby won't get to do with him.

THIS.

Everyone around her thinks Kate is fragile but in so many ways, she has stepped up. Rebecca sees her -- she can be both sensitive and strong. Like Kate isn't sad or scared right now? 

She was the one who held the practical parts of Kevin's life together in his Manny days, and is probably a huge reason why he still has a good chunk of his Manny money. When Kate was working on her weight after she and Toby met and he decided to jump off the wagon when it came to food, she drew her line in the sand. She stood by Toby through his heart attack. She put on her adult pants and got over her dog issues to bring Audio home for Toby. On her wedding day, she found the courage to scatter Jack's ashes so she could let go and move on, and also told Rebecca how much she admired her and wanted to be like her, helping them move forward in their relationship. She got Toby through the depression brought on because he stupidly and secretly stopped taking his meds. Since Baby Jack was born, she's carried the load of parenting and learning about raising a blind child while Toby was CrossFitting. She gave up much of her outside stuff like school and any singing gigs.

I liked how calm she was with Toby, and I think that came from Rebecca helping her to see her feelings are valid and that also she doesn't have to give in to despair. I don't think Toby is bad, but he has been self-centered, negative and secretive as has been his way in the past. Asking him to see past his own ish and engage in the family he has rather than wallow in losing what he wanted is not too much to expect.

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It's not entirely true that Kate has never had a boy like her. Earlier this season, in the Pool Party: Part Two, Kate thinks she is being set up to be with one boy, but she is set up with another. She admits to him that she thought he was going to be Cliff Ward and asks him who he thought she would be. And he said "You". Plus, there was the kid that 10-year old Kevin paid off with candy to hold her hand at the Haunted House (maybe she never found out). 

I think part of the reason than Kate hasn't had a lot of boyfriends because of her lack of confidence. She convinces herself that nobody is interested in her and ignores clues that they are.  

I think Toby spending the weekend with Jack will do a world of good. Kate has been the super-Mom defining everyone's relationship with Jack. Toby hasn't been allowed to have a moment of disappointment about Jack because Kate is being all positive. What kind of monster is he that he's disappointed when Kate is go-go-go? So, he's hidden his disappointment, grown to hate himself about it and never dealt with it. There are 7 stages of grief and he's firmly stuck in the earlier phases.  Kate nodded and moved straight to acceptance. Either she doesn't consider Jack's disability a thing to grieve about or she's just ignoring the grief (and may need come back to it later - kind of like Kevin after his Dad's death).

With Kate gone, Toby can interact with Jack in a way that is more natural to him (without Kate there to tell him he is doing it wrong) and they can form a bond. Without being rushed around "Holland" on the "correct route" he can amble and find the right path for Jack and himself. 

How will Kate react if Toby has developed a different bond and rituals with Jack by the time she returns? Jack is her everything right now and that isn't healthy at all.

It may seem that I'm blaming Kate for everything, but I'm not. Coming to terms with a disabled child can be incredibly hard as the divorce statistics show. She's come to terms with it one way, but I'm not sure it's entirely a good thing.  I like that she is taking time to go to the cabin with her brothers. She does need to take care of her own mental health as well. I was glad that her mother was able to give her attention and focus in this episode. Kate is worried about doing everything the "right way" for Jack and its very hard on oneself to always be perfect.

I don't think that Kevin/Randall riff is because Kevin finds out last. I think that Kevin has come to terms with Randall and Rebecca having a special relationship. He's had to move past that in order to heal. It is what it is.  It will be a testament to his progress toward maturity and self-acceptance if he just accepts that he is the last to find out. I just don't think that Rebecca and Kate would choose to spend the mutual birthday with Kevin and not Randall if that is why Kevin is mad. Rebecca is the one who asked Randall to hide it - she would not punish him for that.  I think there is more of a twist to it than that. I think it is Rebecca who does not want to see Randall for some reason.

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7 hours ago, Blakeston said:

I don't begrudge Toby his sadness re: Jack's blindness. My issues with Toby are:

a) that his reaction to his sadness is to avoid his son as much as possible, and

b) his sadness never seems to be about how Jack's blindness will make Jack's life more difficult. It's primarily about the things Toby won't get to do with him.

This! It's completely normal for Toby to be sad about Jack's condition and the things Jack will never get to experience. I don't even mind him researching potential cures - just because there isn't one today, doesn't mean there won't be one 5-10 years from now. But he also needs to push himself to work through his feelings and be there for Kate. He should have gone on that retreat, even if it made him uncomfortable. Skipping out at the last minute made it seem like he thinks supporting Kate in blindness-related activities is optional, and I can see how Kate felt let down by that. 

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On 2/11/2020 at 11:46 PM, chocolatine said:

I still think that "it" refers to bipolar disorder and/or suicide. Marc's behavior is too erratic for him to just be a garden variety jerk. Quitting his job on a whim and driving recklessly on the way to the cabin (putting himself in danger, not just Kate) are signs of that, IMO.

See, I don't personally believe that Mark willingly quit his job - I think that the manager fired him. From what we've seen, he certainly displays a number of concerning characteristics that would make him a less than ideal employee. And of course, he's not the type who could ever admit, even to his own girlfriend, that someone didn't want him - it has to be him that didn't want them, of course.

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On 2/14/2020 at 12:24 PM, memememe76 said:

It has been ten months since Jack was born. Is that not enough time to deal with the "disappointment"?

IMO part of it might be that Jack isn't really a "person" yet - by which I mean, of course he's human, but he doesn't really have a unique personality and whatnot. Once he's even a toddler, with his own thoughts, ideas, activities he enjoys, etc. Toby might finally better understand that blindness isn't nearly the tragedy he is currently imagining it is. Just like those older kids at the conference/retreat, Jack will surely do all the regular kid things, like riding a bike and swimming, even if he has to adapt them a little bit for his personal needs. Right now, Toby can't imagine any of that, and IMO that's the big issue.

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29 minutes ago, SnarkySheep said:

See, I don't personally believe that Mark willingly quit his job - I think that the manager fired him. From what we've seen, he certainly displays a number of concerning characteristics that would make him a less than ideal employee. And of course, he's not the type who could ever admit, even to his own girlfriend, that someone didn't want him - it has to be him that didn't want them, of course.

I think he quit because Kate 'showed him up' and he couldn't work with her, knowing she knew as much or more than him. So now he's going to do something much cooler, writing songs, etc. 

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 He should have gone on that retreat, even if it made him uncomfortable. Skipping out at the last minute made it seem like he thinks supporting Kate in blindness-related activities is optional, and I can see how Kate felt let down by that.


We don’t know for sure he would have skipped.  He was reluctantly packing and complaining about work when Rebecca called.  Kate told Rebecca that Toby couldn’t go, and he even said, “Kate” like he was going to argue before she shushed him.  Yes, he was relieved when Rebecca took his place, but I think he would have gone if Rebecca hasn’t offered.

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On 2/12/2020 at 2:18 PM, kicksave said:

Wait what? Kate is an adult in those scenes with Mark? I thought she was 16 or 17...the actress playing her doesn’t look 18 and they have dressed like she’s still in high school.

I think this episode is especially tricky for keeping up with the ages because they show both (young) adult Kevin and senior in high school Kevin in the same episode. So, the scene at Rebecca's with the three young adults intersecting & we see their unique perspectives over the course of the three episodes? That one is post high school, a year after the fire. They are barely adults. Kevin got married, Randall is a freshman in college, and Kate lives at home still. The flashback scenes with Good Will Hunting/the bonfire in the woods with Sophie & Kevin take place on Super Bowl Sunday during the kids' senior year of high school, the night Jack dies in the fire. So it's a pretty fine line between "kid" and "adult" that we are talking about and I think we're looking at like a year and some change difference in their ages. The actors are all the same as well, so that's probably also part of the confusion. 

 

Also, I dressed like I did in high school at least a few years into college. I'm exactly the big three's age, so I basically dressed like Kate. 

Edited by HollyGoLitely333 · Reason: Typo
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On 2/14/2020 at 3:22 PM, ljenkins782 said:

I feel bad for both of them but agree that Toby isn't "wrong" for having the feelings he's having. It's an adjustment and honestly, I think it was a fairly big step that he even came out and admitted how he's feeling. Most people would feel guilty enough to try to pretend and never admit what they were actually feeling and you can't work past it if you won't admit it. Add in his struggles with depression, the issues Kate brings to the table, and now this new challenge with a disabled child and it's a lot.

Yeah, both Kate and Toby need a buuuunch of therapy. Toby needs more than just medication for his depression - he needs a therapist.

On 2/14/2020 at 7:38 PM, Euphony said:

Raising a child with special needs isn't something that you grasp the full scope of right away, though. He is going to be coming to terms with new realizations and new challenges as the child develops. He needs to deal with his feelings, but I don't know if 10 months is really as much time as some feel it is when you are dealing with a young child with disabilities. In many ways the blindness is becoming more real to him as Jack becomes less of a lump (as all newborns are) and more of an actual person.

Yup - Jack is hitting milestones and is becoming more of a "real boy" every day, and it just keeps solidifying that Jack is blind. I bet him being able to see the lights threw Toby for a loop and gave him some false hope, too.

15 hours ago, Blakeston said:

To be fair, it took some time after Jack's birth for anyone to realize that he was blind.

I don't begrudge Toby his sadness re: Jack's blindness. My issues with Toby are:

a) that his reaction to his sadness is to avoid his son as much as possible, and

b) his sadness never seems to be about how Jack's blindness will make Jack's life more difficult. It's primarily about the things Toby won't get to do with him.

Didn't they only get final confirmation of the legal blindness at the start of the season?

With A, that be be attributed to Toby's (most likely) major depressive disorder, and B, he is still slowly grieving the loss of the child he expected

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3 hours ago, bros402 said:

Yeah, both Kate and Toby need a buuuunch of therapy. Toby needs more than just medication for his depression - he needs a therapist.

Yup - Jack is hitting milestones and is becoming more of a "real boy" every day, and it just keeps solidifying that Jack is blind. I bet him being able to see the lights threw Toby for a loop and gave him some false hope, too.

Didn't they only get final confirmation of the legal blindness at the start of the season?

With A, that be be attributed to Toby's (most likely) major depressive disorder, and B, he is still slowly grieving the loss of the child he expected

I feel therapy should have started at birth, I would have thought a professional would have suggested it for various reasons but maybe they said no. It's not unusual to grieve for what you thought would be your fantasy kid. Really no kid is a fantasy kid but parents think of things they might do together and bond and Toby was thrown along with his depression adding to it, by his diagnosis. The same happens to parents of other handicapped children. If Jack was deaf and not blind, he might have reacted differently but sharing things you see many take for granted. This will be their only child and is seems obvious that Jack grows up just fine and is secure. Toby and Kate had issues before the baby was born, this just added to it. I think this weekend alone will be telling but time and hopefully some help from other parents with the same issue will show a change with Toby. A suspect a big smile from Jack or reacting to him in some way will show Toby he is there for him, sight is one way but there are other ways of communicating.

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On 2/14/2020 at 4:59 PM, chabelisaywow said:

Rebecca told Kate - I don't know how this will play out how Kevin eventually finds out, but isn't it Rebecca's choice who and when to tell?

Yes, it is Rebecca's choice when and also who to tell. 

Rebecca has put Randall and Kate in a very awkward position.

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16 hours ago, HollyGoLitely333 said:

I think this episode is especially tricky for keeping up with the ages because they show both (young) adult Kevin and senior in high school Kevin in the same episode. So, the scene at Rebecca's with the three young adults intersecting & we see their unique perspectives over the course of the three episodes? That one is post high school, a year after the fire. They are barely adults. Kevin got married, Randall is a freshman in college, and Kate lives at home still. The flashback scenes with Good Will Hunting/the bonfire in the woods with Sophie & Kevin take place on Super Bowl Sunday during the kids' senior year of high school, the night Jack dies in the fire. So it's a pretty fine line between "kid" and "adult" that we are talking about and I think we're looking at like a year and some change difference in their ages. The actors are all the same as well, so that's probably also part of the confusion. 

 

Also, I dressed like I did in high school at least a few years into college. I'm exactly the big three's age, so I basically dressed like Kate. 

Nice to see someone is validating my confusion and it isn't just an 
"old fart" moment I was having. As for the Kate character...I know my daughter dressed differently after high school (thankfully)...the Kate character just doesn't look 18...more like 15. But, whatever...a point that's not worth haggling over.

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12 minutes ago, kicksave said:

As for the Kate character...I know my daughter dressed differently after high school (thankfully)...the Kate character just doesn't look 18...more like 15.

For all we know, that might be an intentional thing on the part of the show...a lot of Kate's issues basically stem from the fact that she's unable to get past a certain time/events in her life. As she was a teen at the time, that in turn means failing to mature in certain ways.

Also, IMO, teens tend to change their style, opinions, actions, etc. when they are surrounded by new ones, such as in college. I know I did! But as Kate didn't go, she is essentially not exposed to any real impetus for growth or change at this time.

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Just now, SnarkySheep said:

For all we know, that might be an intentional thing on the part of the show...a lot of Kate's issues basically stem from the fact that she's unable to get past a certain time/events in her life. As she was a teen at the time, that in turn means failing to mature in certain ways.

Also, IMO, teens tend to change their style, opinions, actions, etc. when they are surrounded by new ones, such as in college. I know I did! But as Kate didn't go, she is essentially not exposed to any real impetus for growth or change at this time.

Good point! Didn't think of that angle...

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14 hours ago, kicksave said:

Good point! Didn't think of that angle...

Yes, if Kate went to college, even close by, she would have probably been a different person. There would still be "mean girls" but she would see more than her high school, get feedback from professors and encouragement and maybe would have found a niche of her own.

How the writers make Kate go from the cabin to a very heavy waitress going out with a married guy and eating in front of her old house every year is just beyond sad.  (the only 20's clip I remember when she had bangs in earlier episodes)

I realize it was all planned out from the beginning but it makes me uncomfortable to think she stagnated so many years.  Seeing her and Rebecca talk now in a mature and comfortable way is encouraging. You can only go forward and I have to assume they will write it that she always refused any help.

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The way this trilogy played out makes it seem like the issues the Big Three have dealt with from adolescence through adulthood can all be traced to that fateful night when Rebecca took too much cough medicine and Jack couldn’t finish watching The Shining. Maybe the M Night twist ending to the whole series will be that Jack was an awful husband and father after all. 

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On 2/15/2020 at 1:08 PM, kili said:

I think Toby spending the weekend with Jack will do a world of good. Kate has been the super-Mom defining everyone's relationship with Jack. Toby hasn't been allowed to have a moment of disappointment about Jack because Kate is being all positive. What kind of monster is he that he's disappointed when Kate is go-go-go? So, he's hidden his disappointment, grown to hate himself about it and never dealt with it. There are 7 stages of grief and he's firmly stuck in the earlier phases.  Kate nodded and moved straight to acceptance. Either she doesn't consider Jack's disability a thing to grieve about or she's just ignoring the grief (and may need come back to it later - kind of like Kevin after his Dad's death).

She has been eating her grief.  We saw her eating post-partum when Toby had started working out, and no doubt she continued once Jack was diagnosed as blind.  That is her pattern, and she absolutely needs to start learning to address her feelings rather than eating to numb them. 

In the same way that it would be impossible for her to instantly stop eating her grief about Jack (or her father or her anger at her mother or...) just because someone tells her to, it is equally impossible for Toby to stop grieving for the life Jack will not have, and the difficulties Jack will have, just because Kate or anyone tells him to get over it.

 

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On 2/14/2020 at 7:34 PM, drafan said:

Has this ever been shown ?

Bad Boy Marc is so cliched...ho hum.  And teen Kate dresses like anyone else from that era.....think Claire Danes from My So Called Life. I don't think she's hiding her weight. She's not skinny but she's perfectly fine.

Where did Rebecca's Alzheimers go ? When Kate called her, she drove right over. She was fine during the retreat weekend. Then jump to the birthday party in August and she's back to memory loss.

Did it ever occur to Kate that she too could take up CrossFit? Why isn't Tobey encouraging her? They could alternate days and one could stay home with the baby. I wanted to shake them both....Kate could get some exercise and meet his new peeps....and Tobey could spend some bonding time with Jack. Geez.

Nobody in my family or in-law family ever cared who got info first, or in some order,  or after someone else, or directly, etc. Never dawned on me to care.

 

 

I agree.  Fighting over who  got the bad news first?  Odd.  To me that's just contrived writing.

  I also agree about Kate being able to take her turn working out, but, I don't think that would be too easy for her.  Most people her size that i see on tv, say they feel uncomfortable in the gym,  People stare and you are made to feel awkward, I guess. Plus, a trainer is likely to discuss nutrition and health and I don't think that's going to work for Kate.

Honestly, I find the script rather absurd when they are arguing over minor things, throwing birthday party, taking retreats, etc.  when Kate's health looks extremely precarious.  I guess the show is just ignoring that, but, I find it preposterous that it's not a big deal for Toby and her other family members.  In her scenes, it's really all I can think about.  So, when Toby provides a reason that it's Jack's condition he stays away, I don't believe it.  I believe it's Kate's condition. 

Edited by SunnyBeBe
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On 2/15/2020 at 4:30 PM, SnarkySheep said:

See, I don't personally believe that Mark willingly quit his job - I think that the manager fired him. From what we've seen, he certainly displays a number of concerning characteristics that would make him a less than ideal employee. And of course, he's not the type who could ever admit, even to his own girlfriend, that someone didn't want him - it has to be him that didn't want them, of course.

YES!  I am just catching up on the episodes and came here to post my thoughts exactly that!  And it's hell being a parent when your child is in a relationship with someone like this - you can't stand the guy but you don't want to alienate your daughter either.  Some fine eggshells to walk on.

I'm also questioning if Toby really had a project or was that an excuse to not go to the retreat?  In Randall's episode, he and Beth plan time to talk later.  But with Kate/Toby, it seems Kate pounces on him right as one of them walks in the door.  

Now, to see what happens at the cabin....

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17 minutes ago, roughing it said:

I'm also questioning if Toby really had a project or was that an excuse to not go to the retreat? 

I think he did have a work project.  He was getting calls and texts about it, plus he was not at home when Kevin went there and found Madison (who Kate set up to care for Audio).  I mean, sure, Toby could have been off surfing or something, but all signs pointed to him having actual work to do at his actual job which is the only one paying for that house and Jack's health insurance.

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8 hours ago, izabella said:

I think he did have a work project.  He was getting calls and texts about it, plus he was not at home when Kevin went there and found Madison (who Kate set up to care for Audio).  I mean, sure, Toby could have been off surfing or something, but all signs pointed to him having actual work to do at his actual job which is the only one paying for that house and Jack's health insurance.

I agree that he had work to do, unless it was CrossFit Bitch texting with a different screen name!  😄

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On 2/26/2020 at 2:30 PM, izabella said:

I think he did have a work project.  He was getting calls and texts about it, plus he was not at home when Kevin went there and found Madison (who Kate set up to care for Audio).  I mean, sure, Toby could have been off surfing or something, but all signs pointed to him having actual work to do at his actual job which is the only one paying for that house and Jack's health insurance.

Yeah, I thought it was really odd of Kate to gift him an already booked vacation without checking if he could take the time off. It's one thing to surprise someone with a trip and schedule / book it together, vs. just "here's a vacation, we're leaving tomorrow."

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