S06.E02: Ex-Factor

[Otter]

17 hours ago, gingerella said:

@Otter, I’m not sure I understand your post so if I’ve misunderstood, Apologies in advance. I took your comments to mean that unchecked anxiety and depression makes someone into a “Me first” self centered, self obsessed person. I don’t think that’s true at all. I’ve also known people who are bi polar who are not me centric so I don’t know why that psychiatrist said that. I think if one is diagnosed with a personality disorder, like narcissism, that comment would indeed be truer, but not for anxiety and depression. Comments like that - not yours, the psychiatrist’s - seems like the sort of mentality that has caused society to not talk about mental health issues openly. Thankfully that’s mentality is changing now.

As for Jazz’s anxiety and depression, she probably would benefit greatly from talk therapy and some combo of anxiety and depression meds,  it that will never happen, sadly.

Hi Gingerella, all I can relate is what my mom's doc told me answering a question.  Her bipolar wasn't a part of her "me, me, me", but it was a part of her depression/anxiety.  It seems to be a genetic trait in my family and I've fallen into it.  I'm no doctor, all I wanted to say is that I recognize the behavior, no matter the age of the sufferer.  

Jazz doesn't seem to be interested in talk therapy.  I do hope she gets some help,  It's a very painful disease.

This is an interesting article and what the MD alluded to.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/evolution-the-self/201608/self-absorption-the-root-all-psychological-evil

  

[Dobian]

Dad: "I hope we get picked up for another season to pay for this surgery"

Bowers and Ting: "Yay,, more surgeries and free publicity!"

Bowers sounded pretty enthusiastic selling another surgery to Jazz and mom.

Edited February 7, 2020 by Dobian

[readheaded]

On 2/5/2020 at 1:14 AM, PupCal said:

I can't believe Jazz got into either Harvard or Pomona tbh. Both schools have a ridic low acceptance rate and require a 4.0 or above. Also, as an aside, a small liberal arts college may not be as nice as a huge school wrt trans stuff. I guarantee you Harvard has an LGBTQ student org.

Most colleges and many high schools do.

[readheaded]

On 2/5/2020 at 2:43 AM, Joan of Argh said:

I wish I could "LIKE" your post a million times.

This is what happens when you indulge a child and give them everything they ask for.... Most times they don't appreciate it.."easy come, easy go" 

When you have to work for something you usually appreciate it AND look after it.

Jazz doesn't appreciate anything and she doesn't look after anything.... We can thank Janette for that.

 

 

 

 

I like Greg, but am not willing to let him off the hook and give Jeanette all the blame.

[Joan of Argh]

18 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I’m not sure what she did in this episode that was so selfish.

Just my opinion but when people practically turn their lives upside down to support you and provide the finances to pay for your surgeries then nurse you and do everything they possibly can to help you and all they expect in return is for you to keep up with the dilation so they don't have to worry about it growing shut and needing more surgeries etc etc...l think it's selfish.

Greg and Jeanette obviously worry about her and have a lot on their plate supporting her emotionally and financially it might be nice if Jazz could do this one thing to help relieve some of the stress.... Greg looks exhausted lately and Jeanette doesn't look much better.

Oh wait... That would mean Jazz taking someone else's wants and needs into consideration for a change. 🙄

In my book she's almost the epitome of selfishness.

[Dobian]

On 2/4/2020 at 10:14 PM, PupCal said:

I can't believe Jazz got into either Harvard or Pomona tbh. Both schools have a ridic low acceptance rate and require a 4.0 or above. Also, as an aside, a small liberal arts college may not be as nice as a huge school wrt trans stuff. I guarantee you Harvard has an LGBTQ student org.

Well she mentioned she was 4.0, and obviously all she had to do to put herself over the top was to write, "I'm Jazz, I have a book, and my own reality show."

[gingerella]

52 minutes ago, Dobian said:

Well she mentioned she was 4.0, and obviously all she had to do to put herself over the top was to write, "I'm Jazz, I have a book, and my own reality show."

If anyone watched her show in total, they’d see what most of us see and I don’t think it would help her much.

[Zuleikha]

Greg and Jeanette obviously worry about her and have a lot on their plate supporting her emotionally and financially it might be nice if Jazz could do this one thing to help relieve some of the stress

I think they would do both themselves and Jazz a world of good by doing less for her and giving her more space to be responsible for her body and her life.

Jazz was presented as the poster child for the effectiveness of early medical transition, but sadly, she's becoming more of a cautionary tale. I hope that with some time, this will all be a blip in the road and she'll be a happy, healthy adult who is at peace with her body.

But right now, it seems like Jazz would have benefited from a different kind of psychological support and probably less blind affirmation from Jeanette about the surgery. Jazz had unrealistic expectations--which is fine because she's still a child! However, Jeanette reinforced those expectations instead of helping Jazz face the reality of what medical techniques can currently do and guide her to making truly informed choices. Part of Jazz's inconsistency with dilation is probably because there's a whole underlying stew of betrayal and resentment.

 

[Twopper]

8 hours ago, gingerella said:

If anyone watched her show in total, they’d see what most of us see and I don’t think it would help her much.

It would probably be the book and her activism that got her into Harvard along with her test scores and grades rather than the tv show.  Maybe like the admission of David Hogg who also took a gap year.  

Note to Jeanette:  a face lift will not help you unless you do a more  complete make-over.  Too bad WNTW is off the air or the make-over show that had people stand in a glass closet while people guessed their age.  She dresses like she is a decade or two younger, her hair is a mess, and her eye make up is usually too bright.  The few times we have seen Ari, I thought she looked good, but Jazz seems to share her mother's bad taste in clothing.   That is all;  I am shallow.

[gingerella]

2 hours ago, Twopper said:

It would probably be the book and her activism that got her into Harvard along with her test scores and grades rather than the tv show.  Maybe like the admission of David Hogg who also took a gap year.  

Note to Jeanette:  a face lift will not help you unless you do a more  complete make-over.  Too bad WNTW is off the air or the make-over show that had people stand in a glass closet while people guessed their age.  She dresses like she is a decade or two younger, her hair is a mess, and her eye make up is usually too bright.  The few times we have seen Ari, I thought she looked good, but Jazz seems to share her mother's bad taste in clothing.   That is all;  I am shallow.

I don't think David Hogg is even remotely similar to Jazz on any level. He IS an activist and he actually DOES things other than sit in his room or car bi ge eating.

[Fostersmom]

She had another surgery. This time, cosmetic. As I said in this thread, Sander really seems too invested with her life. He's always there with repeated comments to her. It's really getting to seem unhealthy on his part. 

 

[ClareWalks]

1 hour ago, Fostersmom said:

She had another surgery. This time, cosmetic.

Wait, I thought this was her third surgery. I am so confused. She had the first one, then another one to correct it, then in this last couple episodes she had her third, right? Has Jazz lost count?!

[Sew Sumi]

I think she's back-posting in "show time."

[msrachelj]

2 hours ago, Fostersmom said:

She had another surgery. This time, cosmetic. As I said in this thread, Sander really seems too invested with her life. He's always there with repeated comments to her. It's really getting to seem unhealthy on his part. 

 

Cosmetic!! Is anyone really that interested in the way your VAGINA looks!?😳 whoever she dates is going to know she is trans and not going to look exactly as a natural born woman does . If she thinks  she needs to have a “beautiful” vagina to be a woman or to attract a man or woman she better get back Into therapy.  Is she in therapy ? She should be. 
She’s very immature,  has ridiculous visions of what should be  & shouldn’t be, is very entitled etc. And needs some help with that.  Never mind her wacko family. Her mother moving in to get a better and closer look at her clit almost made me puke!

 

[kicotan]

2 hours ago, msrachelj said:

She’s very immature,  has ridiculous visions of what should be  & shouldn’t be, is very entitled etc.

Indeed.

The effects of puberty blockers caused a significant physical issue when surgery came into play in the form of a lack of usable tissue.

They never address the effects that puberty blockers have/could have on the psychological and emotional growth that typically occurs through the natural puberty process.  I believe her mental issues are either based upon or at the very least, exacerbated by the chemically stunted growth, similar to the stunted physical growth.

I think it would be awesome if her parents and doctors and friends and family members encouraged her to go to counseling, instead of just focusing solely on pursuing surgeries to create the ideal vulva/vagina.

[Caracoa1]

Are Greg and Jeanette planning on financially supporting Jazz and her need for plastic surgery, for the rest of her life?  There is no such thing as the "perfect vagina".  She has serious issues and needs to see a therapist... It's time to grow up...I do feel for her but unfortunately life is not fair and she has to get through it the same as everyone else.

 

[Fostersmom]

19 hours ago, ClareWalks said:

Wait, I thought this was her third surgery. I am so confused. She had the first one, then another one to correct it, then in this last couple episodes she had her third, right? Has Jazz lost count?!

The only thing I can figure is she doesn't consider the second a separate surgery since she  was still basically in the hospital from the first? The hospital just happened to be a hotel room. Seeing as everything collapsed or fell apart, or however they were describing it, I would almost consider that the same surgery seeing as the first time around they crapped it up so badly that she obviously couldn't even be sent home without it. The one we saw last week was a correction, but wasn't life or death like the repair we saw last season. Was everything picture perfect? No. But could she have physically lived without it? Yes. 

[gingerella]

3 hours ago, Fostersmom said:

The only thing I can figure is she doesn't consider the second a separate surgery since she  was still basically in the hospital from the first? The hospital just happened to be a hotel room. Seeing as everything collapsed or fell apart, or however they were describing it, I would almost consider that the same surgery seeing as the first time around they crapped it up so badly that she obviously couldn't even be sent home without it. The one we saw last week was a correction, but wasn't life or death like the repair we saw last season. Was everything picture perfect? No. But could she have physically lived without it? Yes. 

There have been THREE surgeries that we are aware of at this point. The first, the urgent second one, and the third one is what we just saw on the show last week. I wouldn't classify that as solely cosmetic, there were apparently misplaced and/or missing parts, as well as scar tissue in the way of things, so it was what I would call 'corrective' surgery. They mentioned last week after the third surgery that she might need to fourth and that one sounded more like cosmetic to make things look nicer.

I just looked at that IG post and she's saying it was cosmetic but I thought during the epi it was presented as corrective, no?

Edited February 9, 2020 by gingerella

[possibilities]

People get nose jobs, face lifts, tummy tucks, and boob jobs all the time. It's not something I would do (and I do have a physical issue that doctors have told me they've never seen anything like it and it IS something I've been expected to hide or "fix"), but we live in a culture that thinks it's perfectly reasonable and normal to do these kinds of surgeries.

So, since none of us have actually seen up close what Jazz is considering in need of correction, I have a hard time understanding why it's not considered reasonable for her to also avail herself of these kinds of fixes.

It's possible she's obsessing over nothing. But we don't know, do we? I mean... I haven't seen the most recent episode that just aired, but based on past episodes, they have never actually shown us her genitals, pre or post op.

I do wish the show would focus on other things than the surgeries. Trans people have a lot more to them than just genitalia. They used to talk more about other things, like when she was younger and the schools were resisting her participation in sports or access to the bathroom, or when they talked about the stress of having to disclose before she went to a sleepover party.

When they have interviewed other trans people and talked about their lives and shown a variety of personalities and experiences, I've thought the show was more interesting than where it's been going in more recent times, portraying mostly just Jazz, and mostly just her struggles with surgery, anxiety, depression, food, and not wanting therapy. It makes HER less interesting and it makes the SHOW less interesting as well.

[kicotan]

On 2/9/2020 at 12:37 PM, possibilities said:

When they have interviewed other trans people and talked about their lives and shown a variety of personalities and experiences, I've thought the show was more interesting than where it's been going in more recent times, portraying mostly just Jazz, and mostly just her struggles with surgery, anxiety, depression, food, and not wanting therapy. It makes HER less interesting and it makes the SHOW less interesting as well.

Amen.

I hope that when Jazz, et al, run their course and move on to a more private life TLC produces a new show someday that involves a trans person who shuns gender conformation and feminization/masculization surgery & doesn’t give a whit about “presenting” as a stereotypical female/male with hair did, eyebrows threaded, full face make-up, bicep measurements, foundation garments, acrylic mani/pedi, manscaping, high heels, etc.  One that celebrates  being born the way they were born and doesn’t strive to just spend $ “correcting “ their presentation , based on sociological gender stereotypes.

I know, it would be a major loss of revenues for the HBA, Doctors like Bowers and Ting and the general cosmetic surgery industries but one can dream, que no?

Edited February 11, 2020 by kicotan
Forgot some stuff

[fonfereksglen]

10 minutes ago, kicotan said:

Amen.

I hope that when Jazz, et al, run their course and move on to a more private life TLC produces a new show someday that involves a trans person who shuns gender conformation and feminization/masculization surgery & doesn’t give a whit about “presenting” as a stereotypical female/male with hair did, eyebrows threaded, full face make-up, bicep measurements, foundation garments, acrylic mani/pedi, manscaping, high heels, etc.  One that celebrates  being born the way they were born and doesn’t strive to just spend $ “correcting “ their presentation , based on sociological gender stereotypes.

I know, it would be a major loss of revenues for the HBA, Doctors like Bowers and Ting and the general cosmetic surgery industries but one can dream, que no?

That type of individual has always existed successfully.   Most do not need to advertise their success.  Just saying......

[kicotan]

55 minutes ago, fonfereksglen said:

That type of individual has always existed successfully.   Most do not need to advertise their success.  Just saying......

I appreciate that, wholeheartedly.

I just wish that social acceptance wasn’t so focused on “passing”, personal/individual self- acceptance wasn’t ever focused on sociologically conditioned male/female stereotypes and tv shows that are at least somewhat aiming to open up folks closed minds didn’t feed into either.

Just saying...

Edited February 11, 2020 by kicotan
Clarity

[gingerella]

14 hours ago, kicotan said:

I appreciate that, wholeheartedly.

I just wish that social acceptance wasn’t so focused on “passing”, personal/individual self- acceptance wasn’t ever focused on sociologically conditioned male/female stereotypes and tv shows that are at least somewhat aiming to open up folks closed minds didn’t feed into either.

Just saying...

While I understand your sentiments, I think that IF I was transgender and felt I was in the wrong body, I'd probably want to see my body as I think it should have always been, in the gender I wasn't born with. So I get why a physical transition is so important to so many people. That said, it's not the only way to live as a transgender person and I'd be interested in hearing the story of people who, for whatever reason - be it financial or they just don't care - chose not to have SRS. I remember some of the really horrific stories on I am Cait (god I loathe that narcissistic idiot), and IIRC there were ladies who could not afford SRS and those who took a chance on cheaper 'what they could afford' doctors and ended up with disfiguring results. It was heartbreaking. Which is why I find Jazz's entitlement and her "American's Top Vagina" mantra so off-putting.

[iwasish]

On 2/9/2020 at 3:37 PM, possibilities said:

People get nose jobs, face lifts, tummy tucks, and boob jobs all the time. It's not something I would do (and I do have a physical issue that doctors have told me they've never seen anything like it and it IS something I've been expected to hide or "fix"), but we live in a culture that thinks it's perfectly reasonable and normal to do these kinds of surgeries.

So, since none of us have actually seen up close what Jazz is considering in need of correction, I have a hard time understanding why it's not considered reasonable for her to also avail herself of these kinds of fixes.

It's possible she's obsessing over nothing. But we don't know, do we? I mean... I haven't seen the most recent episode that just aired, but based on past episodes, they have never actually shown us her genitals, pre or post op.

I do wish the show would focus on other things than the surgeries. Trans people have a lot more to them than just genitalia. They used to talk more about other things, like when she was younger and the schools were resisting her participation in sports or access to the bathroom, or when they talked about the stress of having to disclose before she went to a sleepover party.

When they have interviewed other trans people and talked about their lives and shown a variety of personalities and experiences, I've thought the show was more interesting than where it's been going in more recent times, portraying mostly just Jazz, and mostly just her struggles with surgery, anxiety, depression, food, and not wanting therapy. It makes HER less interesting and it makes the SHOW less interesting as well.

But the show is centered around her genitalia  because she and her mom have made It the center of their lives. Everything else is a distant second to her genitalia. 

[galaxychaser]

On 2/4/2020 at 1:13 PM, Kid said:

So, her mother is going to do her dilation for her if she doesn’t do it? Does that woman think before she talks????

Might as well. Jazz isn’t going to do it lol.

[all4mom2]

On 2/5/2020 at 12:47 PM, SunnyBeBe said:

I recall that I used to see this one kid, then teen, then adult on a TLC reality show and he was very spoiled, coddled and doted on by his mother. I thought that he would NEVER mature,  but, he did.  He did a complete turnaround, got married and now has kids and a family.  Total shocker to me, so, maybe, Jazz will come around.  I think she can.  Some people are slow to launch. 

 

.......................oh, that kid that did the turn around was none other than Zach Roloff.  

Zach barely graduated high school, dropped out of what few college courses he took, apparently can't do anything without his mommy and/or wife showing him how or doing it for him, and still doesn't have a real j-o-b, so not exactly a steller example of an indulged, lazy child maturing into a productive, competent adult.

[all4mom2]

On 2/5/2020 at 4:59 PM, bichonblitz said:

Isn't the lack of tissue due to the fact that that Jeanette and Greg started putting Jazz on hormone blockers at the age of 5? They were wrong to do that. She wouldn't be having this many problems if they didn't start her so young. There wasn't enough time for her to develop any tissue or much of a penis for that matter. I believe the Dr. said that in previous season's. It all goes back to wanting to make Jazz happy, regardless if her adult parents knew better. Shame on Jeanette and Greg.  

Age 11, I believe (there would be no need to block, at age 5, a puberty that wasn't going to happen for at least another 6 years).  Five is when they first allowed her to dress and present to the world as a girl by letting her wear a sparkly one-piece at her pool birthday party.

[all4mom2]

On 2/5/2020 at 5:06 PM, PrincessPurrsALot said:

Doctors recommended she stop the hormone blockers to let her penis and scrotum develop; she chose not to.  They also recommended tissue expanders which she refused.  

They, including I think Bowers, also offered the option of topical testosterone applied JUST to the genitals to "grow" them and achieve more tissue to work with but, again, even that comproise suggestion was shot down.

[all4mom2]

On 2/8/2020 at 12:36 PM, ClareWalks said:

Wait, I thought this was her third surgery. I am so confused. She had the first one, then another one to correct it, then in this last couple episodes she had her third, right? Has Jazz lost count?!

The proposed fourth surgery is to correct her pee stream direction, which is currently horizontal rather than vertical, which is not good.  Ting (who also removed painful stitches that had been left in for HOW long?) recommended it, saying it was a common problem and easily corrected; Bowers, sensing I think that Greg was on the verge of suing her, opined that it MAY be due to just still-swollen tissue and MAY correct itself, advising them to wait another 6 months to a year to see if it would, which placated all three of the family, who didn't want another recovery period interfering with college (to which she didn't go anyway).

[all4mom2]

On 2/7/2020 at 5:29 AM, readheaded said:

I like Greg, but am not willing to let him off the hook and give Jeanette all the blame.

Greg clearly lives by the motto: "happy wife, happy life."

[readheaded]

43 minutes ago, all4mom2 said:

Greg clearly lives by the motto: "happy wife, happy life."

As is his option, but nobody’s forcing him to choose that, so he owns his part of the blame. 

Edited October 9, 2021 by readheaded

[all4mom2]

2 hours ago, readheaded said:

As is his option, but nobody’s forcing him to choose that, so he owns his part of the blame. 

Of course!