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S08.E10: Fadeout


scarynikki12
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This has got to be the saddest goddamn ending I could have possibly envisioned for this show. I can't believe I stuck around this for 8 years so that I could watch Oliver's "Mission" succeed through mumbo jumbo magic while he and Felicity get stuck in some imaginary bubble universe away from everyone they cared about. 

As well as being Arrow's Regina, Laurel is literally this show. She died several years ago and we were all glad but somehow she's still around, pretending to not be a showy platinum doppelgänger of something we cared about for two seconds but disappeared a long time ago. 

RIP Arrow. Again. 

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59 minutes ago, Trisha said:

Oh I completely agree. But knowing that MG and SA were so adamant that dying was the logical conclusion to his journey, I'm glad they figured out a way to get their cherished death scene(s) while still giving him a happy-ish ending. As much as I'd love to see Oliver raise his kids and live a happy, normal life, Arrow always leans into darkness and angst so this is a surprisingly optimistic, swoon-y ending (in my opinion, anyway). 

I still say you can be dark and angsty and still live happily ever after! All the DARK, ANGSTY, TORTURED heroes in all my Anne Stuart books are, and she is OH SO MUCH more talented at writing than some of the writers on this show. *sniff*

What?

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Apparently I still have more because I'm just so angry that THIS character gets deified when that's literally the last thing either he or his fans wanted. All he wanted was to retire somewhere with his family and cook omelettes. Not give birth to a new universe where crime miraculously disappears and people worship him. This is the exact opposite of a happy ending and it's the exact antithesis of who this character was or what this show was about. Like Oliver himself, Arrow really was sacrificed on the altar of a franchise; his death giving birth to something bigger than himself but only by losing everything he ever wanted or was supposed to be. 

I hate it.

I'm so glad it's over.

I'm so glad I'm free.

Farewell Arrowverse or whatever your creators are calling you now. I will miss you for some weird reason. I will miss what you should have been. 

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From EW's latest interview with MG...

Quote

Was the final scene of the show in inspired by how the Crisis on Infinite Earths comic ended, with Superboy, Alexander Luthor, and Earth-2 Superman and Lois Lane going off to live in a paradise dimension?
You know, probably subconsciously, yes. Because back in June I was rereading Crisis for the umpteenth time, so it was probably definitely milling about in my subconscious, because like I said, that scene literally came out of my subconscious. I meditate every morning, but I never come out of meditation with an idea or a scene or anything. This is the first and last time that’s ever happened to me. So I think a lot of things were roiling around in my head that particular morning.

Edited by tv echo
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2 hours ago, Starfish35 said:

I was so disappointed about that!  I was expecting Talia to say “we’ve met”, when Nyssa introduced them, and then she didn’t! 🤦🏻‍♀️  Oh well.  I guess it was expecting a lot to expect the Arrow writers to remember Legends’ first season when even the Legends writers seem to try their hardest to forget it. 😂🤣

I was waiting for that. That was actually one of the better plotlines of S1 LOT, it explained why RAG let her in in the first place (2009 version) and Sara set up her own rescue by Nyssa. Oh Well. 

I've mostly been expecting Paradise Dimension since last season finale, so whilst I would have been very happy with a change, I'm content with the end. It's just so weird about everyone being alive when there deaths had almost as much impact on Oliver as Robert's. And no real time or exploration of it just made it hollow "producerservice" Oh Well, I'm going to need some really long detailed fic to process it.

I figured they weren't going full on Nolan verse or other Oliver fakeout when they filmed a massive guest star filled funeral and Sara got to mourn Oliver for an episode of COIE AND LOT. I assume Olicity can find something fulfilling to do forever in Eternal Star City and that it's open for SA at least to do guest spots. And I assume Felicity spent 20 fulfilling years navigating living in the mansion with her MIL, refereeing Moira v Donna, ST and the obviously kids. Her need to go right then is less obvious in the rebooted crime free timeline but spin off can't have Mama around but stuck in Mandyville forever. 

Thea and Roy got another happy ending. I assumed they would if they showed up in an episode together again but was touch and go there since a nice S6 ending. 

I guess if they hadn't gone Cosmic then Oliver would have died with no afterlife/paradise dimension. Or maybe they would have done TDKR instead of full on Endgame. Kind of a metaphor for the entire Arrowverse that was developed when the Nolanverse was the most amazing, awesomest take on Superhero movies forever but by the time it had actually premiered in October 2012, Avengers had completely destroyed that rule book, enter The Flash etc. 

Edited by Featherhat
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17 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

So, am I understanding Diggle's final scene, correctly?  Is he actually going to end up becoming a Lantern?!!

Elseworlds already confirmed that he is John Stewart's Earth-1 Doppelganger, so yes. 

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2 hours ago, Trisha said:

Oh I completely agree. But knowing that MG and SA were so adamant that dying was the logical conclusion to his journey, I'm glad they figured out a way to get their cherished death scene(s) while still giving him a happy-ish ending. As much as I'd love to see Oliver raise his kids and live a happy, normal life, Arrow always leans into darkness and angst so this is a surprisingly optimistic, swoon-y ending (in my opinion, anyway). 

You nailed it with swoon worthy. For me it was a very romantic ending. I said before that MG writes great fluff and I found the final Olicity scene very much in line with MG's love of giant sweeping romantic gestures when it comes to Olicity.

I loved that after being a hero and ultimately sacrificing for the universe, Oliver ended up in this place where he was just free to fixate on Felicity and indulge in that. They were always on the brink of a crisis when they lived a mortal life. The world was always ending, he always had to sacrifice.

Finally his burdens have been released and he's just got her all to himself for eternity.

 

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8 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

I loved that after being a hero and ultimately sacrificing for the universe, Oliver ended up in this place where he was just free to fixate on Felicity and indulge in that.

But it's not real. And none of his friends and other family are there. They don't get to grow old or watch their children grow up or be a part of any of their friends' lives. This Matrix nightmare of eternal sameness is... horrible. It's horrible.

 

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6 minutes ago, AudienceofOne said:

But it's not real. And none of his friends and other family are there. They don't get to grow old or watch their children grow up or be a part of any of their friends' lives. This Matrix nightmare of eternal sameness is... horrible. It's horrible.

 

I don't think we know enough about it to know what it's like where they are.

I TOTALLY understand why people hate the ending and I'm certainly not saying anyone needs to like it.

But as someone who intends to carry my husband's ashes around if he ever died young (like in a nice urn in my handbag) I would love eternal sameness with him forever and ever. It beats ashes in an urn. But again I am a weirdo! 

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11 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

But again I am a weirdo!

I don't know, maybe I am. I'm one who found the Eternal Library Matrix ending for River in Doctor Who to be a horrible nightmare too. Sure it might be good for a hundred years or so but what then? You can NEVER LEAVE.

I'm all for the Good Place and its "heaven needs an exit sign" philosophy.

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3 minutes ago, AudienceofOne said:

I don't know, maybe I am. I'm one who found the Eternal Library Matrix ending for River in Doctor Who to be a horrible nightmare too. Sure it might be good for a hundred years or so but what then? You can NEVER LEAVE.

I'm all for the Good Place and its "heaven needs an exit sign" philosophy.

No you're not weird!

Seriously though I think depending on how life plays out for each person we're all going to be accepting of different things. 

I am big on forever and ever and ever and ever, over and over and over again. It is comforting and secure if it never ends. But that's just me and my life choices so I can certainly see why someone would think it's awful and nuts! 

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8 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

I don't think we know enough about it to know what it's like where they are.

Agreed. I like to think that because the last line in the script talked about "possibility" that O/F might have a similar life with their loved ones in whatever dimension this is. Maybe the office scene was just him greeting her before taking her out to show her the world.

It's not the ending that I wanted for Oliver - I wanted nothing more than for him to come home to his wife and kids and get to spend the rest of his life with them, but since I apparently never had even a sliver of a chance of getting that, this is satisfying for me. The only alternative to it was Oliver dying and staying dead with no hope of anything close to finding happiness in another dimension or wherever exactly he is. Felicity called it the "afterlife," but who knows if that's what it really was or just what she called it.

Plus, it's helpful that we know The Monitor can be wrong - he was wrong about how Crisis played out, so maybe Felicity *can* return to Star City from wherever she and Oliver are. There was no body left over when she walked into that smoky hole thing with The Monitor so it's not like she died in the traditional sense. Plus, MG said that Oliver is still Spectre and left open the possibility of him returning, so it seems like he can leave wherever it is that they are. Maybe when he does he can take Felicity with him. 

Regardless of the fact that I would've done things differently, it was nice to see Oliver so at peace and happy. While bittersweet, I found the last scene and the idea behind it to be achingly romantic, and for a show that made me angry so often, that's a nice feeling to part with. 

 

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I said it in the live thread, but this episode was a whole lot of "regular season plot" for a season finale, let alone the series finale. I wanted more of Felicity with her kids. I wanted more OTA. I wanted more of Oliver in general. I know he was dead but it seemed so odd to have a finale where the title character was barely around and had only three lines that weren't flashbacks. I know William getting kidnapped was just an excuse for everyone to be in their supersuits one last time, but I honestly didn't want or need that out of a finale. I've seen them fight a whole bunch. I haven't seen them say goodbye. I wanted more time for interactions between characters as this huge part of their lives came to an end. I didn't need a weird flirting scene between Tommy and Not!Laurel. I didn't need a Green Lantern reference. The saving grace was it ended with Oliver and Felicity together.

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31 minutes ago, shantown said:

I wanted more of Felicity with her kids

It got a bit overwhelmed (what with my hatred of this whole season culminating in Oliver 'accepting death' and him being treated like some sort of Father of Everything while simultaneously being separated from his actual children) but...

I can't express how irked I got at William being rescued and neither him nor Felicity having a moment. The whole thing about him feeling abandoned by her and Oliver was a huge part of his character. That's just been overthrown but no time was spent on it. In fact William as a character got almost as short a shrift as Felicity herself overall.

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Its so weird knowing that this show is over, it still hasn't sunk in yet for me. I wont have this show to love, and I wont have it to complain about. No Olicity, no Oliver and Diggle bro moments, no warehouses, it still just feels like another season finale, and not the end of the whole show. Possibly because, except for the last ten minutes and the tragic lack of the Oliver, it kind of did feel like just another season finale, and I would end up cruising the spoiler thread in a few days looking for spoilers for next season and what ridiculousness we have next. Its been so long, and this show and I (and all of us) have been through so much together, its hard to say goodbye.

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2 hours ago, Cthulhudrew said:

Did Ollie bring back Samantha? If not, that's kind of an FU to William (who, I just realized, didn't even get a single line in this episode, did he?)

Not bringing back Samantha was arguably the wisest decision Oliver ever made, as Green Arrow or Spectre, on this entire show.

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1 hour ago, Starfish35 said:

What was the other DC show that was supposed to be referenced?  I completely missed it.

There was a billboard that was a reference to the show "Powerless", on NBC a couple years ago. I didn't even know it was a DC-related show.

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Quote

Agreed. I like to think that because the last line in the script talked about "possibility" that O/F might have a similar life with their loved ones in whatever dimension this is. Maybe the office scene was just him greeting her before taking her out to show her the world.

I felt that the camera panning out to show the whole city was shorthand for them having a whole world and I can't imagine it being just them in it.  Not sure what the rules for that place would be but I don't see them being bored.  It's a world Oliver built with Felicity in mind.  He must have something set up to keep her beautiful brain occupied.  Maybe together they fight crime on a whole other scale.  Endless possibilities and experiences always with the safety of knowing they can't lose each other ever again.  

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2 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

I felt that the camera panning out to show the whole city was shorthand for them having a whole world and I can't imagine it being just them in it. 

As @tv echo pointed out in the media thread, when the camera pans out there are boats in the harbour so it doesn’t seem like they’re alone. I keep seeing people on Twitter complaining that they’re stuck at QC or in a deserted world, but that never even occurred to me. I just assumed the office was just the starting point. 

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If you're going to imagine a corporeal afterlife/paradise dimension you have to assume there's going to be other people or other things to do whether it's in a beautiful natural setting or a sappy recreation of their first "meeting" at QC setting. I can't imagine either would be happy stuck in Moira's old office for eternity even though they have each other. Reign is another CW show that had its lead couple reunite on screen after death in bed and I don't think they stayed there either. 

Oliver possibly has things to do as The Spectre and Felicity could be his Universal Overwatch?

I used to roll my eyes at fic authors who put a lot of emphasis on Oliver remembering or recognising Felicity from the S3 flashback because I didn't think it was anywhere near as important as their iconic meet cute S1. Oops. 😊

 

Edited by Featherhat
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I was thinking the other day that I loved how SA played Oliver in that final scene. At first I thought he was too subdued for his reunion, but then I realized that was an Oliver who has been at peace for 20 years. He knew that moment was coming and until then he could rest, watching his family grow up safe. I think that was beautifully played. 

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I think it's significant that, in a crowded episode, the writers made a point of letting us know that Oliver's body is not in the casket. IIRC, Oliver died (the first time) with massive disfiguring wounds, but then he was put in the Lazarus Pit, so he had a perfectly healthy (albeit soulless) body lying on a gurney for most of the crossover. Then he became the Spectre and, I guess, his body disappeared from the gurney? If his body was still there, Barry would have brought it back for the burial.

Are Mia and William going to put up a gravestone for Felicity next to Oliver's gravestone? Or do they still think she just went off on a journey and disappeared? Felicity has no body buried anywhere on Earth-Prime. Therefore, if she gets a gravestone, it'll be two empty graves next to each other (her and Oliver). Kinda weird.

Also, it sounds like Oliver has some control over what this afterlife looks like (he picked Moira's office for their reunion). Is that because he's the Spectre or does everyone in this afterlife get to shape their environment? I mean, does Felicity also get a say?

I agree that this final, more subdued version of Oliver was an Oliver who had finally let go of past trauma and past guilt and was finally at peace with himself.

I think this is also an Oliver who knows things on a cosmic scale and probably has a way of keeping an eye on what's happening on Earth-Prime.

I also want to note that, in the second Crisis tie-in comic (COIE GIant #2), Felicity was sucked into the Book of Oa and, while in the book, she saw images of the past, present and future ("I - I'm seeing everything...throughout all time..."). She knew that Oliver would become the Spectre. Who knows what else she saw of the future?*

(* Felicity also saw an image of adult Mia while inside the Book of Oa and, later, she saw adult Mia on the Waverider, although she hid from her. So she should've recognized Mia in this episode in the Arrow Bunker and not needed Sara to identify her.)

Edited by tv echo
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Given the final Olicity scene of this episode (which included 314's flashback, when Oliver first saw Felicity), I think you'll enjoy this MG tweet from 2015...

Edited by tv echo
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20 hours ago, AudienceofOne said:

But it's not real. And none of his friends and other family are there. They don't get to grow old or watch their children grow up or be a part of any of their friends' lives. This Matrix nightmare of eternal sameness is... horrible. It's horrible.

This presumes that its just another dimension and not, as Felicity herself stated, the actual afterlife.

Heaven is a real thing in the DCU and exists outside the Multiverse as mortals understand it (i.e. there's only one Heaven for all the infinite Earths and, similarly, there's only one Lucifer in the entire multiverse).

And if its Heaven, then presumably there are a bunch of souls present and its just that this particular scene was just the two of them because Oliver wanted it to be just the two of them and that, eventually, everyone else they love will show up to join them when they die too (and could mean that a still living Grandma Moira might even turn up at some point in 2040 should the spin-off get picked up).

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9 hours ago, Featherhat said:

If you're going to imagine a corporeal afterlife/paradise dimension you have to assume there's going to be other people or other things to do whether it's in a beautiful natural setting or a sappy recreation of their first "meeting" at QC setting. I can't imagine either would be happy stuck in Moira's old office for eternity even though they have each other. Reign is another CW show that had its lead couple reunite on screen after death in bed and I don't think they stayed there either. 

Oliver possibly has things to do as The Spectre and Felicity could be his Universal Overwatch?

I used to roll my eyes at fic authors who put a lot of emphasis on Oliver remembering or recognising Felicity from the S3 flashback because I didn't think it was anywhere near as important as their iconic meet cute S1. Oops. 😊

 

I think we can now say that Felicity being the first person he recognized as a real person rather than a threat or target started with the first time he saw her.  Unconsciously or consciously, I think he was looking for her when he got back.  The show even accidentally had him running into a blond with a ponytail at QC before EBR ever showed up.  In many ways from the outside looking in, you'd never know they hadn't always planned Olicity from the start.  But that's part of what always made Olicity so special.  It worked.  They worked.  They made sense with who Oliver and Felicity were and who they would become.  It's that magical cocktail where the characters almost write the story themselves.  

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On 1/29/2020 at 6:22 PM, apinknightmare said:

Regardless of the fact that I would've done things differently, it was nice to see Oliver so at peace and happy. While bittersweet, I found the last scene and the idea behind it to be achingly romantic, and for a show that made me angry so often, that's a nice feeling to part with.

It also left in no doubt that Felicity was the love of Oliver's life, and maybe that his way back started when he first saw her, later guided along the path by Diggle. Also made canon that in this version of the Green Arrow, Felicity is his match, not just a place holder till Oliver finds the right Canary,

Once SA and MG decided that Oliver Must Die at the end of the series (grrrr), this is really the best ending we could get.

Edited by statsgirl
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I just had a thought.

Since Oliver reset things does that mean he tweaked the events of S1 as well? 

Everyone remembers the first timeline right but things didn't necessarily happen exactly like that the second time around.

So I'm perfectly justified in saying that he could have gone back to Starling and chased Felicity, avoiding the whole radioactive Lauriver plot.

If Laurel was married to Tommy I assume she didn't have much to do with Oliver the second time around.

I'm assuming he kept his first meeting with Felicity coz he's a sap. Now I really want to know what went down between Olicity 2.0.

Did Spectre Oliver give himself more Olicity moments? Did tell her/chase her sooner.

I love this ending because it's left me obsessing over stuff like this.

 

 

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6 hours ago, tv echo said:

Also, it sounds like Oliver has some control over what this afterlife looks like (he picked Moira's office for their reunion). Is that because he's the Spectre or does everyone in this afterlife get to shape their environment? I mean, does Felicity also get a say?

The real control here seems to have come from the WB and more specifically the WB's budget, which forced them to find some plot reason to use an existing set and archival footage, with "hey, it will be romantic!" as the plot choice they went with, along with, hey, the Spectre's pretty powerful, right? Can certainly control his afterlife, at least? Let's go with that!

And also, of course, this assumes that they are in the afterlife, and not in some parallel pocket dimension conveniently close enough to Earth Prime to let both of them make future guest star appearances on the Arrowverse shows, a pocket dimension that Spectre Oliver can control because he helped create it.

But, afterlife or parallel pocket dimension, I assume Oliver and Felicity will be chatting about what to choose/create next, and I also assume this will involve some sort of bedroom, or at least bed.

 

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11 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

I just had a thought.

Since Oliver reset things does that mean he tweaked the events of S1 as well? 

Everyone remembers the first timeline right but things didn't necessarily happen exactly like that the second time around.

So I'm perfectly justified in saying that he could have gone back to Starling and chased Felicity, avoiding the whole radioactive Lauriver plot.

If Laurel was married to Tommy I assume she didn't have much to do with Oliver the second time around.

I'm assuming he kept his first meeting with Felicity coz he's a sap. Now I really want to know what went down between Olicity 2.0.

Did Spectre Oliver give himself more Olicity moments? Did tell her/chase her sooner.

I love this ending because it's left me obsessing over stuff like this.

 

 

With regard to Laurel/Tommy and the events of season 1, my guess is that the end of the season is what changed. Instead of Oliver confessing that he's still into her when she goes to him to help out getting Tommy back, this time he keeps his mouth shut and assures both of them that he only has friendly feelings for her now and that Tommy shouldn't end the relationship over unnecessary jealousy. Or something like that. Then they get married at some point after that. I'm curious as to the circumstances leading to her being Black Canary. Tommy was against Oliver being the Hood because he was killing people but Laurel tried to kill at least one person after Sara died treated being a vigilante as a way to get an adrenaline fix so I wonder what objections Tommy had in the new timeline. Oh, maybe the new timeline actually dealt with the conflict of Laurel being a vigilante and district attorney. Shame we missed that.

7 minutes ago, quarks said:

But, afterlife or parallel pocket dimension, I assume Oliver and Felicity will be chatting about what to choose/create next,

I wouldn't be surprised if we see characters from the other shows join them in the paradise dimension when they leave or their shows end. Maybe Amell will agree to return to greet everyone or they'll have The Monitor escort them and explain what's going on.

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1 hour ago, quarks said:

But, afterlife or parallel pocket dimension, I assume Oliver and Felicity will be chatting about what to choose/create next, and I also assume this will involve some sort of bedroom, or at least bed.

He's probably set up a bed near all their special spots.  Once they are done reliving and chrisenting all the greatest hits in Star City (Starling?  Would Ray have rebranded it still?)  then they can move on to all the places they never got around to.  It's like an eternal honeymoon. 

Edited by BkWurm1
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2 hours ago, scarynikki12 said:

With regard to Laurel/Tommy and the events of season 1, my guess is that the end of the season is what changed. Instead of Oliver confessing that he's still into her when she goes to him to help out getting Tommy back, this time he keeps his mouth shut and assures both of them that he only has friendly feelings for her now and that Tommy shouldn't end the relationship over unnecessary jealousy. Or something like that. Then they get married at some point after that. I'm curious as to the circumstances leading to her being Black Canary. Tommy was against Oliver being the Hood because he was killing people but Laurel tried to kill at least one person after Sara died treated being a vigilante as a way to get an adrenaline fix so I wonder what objections Tommy had in the new timeline. Oh, maybe the new timeline actually dealt with the conflict of Laurel being a vigilante and district attorney. Shame we missed that.

I wouldn't be surprised if we see characters from the other shows join them in the paradise dimension when they leave or their shows end. Maybe Amell will agree to return to greet everyone or they'll have The Monitor escort them and explain what's going on.

Based on Dinah saying there was no trace of the Black Canary and Mia having no idea who Dinah and Siren, maybe Laurel never became Black Canary. 

Edited by Chaser
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Time travel gives me headache. Moira, Lance and Tommy living changes things. Changes past storylines.  What happened to Slade after he didn’t kill Moira? How did pre Prime Earth Laurel die if she married Tommy? Oliver kept the part where Felicity goes with the Monitor the same? Thinking about this new PE and how it changes the past storylines on all the shows gives me a headache. This wasn’t one the worst finales of time but nor was it one of the best of all time. It was mediocre. It didn’t reach its full potential. Did Oliver have that hairstyle in S1? I don’t remember. I hate it when shows do new flashbacks of past seasons because it’s never accurate. Emiko is not Thea’s sister because Malcolm is her biological father. Oliver cannot change that too because Thea shouldn’t exist. I don’t hate the finale but it’s not one I would watch multiple times. I think the last scene was well played. 

Edited by Simba122504
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11 minutes ago, Chaser said:

Based on Dinah saying there was no trace of the Black Canary and Mia having no idea who Dinah and Siren were, I wonder if Laurel never became the Black Canary at all.

So maybe the title died with Sara and then Laurel went all in on being the DA. Not being Black Canary doesn't prevent Damian killing her to punish Quentin or Siren assuming her identity to save her own ass. Tommy and Siren did act like they were meeting for the first time at the funeral when they should have memories of interacting with each other while she was pretending to be Laurel. I mean, they were meeting for the first time but their memories shouldn't support that.

Obviously we're not supposed to think that hard, given that the episode also had Quentin practically jumping with joy that Laurel stayed dead, but my brain goes there.

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Just now, Chaser said:

Damien still could have killed her. He killed her because she was Quentin’s daughter, not because she was Black Canary. 

The Tommy Siren scene made no sense.  Lol 

I forgot to add a doesn't in there, heh but I fixed it so it makes sense now.

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Two days later and I'm kind of surprised at myself and how I'm not really sad the show is over.  And I'm the kind of person who will think about "objectively" bad stuff like Sweet Valley High and feel sad there are no more SVH books.

I never hate-watched Arrow (even when I found it dragging and not hitting emotionally), but like many others, felt the show kept declining year-over-year, so I'm sure that takes the sting out of it.  It's been so long since the high quality of s1 and s2 that I've certainly accepted THAT version of the show is gone.

But also, I'd been so prepped for, what, at least a year now, that Oliver was going to die (and presumably stay dead, vs. all of the other deaths and takebacks in the Arrowverse).  Seeing it happen is usually different than understanding conceptually it's going to happen, but that was just so much time to adjust to the idea.  And then in execution, the last episodes have been so anticlimactic.  He died and came back, and then took on the Spectre mantle as not-Oliver in the first three episodes of Crisis.  Then there's a month-long break, and the last two Crisis episodes were totally underwhelming in virtually every aspect.

Followed by the backdoor pilot which only served that purpose vs. bringing anything valuable to the core closure of Arrow.  And frankly, the spinoff proposal stole even more time out of the Arrow finale because I'm convinced they wouldn't have written so much for Dinah and Laurel in the finale if they weren't continuing to tee up those characters for a future show.

Then after weeks of a progressive downward shift, there's finally the finale where Oliver's been dead for multiple episodes in the viewer's experience.  Felicity's barely shown interacting with characters because they only had Emily on set for two days.  Oliver's dead, so he's only seen in flashbacks (mostly with only Diggle) or the afterlife.  All of the cameos, though very welcome, are fleeting enough that they can't overcompensate for the fact that the momentum going into the finale and throughout the finale wasn't there (for me).  I felt like the only momentum (for me) was a bit clinical - I know this is the last 44 minutes of the show I'll ever see - and hoping that Oliver got some kind of happiness, even though he's clearly going to stay dead.

I realize this was the show's aggregate best effort, so I don't want to womp-womp over it so much, but a big part of me doesn't even feel "womp-womp."  I'm just kind of ... shrugging that it's over.

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15 minutes ago, sweetandsour said:

And frankly, the spinoff proposal stole even more time out of the Arrow finale because I'm convinced they wouldn't have written so much for Dinah and Laurel in the finale if they weren't continuing to tee up those characters for a future show.

To be fair to the show, those are two characters who have been on the show for years (and KC being a series regular for 7/8 seasons) and are series regulars. They should get time to wrap stories up regardless, like how Diggle got a lot of extra time and stuff to do as well. Even Rene got his extra moments (and Roy, who wasn't even a series regular anymore, got his own mini-subplot that also gave Thea some extra time as well). The only "main" characters who got shafted really were Curtis (who wasn't a regular, so it's not as glaring) and Connor and William (who were only only regulars for this shortened season, so hardly controversial).

I do think Mia getting her on subplot could be argued as taking time from the finale, though, since it very directly pertained to the spinoff. She could have just showed up to save William and have her scene with Felicity without all the set up but instead had her own subplot. But Laurel's and Dinah's stuff very much just was about their characters in Arrow and didn't even connect at all to their characters in 809.

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57 minutes ago, sweetandsour said:

 

Followed by the backdoor pilot which only served that purpose vs. bringing anything valuable to the core closure of Arrow.  And frankly, the spinoff proposal stole even more time out of the Arrow finale because I'm convinced they wouldn't have written so much for Dinah and Laurel in the finale if they weren't continuing to tee up those characters for a future show.

Laurel didn't even get that much screentime in the finale. Though they probably would have anyway since they were wrapping up everyone and they're regulars and KC is an OG cast member who wasnt returning just for a cameo. 

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3 hours ago, scarynikki12 said:

So maybe the title died with Sara and then Laurel went all in on being the DA. Not being Black Canary doesn't prevent Damian killing her to punish Quentin or Siren assuming her identity to save her own ass. Tommy and Siren did act like they were meeting for the first time at the funeral when they should have memories of interacting with each other while she was pretending to be Laurel. I mean, they were meeting for the first time but their memories shouldn't support that.

Obviously we're not supposed to think that hard, given that the episode also had Quentin practically jumping with joy that Laurel stayed dead, but my brain goes there.

I'm handwaving that as everyone decided that it would be too painful for Tommy to see a doppleganger of his ex-wife but it was just fine for Quentin and Sara to see her so they knew all about Not Laurel but Tommy didn't.

I realize that as explanations go, this lacks something, and by something, ok, an awful lot, and also fails to answer every other question about Tommy (like, does he know that Thea is his sister? Uh, for that matter, is Thea still is his sister or is her biological father Robert again? Since Moira managed to hang on to Queen Consolidated why couldn't Tommy hold on to Verdant, or is Tommy just that bad of a club manager? What, precisely, is Tommy doing now? Does he ever work with Team Arrow? Did he go with everyone to Nanda Parbat? Did he blame Oliver for Original Laurel's death? THE QUESTIONS THEY WILL NOT STOP COMING.) But this is the best explanation I have.

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Since I don't actually want the *entire* series to be AU I assume that some of the toxic Lauriver stuff had to happen for Tommy and Laurel to be happy and for Oliver to realise he didn't actually want Laurel in that way. 

Thus he and Laurel still slept together but realising Tommy saw combined with him saving her (and both surviving) gave her a radically different view of him than she had in season 1 and had come to in S4. She truly mourned him in S2 and instead of the conversation they have where they say they can never happen again because he died, it's Laurel saying she loves Tommy but things are up in the air after the undertaking but she and Oliver can't happen again. By S4 Tommy had been dead for years and she had joined Oliver's crusade =Oliver the love of her life. 

With Olicity I'm still going to say it happened roughly as it did on screen, because I want to have seen it all damn it, although they are more scenes of Tommy telling him he's an idiot for pushing her away and definitely for working with Malcolm and Moira being Moira. I'm not sure they were ready for it much earlier than the beginning of S3 and Thea still seems to have gone off with Malcolm etc. 

Not to mention that unless they're going to address this on LOT it drastically alters Sara and Ray's backstory.

Thea and Roy also appear to have happened roughly the same with Moira and Tommy around, so Thea still got caught in the LOA's crosshairs thanks to Malcolm.

Whilst I wouldn't mind having E1 and Dinah not have become BCs I don't think that's how the spin off will play out if it gets picked up. It's part of the big MYSTERY to solve. 

Tommy move to Chicago after Laurel died and has only recently returned and is not involved in Team Arrow stuff, that's why he's meeting Siren for the first time. 

I have realised I'm very uncomfortable with Oliver essentially writing fix-it fic with his life, even the good parts like possibly getting together with Felicity sooner like a lot of it was terrible and frustrating but happened that way for a reason. 

Edited by Featherhat
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PLEASE HELP ME!  =P

 

I'm VERY confused about HOW Felicity ended up with Oliver?!

I wouldn't call it a plot hole exactly? But something is seriously amiss. I'm very surprised no one else has mentioned this. 

I mean first of all, the dark 2040 future got erased, - that never happened, as star city became some kind of crime free nirvana. So she didn't go to him then (as we where first shown) - as that never became a reality! 

(And if she did, then there are two Felicity's, one from the dark 2040, currently canoodeling with Oliver in the afterlife/timebubble, and another Felicity living with her kids in the happy version of star city?!)

So what happens with the happy Felicity then, when she dies? Does she never get to see him again? Or does she also go to the same afterlife, so then all of a sudden Oliver has two wives? Or do they become combined into one person, retaining both their memories? 

No, none of that makes ANY sense, because that future got over-written when they made a new universe, so to be clear, she didn't go to him as we where first shown in the dark sad future that Mia grew up in. (Even though that was the clip they used to show her leaving, which makes the whole situation hella confusing.)

 

And "their" monitor died, in the final fight when they lost the multiverse, so he couldn't bring her to Oliver.

 I must have a terrible memory, because I honestly don't remember if the monitor ended up surviving in the new timeline? Supergirl was fighting with Lex, and he was there, but I don't remember if he survives? 

 

But even if he did, he wouldn't be the monitor they knew, because they went back to the start and fixed everything before he even had a chance to ever "become" the monitor they knew.

 

Because he only became the monitor to fix his mistake. But in this timeline they fixed it before he had a chance to become "their" monitor. 

So in this reality he never became the monitor, and following that change, he never comes to know the paragons, or even who Oliver is, and as such, he wouldn't even know that he needed to bring Felicity to him?! 

So there is a serious flaw in the story here?! 

Time travel hurts my scull, so I might have missed something, or mixed something up, but as the story is presented right now, I just don't see how she could've been brought to Oliver by the monitor. It makes no sense! 

And I'm not saying it Cant be fixed with some fan wank, but as the story is presented right  now, the writers seriously missed something! 

 

Can someone please help me make sense of this? I seriously hate it when storylines are written so completely into a knot, that the writers themselves don't even realize that what they are telling us doesn't work, based on the story they've laid out. 

 

For example, I could explain it so that Oliver in his almighty specter-ness, somehow contacts the monitor, explains the situation, and asks him to bring Felicity to him when 20 years have passed since he was killed. But then they have to tell us or show us that! 

I shouldn't have to make sh*t up, to cover for holes in the story, that could easily be patched with simple explanations.

Or did I miss something? I'm pretty sure I got it right though, if I just interpret the story as they've told it to me. 

Someone please help me, I'm right aren't I? There's something missing from the story to justify how the monitor could've brought her to him. 

Ahrg, like I said, my brain feels like a pretzel just thinking about it.

=P

Thanks though, for sharing this experience with me, and enabling me to read your thoughts. Its very interesting and cathartic. 

Bye! =D

/ First time writer, long time lurker, and please excuse my English as it isn't my first language. - K

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I'm also very curious as to how this new combined earth works? How many worlds exactly got combined?

And obviously one earth can't hold neither the people of 33+ (999?) earths, or the buildings of multiple worlds. So where did the people there weren't room for go? How where the people that got to stay chosen?

For example, If Supergirl are living on the same earth as the arrow people now, what happened to the old National city that used to be on earth one? Did it just straight up get replaced? Where does the replacement line go, that separates the puzzled together cities /worlds?

Will people notice, like "oh no, my favorite coffee place was one block over, but that didn't make the cut when Earth -33s national city was cut, pasted, and Tetrised together into a singular new world."

What happened to the people who lived in Earth - ones National City? Did they just disappear? Or are there doublets of everyone running around? Are there two catCo buildings now? Are there two cat grants?

Do they have identical apartments and drivers licences? (I know she has moved away, but she was the first character that came to mind for some reason.) 🤪

Most logically this isn't the case, but then what happened to earth one's national city? (Not to mention the national cities of Earth-2 to Earth- 999, or how any many where combined.) 

There where some (by some) beloved characters from Earth two, who featured semi regularly on the flash. In the original timeline, earth two was wiped out. But so was the rest of the universe..

so now everything is possible again right? So potentially some of the characters from earth two, might also have been "re-spawned" just like everyone else? So potentially Earth two's Harry Wells, might be living on this world, right?

Oh no, 🥺

I just realized I'm gonna miss the comic relief of the counsel of Wellses. It could be to much at times, but it was also quite amusing from time to time.

Unless Oliver brought a shit ton of Harry Wellses to this earth for some unphantomable reason. (Probably not.)😉

And how about the histories of each world? Earth one basically didn't have an alien problem, excempting the stray dominator attack. 😉 But Supergirls world, where crawling with aliens! So are their histories combined now? 

I Cant remember what Mon Els race was called, but when his people attacked the earth, and the atmosphere was seeded with kryptonite, did that happen on this world now too? So does everyone know about aliens now? can aliens turn up in star city now?

Are meta humans going to be as common in national city (Supergirl) as in Central city? (Flash.)

Are there still an Argos? (Or whatever the world was called, where Supergirls mother lives.)

And did Oliver personally choose who lived /died/was replaced /was wiped out of existence? or did it just happen? (He seems to have had some control, or he wouldn't have brought back so many family members.)

But how does he know what people are important to other people? Barry for example, loves /cares for a lot of different people on different earths. Is Oliver omnicent enough to be able to pick and choose that everyone Barry loves, also lives on this world?

And how the f*ck did he have the time to do that for everyone? (And where does the line go, how many people did he try to accommodate in his tailored world?)

(And then let's not even touch the subject of how ethical it is to create a world based on who one person cares about. That's a topic for another day.)😜

Are there going to be overlap? So that some people in one city gets replaced by their doppelganger from another earth? What if a couple suddenly becomes husband from earth 1, and the same wife, but from earth 4, so she has different memories?

Was there some try to be proportionate in how much was saved /recreated from each world? 

What do people remember /know exactly? Is it common knowledge that there where multiple earths out there? Will people who where already in the know, miss the people who disappeared? 

The world where Cisco's previous girlfriend came from for example, their society and laws where different from ours. If her city ends up on this world, will they still have the same laws and memories of their society? 

This has to be a culture chock on a massive scale. What happens to the laws of the universe, are they combined from the different worlds? OMG, SO MANY QUESTIONS!! 

Am I a wierdo? ☺️ am I the only one who cant wrap my brain around how this world will work? 🤪

I wonder if the writers has put in even half the time that I have thought about this. 😉

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5 hours ago, scarynikki12 said:

So maybe the title died with Sara and then Laurel went all in on being the DA. Not being Black Canary doesn't prevent Damian killing her to punish Quentin or Siren assuming her identity to save her own ass. Tommy and Siren did act like they were meeting for the first time at the funeral when they should have memories of interacting with each other while she was pretending to be Laurel. I mean, they were meeting for the first time but their memories shouldn't support that.

Obviously we're not supposed to think that hard, given that the episode also had Quentin practically jumping with joy that Laurel stayed dead, but my brain goes there.

Whose to say that Tommy stayed in Star City after Laurel died? She dies, he moves away, returns for Oliver's funeral. 

Tommy living drastically changes Laurels arc for s2. Does she become an alcoholic after Sara dies? How does that change her relationship with Sara? Or is Tommy put into a coma, wakes up after Sara's death, they get married at the end of s3?

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