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scarynikki12

S08.E10: Fadeout

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Glad I got to watch it live, at least!

I did have to take a few minutes to process everything, because while I thought it ended strong with the funeral/eulogy and Oliver/Felicity finally being at peace, admittedly a lot of this episode felt rushed, incoherent, and almost fillerish.  Because, yeah, I really didn't need another storyline about Young William being kidnapped again: especially since it was by some guy that was only just introduced here.  Had it been a former villain like Slade, Damien, or Chase, that might have had at least been fun (as long as it wasn't Diaz!), but this was just a boring ploy to have Mia play Arrow for a bit.  Yawn!

So, apparently Oliver's sacrifice and newly created universe also brought back Moira, Tommy (!),  and Quentin from the dead.  Oh, and Emiko too, and she's no longer evil.  That's cool, at least.

I'm not sure what was the worst use of their returning guest actor: Quentin once again having to be all "Oh, don't cry, Laurel!  You're still a hero, dammit!" again or poor Rory/Ragman having to declare with a straight face that Rene is the most like Oliver.  Damn, Ragman!  What did Oliver ever do to you?!  That was a bigger burn than the ones everyone in Havenrock got!

Glad Roy and Thea seemed to work things out and going to tie the knot.

So, am I understanding Diggle's final scene, correctly?  Is he actually going to end up becoming a Lantern?!!

While it might have been about the fan service, I did love seeing all the familiar faces back, and the show keeping a lot of their names out of the credits.  Good old Tommy!  My beloved Nyssa being there and getting a nice bit with Sara (yeah, I know that Sara/Ava on Legends is probably endgame, but dammit, my heart will always be Sara/Nyssa!  Besides, who wouldn't want Talia as your sister in-law?!)  Barry and Kara there, and getting a nice moment between Barry and Felicity.  Anatoly!  And Diggle being the one to give the eulogy was the best choice.

And then the actual final scene happened.  I have no idea if that is the actual afterlife or another dimension, but I'm glad Oliver and Felicity are together and got their happy ending.  If anyone deserved it, it would be those two.

Fare thee well, Arrow!  It was an up and down ride for sure, with lots of highs (Season Two, Original Team Arrow, good villains like Slade and Chase, great side characters like Sara, Anatoly, and Nyssa, and so forth), but also some lows (Season Three, fringing Sara, telling, but not showing with Laurel's "redemption", the Noobs, boring villains like Ra's and especially Diaz, and that time Diggle was taken over by an alien, apparently.)  Still, if it wasn't for Arrow, we wouldn't have had the other shows, and no matter how many times they might look down on it or whichever one ends up being my actual favorite (probably will be Legends of Tomorrow), that certainly counts for something.  Plus, I got to see actors I was already familiar with get to deliver some killer performances like David Ramsey, Katrina Law, Susanna Thompson, and Manu Bennett for example, along with being introduced to some new faces, who I've become huge fans of like Stephen Amell, Colin Donnell, Caity Lotz, and especially Emily Bett Rickhards.  So, in the end, I think the good did outweigh the bad.  So, while I do think it probably was about time to end it, I will miss this silly, but fun show that, if nothing else, I was always invested in, even when it slipped up.  And in this day and age, that counts for something in my eyes.

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2 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

And why are they hellbent on making everyone's secret identities known? And is E2 Laurel still having to use E1 Laurel's identity? Does Star City know that Laurel is dead or is she thought to be alive? 

I dont understand why Moira had to know about Pre-Crisis timeline....just why? I feel like everyone knows about Pre-Crisis because they all seem to know that Oliver is the reason why this new world exists???

Right! I forgot to put that "revealing everyone's secret identities" into my Bad Things post above. But, since you mentioned it - yeah, that was weird. Also weird: starting out with that documentary footage and then just....dropping it? I know Arrow already did a documentary framing device episode, but that could have been a really strong way to frame this series finale. Better than using the series finale to teach Mia that her father didn't kill John Byrne so she didn't have to either.

From what Moira and Tommy said, it sounds like they don't exactly remember the pre-Crisis world, but someone told them about it. Which sorta goes along with that scene in the final episode of Crisis (the Legends of Tomorrow episode), where the president sorta explained Crisis. But still doesn't explain why the Arrow characters seem to have a lot more pertinent info than the Batwoman characters do.

Maybe that will change once this documentary is released?

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I was okay with this finale. I mean, there have been some finales that did not deliver at all. But I can live with Oliver going all Barry Allen on time and space for that ending with Felicity. AND it looked inspired by a scene from COIE #12, where Alexander Luthor (son of the heroic Lex Luthor of Earth-3 (long story)) took the Superman and Lois Lane of Earth-2 to a paradise of sorts. The Superboy of Earth-Prime went as well, his existance negated by the Crisis.

KalL-Crisis-12.jpg

(Note: It REALLY helps if you don't read Infinite Crisis)

Seriously, it did felt weird that Oliver negated a lot of plot points. I mean, when Barry Allen fucks with time, there are always consequences . . . and I don't think even Spectre power can make that great of a difference. He brought Tommy back . . . but what if that also means Malcolm got to live without OllieSpec knowing about it? Ditto with Quentin Lance . . . though I'm happy that he got to come back, even if he still obsesses over another version of one of his daughters while the other one is still alive. C'mon, Sara has to come back from time to time and pick up mail or sometime. One nice bit: Rene didn't say "Hoss" once tonight. He hasn't done that since Quentin originally died.

William got double-kidnapped, twenty years apart. Not nearly as big a feat as Vandal Savage getting triple-killed by the Legends, but it's still up there. Poor William . . . seeing his baby stepsister all grown up, realizing that he will never be as awesome as her. Oh, well.

John Diggle: Green Lantern? I dunno. I figure Kyle Rayner would have been an easier GL to show on the CW, but John as a possible fill-in for John (with an "h") Stewart could work. Or maybe that wasn't a ring in the box. Could have been Kryptonite for all we know.

52 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

I'm going to assume that they didnt get the rights to Green Lantern because MG should know that the rings dont come in boxes....there is a whole speech that goes along with it..

Hey, canon can be changed. We don't necessarily need a dead alien or the oath right off the bat.

Anyone else feel the parallels between Oliver's funeral and the end of Avengers: Endgame? Lots of faces, some we've forgotten. Hey, Talia and Nyssa are back! And they're not trying to kill each other. And Nyssa still considers Sara to be her beloved. I hope she knows about Ava. Otherwise, shit would get awkward.

Well, it's over. As much as the series could bug me, I was good with it. And it was fun posting on the TWoP and Previously forums about it. Hope I'll see you guys around if I haven't already.

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Just finished. First thoughts. Haven’t read the posts yet. 

I bawled. 

I’m not upset with this ending if we couldn’t have Oliver living the life he really wanted, retired and raising his children.  I’d like to think where Oliver and Felicity are now they can live any life they want so he could get to do it all over with Felicity, but one way or another, they are together forever.  Nothing can take that away. And that is such a huge gift.

I need more time to process so much of what was said and hinted at.  They could have done a whole season just showing the “official” timeline the rest of the world is walking around believing.  Moira and Felicity must have ended up having a relationship.  One that included raising William and Mia together at times if Mia ended up living at the mansion.  There’s so much to take in.  So many roads to explore.  Fanfic is going to be fueled for the next decade, lol. 

On a lot of levels, this finale was a win and yet of course we again missed out on so many moments.  Moira and Felicity are standing at Oliver’s grave.  Felicity is his wife.  And they STILL don’t talk to each other?  So many missed opportunities.   On the other hand, while Tommy and Moira and Quentin and Emiko and even Zoe 20 years in the future all lived, we now have it show canon that Oliver didn’t want E1 Laurel back.  Lol.  I couldn’t stop laughing. I wasn’t looking for that kind of shade against Laurel but no looking gift horses in the mouth. 

Theroy is back together.  Too rushed but I’ll take it.  It was lovely to see Nyssa and NySara, if only for a sparkling second. Mia and Felicity's time together was so brief yet meaningful.  Wanted more but understand there wasn't time.  There wasn't time for a lot of things.  I missed Rory and was so happy to see his face but I didn’t get the Felicity Rory interaction I wanted.  I resent the time WildDog took up.  A lot.  Sorry dude, no redemption for you in my eyes.  Only reason I didn't root for you to die was so Zoe was happy.

  Dyla had several good moments showing they are as strong as ever.  Another sighting of not so baby Sara.  And they are all moving to Metropolis.***  Just the chance of Lyla or Diggle showing up in Batwoman means I’m going to have to catch up and keep watching after all.

They better make Mia rescuing Adult William the focus of the spinoff’s real first episode or I will riot. (assuming it happens) Also, please sign up Moira to that cast.  I don't care how old she should be.  She's Moira fricken Queen.  She only ages if she wants to.  Give me my candy.     

I am very well pleased that my time watching Arrow ends with me feeling like the last 8 years of ups and downs were worth it.  I can’t say that about a lot of shows.  And yet it doesn’t feel like enough.  Still, it’s so much more than any other show has given me.  I'm not ready for it to be over.   

***Edited cause I'm an idiot.  Gotham is NOT Metropolis.  I have no idea why I got this mixed up.  I am way too big a fan of both cities and their characters to get it this badly mixed up, lol.  But phew, I don't have to start another Arrowverse show after all. At least right now.  If Diggle is in a Metropolis spin off, hell yeah I'm there.   

Edited by BkWurm1 · Reason: Brain fart
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25 minutes ago, quarks said:

6. The Queens kept their mansion! (We kinda knew that from last week's episode, but still.) YAY!

Did Moira continue to stay there? Did Felicity just move in with the two kids since Mia's bedroom is in there?  How did she and Moira manage to get along?  Inquiring minds want to know.

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Happy for those of you who stayed until the end. It is hard for me to believe this was once must see tv for me...I gave up around  season 4 for sure and tried to hang in with this board until about two years ago. Safe to say I had no idea what was going on, but I loved Season 1 and 2 of this show.  I often wonder what might have been had they not made some creative choices, but I am glad that it lasted 8 seasons.  Special shout out to Stephen A and David...the heart and soul of this show!  I hope they both find great work in the future. 

So...did they bring back Moira's husband?  

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Several things bugged me about this episode (mostly, pointless resurrections), a couple of things confused me (I thought Dinah woke up in the future post-Crisis?), and I'm not even going to complain that we didn't get to see Michael Rowe's Deadshot again... honestly, none of it really matters because they frankly could have done no wrong...

Because they Freakin' gave Diggle his Green Lantern Ring!!!!

(He better show up on Superman as a regular now.)

 

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I didn’t watch but was reading Twitter comments. So Felicity basically gave up seeing her children ever again to be with Oliver? I mean, true love and all but she’s a mother too, even if they’re adults. That’s a bit messy. 

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2 minutes ago, Auror said:

I didn’t watch but was reading Twitter comments. So Felicity basically gave up seeing her children ever again to be with Oliver? I mean, true love and all but she’s a mother too, even if they’re adults. That’s a bit messy. 

Yeah it's not ideal. I just kinda look at it as they really wanted their Olicity reunion to wrap things up so that's what had to give.

It would've been nice if there was another scene with 2040 Felicity, William and Mia and them being told where she's going and they approve but I guess that's too much to ask. 🙄

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10 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

we now have it show canon that Oliver didn’t want E1 Laurel back

Her own father didn’t want her back. Even the post-finale interviews suggest that Tommy could just hook up with her doppelgänger, no big deal. 

I never liked E1 Laurel, but sometimes I feel like no one hated her, not even every person who’s ever watched Arrow and disliked her combined, more than the Arrow writers.

I wish we’d gotten flashbacks showing some of the changes (like with Tommy, Moira around) instead of the S1/William kidnapped connected plot. (And one of those could’ve maybe involved Felicity? Since they couldn’t get EBR for the flashbacks we got. Maybe they could’ve fit in a quick moment with her?)

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18 minutes ago, catrice2 said:

So...did they bring back Moira's husband?  

Nope, neither husband. Spectre Oliver apparently decided that if he changed the past and let his father live, he would never become the Green Arrow and thus never become Spectre, dooming the universe, so, Robert Queen stayed dead. 

Second husband Walter Steele is still alive, but I'm guessing that the filming schedule just didn't work out for actor Colin Salmon.

 

 

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17 minutes ago, Cthulhudrew said:

a couple of things confused me (I thought Dinah woke up in the future post-Crisis?),

Dinah was sent to 2040 the day after Oliver's funeral. Or, at least, that's all she remembers. So her presence in this episode is in line with the backdoor pilot.

13 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

I never liked E1 Laurel, but sometimes I feel like no one hated her, not even every person who’s ever watched Arrow and disliked her combined, more than the Arrow writers.

It definitely comes across that way but I think it's more that they firmly decided that only Siren is here to stay and all of these things are to drive that home. It's possible that they do legit hate the character but I feel like that would be something that the actors would be aware of and would end up being one of those blind items that pop up every so often. I think Cassidy in particular would be unable to keep that a secret if she had heard even a rumor that they hated Laurel given how attached she is to the character and seems to keep hoping she'll return. So, I agree that it seems like they hate her the most but it's just them being over the top in making it clear that she won't return.

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45 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

There’s so much to take in.  So many roads to explore.  Fanfic is going to be fueled for the next decade, lol. 

This is one thing that tickles me. Usually when a show ends the fandom dies off (or at least gets much smaller) but between specs on how the reset changed the past and the way they left the specifics of the afterlife wide open, we’re gonna get so much fic!

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42 minutes ago, Auror said:

I didn’t watch but was reading Twitter comments. So Felicity basically gave up seeing her children ever again to be with Oliver? I mean, true love and all but she’s a mother too, even if they’re adults. That’s a bit messy. 

She spent 20 years raising them to be capable adults who were thriving, from what we saw in 809. How many more years was she supposed to hang around for it to be OK for her to go do what she wanted to do? 

Plus, Oliver was still Spectre. According to wikipedia, he has "All the abilities of a god, including, but not limited to, manipulation of time and space". I'm sure if he and Felicity wanted to pop back for a visit, they could. 

Edited by lemotomato
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2 hours ago, Writing Wrongs said:

But that wasn't his mother who died, that was a Moira from somewhere else. Same for Tommy. But Thea is acting like that Moira is her mom. So are they just interchangeable now?

The Moira and Tommy and Quentin we saw all were E1 original characters but instead of dying, they somehow were saved and then from there, the timeline as the world in general knew it, changed.  So for them, they hear that they died in some alternate timeline and to them it's just some story except that there are certain people that have been given back their dual timeline memories.  So that's why it matters that they know.  People in their life would suddenly see them differently. 

So Tommy IS E1's Tommy and Moira IS our Oliver's mother.  She just happens to have 6 more years of memories and interactions with her son that we know nothing about.  (Some of those HAVE to include Felicity.  Someone better write that fic up soon.)   The heroes other than the paragons would even remember all that stuff.  It's so trippy.  

But yes, the show is again acting like Laurel is interchangeable to Quentin but I think we are supposed to believe that for Quentin, he has accepted his L died and then got to know this L and as delusional as it started, they have an existing relationship so it's too late for him to at all be comfortable wishing E2 L was gone and E1 was back alive in her place.  It would be too high a price to wish to trade someone alive for someone dead for 4 years. Now per Supergirl, he could have had both versions show up but I don't think that occured to either of them.  

2 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

This is Prime Moira, we are (supposed to be) living in a "new Earth". The past changed, just everyone apparently gets to remember a pre-Crisis world and have two set of memories, one that is never addressed.

I don't think anyone but the "heroes" have dual memories.  Most of the world would remember the new timeline.  But I really wonder about the paragons.  They didn't forget anything and didn't have new memories.  So they are the ones now most in the dark about the past.  

1 hour ago, Primal Slayer said:

So they go through with this funeral....only for Sara to be like "you know....it isnt right that adult Mia doesnt get to be there to see her father laid to rest..." so essentially Sara lives through this funeral twice....is William's kidnapping due to Sara changing the timeline ever so slightly? 

No reason to think that Sara didn't bring Mia to the funeral the first and only time Sara attended.  

1 hour ago, Primal Slayer said:

And is E2 Laurel still having to use E1 Laurel's identity? Does Star City know that Laurel is dead or is she thought to be alive? 

 

Yikes.  Can you imagine how differently E2 Laurel claiming to be the original Laurel had to have gone down if Tommy had been married to E1 Laurel?  How in hell could this have been the first time he met or knew about her?  In the new timeline they would have had to tell Tommy the truth or they would have been truly horrible people.  And there's no way BS could have fooled Tommy that she was his Laurel even if did fool all of Star City that she was a lawyer, lol.  

27 minutes ago, scarynikki12 said:

I think Cassidy in particular would be unable to keep that a secret if she had heard even a rumor that they hated Laurel given how attached she is to the character and seems to keep hoping she'll return. So, I agree that it seems like they hate her the most but it's just them being over the top in making it clear that she won't return.

I get the impression from things that KC has said that she kind of forgets that they are not the same person.  Like in the retrospective special, if you hadn't watched Arrow you would never know that she was not the Laurel that existed in season one.  There's no mention of the first iteration being killed off and staying dead.

Edited by BkWurm1
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Side random observation that kept making me laugh: William's and Mia's reactions to hearing about Sara's "death" in Lance's speech. I had to rewind because I started laughing so hard, probably because I was starting to get emotional, but even rewatching the ending on it made me laugh XD

Edited by way2interested
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4 minutes ago, way2interested said:

Side random observation that kept making me laugh: William and Mia's reaction to hearing about Sara's "death" in Lance's speech. I had to rewind because I started laughing so hard, probably because I was starting to get emotional, but even rewatching the ending on it made me laugh XD

Mia's "WTF Auntie Sara you've left some things out" face was great. I'm taking it as further proof that they need to coordinate more Sara/Mia family-ship time.

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I will say that Amell's comment about "we will end the way we started" was nicely played. At first glance it would seem that maybe the final scene would be in a forest, or with Oliver running, or maybe just a callback to the pilot. Instead it was a return to when Oliver first saw Felicity (the office) and when they first met (ponytail, red pen, pink shirt). When that came out we all should have guessed since he's been adamant that the show truly began in episode 3 when Emily arrived. His trolling is top notch and he should teach classes.

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41 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

 

No reason to think that Sara didn't bring Mia to the funeral the first and only time Sara attended. 

MG stated that Sara's went to the future after the first time to retrieve Mia but they left it out.

Quote

TVLINE | Just to clarify about Mia’s return to 2020…. When the Green Arrow and the Canaries spinoff pilot episode opened, Laurel and Dinah had already attended a funeral for Oliver that Mia was not at, right…?
Yes, and I’m glad you mentioned that. This episode really went over in time; even though it was a short script, we really let all the moments breathe, and there was an exchange when Sara comes to pick up Mia [in 2040]. Sara said, “I time-traveled here… to take you to your dad’s funeral,” and there was a couplet that we had to cut for time where Mia says, “But I wasn’t at my dad’s funeral,” and Sara says, “That’s what I’m here to fix. Time travel, remember?”
https://tvline.com/2020/01/28/arrow-series-finale-recap-burning-questions-answered/

 

Edited by Primal Slayer
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2 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Really, I just didnt want this ending for Oliver. I didnt want him to die, no matter how noble of a death it was, before he got a chance to really know some peace. I wanted him and Felicity to get to live a life together, to get to raise his children, to get to know the baby Diggles, find out what he wants to do when he doesent have to beat the shit out of bad guys all of the time, work on cooking and dream journals, be a mentor and a dad. Going back to season one times just makes it even sadder for me. He was so convinced that he was made to save the city and then die after he accomplished his goal, and while he did become healthier and happier and have many more happy days...that is basically what happened. He saved the city/multiverse, and he died. I am glad that he at least gets to be with Felicity again, and has been posthumously hailed as a hero, but I thought that the best end for his story, the story of a deeply traumatized and mentally tortured person who didnt care about his own life and seemed to at times have serious death seeker tendencies and was drenched in self loathing and was seemingly desperate to sacrifice his life, actually managed to finish his fight alive, found a family and friends and things that he loved that didnt involve revenge or justice, and went on to learn to see the beauty in not only life, but in his OWN life, and that he has more to give the world than his own life.   

👏👏👏

I don’t think I’ll ever feel that wasn’t the right pay off. And looking at the pictures I can’t help thinking, poor Moira, resurrected to have to place Oliver’s empty casket into the ground for the second time.

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Man, I sobbed for the last 20 minutes. I loved this stupid show and  this Oliver Queen is my 3rd favorite fictional character.

Stephen Amell was brilliant from the pilot to the end and I so happy to have  experienced this from the pilot to this episode (even some of the terrible episodes).

I fully buy into Mia as the new Green Arrow.

I'm a little overwhelmed so I'll come back later to comment more coherently.

Farewell, Oliver. I will miss you.

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Lots of scrambled thoughts about the finale, but I'll refrain since many have raised them, too.  But I definitely agree the pacing was odd.  And while I liked the ending with Felicity and Oliver, I hated the pull-out shot of Star City.  It was just an ugly image as the last frame for me.  Like we already knew they were in a rendering of Star City since they were in Oliver's office at Queen Consolidated - there was no information being relayed.  And as much as the city was a huge part of Oliver's purpose, it was the ugliest representation of Star City I think I've ever seen.  Just all CGI skyscrapers and metro buildings.  I would have rather ended on a close-up of Felicity and Oliver.

I still can't get over the "no crime" overnight transformation of Star City.  They keep saying it like there is truly NO crime!  Maybe you don't have evil mega-villains like Malcolm and Damian Darhk, but really?  No gangs?  No alcohol, drug, or poverty-related crimes?  Rapists and sexual assaulters are just keeping it in their pants and now believe no means no?  No domestic violence?  (OK, I'll concede that the show never really broached those last two in the first place.)  And no other criminals move in to fill that power vacuum and claim Star City as their territory for TWENTY YEARS, all because of a sacrifice made by someone who isn't around to stop them from committing future crime?

And I wish Roy had been able to keep his arm.  Sure, he's doing well enough with the robotic ARGUS arm (he's able to tattoo Dinah with it!), but I guess Oliver could bring back entire people, but not "just" limbs.  Roy losing his arm was not an event that could not be undone or else it would materially affect Oliver's trajectory.

Obviously the decisions they made with bringing characters back are just supposed to be satisfying on the surface and don't hold up at all if you think about it any more, so I guess that's what I'll do.  I don't think Thea would have become Speedy, had those scars on her face, gone through the same relationship ups and down with Roy, etc. once Moira didn't die, but sure, fine.  But best wishes to the Harper-Queens.  Or Queen-Harpers.

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5 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

Can you imagine how differently E2 Laurel claiming to be the original Laurel had to have gone down if Tommy had been married to E1 Laurel?  How in hell could this have been the first time he met or knew about her?  In the new timeline they would have had to tell Tommy the truth or they would have been truly horrible people.  And there's no way BS could have fooled Tommy that she was his Laurel even if did fool all of Star City that she was a lawyer, lol. 

Obviously after E1 Laurel died, Tommy moved to Chicago to be a doctor, which is like a whole other network universe and so he didn’t hear anything about E2 Laurel? I have no idea. I’m confused. 

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OMG He had her wear the same earrings as when they first met!

THE SAP!!!

And when Felicity being true Felicity made that comment about the afterlife and his office, he had the most indulgent, smitten smile on his face.

It was like: I paid my dues folks now I'm get to watch Felicity be cute for eternity.

I NEED Olicity after life shenanigans from all the fanfic writers out there so link them please  in the fanfic thread if you find any good ones!!!!!!

***

They could have done anything to resurrect E1 Laurel and still have their precious pilot! They could have Tommy say she was on bedrest with twins and couldn't be at the funeral. Doesn't affect E2 version at all.

I guess Oliver was too busy recreating what secretarial outfit he was going to dress Felicity in for their reunion than resurrect E1. Hee

 

 

 

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I would say E1 Laurels death impacted Saras turn to becoming a hero. Just like Oliver had to see his dad die, and Barry his mother die. Laurel had to die for Sara to become a hero in the light. 

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This is such a niggly nitpick but, having watched the end scene three times now - I wish wardrobe had done a better job matching Felicity’s shirt to the one she wore in 1x03. 

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I found that very underwhelming. I think they were going for the Lost type finale, where we ignore the fact that none of this makes sense and we don’t really like it because they gave us the emotional payoff.

I agree with others that I was never going to love this because I fundamentally disagree with the showrunners that Oliver’s story had to end with his death. To me, it’s actually the easier answer and shows less creativity. But even if I agreed, it was always going to be a hard sell to have a finale of Arrow that featured almost no present day Oliver, and I don’t think they nailed it at all. The whole thing just felt kind of...meh. Even the last two brilliant minutes that relied on the amazing chemistry EBR and SA have always had weren’t enough to justify the episode as a whole.

Plus, Oliver can bring back Tommy, his mom, Lance, and the mansion (and his dad’s company) but not Roy’s arm? And if QC hadn’t gone under, Ray Palmer never would have-you know what? Never mind. It’s not even worth thinking this absurdity through.

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3 minutes ago, Trisha said:

This is such a niggly nitpick but, having watched the end scene three times now - I wish wardrobe had done a better job matching Felicity’s shirt to the one she wore in 1x03. 

It's her "Felicity I do believe in magic" top!!!!!!

I'm going to say that Oliver got confused and merged two early Felicity outfits together! Because he actually got on one knee when she was wearing this top.

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Wow...so, that was the finale. Here's the thing about it: it wasn't the worst finale I've seen, but it felt like it could have been done better. There's a lot that I actually liked about it (the last fifteen minutes, a lot of the cameos), but the pacing was off. I agree with everyone that it should have been a two hour finale. But also, it needed more Oliver. 

I think one of my issues is that I was thinking WAY too much about how Oliver's journey worked with SOOO many people being brought back. I mean, Moira's death was SIGNIFICANT for Oliver's journey. Tommy's death was even MORE significant to Oliver's journey. Quentin...ok, Quentin being alive doesn't really change anything. Rory not losing his rags here doesn't change too much, besides how he left the team. So, as much as I loved seeing Moira and Tommy, it just made me wonder how much Oliver's story had changed with these two major resurrections. 

There was a bit too much going on in the finale. I don't think we needed to see William get kidnapped AND have Oliver's funeral and goodbye scenes all stuffed within the hour. Again, if it had been a two hour finale, they could have paced it out better. Have the first hour be saving William and, thus, getting more action stuff, and then have the second hour dedicated to the cameos and saying goodbye to Oliver. Or, maybe erase the kidnapping plot in general, since it provided absolutely nothing, and just had the first hour show the changes made. That way, Stephen could be interacting way more with the cast. Maybe show Tommy fighting alongside Oliver or something.

There was plenty of Mia, but for someone who is still very new to the series, I don't think I needed as much of her as we got. I think I needed to see more Diggle, more Felicity, more Thea and Roy. You know, the characters that have been there since early season 1. And I say this as a Mia fan...I just don't think she needed to have such a prominent role. 

They really didn't use Oliver all that much in this finale when it should have had plenty of him. His death...disappoints me, but not as much as how they used him HERE. I wish they found a way to have Stephen interact with everyone. Have Constantine bring back his soul for 12 hours to say goodbye or...something. Anything than what we got, which was just flashbacks and scenes being reshot. 

The cameos in general were ok. I loved seeing Rory return with his rags. I didn't like how they had him prop up Rene, of all people. No, show, Rene is NOTHING like Oliver Queen. Being a bit broody doesn't equal Oliver Queen. I loved seeing Moira and Tommy.

As someone who actually did ship Laurel/Tommy back in season 1 (Katie works REALLY well with Colin), I was happy to hear how Tommy/Laurel ended up together before her death. But still, I actually felt a bit bad that E1 Laurel remained dead. I mean, I didn't like her all that much, but I felt like I would have been fine with a Laurel resurrection. Siren could have still went to the future for the spinoff and Laurel/Tommy could have lived happily ever after offscreen. And Laurel's death didn't change Oliver's path much, so her being alive wouldn't have changed anything, other than Siren's self angst. 

Queen Mansion lives! That was great to see. I also liked Thea/Roy's engagement. They've had a very rocky relationship but I knew that the series couldn't end with them being apart. The issue is that it felt a bit rushed (again, due to time constraints). 

A lot of other solid cameos, including from Nyssa, Talia, Emiko, Barry, and Kara. I hope there's a deleted scene of Barry apologizing to Sara Diggle, though!

As for the Diggle as Green Lantern...that's more of an Easter Egg than anything, so I'm not sure how I feel about it. It felt randomly thrown in.

The Oliver/Felicity ending was great. Sure, I question 2040 Felicity leaving her kids to go basically die, but it was still a nice ending. 

Ultimately, it was a decent finale. But it could have been a lot better. 

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I swear, the amount of time that we saw Oliver--and not flashback Oliver was about the same amount of time as I we got to see Michael Rosenbaum's return as Lex in Smallville's series finale. Meaning BARELY. Even if Oliver got me with those smitten 😍

Just not enough of Felicity.

And I could have done without the filler subplots, too.

I won't lie. When I saw that blast of light in the sky that Diggle saw, while we heard his voiceover, I fully expected to see OLIVER show up. Not the Lantern ring, or some dying Lantern, passing the ring to John.

And does Show expect me to believe that Oliver's sacrifice meant Star City had been turned into some Utopia, where everyone liked each other and there was no crime? NONE whatsoever? Just like @sweetandsour said? Ridiculous. And so, because there's NO CRIME, Dinah's gonna reject the offer of Chief, which had me laughing my ass off, and move on to some other city where there IS crime she can fight? Whatthefuckever.

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1 hour ago, Mellowyellow said:

It's her "Felicity I do believe in magic" top!!!!!!

Oh my god, it is!! I totally missed that and now I love it even more. You saved the ending for me, @Mellowyellow!

Also, here's that scene without any music:

 

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1 hour ago, Lady Calypso said:

The cameos in general were ok. I loved seeing Rory return with his rags. I didn't like how they had him prop up Rene, of all people. No, show, Rene is NOTHING like Oliver Queen. Being a bit broody doesn't equal Oliver Queen. I loved seeing Moira and Tommy.

Just before I watch it properly again to process it this bit made me roll my eyes so hard last night. It reminded me of the interviews RG was doing early on about how Rene was the new Oliver. Like he had been given talking points by somebody and he was hyped for that. And he just could NOT understand why all people wanted to talk about @ him and asking him in interviews about why Rene kept calling Felicity "Blondie" and being rude after Felicity asked him not to and when was he going to apologise etc. He couldn't figure it out. So they put it in the actual show now. 🙄Well they had to spell it out or no one would notice it. 

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12 hours ago, quarks said:

I know the answer to this is "did you see our existing guest star budget?" and in the case of at least one actor, scheduling difficulties, but, gotta say, where were Team Flash (with the exception of Ralph) and Ray and, well, Malcolm and Slade? 

So........ we get Ragman at the end, but we don't get Chris Chance, the Human Target???

I'm just going to pretend that Chance was actually Barry in disguise.

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13 hours ago, apinknightmare said:

Same and same. What I saw of the last scene was nice - until the local affiliate cut in over the rest of it with a Blackish commercial, thank you for the final middle finger CW, I will never watch your dumb channel again!

Same. You must live in my area. I stopped liking Olicity several seasons ago, but still! Way to ruin the last minute of a series finale, local affiliate 😒

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I’m glad the reviews for the finale seem to be really positive. I've been seeing a lot of people on Twitter complain about the ending/final few seasons in terms of how Arrow lost its gritty realism when it spun off all the other shows. And I don’t disagree with that. However knowing that MG and SA have talked for YEARS about how they wanted Oliver to die at the end, I think the other shows, the crossover and the supernatural elements saved Arrow’s finale (for me, at least). Had this remained a gritty, realistic show, Oliver might have just ended up dead in the finale. As it is, they left it really open, made him a god, and pretty much ensured we have not seen the last of this character.

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21 minutes ago, Trisha said:

However knowing that MG and SA have talked for YEARS about how they wanted Oliver to die at the end,

Maybe it's Pollyanna-ish of me, but I will never understand or accept why the DEATH of a HERO=the ending hero deserves because true heroes MUST DIE to be, well heroes. And for Oliver specifically, after EVERYTHING he went through, he fucking deserved a HAPPY ENDING where he didn't DIE.

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13 hours ago, statsgirl said:

In the Paradise dimension. Oliver told Felicity that he wanted to meet her again where he had first seen her. Felicity said that that would have been 7 floors down in the IT department, not his mother's office, and Oliver replied that they had all the time in the world for him to explain.

There was a split second shot of a very young (long haired) Oliver peeking around a corner into the office at Felicity--presumably we're supposed to think that Oliver had been in the building before the events of this series took place and saw her then?  (Did *we* see that at some point?  It's been a long time...)

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7 minutes ago, janeta said:

There was a split second shot of a very young (long haired) Oliver peeking around a corner into the office at Felicity--presumably we're supposed to think that Oliver had been in the building before the events of this series took place and saw her then?  (Did *we* see that at some point?  It's been a long time...)

It was a clip from 314.

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Here's a youtube video of the final 810 scene:

(Random Clips)

Partial 810 ending script that MG tweeted last year:
810_scriptpage.thumb.jpg.b5cd88c7b3d7ddb7e83bebb78b089295.jpg

And here's the full flashback scene from 314 (The Return), where Oliver saw Felicity for the very first time, when he secretly visited Starling City at one time during his five years away (for an ARGUS mission):

(Olicity Queen)

Script page for that 314 scene:
314_scriptpage_1.thumb.jpg.46a63240bea475268fa07dbcd321739c.jpg

Finally, here are the Olicity scenes from 103 and 509, so you can compare outfits...

(Olicity Queen)

(Olicity Queen)

Edited by tv echo
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I felt so emotional, sad and happy, after watching this episode - I'm not sure why. These are fictional characters on a TV show, right? 😉 

So Oliver got BOTH Tony Stark's ending AND Steve Rogers' ending - he both died a hero and ended up with the love of his life.

That was a bittersweet Olicity ending. So happy that Oliver & Felicity get to spend forever with each other in the afterlife/ paradise. Btw, they're both wearing their wedding rings in that final scene. It sounds like Oliver is still the Spectre, since Oliver's voiceover intro refers to himself as "a Spectre" in the present tense:

Oliver (voiceover): "My name is Oliver Queen. After five years in hell, I returned home with only one goal - to save my city. For eight years, I've fought alongside brave men and women striving for justice. But then a Crisis came, and I had to become someone else. I had to become something else. I made the ultimate sacrifice, which helped birth an entirely new universe. Now my friends and family will have to go on without me. And although I have become a Spectre, there is a part of me that will always be the Green Arrow."

I'd like to think that Spectre Oliver has the power to transport himself and Felicity back to Earth-Prime or anywhere in the multiverse, if he wanted or needed to. His physical body is not buried in the casket (Tommy said it was filled with mementos), so no body, no death... Also, we didn't see Felicity die. She simply walked through the portal. So they both arguably still have their physical bodies. In post-finale interview articles (like this one), MG said that Oliver has become "something else" and that the "whole point of making him the Spectre was just to give us opportunities, to give us story opportunities, because who knows what's going to happen in the future?"

Why did Mia have a memory nightmare about Robert Queen shooting himself on the life raft? Did she inherit all of Oliver's memories along with his Green Arrow mantle?

It's strange that Barry attended Oliver's funeral without his wife Iris.

Edited by tv echo
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13 hours ago, quarks said:

Nope, neither husband. Spectre Oliver apparently decided that if he changed the past and let his father live, he would never become the Green Arrow and thus never become Spectre, dooming the universe, so, Robert Queen stayed dead. 

Second husband Walter Steele is still alive, but I'm guessing that the filming schedule just didn't work out for actor Colin Salmon.

 

 

Thanks. I did mean Walter as I think it was necessary for his real father to stay dead, but I often think in addition to many other creative decisions, that instead of turning Diggle into more of a father than a brother at times, they would have benefitted from having Walter be one adult male that Oliver could trust.  It never made sense to me that when they lost money, etc. he would not have offered help...unless I missed an episode where he was evil too...besides, I've always liked Colin Salmon....

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Okay, so the first half was pretty messy and I think they did the "William kidnapped" plot to bring everyone together for one final "mission". But this episode didn`t really need a mission, just having emotional tributes with Oliver and all the characters would have perfectly fine. And they already had a reason to bring everyone together: Oliver`s funeral. 

But I legit started bawling when Lance gave his speech at the memorial. The music by Blake Neely?, which I always really liked, ticked it up another notch. It hit me even more than when Dig did at the funeral. Oliver earning the respect and friendship of Quentin Lance was one of the best ongoing subplots of the entire show and it had beautiful pay-offs - like gifting Oliver the family watch? at his wedding reception because Quentin said there was no parent there for Oliver and it just didn`t feel right. The speech at the memorial just reminded me of that moment.      

As has been pointed out bringing back Moira and Tommy makes no sense because their death were super-impactful on Oliver. I actually wish we hadn`t seen the flashback of Oliver tackling Slade to save Moira (and knocking out super-Mirakuru-d Slade with one punch, uh-uh), just leave it open how she survived. Because I think with that scene in the Finale, they couldn`t/wouldn`t have Slade at the memorial/funeral and I wanted him there. He got back to normal once the mirakuru was out of his system and this could have happened here as well. But he was like Anatoly, one of my favourite bromances that got broken and later mended. 

I did like the funeral cameos we did get. Anatoly, the Al Ghul sisters - though what was with that weird "your husbands passing" dialogue? And Nyssa pointing out she had no feelings for Oliver, of course she did, nothing romantic but friendship. Why else would she pay her respects?

Barry and Kara being there felt fitting. Barry and Felicity had a nice little scene. 

Sara taxi-ing Mia was a bit weird but it led to a wonderful moment with Mia and Felicity. 

Overall, I do like that Oliver`s struggles and sacrifices are acknowledged and his legacy is that of a hero. And he even got his sliver of personal happiness at the end with Felicity. The callback to that cute scene where he saw her pre-show was very sweet. 

I wish they had done a better final shot than a really ugly-ass skyline of Star City.

The Laurel clusterfuck is just unsolveable at this point. I disliked the E1 version in Seasons 1 and 2 and really resented Sara being killed for her but by the time they killed her in Season 4, I liked her fine. Yet since then they have, IMO unintentionally, screwed over that character horribly. Lance projecting on E2 Laurel was one thing but basically telling him he prefers her? Yikes. Even the marriage with Tommy feels weird unless Oliver fixed up her feelings and that she only ever loved Oliver. Granted, she could have grown to truly love Tommy but then I wanted/needed to see that.

Roy and Thea getting a happy end. Yay. Expected but nevertheless yay. 

Overall, I get logistics and budget but I would have loved to seen a more visual acknowledgment of the show at the funeral, namely as I said Slade (represending Season 1 and 2), Tatsu representing Season 3. From Season 4 onwards they had it covered with Anatoly and the noobs. Even Emiko for Season 7.

The Green Lantern thing was more of a weird addendum. 

Rory was also more or less wasted and lets never speak of the Rene being like Oliver line. Nope.

This concludes Arrow. It was some great times, some not so great times but ultimately, I`m very glad I went on that journey. Several of the characters became very dear to me and in the end, I`m maybe not completely happy but content with where they ended up. 

In a way it played like the Vampire Diaries Finale couple years ago, messy final plot with some tearjerkers at the end. 

Have the writers failed this show when all is said and done? Not for me. 

Edited by Aeryn13
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13 hours ago, Chaser said:

Guys guys guys...Arrow ended with Olicity. The whole series. The whole shebang. Married. Parents. Saving the Mutiverse. Side by side in paradise, together forever.

Back when you first started shipping it, who would have thought? 

tenor.gif?itemid=15362948

I'm sorry, but I HAD TO.

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28 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I did like the funeral cameos we did get. Anatoly, the Al Ghul sisters - though what was with that weird "your husbands passing" dialogue

I took that as Talia still learning and growing from the Ra’s Daddy’s Girl who was fully indoctrinated into League mentality for over fifty years. She was taught that a League marriage was permanent, end of story. I think she was sincere when she said it so she wasn’t taunting Nyssa for having been forced to marry him. She still has things to learn which is why Nyssa corrected her but she didn’t take offense and wasn’t bothered at meeting Sara (though an acknowledgement that they met when she was a child would have been a good callback) so I think she’ll get there. 

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1 hour ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Maybe it's Pollyanna-ish of me, but I will never understand or accept why the DEATH of a HERO=the ending hero deserves because true heroes MUST DIE to be, well heroes. And for Oliver specifically, after EVERYTHING he went through, he fucking deserved a HAPPY ENDING where he didn't DIE.

Oh I completely agree. But knowing that MG and SA were so adamant that dying was the logical conclusion to his journey, I'm glad they figured out a way to get their cherished death scene(s) while still giving him a happy-ish ending. As much as I'd love to see Oliver raise his kids and live a happy, normal life, Arrow always leans into darkness and angst so this is a surprisingly optimistic, swoon-y ending (in my opinion, anyway). 

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20 minutes ago, scarynikki12 said:

though an acknowledgement that they met when she was a child would have been a good callback

I was so disappointed about that!  I was expecting Talia to say “we’ve met”, when Nyssa introduced them, and then she didn’t! 🤦🏻‍♀️  Oh well.  I guess it was expecting a lot to expect the Arrow writers to remember Legends’ first season when even the Legends writers seem to try their hardest to forget it. 😂🤣

Edited by Starfish35
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1 hour ago, tv echo said:

I'd like to think that Spectre Oliver has the power to transport himself and Felicity back to Earth-Prime or anywhere in the multiverse, if he wanted or needed to

I'm really out of the loop, so my knowledge of this season is mostly what I pick up here and there. I thought the multiverse was no more and they all merged into one. No? 

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10 minutes ago, bijoux said:

I'm really out of the loop, so my knowledge of this season is mostly what I pick up here and there. I thought the multiverse was no more and they all merged into one. No? 

The CW shows' universes all merged into one, so Earth-Prime is basically Earth-CW. But there are other Earths out there, as shown at the end of the COIE crossover, for WB/DC's other superhero shows, streaming series and films.

Edited by tv echo
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