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ElectricBoogaloo

S04.E13: Whenever You're Ready

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2 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

Like many I loved the ending... Chidi's wave analogy was picture perfect... So shout out to the budshists.... Was nick offerman playing himself?  Or a jazzed up Ron Swanson. Because I know hes got that show with Amy P.  And ppl do stuff but Ron was always so handy with wood... Jason's madden game was impossible and amazing.. I paused to look at the stats... About the aftershow... Are Chidi and Janet a thing in real life... Or I should ask is it known... Because if  it wasnt before...  Also boy is that a good looking cast... 

Nick Offerman was playing himself.   He is a woodworker in real life.   

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A really good finale. Philosophy, goodbyes, individual endings that felt individual, so many callbacks, and a couple laughs. Jason accidentally becoming a monk is my favorite part today, but I may have a different one tomorrow.

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I loved the wave metaphor.  I am one who fears death and that actually made me feel a lot better.  

I was kind of expecting a different ending for Eleanor, like she'd have a bigger role in the universe.   When she was talking Gen and said she wouldn't have to hear from them anymore I actually thought she had suggested Gen go through the door and she would become the new judge.

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I loved the finale, except I stuggled with Chidi's decision because I imagine myself and husband in that position and I don't think either of us would leave the other like that, it'd make more sense to me that if you felt at peace and ready to move forward through the door, you'd wait for the other person to also feel that way so you could do it together. I don't know, I guess I struggled with spending eternity with someone but also being at peace about leaving them.

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The arch was built by Michael and even he and Janet had no idea what happens when you walk through it. I can't believe somebody like Chidi would not want to see what the next thing really is after he had spent probably millions of years in the good place and done it all.

Tahani spent all her life doing nothing of substance or productive and she got to do everything mundane and learn new skills till she finally wanted to be an architect so that makes sense.

What you don't see in the show are really old people, babies, pets, reformed rapists running around among their victims, same with killers looking to make amends , or just all your exes you hated or hated you.

If anything I see the good place as just a middle place where you work out all the issues you had in life (closure, forgiveness, that one last chance to spend all the time you needed with the people you loved and lost or that lost you, got to do and see the things you never experience because of life or money). Just like the rules kept good people from going to the good place the people in charge of the good place didn't allow you to go on to the next step which we could not comprehend even if we tried (the meaning of the universe if there is one).

 

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7 hours ago, Whimsy said:

 

18 hours ago, AuxArx said:

I was waiting for our local celebrity Mary Steenburgen to show up, and there she was.

Was the guy at the end, with the mail and the little light following him, anybody?  

I'm pretty sure that was kurt braunohler, although he's not credited with being on the finale (yet, at least)

Yep, that was him; it's up on IMDB now.

Loved seeing Mary Steenburgen!

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38 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

About the aftershow... Are Chidi and Janet a thing in real life... Or I should ask is it known... Because if  it wasnt before... 

"Janet" is married.

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1 minute ago, ClareWalks said:

"Janet" is married.

Yeah I did some Interwebs snooping after my comment... But... That was a lot of contact it distracted me from the farewell special for a bit... Plus my snooping kept showing the both of them next to each other.. Even when it was the full cast.. But hey maybe I'm bugging.. The webs said he was dating someone else as well... That said if I had a lady rubbing my knee/leg area and interlocking my fingers on live tv... My lady may have some questions for me... 

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6 hours ago, LBS said:

My twin sister is dying of stage 4 cancer.  She has a loving husband and 3 kids under 6.  We are only 41. 

I'm so sorry for your loss. I lost my 37 year old niece from stage 4 breast cancer 2 years ago and she had 4 young kids all under the age of 17. She was a beautiful loving person and I'm not a religious person, I don't believe in religion but I do believe we do go somewhere after death where there is no pain only peace and I know she's there.

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I love a show that doesn't explain every little reference to me.  I had to google Gardner Minshew, and that made me happy.  I teared up when Janet and Michael were saying goodbye ("make a doctor's appointment right away") when Janet's voice broke, and I imagined the moment he arrives back to take his test and meets her again for the first time. 

Look, 4 seasons of 22-minute episodes wasn't ever going to Explain It All, and it certainly doesn't line up with my chosen theology.  But the idea of being able to walk into perfect peace and become one with the Universe (or, for me, God) is a very satisfying concept for me.  I would love some version of that to be true. 

I think this finale was a home run.  

It would be nice if such a smart, compassionate, well-written, deep show were given its kudos at next year's Emmys.

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37 minutes ago, The Companion said:

I think that love is still a huge factor here. Eleanor and their relationship IS still the answer, because it is what gets each of them to where they are supposed to be. Chidi gets there by seeing the people he loves together. Eleanor by helping the people she loves along their own journeys.

I see in the final moments of the show an assertion that love doesn't end. Or at least that that love and hope and joy and optimism remain in the universe to help the living along their own paths (in this case literally helping along someone that Eleanor herself loves). All of the "bad" gets worked out by the afterlife in its new state, which implies that ultimately the soul or the personality or whatever these characters were are susceptible to and capable of becoming good. Of becoming "perfect" whatever that means in the context of the personality. And once they are at that point, they rejoin the others to be a force of good in the world. 

This sounds right to me. I'm not religious, and I think death is probably the end. Sometimes imagining the void chokes me up--not in a sentimental sense but in a chicken bone in my throat kind of way. The way I cope with that sensation is to think of death as a skill that can be learned or an accomplishment you're working toward. I'm not special in the way I hoped I would be when I was a child--not an Olympic swimmer or the star of stage and screen. But I reckon I can probably do the thing that every other person who has ever lived has managed. It helps to think we're all in it together. Maybe recognizing that is what we owe to each other.

The more I read everyone's comments, the less ambivalent I am about the finale.

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Regarding the Wave Metaphor. Looks like Chidi may have studied death and what comes next with Professor Det. Fearless

Seriously though, that's how great that metaphor is that I can recall it from the Pilot Episode of a 17-year-old single season (and change) NBC Friday Night Drama.

I knew this was going to be a blubbery episode for me to watch as soon as Janet clued into what Jason was saying, they hit when Dance Dance Resolution performed in front of an adoring crowd in the afterlife. Well done show, well done indeed

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I guess I'm going to land on "it was a good episode of television, and a good few episodes in a below-average season for this show". 

But I hooked a friend on this show, someone who struggles with depression, and that friend really enjoyed this show and these characters, and I'm going to have to give that friend a healthy warning before watching this episode. Maybe save it for an up day. Because I don't necessarily agree with the finale's philosophy. It's certainly not in line with my thoughts. So I'll appreciate it's craft and how well it was written and performed, but, maybe not give this ending much consideration.

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I cried throughout much of the episode, and I started tearing up again reading some of these comments.

In an episode rife with wonderful callbacks and references, my absolute favorite was the Judge wearing an East Dillon Lions T-shirt.

As a nod to that, my all-time favorite show, I can really just sum up my feelings about this current favorite TV show thusly: Clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose.

Team Cockroach forever!! ❤️❤️❤️

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2 hours ago, UNOSEZ said:

Yeah I did some Interwebs snooping after my comment... But... That was a lot of contact it distracted me from the farewell special for a bit... Plus my snooping kept showing the both of them next to each other.. Even when it was the full cast.. But hey maybe I'm bugging.. The webs said he was dating someone else as well... That said if I had a lady rubbing my knee/leg area and interlocking my fingers on live tv... My lady may have some questions for me... 

I haven’t watched the after show yet but just going off of her instagram Darcy is a really affectionate person with everyone. 

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1 minute ago, Dani said:

I haven’t watched the after show yet but just going off of her instagram Darcy is a really affectionate person with everyone. 

Watch the aftershow when u get a chance and get back to me.. Lemme know if I'm buggin or not... 

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2 hours ago, UnknownK said:

Tahani spent all her life doing nothing of substance or productive and she got to do everything mundane and learn new skills till she finally wanted to be an architect so that makes sense.

What you don't see in the show are really old people, babies, pets, reformed rapists running around among their victims, same with killers looking to make amends , or just all your exes you hated or hated you.

If anything I see the good place as just a middle place where you work out all the issues you had in life (closure, forgiveness, that one last chance to spend all the time you needed with the people you loved and lost or that lost you, got to do and see the things you never experience because of life or money). 

 

Although neither did Jason or Eleanor. All three of them spent their time selfishly on earth. Arguably Chidi too, in that he was too in his own head to actually constructively help anyone. (Same with John the gossip blogger and Eleanor's trashbag friends and probably Chidi's too, who had great jobs but didn't exactly spend their spare time running soup kitchens). I think it had to be Tahani because if you asked people "What's paradise like" a lot would say "Have a chance to learn everything in the world" and well, Jason's not that character. 

And we do see old people - Doug Forcett. Chidi even comments that he chose his young body. And the rapists and killers would make their amends in the test period. Also, it's a sitcom. Do you really want to see rapists and killers in a sitcom?

The test is the middle place where you work everything out until you become perfect. The Good Place is the world's best party where you can do literally anything. 

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50 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

Watch the aftershow when u get a chance and get back to me.. Lemme know if I'm buggin or not... 

You're buggin'. It was nothing, honestly.

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9 hours ago, Tetraneutron said:

They addressed that in a pervious episode. Yes, everyone. The really evil people will spend far longer in the bad place than the good people. But they'll all learn eventually. 

She didn't mention her father because her mother was more of a character on the show. 

I don't think the door is really like suicide although I get the comparison. Once you've lived basically forever, experienced all, learned all, and there's nothing left, you're done. You either end it or become a bored mush-brain like Patty or there's something else. It's like finishing. Or like Michael. What was he supposed to do for eternity. (One assumes Tahani would eventually enter the door too). 

Of course people on Earth do need goals to feel useful so you figure there would be a lot of people trying to become architects. Every system in the world eventually has loopholes. 

Her father was on/mentioned multiple episodes and they showed his funeral. Certainly enough that his character was canon and fans would notice his absence when everyone else’s’ family (that appeared on the show) were at least name checked in this episode. 

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1 hour ago, ClareWalks said:

You're buggin'. It was nothing, honestly.

Well I went and looked again... Still rather touchy feely.. But I noticed it escalated when there were wine glasses around.. Dunno how this was shot if it was really live or edited.. So maybe folks had a bit to drink.. I know I'd prob get asked some questions if I was him

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I've been meh on the last 2 seasons, but I'm a "finish what I started" type and was looking forward to the finale.  Now that I've seen it, I wish I hadn't.  It left me feeling down & quite honestly disturbed.  Not what I want in a sit-com.

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12 hours ago, Whimsy said:

I agree.  This felt really rushed to me.  Re: the bolded- I haven't read any interviews so I could be totally off-base, but I didn't think they just continually floated around for eternity.  I thought their essence (or whatever) floated to earth, inspired an act of kindness and then that was it.  Poof.  Gone.  Which, also as an atheist, I am ok with.  

You're probably right - you dissolve into golden lights, float to earth, have a small effect and that's it.

12 hours ago, mikem said:

This episode, particularly the part where Chidi tells Eleanor that he knows he's hurting the people he's leaving behind, but he's just not happy with his existence anymore, was very reminiscent of that play for me, and there's a clear metaphor for Chidi committing suicide there IMO. 

I agree.  I do think the show meant to indicate that Chidi and Jason were "content" rather than "depressed," but to me they seemed sad, not happy.  Janet is NOT A GIRL so when Jason wanted to go she didn't try to talk him out of it, but Eleanor did try to talk Chidi out of it and he just seemed sad and low energy to me.  As if he could no longer get joy out of his relationship with Eleanor or their friends or "traveling" to magnificent locales or any other activity.  To me that is very related to depression, not contentment.  I get that this is supposed to be different because existing in heaven for eternity is way different from existing on earth for a finite time.  But I still see it more as an "I'm tired of this" reaction, not an "I've completed everything" reaction that they were selling.

12 hours ago, luna1122 said:

I also got  the sense that the little twinkly firefly/star thing that Eleanor, and presumably all of them, became was just a one time deal. So she gave up living to get Michael a piece of junk mail? Not satisfying for me.

The idea that your essence (or whatever) just floats to earth and causes one very small, very minor act of kindness and that's it is VERY depressing to me!  Totally agree with you.

I wonder what their essence is supposed to be made of.  It can't be their atoms since their dead bodies were left on earth.

11 hours ago, metalgirl said:

I did not like the finale because I like happy endings.  It would have been better to end the show when they arrived and then everyone gets to be happy forever.  I would have liked the finale to make Michael born a baby and why couldn't the people in heaven choose to be a guardian angel or something.  I don't know. It seemed like a lot of work to finally arrive, get bored, and cease to exist. 

I like the idea of some of them becoming guardian angels for living humans.  This show seemed to subscribe to the idea that once you die you cannot have any more influence on the living - no ghosts, no god controlling things, etc.

Getting too deep into the weeds, I did wonder how Michael was supposed to support himself on earth.  Janet gave him some money but it wasn't clear to me if it was supposed to be enough to support a modest retirement or if it was just enough for him to get a place to live and a few pieces of clothing and some food for a little while but then he'd have to support himself.  He wouldn't have any retirement fund or pension on earth since he didn't exist on earth during his ideal working years.  It must have been meant to replace a modest retirement fund that he wouldn't have otherwise.

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Too Hollywood new-agey for my taste. You spend a thousand years or so in a heaven that is indistinguishable from 2019 Southern California until you grow bored and become a wave or something -- freshman dorm pseudo-Buddhism bs.

Dramatically, though, it kinda worked as meta narrative -- not so much as the characters leaving the afterlife, but as the actors playing these characters leaving their roles.

Not Eleanor leaving her old self behind in order to be transformed into some other form, but rather Kristen Bell leaving the role of Eleanor behind to be transformed into some new character, in whatever her next acting job will be.

As a metaphor for the actors saying goodbye one by one to their roles, Michael Shur saying goodbye to the world he had created, and as we viewers saying goodbye to the show, the finale was effecting.

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Well by the time he was done Chidi had lived and remembered over like 800 lifetimes... All the reboots.. So he had a full existence 

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5 hours ago, UnknownK said:

What you don't see in the show are really old people, babies, pets, reformed rapists running around among their victims, same with killers looking to make amends , or just all your exes you hated or hated you.

There are different neighborhoods in the Good Place, so my guess is the system or possibly architects knows to seperate certain people based on thier files. 

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As I mentioned in last week's episode, my 95 year old Mother Grundoon passed away peacefully 10 days ago.  I honestly wasn't sure I could handle watching the finale live but I am so glad I did.  It was almost as if it were perfectly timed for me.

I laughed and sobbed my way through it.  To some degree it felt like a giant jigsaw puzzle that came together over the past four years.  Maybe not perfectly but dang close.  I thank all the creative people who made this mother forking show a reality.

I have enjoyed sharing the journey with everyone here.  For those who are facing loss (their own or loved ones) or have recently had one, I hope your belief system can bring you peace & light.  For all of us, I wish enough Jeremy Bearimys to accomplish our goals.

 

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1 hour ago, Blue Plastic said:

I did wonder how Michael was supposed to support himself on earth. 

Maybe he bought a sports bar.

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Michael Schur said he got a job as an architect, but they cut that out of the episode.

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I liked it a lot. I think it was a lovely episode that was also a good way to end the show. 

I think the last two seasons were not good, though, and probably should have been combined into one better season. Most of the time on earth stuff could have been cut, and most of the "experiment" part of this season could have been cut. 

The show also sideskirted the existential questions raised by its premise of both good/bad afterlife being so messed up initially.

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I don't think I've ever hated the ending of a show so much in my life (and that includes Lost and Dexter!).

I'd had a longer post written out, but it was just making me angry all over again trying to explain why I feel the way I do, so I deleted it.

Basically, I agree with those who feel like it was glamorizing suicide, and the way it was dressed up in superficial fantasy trappings was nothing but a deeply screwed up, intellectually dishonest distraction.

I like dark, disturbing stories, and I can see a situation where I like a show about a bunch of characters who go around having wacky adventures for a few seasons and then they all kill themselves in the last episode, but it would have to have a massively different tone than this one (and not frame it as some touching, beautiful thing). I just feel like the show essentially lied about what it was, and that annoys me.

Ultimately, I feel like the show was completely pointless and a total waste of time (and at one point, I considered it one of my favorites).

I'm just so, so disappointed.

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24 minutes ago, marina707 said:

Basically, I agree with those who feel like it was glamorizing suicide, and the way it was dressed up in superficial fantasy trappings was nothing but a deeply screwed up, intellectually dishonest distraction.

I see and feel totally the opposite what I got was like a deathbed scene in any number of shows where a beloved elderly family member is surrounded by friends and fam.. And that one special person in their life looks at them.. Holds their hand and says its ok to let go.. You've lived a good life and touched us all etc.. Etc... These characters have existed soooooooooo long.. The diff being we still saw them as young and with things left to accomplish but at least for Chidi Jason and Eleanor they were done... But that's just me

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3 minutes ago, whiporee said:

So, for everyone who thought it dark, or glorifying suicide or that walking through the door meant nothingness or obliteration, I'd politely encourage you to watch it again. Because to quote the famous Spanish moral philosopher Inuedo Montoya, "I do not think it means what you think it means," and I'd hate for your overall impression or enjoyment of the series to be permenantly tainted by reading something into the work that was not actually there. 

As far as I'm concerned, the intention isn't what matters (especially when it has to be explained to me by the showrunners), it's the way I interpreted it that does.  I still have a down feeling from having watched it, life is way too short to subject myself to this episode and that feeling all over again.  I'm happy for people who were happy with the ending, but I was definitely not one of them.

3 hours ago, marina707 said:

I don't think I've ever hated the ending of a show so much in my life (and that includes Lost and Dexter!).

Same

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I think the thing that really throws me off the suicide comparison is that -- they're already dead. Literally. They've been dead for most of the show, aside from the brief period we spent with them on Earth in that experiment. They've existed in the afterlife for an infinite amount of time - I can't remember how many Bearimys we ended at, but I'm pretty sure it had basically been an eternity. And when Eleanor finally went through the door it felt like Michael had already spent quite some time on Earth, so it didn't seem like she went straight for it after he went down there, either. I guess I just don't really see the parallels between a suicide and finally being ready for the next phase of your existence after lifetimes and lifetimes of enjoying paradise.

For those of you who hated it, would you have felt differently if our humans hadn't gone through in the episode? Or is it the whole idea of the "final" door in general?

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26 minutes ago, ByTor said:

As far as I'm concerned, the intention isn't what matters (especially when it has to be explained to me by the showrunners), it's the way I interpreted it that does. 

What's ambiguous about this scene?: Eleanor walks through the door, becomes fireflies. We follow the fireflies to Earth. On Earth, a guy goes through is mail, throws a piece out. One of the fireflies lands near his shoulder. He then reconsiders the mail he threw out. He walks somewhere out of his way to deliver it to a stranger, and giving it to the stranger brings the stranger joy. The man then has a smile of satisfaction for having done a nice thing. 

That is what is presented on the screen. A is followed by B, which is followed by C and so on. There's not much open to interpretation about it. 

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It’s not suicide, it’s nirvana. It’s what the entire show has been working towards.

 

Things I loved:

Janet's “oh dip”

Jason's face when Pillboi said that ghosts are racist

All of Tahani's checklist

Chidi's wave speech

Calendar of Chidi

Jason accidentally becoming Jianyu

Michael Realman

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The firefly thing isn't ambiguous. I got it. Eleanor gave up existing so michael got some meaningless mail that made him smile for a second. But how is that supposed to be worth giving up everything for? I guess, if the fireflies continue to carry this out, that's at least sweet, but I didnt get that impression; it seemed like a one and done. Being happy to give up living (even tho yes, they're already dead, but they're really not) for one brief tiny gesture is something I will probably never get. 

Plus, as it was presented, none of them knew what awaited them, if anything. So they just gave up the existence they had-- and they had AMAZING existences-- for nothing, or at least, for the absolute unknown. They didn't know if it was to go out and become fireflies or guardian angels or just to become nothing. And they did it without apparently a qualm or fear, which I really didn't understand.

No matter WHAT awaited them, and even if it was to become part of some greater good, they were giving up everything, including those who loved them. So okay: Nirvana. The cessation of everything. I'm just not enlightened or deep or selfless enough to see that as a peaceful, happy goal. 

 

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15 hours ago, Wanda said:

Her father was on/mentioned multiple episodes and they showed his funeral. Certainly enough that his character was canon and fans would notice his absence when everyone else’s’ family (that appeared on the show) were at least name checked in this episode. 

Chidi's dad wasn't even mentioned at any point.  Patricia and Dave weren't in the show.  Jason's mom wasn't in the show (though she never was).  Not everyone had their whole family there.  We never even learned if the marbleized Janets that the judge went through searching for the destroy the world clicker were unmarbelized.  We never say any other type of Janet (and they led a rebellion that helped make the new system possible!) and only one other Good Janet.  Lots of things didn't get namechecked, but it didn't bother me.  I don't think leaving out Eleanor's dad was a big deal--he clearly left them early in her life and her mom was the more important parent in forming her issues and personality.

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13 minutes ago, luna1122 said:

 

No matter WHAT awaited them, and even if it was to become part of some greater good, they were giving up everything, including those who loved them. So okay: Nirvana. The cessation of everything. I'm just not enlightened or deep or selfless enough to see that as a peaceful, happy goal. 

 

Nirvana...um....by definition....um....it isn’t the cessation of everything, just self and stepping away from the cycle of reincarnation, which is the cause of suffering. I’m theorizing that if it doesn’t seem like what you want you aren’t ready. 
 

so don’t go through the door. 

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6 minutes ago, Affogato said:

Nirvana...um....by definition....um....it isn’t the cessation of everything, just self and stepping away from the cycle of reincarnation, which is the cause of suffering. I’m theorizing that if it doesn’t seem like what you want you aren’t ready. 
 

so don’t go through the door. 

 You can leave out the "ums"... I'm not a complete idiot. But, yes,  I don't pretend to really understand all the complexities of Buddhism and Nirvana. So yes:  I would not choose to go through that door. I'm just trying to wrap my brain around why our characters would choose to.  

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1 hour ago, whiporee said:

What's ambiguous about this scene?

Nothing is ambiguous to me, i never said it was.  I interpreted the scene as “when you feel content it’s ok to eliminate yourself” which to me is suicide.  You said that the show runners said otherwise, and it makes me angry when self important pseudo-intellectual Hollywood people tell the viewer “oh no no no that’s not what you saw, THIS is”.

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13 minutes ago, luna1122 said:

 You can leave out the "ums"... I'm not a complete idiot. But, yes,  I don't pretend to really understand all the complexities of Buddhism and Nirvana. So yes:  I would not choose to go through that door. I'm just trying to wrap my brain around why our characters would choose to.  

The ums weren’t meant as an insult. It isn’t my thing either, but by definition it is joy without ending for those who can get there. The many reboots in out afterlife are like reincarnations, skipping the years spent as a pink fairy armadillo and that one regrettable reincarnation as a pizza rat. 
 

i see this as being comforting instead of insightful. An afterlife where we can become better people and do everything we want, eat fried chicken or travel the world. But still us, mortal at the end. And people won’t forget us. 
 

the useful part is we can become better people now. 

Edited by Affogato
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43 minutes ago, luna1122 said:

Plus, as it was presented, none of them knew what awaited them, if anything. So they just gave up the existence they had-- and they had AMAZING existences-- for nothing, or at least, for the absolute unknown. They didn't know if it was to go out and become fireflies or guardian angels or just to become nothing. And they did it without apparently a qualm or fear, which I really didn't understand.

I think the one thing they did know was what Janet (I think it was Janet) said last week - that it would be peaceful. When you've "lived" a literal eternity, I guess perhaps the one final thing you would like is peace. Would anyone actually like to live forever? Because that would technically be it if there was no cessation to their existence in the afterlife, living forever. I just cannot imagine wanting that, no matter how wonderful your existence is.

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6 minutes ago, Schweedie said:

I think the one thing they did know was what Janet (I think it was Janet) said last week - that it would be peaceful. When you've "lived" a literal eternity, I guess perhaps the one final thing you would like is peace. Would anyone actually like to live forever? Because that would technically be it if there was no cessation to their existence in the afterlife, living forever. I just cannot imagine wanting that, no matter how wonderful your existence is.

God, aka the judge, wasn’t a role model for eternal life in this show. 

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23 minutes ago, ByTor said:

and it makes me angry when self important pseudo-intellectual Hollywood people tell the viewer “oh no no no that’s not what you saw, THIS is”.

Well the artists and architects of the show did have an at least outline  or whatever you wanna call it for what the ending was supposed to mean.. They're entitled as creators to say.. This is what I was trying to convey.. Especially if in an effort to not be too blunt they went a bit too far in the other direction and opened up the door for ppl to be thinking its a form of suicide ( which I feel we all can agree is not a good thing)  they should be able to speak it plainly... I don't see this " self- important psuedo intellectual Hollywood person" passing down judgment on us common folk... (Tho that sentiment seems to be running wild all over the place)  I see creator talking about their vision for their work... 

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7 minutes ago, Affogato said:

God, aka the judge, wasn’t a role model for eternal life in this show. 

Heh, true. And she was /made/ to be eternal, she never knew anything else, while humans start out with a different perspective. While many of us believe or hope there's a continuation, I don't think any human has the ability to fully grasp the idea of literal eternity.

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5 hours ago, UNOSEZ said:

I see and feel totally the opposite what I got was like a deathbed scene in any number of shows where a beloved elderly family member is surrounded by friends and fam.. And that one special person in their life looks at them.. Holds their hand and says its ok to let go.. You've lived a good life and touched us all etc.. Etc... These characters have existed soooooooooo long.. The diff being we still saw them as young and with things left to accomplish but at least for Chidi Jason and Eleanor they were done... But that's just me

Exactly. I wonder if we saw them physically age if the reaction to the end would be different. If it had been an very old Eleanor deciding to walk through the door would there be the same comparison happening to suicide?

2 hours ago, whiporee said:

What's ambiguous about this scene?: Eleanor walks through the door, becomes fireflies. We follow the fireflies to Earth. On Earth, a guy goes through is mail, throws a piece out. One of the fireflies lands near his shoulder. He then reconsiders the mail he threw out. He walks somewhere out of his way to deliver it to a stranger, and giving it to the stranger brings the stranger joy. The man then has a smile of satisfaction for having done a nice thing. 

That is what is presented on the screen. A is followed by B, which is followed by C and so on. There's not much open to interpretation about it. 

For me there was a lot ambiguous in that scene. How many of those fireflies were Eleanor? What happened to the firefly after it inspired the idea? We followed one light that inspired one idea but do not know if that was the end. The interpretation of exactly what that means will vary from person to person. Those inclined to see “death” as an ending will see it one way and those who view “death” as a transition will see it another way.

As with everything else on this show everyone will have a different reaction to the ending based in their own personal philosophy. 

Edited by Dani
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34 minutes ago, Affogato said:

God, aka the judge, wasn’t a role model for eternal life in this show. 

She always seemed to be having a good time tho. And she could conjure up Timothy olyphant whenever she wanted to. 

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My head soundtrack to the end of the episode was "Time" by The Alan Parsons Project.

In any event, all I can say is that if there is an afterlife I hope it is structured like the one Team Cockroach came up with, including the final door.  Being able to step into non-existence when when is at peace and satisfied and feels one has nothing more do to sounds wonderful.

Edited by QuantumMechanic
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RE Eleanor "being left" by Chidi, and how sad that made her (and me, at first): I think, now, that for Eleanor to really be healed of her lifetime trauma, she had to both experience real love from others, and also discover that she was able to embody love within herself, so that she wasn't dependent on a particular external source. As long as she defined her happiness as CHIDI, there was always an element of... fear, or dependency, or incompletion? But once she experienced the pain of Chidi leaving, she did discover that love was available to her even in his absence. That's an amazing freedom to have within  yourself, to realize you don't have to cling, you will be okay no matter what comes and goes. It actually made her complete, in a way.

I think it's a both/and situation: she needed to have ALL the experiences, of being loved by someone else AND of being okay without that person.

RE the fireflies: I saw it as not just one tiny act, but that the sparks (not just one tiny spark, but many sparks equivalent to all of Eleanor)-- proportionate to all her Bearamies of existence-- going into the world and being gifted to others in multiple ways. It's like if you become perfect and your perfection adds momentum to the perfecting of everyone else's character and experience of existence.

RE suicide vs Nirvana: I 100% thought the show might be interpreted as glorifying suicide, and that worries me even now. I'm very glad to read the post from someone who has experience with depression and suicidal ideation and didn't have that reaction!

I am not trying to convince anyone who thinks otherwise, but for those who don't really get what made me personally react more toward the bliss/Nirvana side, but who are curious about it, this is what I can say about that issue....

Have you ever had a moment where you felt totally at one with someone else? Maybe when you were in love, or during sex. Or just... any time you felt really happy, in a moment you wanted to last forever? That is bliss. And I think that if you got to where you had absolutely gotten to that point, and it DID last forever, you would have nothing left to "do" or strive for. It would all be the same-- in a good way. It's not boredom.

What I think the show was trying to portray, and maybe it didn't succeed for everyone, but this is how I took it, is that it's like after a certain point you can no longer maintain your finite form because your bliss exceeds what you can finitely contain. And so you kind of turn into pure energy and it rains down on others, and helps them get a glimmer of that oneness/kindness/happiness/perfection, which adds momentum to their own journey toward that state.

And once you get to that point, trying to contain it amounts to resistance, or struggle, like trying to hold back the tide.

What I find most interesting about the way the show handled it, is that they made it a conscious choice for people to allow themselves to burst into fireflies, rather than something that just kind of happens when they attain a certain degree of "completion".

I think that element of choice was supposed to make it more comforting to people, so they didn't feel like anything was being forced on them. But it accidentally made a lot of people see it as a glorification of suicide, and obscured the bliss part.

The choice wasn't a full choice, though. If you tried to go through too soon, or inappropriately, or for the wrong reasons, you somehow couldn't do it. Michael tried that, and it didn't work. Tahani thought she was ready but then she suddenly realized she wasn't. Jason was ready but then he stopped so he could give Janet the necklace, and yet he didn't go back-- he stayed in the peaceful place of bliss until Janet returned to the doorway.

I think the doorway and the fireflies, and how they were shown to operate, tried to show that, once you get to a certain point, nature takes its course one way or another. And what the show was trying to offer was that you can't end it too soon, or in the wrong way, and you can't go back, or stay too long, but when it's time, when everything is perfect, it just happens, and what happens is your perfection overflows yourself and contributes to others.

I think that making it a choice also made it seem like a rejection of the happiness they'd achieved, rather than like a natural evolution to the next phase of existence.

If the show had made it so that people who had reached their absolute perfection just spontaneously popped and turned into sparks that landed everywhere and made others happier, I wonder how that would have been received. Would it have looked different? It would not have invoked the suicide comparison, but it might have set off a feeling of anxiety, never knowing when it would happen.

There might not be a way to portray these ideas that would work perfectly.

 

On 1/31/2020 at 7:27 AM, Chaos Theory said:

when The  judge Said that the group had saved the afterlife but it was their tone.  

I loved that so much! Things like that are what made the show stay grounded and funny despite its other aspirations.

Also, I really want the sweater Eleanor wore when she was getting ready to go through the door, with a rainbow design on the chest. It was subtle enough not to shout "fairy time!" but still had the symbolism.

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