S39.E13: Mama, Look at Me Now

[JudyObscure]

35 minutes ago, meep.meep said:

?

I think people who pronounce it "jury" are much much worse.

Oh, jury is definitely worse, but it's supposed to be jew-el-ry, not jew-la-ry.

I wanted more swimming challenges, too. Elizabeth and Janet were both things of beauty in the water.

[RescueMom]

2 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

 

I wanted more swimming challenges, too. Elizabeth and Janet were both things of beauty in the water.

For sure. Can you imagine them not doing tons of water challenges had Ozzy been playing? But the kick-ass female swimmers only got a couple.

[ForeverAlone]

After this season, I really do think that if Survivor does continue, future female players need to look hard at this season and think about their strategy. Because yeah, there were plenty of female threats to win this game this season, and they were all voted out. At this point, I do think that the clearest path for a woman to win is to form a strong women's alliance and run the game. Even if they are linked to a popular dude like Lauren was with Tommy, said dude is likely to want to get rid of her before the finals (like Tommy, since he didn't want to go to the end with Lauren), and we have not seen how the jury reacts to such a strong pair.

 

I mean, taken individually I can see why each Final 3 woman hasn't received votes for the past several seasons (since 35).  But at this point, there is a definite pattern going on, with those women who can win not making it to the end for the most part, and the only way I see around it is for those smart, strong, strategic women to band together and run the game. There was so much talk this season about how talking about women's alliances are sexist, but that talk is more likely to put women off from forming one. The reason they are so feared, is that even though they don't happen all THAT often, they are very effective, especially in the post merge. 

[Ellee]

1 hour ago, RoxiP said:

Honestly I think Noura had gotten on their very last nerves throughout the game so they didn't want to vote for her.

Sorry I didn’t mean voting for Noura to win. I meant that the women should have allied together and voted out the men first and then fought it out. 

[Bryce Lynch]

15 hours ago, Rachel RSL said:

I’m so glad that my office’s Christmas dinner was tonight so I could record the show and fast forward through most of it. What a crappy end to an exhausting season.  Out of the final 3, I think Tommy deserved to win the least. Like, what did he actually do?! It’s bull that Noura didn’t get a single vote when she actually, in my opinion, played a better game and won more challenges than Tommy. But I’m going to chalk that up to her personality just being too....Noura. 

I was so glad to see Lauren go. What an entitled brat, sobbing about how Noura said she was her #1 but didn’t choose her. Please...was Noura ever your #1? No? Then take a seat.

I’m just glad it’s over. This season has been emotionally draining and, while I genuinely appreciate all the intelligent, mature discussions we’ve had here, I really hope next season returns us to our usual light-hearted snark.

I can't stand Tommy, but among the 3 mutts at FTC, he probably deserved to win based upon his ability to somehow manipulate the other idiots in his alliance to play like they wanted him to win more than they wanted to win themselves.   

It reminded me of a much more low key version of Boston Rob, on Redemption Island.  For weeks, the obvious move was to vote him out, but he somehow convinced his weak minded alliance mates to clear his path to the $1 million, while he backstabbed them one by one.  

At least with Rob, I could see how he did it.  He was the experienced one, and has a forceful personality.  He also pretended to have bonds with all of them and convinced them they were his #1, and came up with stuff like the "buddy system" to intimidate alliance members into not even talking with outsiders  

I don't really get how Tommy pulled it off.  

Tommy and Rob would make great cult leaders.   Tommy might even be better, because nobody would even suspect they were in a cult.  

[violet and green]

Thinking back to the tribal where (gasp! how dare they!) they were going to get Tommy out - and instead Dean ratted on the plan and then shrieking Noura outed Elaine's idol, causing it to get burned... And down fell all the dominoes.

Imagine if just one of them had shut the fuck up.

Instead, we got this final three. Whiny, petulant, entitled Tommy and his two suckups! Ugh.

It was truly bizarre that Lauren whined - having been on an island reliant on it for over a month and knowing this was part of the final game - that she'd never made fire! Entitlement in action.

Bizarre that Tommy gave slimy Dean his clues to the pink/red trail of advantage at such a time! Ditto.

Bizarre that Dean couldn't have parlayed his sneaky moves into a better final tribal presentation.

Bizarre that no-one gave Noura a vote, when even though she played the game like a whirling dervish on crack, she still fanangled her way to the end, along with achieving some well-timed and deserved immunity wins.

If I'd had to choose from those three - none of whom in my world would have been within a sniff of the final three - I would have chosen Noura, the sparkly goat, over the sulky goat or the slimy goat.

 

 

 

[Rachel RSL]

3 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Ironically Noura was in the best position to make a case for herself versus the two men on either side of her in terms of game, but she is just so incoherent and manic she's incapable of threading together a simple argument without going off on a million tangents and ending up saying nothing that makes any sense.

This is what kills me.  I truly believe that Noura absolutely could have won if she had only been able to articulate all her moves and reasoning.  Combine that with her challenge wins, she would have been golden.  Sadly, Noura is Noura and you knew her final TC was going to be a big jumbled mess.

[violet and green]

I thought it was sweet when she made her final statement somewhat articulately and Jeff said, Well done.

[iMonrey]

Quote

It was truly bizarre that Lauren whined - having been on an island reliant on it for over a month and knowing this was part of the final game - that she'd never made fire! Entitlement in action.

Yeah, I forgot about that. When she was on the beach crying about it and saying she never once made fire the whole time she was on the island, I thought "Well, maybe you should have." So many of these people claim to be fans of the game. What do we end up saying, season after season? Learn how to make fire.

Quote

I thought it was sweet when she made her final statement somewhat articulately and Jeff said, Well done.

I didn't think her final statement made any more sense than all her other blather. It was just shorter. "I gotta be me." Well, in Noura's case, being herself means being inconsistent, unreliable, and incoherent. That's not a winning combination. What she should have tried to sell the jury is how she deliberately made herself both a target and a goat at the same time, keeping herself out of the line of fire time after time and winning the immunity challenges she needed most. She never had to stab anyone in the back or make promises she couldn't keep because nobody had reason to rely on her or make deals with her. 

[fishcakes]

This thread is only on page 1, and I still feel like it's more than this abysmal finale deserves.

The opening with Rob and Sandra as the exposition fairies was something.
Rob: Three of these people will be in the finals.
Sandra: And one of those three will be Sole Survivor.
Oh is that how it works. Who knew. I thought Jeff just picked.

Most unjustifiably egotistical F3 ever. If there were an F3 that was just Russell Hantz, Russell Hantz, and Russell Hantz, you would have heard less bragging about what was mostly mediocre gameplay combined with a lot of luck. That said, I think ultimately Dean played the best game even though he's a complete dumb shit. Noura also played a good physical game and a decent strategic game, but you can't win by annoying the ever-living fuck out of everyone. I guess Tommy played a solid under-the-radar game since everyone liked him well enough to vote for him, but I can't help but think about the women winners who've played a similarly low-key but very social game (Vecepia and Michelle for example) and have routinely been slammed as terrible winners. Maybe people will talk about Tommy the same way, but I'm not holding my breath.

Oh, but Dean's comment about how he and Tommy were Magic and Bird? LOL. Unless those are the names of his two Basset Hounds, I'm not seeing it.

 

[amazingracefan]

The edit made it look very likely in advance that Janet was going, and then that Noura would be making the choice of who to take.

I still don't like the format of the final tribal, it's hard to split gameplay artificially like that, it feels more producer manipulated.  The line drawn question seemed out of nowhere, I expect it was producer led to fit into some theme with the season.

That immunity challenge was much harder with the ropes.

Overall thought Dean would win, but at least him and Tommy ended up playing the game.  I definitely preferred those two over the others in the final 5.  They made the end reasonably interesting.

[nlkm9]

12 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

[sarcasm]Oh My Gosh, she didn't give any money at all to Aaron, Missy, or Lauren so clearly  she's the Grand Wizard of the KKK.[/sarcasm]

I was really surprised that Noura didn't get a single vote.  She was all over the place, lied, betrayed  and talked too much, but she was working and playing hard the whole time.  I also thought she looked great at the reunion.  She was getting a certain cave-woman look there toward the end so it was nice to see the recovery. I could finally believe she really had all that dating experience.

Lol re: the caveman look. I liked her until the last few episodes when she pretty much showed how nasty she could be ( going in peoples bags) and making deals and then telling everyone , i gradually just got over her “ quirks” which in my opinion is a just an excuse to be a shithead!

 

6 hours ago, truthaboutluv said:

In no way do I think Dean played an amazing game and I blame Kellee and her dumb play for helping him get as far as he did. And I was the one mocking Dean's calling others Goats earlier in the season when he seemed a massive one to me. So just so it's clear, in no way was I, "Dean, the amazing Survivor player". 

That said, while Dean had his own toolish ways with his never ending flexing, he just made me roll my eyes versus Tommy who just incited a visceral dislike from me. YMMV of course, but for me, it was something about Tommy's tone, the way he spoke about how he was controlling votes even when he actually WASN'T, hell just his face, etc. that just turned me off from about mid-season.

There was just something inherently annoying and unlikeable about him, for me. And I'm sure he may be a perfectly nice guy in his everyday life. But on this show, I wanted anyone in that Final 3 to win but him. Yes Noura was annoying and nutty but her annoying didn't bug me. Yes, Dean spent a lot of time flexing and flipping his hair, but it still didn't make me actively root against him. Of course to be fair, mid-season I never expected Noura or Dean to make it that far.

Hahah rob made a comment about dean rolling up his sleeves!!

[Wandering Snark]

5 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Ironically Noura was in the best position to make a case for herself versus the two men on either side of her in terms of game, but she is just so incoherent and manic she's incapable of threading together a simple argument without going off on a million tangents and ending up saying nothing that makes any sense.

She said something about her finally feeling like she could really do this game,  feeling she was finally good enough and "see I can do things!!"/accomplish something and I could only instantly add "Just imagine what you could do if you were properly medicated." And that's not joke-y snark on my part, what Noura talks about her life being like is typical of someone who has battled themselves through the ravages of mental illness into their adulthood and look back to only see chaos. It's sad is what it is. What's sadder is that "I'm just being me!" will continue to shield her from ever getting help it would seem.

[tvfanatic13]

Things I didn’t see but wanted to (doesn’t mean it didn’t happen; maybe I missed it):

— when did the contestants learn of the spy shack at tribal?

— when did they learn about Sandra and Rob being out there?

— why oh why didn’t Kellee play an idol?

— why wasn’t Aaron called out on his “if I didn’t see it, then it couldn’t have happened”?

— I guess because they skipped a tribal they couldn’t go more into the fake advantage that Jamal have to Dean but I wish that they would have 

[Tdoc72]

14 hours ago, iMonrey said:

 

Ironically Noura was in the best position to make a case for herself versus the two men on either side of her in terms of game, but she is just so incoherent and manic she's incapable of threading together a simple argument without going off on a million tangents and ending up saying nothing that makes any sense.

I think her game play was good; she was just incapable of explaining it logically. She might’ve gotten a vote or two for that. But they all seemed pretty exasperated with her. 

[JudyObscure]

11 hours ago, Tdoc72 said:

I think her game play was good; she was just incapable of explaining it logically. She might’ve gotten a vote or two for that. But they all seemed pretty exasperated with her. 

I think it may have come down to that.  We at home found Noura entertaining, but they had to be talked over for hours when they were exhausted and hungry. 

We saw Noura out Elaine's idol at tribal just for the attention.

We saw her tell everyone that Kellee was the person who gave her a secret heads up about a vote.

We saw her insult Karishma to her face.

What if everyone had a few moments like that in mind?   I've said I would have voted for Noura, but if she had done any of those things to me  I probably would have voted for Tommy.

[Nashville]

On 12/18/2019 at 10:20 PM, Lantern7 said:

Oh, and we found out one of the guys is color-blind. Has that ever come up in past seasons?

Not to my recollection - but I suspect you wouldn’t lose money betting on a colorblindness question being added to the intake process in future seasons.

 

On 12/19/2019 at 5:54 PM, iMonrey said:

Yeah, I forgot about that. When she was on the beach crying about it and saying she never once made fire the whole time she was on the island, I thought "Well, maybe you should have." So many of these people claim to be fans of the game. What do we end up saying, season after season? Learn how to make fire.

Echo echo echo motherfucking ECHO.  For crying out loud.  Assuming you DO make it far enough in the game for it to even be an issue - if you aren’t going to practice a skill you already KNOW you have a solid 50% chance of being called upon to perform, then you fucking deserve to lose.  Same at Dean, for that matter.

[ByaNose]

The Tommy & Dean bromance was apparently a big thing but not shown at all. I guess the editors needed to hide it for the storyline of the Finale. Now, I understand why the two alpha males weren’t targeting each other much. It was because they became friends at some point. It was funny during the whole Tribal Council they were going after each other hard and yet high fiving each other. I’m surprised they didn’t fight over who had bigger pecs while high fiving each other. LOL!!!

[KaveDweller]

3 hours ago, Nashville said:

Echo echo echo motherfucking ECHO.  For crying out loud.  Assuming you DO make it far enough in the game for it to even be an issue - if you aren’t going to practice a skill you already KNOW you have a solid 50% chance of being called upon to perform, then you fucking deserve to lose.  Same at Dean, for that matter.

I agree, it was crazy that Lauren and Dean said they hadn't built a fire out there.

But Tommy was actually smart about it, if we really believe he practiced making fires and could do it, but didn't let anyone see him. Because if people see him being great at fire you run into a situation like Janet, where it made her a threat.

[Nashville]

25 minutes ago, KaveDweller said:

Because if people see him being great at fire you run into a situation like Janet, where it made her a threat.

Of course, part of the reason Janet’s fire-making capability was seen as such a threat was because Janet went out of her way to specifically portray it as such.  😁

[simplyme]

16 minutes ago, Nashville said:

Of course, part of the reason Janet’s fire-making capability was seen as such a threat was because Janet went out of her way to specifically portray it as such.  😁

Janet originally had the problem of being "the old lady" who was just trying to prove she was useful so she wouldn't get her butt voted out at the first TC, which is I think how her "I can make fire!" originally came up.  It should be noted that at least some of the tribe had noticed that um, I think it was Kellee? was also really good at making fire. (There was some scene where Jamal was hogging the flint when things were wet and Jack told him to give it to Kellee because she was really good at making fire. Kellee started the fire immediately.)

[ProfCrash]

I believe one of Janet’s first confessionals was that she practiced making fire so she could do it on day one and make it clear she was valuable to her tribe. And she made fire for the tribe on day one. 

[Whimsy]

Hey guys.  I know the season is over, but this is not the place to talk about the season as a whole or to assess Survivor gender dynamics.  Take all off-topic discussion to the appropriate threads. Off-topic posts have been moved to the Fix the Show thread for lack of a better place to put them. 

[ljenkins782]

On 12/19/2019 at 5:25 PM, Rachel RSL said:

This is what kills me.  I truly believe that Noura absolutely could have won if she had only been able to articulate all her moves and reasoning.  Combine that with her challenge wins, she would have been golden.  Sadly, Noura is Noura and you knew her final TC was going to be a big jumbled mess.

Way late to the party, but totally agree. I knew deep down that it wouldn't happen, but I was secretly holding out hope that Noura would be able to pull it together and make a case for herself. The edits that both Tommy and Dean were getting throughout the last episode didn't strike me as all that positive and allowed me to nurse my futile hopes for Noura.

Her win would have been great for many reasons, but the main reason would have been that having a prime goat actually win might get us away from the strategy of dragging them to the end and having lackluster winners. After Karishma, she was the 2nd goatiest one left (though her challenge wins were impressive), I'm guessing the cutting room floor holds even more evidence of her nuttiness and it was a foregone conclusion that she couldn't get a vote.

Also, I couldn't stand either Dean or Tommy, so them not winning would have been even more important than whoever did win. It took me much longer than most people to turn against Tommy, but I was rooting so hard against him by the end. Something quietly arrogant about him that turned me off, plus that "Tommy and his mommy" bullshit. 

His edit was really not all that flattering and it's interesting that it took the exposition from Rob and Sandra to actually make the point that he'd played a good social game. Outside of them pointing out that everyone who came to IOI named Tommy as their primary ally, I didn't really see his game. He and Lauren were attached at the hip and he was obviously close to Janet, but I didn't see the social mastermind at work through the lens of the edit. 

Quote

 

It was truly bizarre that Lauren whined - having been on an island reliant on it for over a month and knowing this was part of the final game - that she'd never made fire! Entitlement in action.

Yeah, I forgot about that. When she was on the beach crying about it and saying she never once made fire the whole time she was on the island, I thought "Well, maybe you should have." So many of these people claim to be fans of the game. What do we end up saying, season after season? Learn how to make fire.

 

Her meltdown was truly incredible. I can totally understand being upset about not getting picked to go to the end, but the way she acted like it was actually UNFAIR was surreal. Also, yes, perhaps actually learning to make fire would have been useful in the previous 38 days. This fire challenge has been around for several seasons and making fire is a daily part of life there, so no excuse for not bothering until you end up in the challenge.

There were some really promising cast members and some good episodes, but overall it had a lot of low points, culminating with this shitty final 3. The idols and advantages (well, the way they ended up being used, anyway) torpedoed the season for me. Kellee saving Dean, Kellee neglecting to play one of her 2 idols to save herself, and Dean winning that damn nullifier in a freaking coin toss and sinking Janet with it, all very pivotal moments that led us to Tommy and Dean as 1 and 2, ugh. 

[Grrarrggh]

Yet again it's two men and a woman in the final and the woman doesn't get a SINGLE vote. Not one. Excuse me while I vomit, again. 

[Nashville]

1 hour ago, Grrarrggh said:

Yet again it's two men and a woman in the final and the woman doesn't get a SINGLE vote. Not one. Excuse me while I vomit, again. 

Given Noura’s truly abysmal handling of the Jury at FTC, I’d have probably barfed if she had gotten a vote.

[peachmangosteen]

13 hours ago, Nashville said:

Given Noura’s truly abysmal handling of the Jury at FTC, I’d have probably barfed if she had gotten a vote.

It wasn't much worse than Dean's, not to mention the fact that her game play was probably better if not at least the same as his, and he still managed to get 2 votes.

[treeofdreams]

5 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

It wasn't much worse than Dean's, not to mention the fact that her game play was probably better if not at least the same as his, and he still managed to get 2 votes.

Noura came across to everyone as a ditz.  Who is going to vote for her as a player who *outwitted* them??

[Grrarrggh]

1 hour ago, treeofdreams said:

Noura came across to everyone as a ditz.  Who is going to vote for her as a player who *outwitted* them??

That's more on them than her. And it's sexist. Dean came off more ditzy than she did with his ridiculous chilin DK or whatever it was. 

[fishcakes]

Dean got caught blatantly lying to the jury. The jury can forgive lying during the game but lying during FTC is ordinarily the kiss of death. I was honestly surprised that he got any votes. Then again, all three were terrible, so in the end it hardly matters.

[Nashville]

2 hours ago, Grrarrggh said:

That's more on them than her. And it's sexist. Dean came off more ditzy than she did with his ridiculous chilin DK or whatever it was. 

Blaming the jury for “voting wrong” doesn’t play any better for Noura than it did for Russell Hantz.  At FTC Noura had ample opportunity to cast her gameplay in a light the Jury would respect (and vote for) but she failed to do so, and failed miserably - and that failure is 100% upon Noura, and nobody else.

[ProfCrash]

Noura alienated jury members long before FTC. Her behavior at camp was off putting. She insulted Karishma to her face in front of everyone who hadn’t gone on reward. Her ridiculous attempt at being named the caller for the one challenge shows how delusional she was. Her conversation with whatsherface while practicing making fire was awful. 

She is the only player I would call a challenge beast who was a goat because her social game was that awful.

seriously, Noura’s social game makes Abi look like a freaking social rock star. 

[Nashville]

Here’s the thing, though: if Noura at FTC had...

1. Advanced the notion that all her ditziness was a game-long ruse to reduce the chances of being targeted as dangerous competition.
2. Presented such in a clear, calm and rational manner calculated to contrast with her ditzy game persona to date.

...then Noura’s game outcome could have been wildly different.  But Noura did not do that - she did quite the opposite, actually, in going out of her way to reinforce the worst elements of her game persona.  

And to anybody challenging this assertion, please answer me this: when’s the last other time you ever heard a FTC jury literally beg a finalist to please shut the hell up?  I’m pretty sure that was a first - and not a good one. 😉 

Edited January 4, 2020 by Nashville
Redundant redundancy

[Grrarrggh]

57 minutes ago, ProfCrash said:

Noura alienated jury members long before FTC. Her behavior at camp was off putting. She insulted Karishma to her face in front of everyone who hadn’t gone on reward. Her ridiculous attempt at being named the caller for the one challenge shows how delusional she was. Her conversation with whatsherface while practicing making fire was awful. 

She is the only player I would call a challenge beast who was a goat because her social game was that awful.

seriously, Noura’s social game makes Abi look like a freaking social rock star. 

Which, IMO, makes her even more worthy of winning. That she lasted longer than a vote or two is amazing. She deserved to win. She is a true survivor. 

[Prower]

I hadn't watched the last few season, but decided to watch this one when I heard that Sandra would be on it. I just love her gameplay so much. It's a bit by the seat of her pants, but she is great at gathering information, spreading rumors and controlling the other people through her social game in general. And you can't argue with results. She is a two time winner.

Never cared for Boston Rob. Imo he isn't the greatest player. They had to bring him back five whole times and pair him with complete noobs, who were massive fans and thus warshipped him, for him to win in the end. That's not a good track record.

But like I said, really love Sandra. So I was really sad to see how underused both of them were. I mean one visit per episode, and in quite a few episodes there was none (or it was edited out). What the hell? Also what was the point with them sitting in on the tribal councels? I thought maybe they would be put on the jury and get some extra votes. That would have been an interesting twist, but nope, they fucked off the island at final 5 and were never seen again. Lame.

I think TPTB really wanted to have the idols be a surprise for the players, to the point where I think the players weren't allowed to tell their tribes what was really going on the island of the idols (it seems unrealistic that all of them decided to lie on their own volition). But that added basically nothing for us, the viewer. A tighter integration of the idols into the game, at least from the merge onwards, would have made this a lot more interesting.

Otherwise the season was fine I guess. It was a rollercoaster of betrayels, but I don't think there was any stellar gameplay to be found anywhere. I also don't need any of these people back, except maybe Elaine.

[Prower]

On 12/19/2019 at 5:20 AM, Lantern7 said:

I don't like Noura. But she presents herself as an outcast overcoming the odds, and I wonder how I'd react if a guy was in her place. I'd say that I'd hate him as well, but I'm not sure . . . and that's troubling.

I think Coach was about the same kind of crazy as Nora and I hated him way more than her, so I can say, I'm good there.

On 12/19/2019 at 3:48 PM, peachmangosteen said:

What a shitty season with a boring winner who did next to nothing and a F3 where a woman who did the same amount if not more than the 2 men is shit on and shut out of the vote. Classic.

She "did" more than the men, but her social game was utter shit and like it or not, that's the most important part in survivor, once you made it to the final 2/3.

If that wasn't the case, Russel should have won a few seasons and when Russel said just that Jeff shut him down right away with "that's not survivor". You have to have a good social game.

On 12/19/2019 at 5:46 PM, Fallacy said:

I think future Survivor juries need to consider if their perceptions of the final three have anything to do with their existing ideas and beliefs about gender. Just a little critical thinking about why they believe what they believe would help.

No, future survivor juries need to consider who played the best game and that includes the social game. I don't like this subtle accusation of sexism. In the first 20 seasons of survivor we were close to 50/50 male and female winners. I don't think sexism has become worse in that time, if anything it has become less.

So either the game has changed in some weird ways to advantage men, but I don't see such a change, or TPTB are casting shitty female contestants. In that case, yell at Jeff Probst. But leave the jury out of it.

On 12/19/2019 at 7:25 PM, iMonrey said:

The producers still have a juvenile obsession with having the players wear as little clothing as possible, especially the women.

Espececially the women? I mean come on. The men were in their underpants like 90% of the time... and I very much appreciated it since there were some nice packages. So if anything it was "especially the men" wearing as little clothes as possile this season.

On 1/3/2020 at 10:07 PM, peachmangosteen said:

It wasn't much worse than Dean's, not to mention the fact that her game play was probably better if not at least the same as his, and he still managed to get 2 votes.

It was muuuuuch worse than Dean's and her social game was abysmal. For the players it's not one hour of television once a week, it's 39 days nonstop. Nobody is going to vote for somebody who annoyed the piss out of them for that whole time. That is part of Survivor!

On 1/4/2020 at 12:59 AM, fishcakes said:

Dean got caught blatantly lying to the jury. The jury can forgive lying during the game but lying during FTC is ordinarily the kiss of death. I was honestly surprised that he got any votes. Then again, all three were terrible, so in the end it hardly matters.

FTC usually doesn't matter and is just for show. The jury usually has made up its mind way in advance.

Edited February 17, 2020 by Prower