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S04.E14: Triggered in Thailand

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3 hours ago, LibertarianSlut said:

I bolded there areas I found consistent, and the areas with which I mostly agree (i wouldn't say I "fully" support sex workers.  I support their right to do what they do, but if I knew a woman in the business and she expressed ambivalence about what she was doing, I'd try to help her get out in a way that I wouldn't help a nurse get out of her profession.  So I just support it, not fully).

I also agree that women who are trafficked (I called them slaves upthread) can't consent to sex; they can't consent to anything if they're slaves.  That's a human rights problem, (and it's alive and well here in the US).

The rest of the quoted paragraph is...troubling...to me.  A person, no matter what color they are, is either free to consent to sex or they're not, whether it's for pleasure, commerce, heels, bags, cash, the adult film industry, whatever.  To group race with age reads quite condescendingly, and I can't stand by it.  It's not personal, but I need to point out that I'm very uncomfortable with the way that was written.  

If women look so young that there is concern that they're not eligible to consent--that's a real problem.  But I think black women have just as much of a right to stand in those windows as white women.  I would hope we're not advocating that legalized prostitution should be exclusive to white women, and the black women who are crowded out are forced to make their living some other way, like back-alley prostitution, or a more back-breaking job, for a lower wage.

Given the discussion surrounding Leeanne, I find this statement on race ironic and sad.  I speak on behalf of everything I've read and learned over the course of the past 20 years, so I'm not looking to go back and forth on a message board about a reality show.  I find it insulting, I'm insulted, I'll agree to disagree and we can move on.

I think you grossly misread what I wrote, but perhaps I could explain it better. In a predominantly white country, when I see a number of women who are young, of color, and seem to be foreign, it concerns me greatly. It’s not because women of color are inherently unable to consent (which is patently absurd and not at all what I said). It’s simply that it’s reflective of privilege. People, dependent on their race, ethnicity, gender, sexuality, class, etc. have varying access to privilege. My comment is an acknowledgment of that disparity. And it’s an acknowledgment of how privilege and discrimination affects people differently. It’s a much deeper and larger conversation, but there is a lot of literature in race, class, and gender studies about what “consent” means in a patriarchal, white, etc. dominated society. Simply put, the less privilege you have, the less access to options you have, which reduces your ability to fully  consent. It’s about power imbalance. 
 

Honestly, my comments were said with a deep awareness, recognition, and amount of study in the area of race, class, and gender. And they were said with a full acknowledgment of the privileges I hold because of my racial and class background. As a white woman who has never been in a position where I had to consider sex work because of my life circumstances, I am not here to determine what consent means for women who aren’t me. But I will raise the question and suggest that we should understand how race, class and gender privilege influence the decisions people make. 

Lastly, I really don’t appreciate being compared to LeeAnne. 

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12 hours ago, IKnowRight said:

I was actually surprised they didn’t select Pam Martin Duarte or give more time to Heidi Dillon, beyond being Leeanne’s friend on RHOD.  I liked Bon, but I did not like her daughter.  Bon was kind of fun.  Leslie is the one that reminded me of Laurie Peterson before George. I’m pretty sure Pam was/is friends with D’Andrea Simmons.  

Heidi D is very influential and she’s supported Leeanne for a long time.  Wonder if any of those alliances will now change? If you recall, some of the ladies bickered over who was closer to Leeanne on Big, Rich Texas. Season 2?  Heidi and Leeanne were in the The Fashionistas, and lots of Dallas women, at that time, wanted to be involved but were not selected.  Heidi is involved in Dallas charities and television production.  Supposedly, she was influential in casting Dallas, Divas and Daughters.  That show morphed into Big, Rich Texas. Then, we see Heidi pop up in the background as Leeanne’s friend on RHOD.

Oh that Heidi!  Of all the "society" women we are supposed to be impressed with - she was the worst buy a mile!  The only thing I enjoyed about her was when Brandi crank called her 😄 

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Alexander Rodgers speculates that RHOD will be revamped with a multi-cultural new cast, and that LeeAnne will be fired for her racist tirades.

Which would be interesting in that the editors chose to show those tirades vs. hide them (for ratings). LeeAnne brings in the viewers.

Edited by pasdetrois
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12 minutes ago, pasdetrois said:

Alexander Rodgers speculates that RHOD will be revamped with a multi-cultural new cast, and that LeeAnne will be fired for her racist tirades.

Which would be interesting in that the editors chose to show those tirades vs. hide them.

Who is Alexander Rogers?  I googled, couldn't find anything.

My prediction?  I think we'll see this all play out on the reunion.  There will be screaming and there will be tears, and there will be a heartfelt apology.  And there will be huge ratings.

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He covers the housewives and other reality TV shows on YouTube. He is obsessed with these shows, has lots of industry connections, and either has insider scoops or speculates based on his knowledge of the industry.  I laughed when he said "You know, Andy Cohen, it's OK to mix races and cultures on these shows." (Referring to the segregated nature of the shows)

I've quoted him in the past and didn't want to keep explaining who he is, but I should have. Sorry for confusion.

ETA: I think Kam knows exactly what she's doing with LeeAnne - hogging camera time.

Edited by pasdetrois
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11 minutes ago, pasdetrois said:

He covers the housewives and other reality TV shows on YouTube. He is obsessed with these shows, has lots of industry connections, and either has insider scoops or speculates based on his knowledge of the industry.  I laughed when he said "You know, Andy Cohen, it's OK to mix races and cultures on these shows." (Referring to the segregated nature of the shows)

I've quoted him in the past and didn't want to keep explaining who he is, but I should have. Sorry for confusion.

ETA: I think Kam knows exactly what she's doing with LeeAnne - hogging camera time.

Ooooh, now I'm going to have to find him!  I love that kind of stuff!

I think the reason the show hasn't been as mixed before is, Andy has said that new members seem to work better if they are brought in by an existing member, someone they are already friends with.  That way, they can dig into some stuff from their past, creating drama, like ready-made.  Think LeeAnne and D'Andra.  

So it's not that they don't purposely try to bring in people from different backgrounds, but that they do try to bring in people who already know each other, who often happen to be of the same background.  

If they bring in a cast member who doesn't know anyone, it takes a long time to build up the resentment and hate that longtime friends can sometimes bring really early on.  It took a long time, for example, on RHOC, for Vicki and Tamra to start their screaming matches.

D'Andra did bring in new Kary, and I'm one who actually loves Kary (although I agree that her gravelly voice is annoying), but there doesn't seem to be any drama between the two.  But D'Andra must have fed Kary stories about LeeAnne, who D'Andra has known for years, and Kary, being such a strong personality, has been able to poke that bear and give us what we've all been talking about with LeeAnne.

sigh.....I have too much time on my hands if I'm dissecting this show this much!  🙂

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10 hours ago, princelina said:

Oh that Heidi!  Of all the "society" women we are supposed to be impressed with - she was the worst buy a mile!  The only thing I enjoyed about her was when Brandi crank called her 😄 

Yup.

That’s THE issue with the real housewives shows on Bravo.  For the most part, “society women” refuse to participate in these shows. With a few exceptions, most are just posers.  Just think of how many have been exposed for (lack of) money issues?  
 

Heidi is well known in Dallas and has real coin, but is she really what we think of when you think of high society?  Even Heather D, fancy pants, had a humble upbringing.  Instead, Bravo shows us the Lynn Curtins of the world that can’t really afford to live behind the gate!  Maybe LVP and definitely to the manor born, Adrienne Maloff are the real deal.  Andy can’t seem to snag Kathy Hilton, but takes Kyle and Kim.  Brandi Granville blew the facade up because Bravo loves the dirt she unearthed.  
 

Supposedly Karen Huger is married to the “black Bill Gates” as she likes to say.  Show us the money Karen.

The fighting gets real ugly on these shows.  Bravo will never convince certain women to come on these shows for that reason alone.   

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Maybe LVP and definitely to the manor born, Adrienne Maloff are the real deal.

BH def had/has quite a bit of women who had coins for sure. LVP, Adrienne, Camille, Yolanda, even the one-season wonders Joyce, Carlton, and Kathryn were said to well off. Though out of them all, Adrienne was probably the closest to high society that show offered.

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7 hours ago, pasdetrois said:

ETA: I think Kam knows exactly what she's doing with LeeAnne - hogging camera time.

Yes - and winning the audience sympathy too!

7 hours ago, Sterling said:

D'Andra did bring in new Kary, and I'm one who actually loves Kary (although I agree that her gravelly voice is annoying), but there doesn't seem to be any drama between the two.  But D'Andra must have fed Kary stories about LeeAnne, who D'Andra has known for years, and Kary, being such a strong personality, has been able to poke that bear and give us what we've all been talking about with LeeAnne.

Because D'Andra failed at it so miserably last year she had to bring in back-up 😄 

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Not gonna lie, I was legit scared for Kameron whenever she was alone with Leanne, like, maybe Leanne would knife her really quick and then rationalize the whole thing around being a carny while bursting into tears.

I swear when she told D'andra "would you like to just go and throw down on the roof" I was taken aback, but I guess D'andra learned from last season because she handled her in 2 seconds. But my point is, Leanne has threatened violence before, but this season she became more unhinged and volatile.

I'm Mexican so obviously I find all her remarks to be despicable and I think she should be fired, but to be 100% honest, the main reason why I believe she should be let go is because I think she's mentally ill, maybe in seasons past she behaved crazy, but in these past episodes her mood swings were just too over the top. 

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12 hours ago, charliesan said:

I swear when she told D'andra "would you like to just go and throw down on the roof" I was taken aback, but I guess D'andra learned from last season because she handled her in 2 seconds.

That was such a weird and disturbing comment but D’Andra’s reaction was hilarious and so nonchalant for telling someone she was going to throw them off the roof. And Leeanne barely reacted, it was such a non issue.  I don’t like D’Andra but I appreciate how over Leanne she is. She was spot on pointing out how dramatic Leeanne’s apology was and how it made her the victim and most hurt party rather than Kam.

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Leeanne is a narcissistic crazypants, but she's totally right that Kary is like an annoying, chirpy bird.  Ugh.  Like, it's your first season.  You don't have to instigate conflict at every dinner.  Simmer.  

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14 minutes ago, ladle said:

totally right that Kary is like an annoying, chirpy bird.

The issue that’s not what LeeAnne called her she called her a chirpy Mexican.

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18 hours ago, biakbiak said:

The issue that’s not what LeeAnne called her she called her a chirpy Mexican.

Oh, I totally agree that LeeAnne's "Mexican" comments about Kary are extreeeeemely problematic!  Didn't mean to imply that they weren't.  I had a whole diatribe on one of the other threads about that. 

But, also, Kary is so fucking annoying.   

Edited: Because "imply" and "infer" are different, I used the wrong one, and I am a nerd.  

Edited by ladle
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On 12/14/2019 at 11:14 PM, MrsWitter said:

I think you grossly misread what I wrote, but perhaps I could explain it 

It's certainly a possibility that I misread what you wrote, and thank you for taking the time to explain further.  I am more of an economic theorist.  I don't read much about gender or class privilege.  Certainly likely not as much as you likely have.  I'd like to take these issues to economic-minded people, but they will be all over me if I don't have a firm grip on the situation.

In that vein, do you mind if I ask you a few questions? (Did we ever get a Small Talk thread for Dallas?  I'll move it over there if we get one)

What is is about a predominantly white country that raises your concern when you see a number of women who are young, of color and seem to be foreign?  

If the prositutes in the Red Light District of Bangkok were 18 year old Vietnamese, would you perhaps not be as concerned?  

What makes "predominantly white" more of a red flag?

Would it be fair to sum up the part of your argument that states that people have different access to privilege based on all sorts of factors to "people have different privileges"?  That's how I read it.  I just wasn't sure if I was reading nuance out of it.  

If the less privileges someone has, the fewer options they have, and that negatively informs their ability to consent, is there a limiting principle in place?  If I make $150k a year and another woman makes $600k, all other factors being equal, do I have less of an ability to consent to sexual intercourse because of the privilege imbalance?

     What about other factors?  What if I work at Victoria's Secret at the Akron, Ohio mall and the woman making $600k works in Silicon Valley?

           If I have fewer options, as I didn't get as much education-perhaps I didn't have access--would I not be fully consenting to working at Victoria's Secret?  Would there be questions of privilege?  What if I was white and the person working in tech was Asian?  

If someone fully supports sex work, why do you say you never "had" to work in the sex industry?  Is that a suggestion that it is involuntary?  

If you are not in a position to determine what consent is for another person, who do you think is in the best position to do that?

Finally--and my economist friends would laugh at me if I didn't come back to them with an answer to this:  does supply and demand fit into the equation at all?  

For example, what if the predominant, white privileged men favor 20 year old black women who speak French over native-born white women?  What if they prefer them so much that a black, French-speaking young woman could get 2,000 Euros for sex whereas an older, white, native woman could only fetch 1,000 Euros for paid sex work?  And what if dancing at the local discotheque could get any attractive woman 1,500 Euros a night?  So...if the market dictated that the black women get their 2,000 Euros where they are in demand, and the white women did dancing, where they would get 50% more money, who, if anyone, is being exploited there?

Thanks for indulging me.  

I didn't mean to compare you to Leeanne, and if I did, it was this Leeanne:

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Because I know from your other posts that you love animals!

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I don’t condone LeaAnn’s comments. But I also don’t condone what D’Andra and Kerri did to her with the dress. I think that REALLY pissed LeaAnn off, rightly so. 
You can’t try to fuck with someone’s livelihood like that and then cry victim when you get insulted in a way that you seem below the belt because, IMO, you provoked the situation. 
Messing with someone’s livelihood is a lot worse than calling someone a mean name, no? 

Edited by SheTalksShit
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16 minutes ago, SheTalksShit said:


Messing with someone’s livelihood is a lot worse than calling someone a mean name, no? 

A LOT worse. 

And I don't even know if I want to wade into this, but if I was called a chirpy little Italian... I would not care.  Would anyone?  Or if she called Brandi a chirpy little redhead.  I don't think it is racist to say that.  Not understanding how it is when subbed in with Mexican. I agree it is not kind.

Edited by heatherchandler
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Just now, heatherchandler said:

A LOT worse. 

And I don't even know if I want to wade into this, but if I was called a chirpy little Italian... I would not care.  Would anyone?  Or if she called Brandi a chirpy little redhead.  I don't think it is racist to say that.  Not understanding how it is when subbed in with Mexican. 

Ha, I’m Italian, too and was just thinking about that...I would not care, either! Fuck, in middle school, a girl I didn’t get along with spread all these rumors that my family was in the mob and I was a mafia princess and I still didn’t really care! I thought it was kinda funny they’d think my family was that powerful lol. 

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17 minutes ago, SheTalksShit said:

I don’t condone LeaAnn’s comments. But I also don’t condone what D’Andra and Kerri did to her with the dress. I think that REALLY pissed LeaAnn off, rightly so. 
You can’t try to fuck with someone’s livelihood like that and then cry victim when you get insulted in a way that you seem below the belt because, IMO, you provoked the situation. 
Messing with someone’s livelihood is a lot worse than calling someone a mean name, no? 

If that fug dress is the source of her livelihood, she's sucking dicks at the Roundup on the side.

1 minute ago, heatherchandler said:

Not understanding how it is when subbed in with Mexican. 

It was the tone and inflection she used when uttering the word "Mexican", again and again, like it was a vitriolic, vituperative slur.

I heard the same exact tone being used by white supremacists and wannabe Nazis when watching "Hate Thy Neighbor".

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1 minute ago, walnutqueen said:

If that fug dress is the source of her livelihood, she's sucking dicks at the Roundup on the side.

It was the tone and inflection she used when uttering the word "Mexican", again and again, like it was a vitriolic, vituperative slur.

I heard the same exact tone being used by white supremacists and wannabe Nazis when watching "Hate Thy Neighbor".

So you’re dismissing what they tried to do with that dress. (yes, it is a PART of her livelihood, whether you would buy it or not). 
Honestly, with the lack of self control LeaAnn has, if she wanted to refer to Keri with a racial slur, she probably woulda, IMO. 
I can’t respect somebody picking at and provoking someone all the time, then crying foul and victim when somebody shoots back with a nasty comment. That’s pathetic. You dish it out, you should be able to take it. 

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11 minutes ago, walnutqueen said:

It was the tone and inflection she used when uttering the word "Mexican", again and again, like it was a vitriolic, vituperative slur.

I agree on the tone.  Also, she included Mexican in a variety of comments about Kary, not just calling her chirpy.  One of the times it was accompanied with a lovely jacking off hand motion.  Again, I'm sure her defense will be that she was just mimicking what Kary had said but I do think she knew full well what she was doing.  Trying to make Kary an "other."

4 minutes ago, SheTalksShit said:


I can’t respect somebody picking at and provoking someone all the time, then crying foul and victim when somebody shoots back with a nasty comment. That’s pathetic. You dish it out, you should be able to take it. 

I don't have a problem with LeeAnne giving it back to her, it was her choice of words.  She could have just called her a stupid bitch or something and that would have been fine.  HAH!

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1 minute ago, SheTalksShit said:

So you’re dismissing what they tried to do with that dress. (yes, it is a PART of her livelihood, whether you would buy it or not). 

What they tried to do with that dress was figure out how to wear it without instructions.  Did they take it too far?  Perhaps.  But I would've excoriated a product so poorly designed and dysfunctional, too, without the pretense of joking.

Much like many of the ho'wives' products, it's probably not much of a profitable enterprise.

11 minutes ago, SheTalksShit said:

I can’t respect somebody picking at and provoking someone all the time, then crying foul and victim when somebody shoots back with a nasty comment. That’s pathetic. You dish it out, you should be able to take it.

Sounds like Leanne, to me.  She's the poster child of crying foul and victim.

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8 minutes ago, TexasGal said:

I agree on the tone.  Also, she included Mexican in a variety of comments about Kary, not just calling her chirpy.  One of the times it was accompanied with a lovely jacking off hand motion.  Again, I'm sure her defense will be that she was just mimicking what Kary had said but I do think she knew full well what she was doing.  Trying to make Kary an "other."

I don't have a problem with LeeAnne giving it back to her, it was her choice of words.  She could have just called her a stupid bitch or something and that would have been fine.  HAH!

And Keri coulda NOT tried to hurt LeaAnn’s business by purposely and relentlessly criticizing the dress on national TV. She didn’t. 
If Keri hadn’t done that thing w/the dress, I’d see LeaAnn’s comments very differently.
But if you try and fuck with someone’s livelihood, you can’t expect restraint in the names they call you, IMO and I’m definitely not gonna feel sympathy for you when you get called names. 
why throw such big stones if you live in such a fragile glass house? 

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56 minutes ago, SheTalksShit said:

dress. I think that REALLY pissed LeaAnn off, rightly so. 

She made comments like maybe she should speak to Kary “in Hispanic” so she would understand before the dress incident.

Not to mention all the real vitriol about the dress was aimed at Kary not D’Andra who bought it and wore it.

Edited by biakbiak
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Didn't LeeAnne say that Kary's necklaces looked like anal beads before the whole business with the dress happened?  (I'm talking about the first time she said this, not after, when she bizarrely asked how Kary would feel if LeeAnne said her jewelry looked like anal beads--which she already did say.  LeeAnne's such a lunatic that when you repeat her behavior back, it makes you sound like a mental case.) 

The point being that what they did with the dress was nasty, but they didn't fire the first shot at someone else's business.  You can't get all self-righteous about a sin you've already committed.  Unless you're LeeAnne.  So spare me the tender feelings about coming for somebody's living.  (Which in both their cases is kind of a stretch.  How many dresses and necklaces has each of them sold so far?)

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33 minutes ago, Mondrianyone said:

How many dresses and necklaces has each of them sold so far?)

Probably not enough to keep me in cheap catfood, much less that Sparkle Dog shit (which I'm sure not even my raccoons or possums would eat).

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MeAnne just needs to go to the psychiatrist. STAT!  The woman has some serious problems stemming from her carny childhood up to and including her whole "Mexican" thing.  I'm not Mexican but I was really taken aback and offended that THIS was what MeAnne kept speaking about in regards to Kary.  I'm with TexasGal.  Just call her a f'n bitch or something. None of us need to throw out the nasty cultural comments. No. Just NO. 

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Talking about livelihoods... When they were shopping in Bangkok, did Kary say she buys pieces of jewellery (not the seperate wholesale components), which she then turns into her own creations? If she’s doing that, she’s wasting a lot of money!

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1 minute ago, CrinkleCutCat said:

Talking about livelihoods... When they were shopping in Bangkok, did Kary say she buys pieces of jewellery (not the seperate wholesale components), which she then turns into her own creations? If she’s doing that, she’s wasting a lot of money!

It was confusing because the place was selling beads and strings of beads in addition to regular jewelry so I couldn’t tell what she actually meant. 

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8 minutes ago, CrinkleCutCat said:

Talking about livelihoods... When they were shopping in Bangkok, did Kary say she buys pieces of jewellery (not the seperate wholesale components), which she then turns into her own creations? If she’s doing that, she’s wasting a lot of money!

Kary is shit for brains.  
 

I still love LeeAnne, she’s good to her dogs and that’s enough for me.

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1 hour ago, ladle said:

I actually find “bitch” (used in that context) to be an offensive slur too but perhaps I stand alone...

I find it offensive to female dogs.  In that context, bitch should be a term of endearment.

59 minutes ago, goofygirl said:

Asshat? Douchecanoe? Butthead? Shit for brains?

Dickswab is my latest go-to (thanks, Killing Eve).

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On 12/16/2019 at 7:07 PM, LibertarianSlut said:

It's certainly a possibility that I misread what you wrote, and thank you for taking the time to explain further.  I am more of an economic theorist.  I don't read much about gender or class privilege.  Certainly likely not as much as you likely have.  I'd like to take these issues to economic-minded people, but they will be all over me if I don't have a firm grip on the situation.

In that vein, do you mind if I ask you a few questions? (Did we ever get a Small Talk thread for Dallas?  I'll move it over there if we get one)

What is is about a predominantly white country that raises your concern when you see a number of women who are young, of color and seem to be foreign?  

I appreciate your inquisitiveness on this subject and your desire to discuss it further with friends. What I will say, as I’ve tried to note before, is these issues are complex. I can’t give you easy answers to the questions you asked and I think it’s hard for anyone to get a “firm grip” on the issues without more reading and independent thinking. Given that economic theory should be focusing on privilege because our economy perpetuates and holds up privilege, I would love for you to read more. I’m going to post a couple of very basic articles that I think might help. They are  Privilege 101 and I think it’s important to recognize, as one article points out, that examining privilege is its own area of theory and study. These are by no means complete or even the best out there. They’re just a starting point.
 

https://everydayfeminism.com/2014/09/what-is-privilege/

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/feeling-our-way/201702/the-privilege-not-understanding-privilege?amp

Also, to more directly answer questions on prostitution and sex work, I think this analysis of Amsterdam is useful. It tackles some of the questions you asked about race and sex work, but it also highlights very clearly how privilege manifests within the sex industry.  For instance, it is much more common for non-Dutch women to work with pimps, which, dependent on the relationship with the pimp, complicates the notion of consent.

https://www.humanityinaction.org/knowledge_detail/the-exotic-other-in-prostitution-ethnic-fault-lines-in-amsterdams-sex-industry/


“Most women will tell you that they work for themselves and legally this is true. When a sex worker registers with the local municipality, she or he is treated as an independent business owner by the government. In reality, however, many women are working for a pimp. This is especially true of the two-thirds non-Dutch sex worker population.“

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I think what D’Andra and Kary did was mean (funny, but mean). That said, I only wish they hadn’t done it because it’s just another way for LeeAnne to talk about what a victim she is, everyone picks on her, etc. The best thing to do with LeeAnne is to just ignore her, IMO. Suck the wind out of her persecuted sails.

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2 minutes ago, MrsWitter said:

The best thing to do with LeeAnne is to just ignore her, IMO. Suck the wind out of her persecuted sails

Or, throat punch her and shove her in a duffel bag to be dropped off a bridge ... 

Oh, wait, I'm not on the ID Channel forum, am I?

Nevermind.

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3 hours ago, heatherchandler said:

she’s good to her dogs and that’s enough for me.

Probably because they are the only thing in life she can’t emotionally manipulate and they don’t understand her when she tells them that she has suffered more than anyone ever.

Edited by biakbiak
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9 hours ago, biakbiak said:

She made comments like maybe she should speak to Kary “in Hispanic” so she would understand before the dress incident.

Not to mention all the real vitriol about the dress was aimed at Kary not D’Andra who bought it and wore it.

because Keri kept going on about it, when she wasn't even the one wearing the dress! She didn't buy the dress (D'Andra did) and she wasn't wearing the dress, but she wouldn't let up, even though she and LeaAnn barely even know each other, so it's weird for Keri to be so intent on making LeaAnn look bad. Again, if Keri hadn't taken it there, I'd see LeaAnn's comments very differently. But Keri chose to escalate it and so for her to cry victim is pretty ridiculous, IMO.

Edited by SheTalksShit
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13 minutes ago, SheTalksShit said:

because Keri kept going on about it, when she wasn't even the one wearing the dress! She wouldn't let up, even though she and LeaAnn barely even know each other, so it's weird for Keri to be so intent on making LeaAnn look bad. Again, if Keri hadn't taken it there, I'd see LeaAnn's comments very differently. But Keri chose to escalate it and so for her to cry victim is pretty ridiculous, IMO.

They have both escalated and acted like assholes. LeeAnne after Kary brought them to Mexico said her ugly necklaces looked like anal beads and after the dress incident basically told her she said it to be cruel and hurt Kary. LeeAnne just adds a huge ass dollop of othering/bigotry on top of all of her insults to Kary.

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9 hours ago, Mondrianyone said:

Didn't LeeAnne say that Kary's necklaces looked like anal beads before the whole business with the dress happened?  (I'm talking about the first time she said this, not after, when she bizarrely asked how Kary would feel if LeeAnne said her jewelry looked like anal beads--which she already did say.  LeeAnne's such a lunatic that when you repeat her behavior back, it makes you sound like a mental case.) 

The point being that what they did with the dress was nasty, but they didn't fire the first shot at someone else's business.  You can't get all self-righteous about a sin you've already committed.  Unless you're LeeAnne.  So spare me the tender feelings about coming for somebody's living.  (Which in both their cases is kind of a stretch.  How many dresses and necklaces has each of them sold so far?)

Oh LeaAnn said something about her jewelry? Maybe that's why Kary was pissed off, then. I guess that makes sense. It seems like Kary went way more on about LeaAnn's product than LeaAnn did about hers, but if she did that in response to what LeaAnn said about her jewelry, then I get it more. 

IDK. LeaAnn shouldn't have said what she said, but of all the things you can say to insult someone, IMO, ethnicity is not the most insulting. At least, it's not to me. If anything, I'd be like, "Really? You've spent all this time with me and my ethnicity is all you got? I must be doing pretty good, then!" bc in my mind, there's much deeper shit you could insult someone about. 

IDK. In my mind, in order to really insult someone, you gotta really touch on something they're insecure about. At least, that's how it is for me. I have a lot of insecurities, but my ethnicity is simply not one of them. So, if someone insulted that, I wouldn't even care, I'd be more amused than anything else. 

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12 minutes ago, SheTalksShit said:

She wouldn't let up, even though she and LeaAnn barely even know each other, so it's weird for Keri to be so intent on making LeaAnn look bad.

Leanne has never had a problem doing that all on her own.

No sympathy for her tired carny kid victim schtick, or any of her other disgusting tirades, that's for sure.

My Oma would give her an ohrfeigen the first time she tried to pull that shit on anyone within hearing distance.  Wish I could do the same.

Go back to the rock you slithered out from under, and take your shit basket with you, Leanne.

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9 minutes ago, SheTalksShit said:

IDK. In my mind, in order to really insult someone, you gotta really touch on something they're insecure about. At least, that's how it is for me. I have a lot of insecurities, but my ethnicity is simply not one of them. So, if someone insulted that, I wouldn't even care, I'd be more amused than anything else. 

Bigots insult people using their otherness constantly,  that doesn’t mean a black, Asian, gay, disabled person, etc, can’t be both insulted and proud of who they are when people are using it as an insult. We haven’t even see Kary be upset at the language just a shit ton of people calling LeeAnne out and her response being “I fucked a lot of Mexicans” so I can’t be be bigoted.

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One also needs to consider broader structures of power.  In the current climate, using "Mexican" as an insult has a different meaning and impact than using "Italian" or "French" or whatever.  At the very least, Leanne's comments about Kary require major side eye, and the fact that she seems to be standing by them is concerning.  

That said, let's please not overlook the fact that Kary, independently of any of this, is awful.  I appreciate your cooperation on this matter.

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5 hours ago, SheTalksShit said:

Oh LeaAnn said something about her jewelry? Maybe that's why Kary was pissed off, then. I guess that makes sense. It seems like Kary went way more on about LeaAnn's product than LeaAnn did about hers, but if she did that in response to what LeaAnn said about her jewelry, then I get it more. 

IDK. LeaAnn shouldn't have said what she said, but of all the things you can say to insult someone, IMO, ethnicity is not the most insulting. At least, it's not to me. If anything, I'd be like, "Really? You've spent all this time with me and my ethnicity is all you got? I must be doing pretty good, then!" bc in my mind, there's much deeper shit you could insult someone about. 

IDK. In my mind, in order to really insult someone, you gotta really touch on something they're insecure about. At least, that's how it is for me. I have a lot of insecurities, but my ethnicity is simply not one of them. So, if someone insulted that, I wouldn't even care, I'd be more amused than anything else. 

I think I get you, SheTalksShit. A straight up declarative like, "You are Mexican" is not an insult. And if people choose to take a simple declarative statement as an insult, that's just the strange times we're currently living in.  You're a woman, She's a pilot, He's a custodian, also not offensive.

In fact, I think some psychologist somewhere could make the case that finding offense in a statement like, You are Mexican, actually reveals the offendee's internalized racism/bigotry/xenophobia because who else but someone who secretly harbours negative feelings about being Mexican would find offense in a simple statement of fact, when there is simply nothing pejorative about the word Mexican or being Mexican, unless you secretly or unconsciously think there is.

I think LeeAnne went beyond the declarative though. I expect she will claim that she was simply pointing out that Kary herself was using her ethnicity "I'll get Mexican" (or however she put it) as a stand-in for toughness or roughness. That's on Kary -- (people are individuals and not representatives of their race or ethnicity.)  Couple that with the fact LeeAnn has been trying to "other" Kary in different ways for some time now. As well as Stephanie, and Brandi, and D'Andra -- that's her MO -- she includes and excludes according to her current feelings.  So how is this any different?

I think it is different because being Mexican or having Spanish (sub in any other ethnicity or language) as your first language isn't something one chooses, or can change, or is behavior-related or anything else, it just is an immutable characteristic, so using it in any kind of pejorative way is out of bounds.  IMO. 

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13 hours ago, SheTalksShit said:

IDK. LeaAnn shouldn't have said what she said, but of all the things you can say to insult someone, IMO, ethnicity is not the most insulting. At least, it's not to me. If anything, I'd be like, "Really? You've spent all this time with me and my ethnicity is all you got? I must be doing pretty good, then!" bc in my mind, there's much deeper shit you could insult someone about. 

IDK. In my mind, in order to really insult someone, you gotta really touch on something they're insecure about. At least, that's how it is for me. I have a lot of insecurities, but my ethnicity is simply not one of them. So, if someone insulted that, I wouldn't even care, I'd be more amused than anything else. 

I completely agree with you from a personal perspective.  You took the words right out of my mouth.  If the best you can do is take a shot at the place my ancestors originated, I must be doing alright.  

It's kind of like the exact opposite of damning with faint praise.

I also understand that, while you and I feel this way, others don't, and I think it would diminish me as a person to speak down to someone's ethnicity, so I would never do it, even if it was just for my own sake. Again, if that's the best I can do, I didn't do my homework.  

I have never used the term EQ before, but I think Leeanne is demonstrating low EQ.

I hear what you're saying too @Jel.  I find it much more rewarding to dig deep and entertain psychological impulses than to write someone off as a racist, or a bigot, but that's just me.  I might have a high tolerance for this stuff (and I got dogged a bit for my ethnicity, believe).  

Now take a man that's cheating or saying inappropriate things about women at his own wedding, like Rich?  I have a bizarrely low threshold for any of that shit, and trust and believe the next person you see will be a process server if you try that shit with me.

So everyone has different buttons I guess. 

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