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S04.E08: Chapter Sixty-Five: In Treatment


kariyaki
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As residents across Riverdale begin receiving more mysterious videotapes on their doorsteps, the seniors of Riverdale High eagerly await their college decision letters. Concerned that the stress may be getting to them, Mrs. Burble, the school's guidance counselor, meets with Betty, Archie, Veronica, Cheryl and Jughead to discuss what's plaguing them.

Airdate: Wednesday, December 4, 2019

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So, the trained school psychologist thinks that keeping an actual corpse in your home is no different from visiting a gravesite or having an urn on your mantle?  That explains so much about the kids going to Riverdale High.

I did love Kevin's little hand wave when Veronica interrupted his presentation to take her call.  It was like a deflated acknowledgement that "Yep, that's the only scene I'll be in this episode.  Hope you enjoyed it." 

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Fun episode.   I especially liked the Betty & Alice,  Veronica and Cheryl sessions.   The Jughead one was good too though.

i thought Betty and Alice were really funny in all there scenes.   Alice was on fire in her over protective mother and Berry in her one step away from blowing up and just taking everyone out routine. I have always enjoyed that.    I mean yeah it’s a little much when mom searches your room and even knows where all your hiding spots are.  
 

On the other side if the isle is Veronica and Hiram in their dance if death.  I kinda agree with shrink lady that they are obsessed with each other.   So much in fact that it will only end when one of them is dead.

I am glad we are moving past crazy Cheryl and to pissed off bad ass Cheryl.   If someone has been gaslighting her Cheryl is the type to unleash all kinds of unholy hell on that person.   It’s gonna be fun.

Jughead realizing he needs to put d  I am the conspiracy theories and just do his homework was a big step for him.  It might also fir in with what looks like an obvious set up for his death and the overriding conspiracy theory.   
 

Sketch Alley?  Really?   

Edited by Chaos Theory
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Not a bad episode, overall. It had some solid acting moments from the cast and some confirmation that the show knows what the character's flaws are. Too bad the therapy session didn't quite work out for some.

The Betty/Alice therapy session was....surprisingly productive? I mean, Alice got to admit that she loves Betty more than Polly (sorry Polly!). And Betty got to tell her mom off about what a shitty parent she's been. So...there's that. It was probably their most normal conversation in ages. I'm glad Alice finally repaid her for her college tuition. I mean, it's about damn time. She should have done that when she came back from the cult of Edgar Rocketman. 

Too bad I don't buy that Alice is going to just change like that. She'll probably be back to her ways in a couple of episodes.

Now, the Archie stuff was the weakest in terms of payoff with his therapy session. All it did was encourage Archie to be a somewhat smarter vigilante by using a tip line to actually FIND the bad guys. Sorry, Ms. Burble, but your advice didn't work on a lot of the characters, but Archie probably took the exact wrong lesson out of it.

That being said...his therapy session was the best in terms of emotional payoff. KJ did an excellent job in that scene. It was probably a therapeutic grief counselling session that Archie probably never had when he lost Fred.

I'm glad he was called out on his anger and that he snapped right back. Good to know that he really doesn't like being treated like an idiot, even though he can be. However, I think what I appreciated the most out of Archie's therapy session was that he was finally talking about his own feelings. He often focuses his energy on other people that his true feelings really do come out in spurts of anger. He uses his fists and not his words, so....at least, for a scene, he found a way to deal with his emotions in a healthy way.

Now, with him picking up his mask again at the end....maybe he's crossing over to help Oliver Queen and the others for Crisis (starting Sunday at 8pm EST/7pm CST!) Maybe an alternate version of Archie will come back!

Cheryl's session was solid, for the most part. I like that she's finally admitting that she feels like she's being driven crazy and that she's not ok. It's been eight full episodes of crazy so I'm so ready for her to move on to anything else. And Ms. Burble found a way to get her to realize that she isn't crazy. But now her next arc is angry Cheryl as she figures out who was driving her into insanity with the doll thing. Logically, it would be Penelope. But watch crazy Nana be not so crazy.

But really, Ms. Burble, you shouldn't be normalizing Jason's corpse. I don't think I can take another 13 episodes with Cheryl talking to Jason's corpse. She better be reburying his body next week.

I feel bad that she got the Vixens technically taken away, but it was for the right reasons. Cheryl should be finding a way to heal. Although it looks like she's probably going to be redirecting her emotions elsewhere, other than truly focusing on her own mental health. Well, baby steps?

Veronica.... *sighs* She had the weakest therapy session AND the most frustrating payoff afterward. Veronica also took away the exact WRONG lesson and decides that she'll reignite some war against Hiram. Did he look nervous? Sure, but Veronica's ALREADY tried fighting fire with fire before. It doesn't work. She didn't listen to a word Ms. Burble said and only focused in on a couple of points (that weren't even her main points!). I'm already tired of Round 107 of Veronica vs Hiram. What's going to be different this time around? Probably nothing. 

Jughead's therapy session...ok, I'll admit I kind of spaced out during it because I genuinely do not care about abusive Grandpa Jones or FP's rewritten history. But I did catch some of it and I didn't mind Jughead/FP's hug at the end.

Overall....relatively helpful therapy sessions, but it has proven that these characters need to CONTINUE going to therapy. See how much progress they made IN therapy? Sure, it didn't quite take outside of therapy for almost all of them, but if they continued to go, it would probably sink in!

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So was anyone else waiting for Ms. Burble to transform into a giant bat or have Principal Honey run into a Core Four member, hear them praise her, turn pale and say that Ms. Burble died in a train wreck fifteen years ago this very day, or something? If there's anybody in Riverdale I especially don't trust it's seemingly sane and kind authority figures who point out that this entire place is an open air lunatic asylum.

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So, the trained school psychologist thinks that keeping an actual corpse in your home is no different from visiting a gravesite or having an urn on your mantle?  That explains so much about the kids going to Riverdale High.

Honestly, if she read more than two pages of Cheryl's file I think she'd decide that's the only way to engage her! You have to show Cheryl that her over the top extraness is not only not going to put you off, but you understand why she's doing it. I think that's why she hasn't flipped out on Toni yet, too, honestly. 

Let's face it, any normal mental health care professional would take one glance at Riverdale's day to day life and these kids' histories and recommend enough Thorazine to float a battleship and basket weaving lessons for the next ten years. Ms. Burble (love that name) very wisely has seemed to realize that to show these group she gets what's going on, she has to show that she understands that in Riverdale your actions aren't crazy--they're a natural outgrowth of a crazy situation.

With Betty and Alice, she puts her finger on the pulse of their broken hearted, savage relationship--that Alice feels she's a total failure and she can't associate her child growing up with any kind of positive outcome. She sees it as doom closing in and her utter terror of blowing her last chance makes her do unforgivably intrusive things, and not only that but the same kind of intrusive things she's been doing for years, even as they make less sense of any kind given Betty's age and committed relationship with the man she shares a bed with. And of COURSE Betty is going to alternately control freak and lash out! That's what any sane person would do! It's almost nauseating how her sense of self has remained rock solid throughout this shitshow.

Same for all the others: Archie's anger and insistence on choosing violence being the only way he can express his terror and helplessness, Veronica's fury at opening every different door and finding her dad behind each one because she refuses to actually leave, Cheryl's --everything, Jughead's family legacy of channeling expectation into abstract intellectualism and refusal to engage and stake any real emotion or hope in outcomes. Those coping mechanisms didn't grow out of nowhere.

And of course a fifteen minute discussion, no matter how eye opening, isn't going to cure anybody or even give them coping skills. But now these guys can't say nobody told them, warned them, that staying on these paths is going to lead to ever more direness and disaster. 

  • Love 7
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Too bad she didn't say Brown; he would have probably stroked out right there.

Anyway, bits I liked:

The silly names for the candy and how everyone refuses any until Jug shamelessly shovels it into his pockets. This show is at its best when it remembers the characters have traits.

Mary looking really pretty in that dark blue sweater and necklace. Sooo much better than that flowery abomination she had on last week.

Apa's performance in his therapy session. When he finally snaps that he's not an idiot and he gets mad when he's treated like a moron, instead of laughing (I mean, come on) I went you know what? Yeah. His behavior is stupid and his choices ridiculous, but given the tidal bore of craziness he's pushing against? They make sense. 

Betty's core of sanity as she continually stands up against Alice's flailing. "I love you too, mom, but that's not an apology!" Damn straight, girl!

Veronica, despite how weary the entire Daddy And Me: The Longest Day that is her storyline makes me, also makes sense considering that she was raised by two morally bankrupt scumbags and in the most enmeshed relationship since My Sweet Audrina. Telling her to walk away is like telling her to jump off a cliff--it's not a choice she's going to make. No wonder she and Archie seem so made for each other--both are addicted to variations on keeping themselves locked onto a target they can never reach.

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While I still find a lot of the subjects on this show far too repetitive to still be happening in a Season 4, I did enjoy this  episode and the idea of using therapy to allow the characters to be transparent. And I hope at least some of the characters —namely CHERYL —will actually be able to move on and enter different stories. Veronica, too, but sadly this show won’t let go of Mark, so here we are.

Mads & KJ were probs my favorite performers. KJ has become one of the strongest on this show, and I hope the writers finally give him the material he deserves. He can do a hell of a lot more than fight & show off his abs and it’s far beyond time to allow this dude to shine.

I’m still the most interested in the flash forwards because it’s basically the only thing that’s “new” (not bc I really care about Jug or his abusive grandfather, lol).    I do think it’s more & more  likely the FF isn’t real, I’ve realized they all act really robotic in those scenes & we all know Betty, Archie, and Veronica don’t even speak to plot a murder together. 🤣*

*DEAR WRITERS: DO BETTER WITH YOUR CAST

Edited by HeatLifer
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Gina Torres seems like a pretty big get for this show.  Is she a fan or something?  Or was she shooting something else near-by and had some spare time, and was done for a solid paycheck?  Not that I'm complaining since she was pretty fun here as always.  I just loved watching her describe all of the current crazy shit each character was dealing with, and acted like it was the norm.  To be fair, she's probably not far off for a show/town like this!

The therapy sessions were overall pretty fun and I did find it interesting how it helped some, but not so much others.  Betty/Alice and Jughead all seem to take the advice to heart and Cheryl certainly finally got the jolt she might need to finally escape Crazytown, but both Archie and Veronica seem to be still going down their possibly self-destructive paths, only just taking different approaches with getting there.

So, now it is looking like Cheryl is being gaslit instead of being haunted.  I guess the question now is who is behind it?  Safe bet would be Penelope, since I have to imagine she would still have ways to sneak in the mansion and screw around.  Can't see it being Nana Rose, even though she lives there.  Maybe this is some bizarre game/revenge from Mr. Honey?  Of course, the ultimate betrayal would be if it was Toni for some reason.

I guess Kevin and Reggie didn't need any therapy!

Always love the drama with Ivy League schools, and how picking one over the other can cause so much issues.  I'm sure Yale is just as good as Harvard, but Hiram was acting like Veronica was threatening to sign up for community college or something.

I did think the cast shined more than normal here (although I still maintain they are generally good with the silly material they are given.)  K.J. Apa and Madelaine Petsch were good with the dramatic stuff, but I also enjoyed Camila Mendes playing Veronica's offended "How dare you think I have dad issues!  Even if I still call him daddy every other sentence!  And always bring him up..." righteousness, and Lili Reinhart playing Betty's "You see what I have to deal with?!" response to all the crazy that came out of Alice tonight.

Judging from the final scene/flash-forward, I'm guessing what is going on is that the gang faked Jughead's murder in order to trick Bret and Donna into exposing what really happened to Mr. Chipping somehow.  Not sure how it will all connect together, but that's my prediction right now.

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Wait, did the show forget there was an episode in a past season where Alice finds out Betty's having sex with Jughead and freaks out about it? Because that literally already happened on the show.

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I know to us common folk talking to a literal dead body is all kinds of creepy and maybe signs of an underlying mental illness but I thought the show did a good job showing just how much Cheryl has been through and how much she has actually lost or never had in the first place.    In the scheme of crazy Riverdale talking to the dead body of your brother does sound a lot like one of those comfort animal things.   It will fade away when she figures out who is gaslighting her.     Plus I doubt psychiatric facilities in Riverdale are up to code.  It’s more than likely Cheryl  will end up in one that does electroshock or another conversation camp.

If any of these kids go to Yale or Harvard wouldn’t the show be over?  More than likely they will all end up going to the newly created Riverdale University built by Hiram Lodge which ends up being a facility run by an evil administration that experiments on its students.

ya know the normal stuff.

Edited by Chaos Theory
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I thought Mrs. Burble and her Butter-Flingers thought Cheryl's brother was in a Crypt inside the Chapel in the basement of her Manor. Mrs. Burble equated it to going to someone's gravesite to talk, not like having a face to face chat. The only thing I kept seeing was how huge her office was. Alice should put all her psycho energy into getting the twins back, they could use some over-protection, they will thank Alice for it later.

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Aw, it's not a genre show without Gina Torres. I'm always so stoked when she shows up.

I kind of wished that they had leaned into the absurd fourth-wall-breaking nature of the psychotherapy sessions more but, depending how this murder mystery turns out, I guess I'll suspend judgement. I think that might be absurd and fourth-wall-breaking enough.

10 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

That being said...his therapy session was the best in terms of emotional payoff. KJ did an excellent job in that scene. It was probably a therapeutic grief counselling session that Archie probably never had when he lost Fred.

I'm learning that KJ Apa is one of those actors who gives it his all no matter what kind of show he's on or what kind of material he's getting, and I respect that. I hope I get to see him in lots of other stuff after this.

8 hours ago, Snookums said:

So was anyone else waiting for Ms. Burble to transform into a giant bat or have Principal Honey run into a Core Four member, hear them praise her, turn pale and say that Ms. Burble died in a train wreck fifteen years ago this very day, or something?

I thought for sure she was the video stalker and posing as a therapist was her way of taking the next step closer and invading people's lives.

7 hours ago, Snookums said:

Apa's performance in his therapy session. When he finally snaps that he's not an idiot and he gets mad when he's treated like a moron, instead of laughing (I mean, come on) I went you know what? Yeah.

...

Veronica, despite how weary the entire Daddy And Me: The Longest Day that is her storyline makes me, also makes sense considering that she was raised by two morally bankrupt scumbags and in the most enmeshed relationship since My Sweet Audrina. Telling her to walk away is like telling her to jump off a cliff--it's not a choice she's going to make. No wonder she and Archie seem so made for each other--both are addicted to variations on keeping themselves locked onto a target they can never reach.

1) You're a better person than me.

2) The Veronica thing bothered me a little, because the therapist's advice was "Go to Harvard but also alienate your dad so he won't pay for you to go to Harvard." I know it's not as sexy and scandalous as an Oedipus complex, but there are real, material reasons why teenagers don't want to get disowned by their parents and not having money to pay for stuff is one of them.

In Veronica's case, yes, she's locked into this struggle with her dad where she flatly refuses advice to walk away and instead leans into making her entire life about him (and his recently important rum business that we've never heard about before this season). But also you're asking someone who grew up expecting to be rich to suddenly choose being poor. That isn't such an easy thing.

5 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

So, now it is looking like Cheryl is being gaslit instead of being haunted.  I guess the question now is who is behind it?  Safe bet would be Penelope, since I have to imagine she would still have ways to sneak in the mansion and screw around.  Can't see it being Nana Rose, even though she lives there.  Maybe this is some bizarre game/revenge from Mr. Honey?  Of course, the ultimate betrayal would be if it was Toni for some reason.

Maybe because that's what she did to Toni when the doll was first introduced?

I thought it was a nice detail that Cheryl knew what gaslighting was right away as well as the movie it comes from, and that they didn't re-explain it to the audience.

4 hours ago, ruby24 said:

Wait, did the show forget there was an episode in a past season where Alice finds out Betty's having sex with Jughead and freaks out about it? Because that literally already happened on the show.

That whole plot point seemed insane. And also pointless when there are so many other things for them to argue about.

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5 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Of course, the ultimate betrayal would be if it was Toni for some reason.

That's what I was thinking it could be, because you know this show would absolutely go there.

As for the reasoning? I could see them giving Toni the reason to be gaslighting Cheryl because she wanted Cheryl to realize that she wasn't well and not that the doll was actually haunted by Cheryl's triplet that she ate from the womb. So Toni's goal was just trying to protect Cheryl by scaring her enough to admit that she needed help...but then Cheryl never did and just bought into the spirit stuff more and it was too late for Toni to come clean.

Or something like that.

4 minutes ago, SourK said:

Of course, the ultimate betrayal would be if it was Toni for some reason.

I'm sure that KJ Apa knows that this show is basically campy and melodramatic all at the same time, but I appreciate that he really focuses in to a more serious aspect in scenes like this. He adds nuance to a show that doesn't really have nuance. I mean, it's not often that he gets material like this, but when he does, he proves that he's one of the stronger actors.

6 minutes ago, SourK said:

2) The Veronica thing bothered me a little, because the therapist's advice was "Go to Harvard but also alienate your dad so he won't pay for you to go to Harvard." I know it's not as sexy and scandalous as an Oedipus complex, but there are real, material reasons why teenagers don't want to get disowned by their parents and not having money to pay for stuff is one of them.

In Veronica's case, yes, she's locked into this struggle with her dad where she flatly refuses advice to walk away and instead leans into making her entire life about him (and his recently important rum business that we've never heard about before this season). But also you're asking someone who grew up expecting to be rich to suddenly choose being poor. That isn't such an easy thing.

It's hard because I get why Ms. Burble gave the advice that she did. She didn't want Veronica to lose her shot at Harvard but she also wanted her to separate herself from him, and rightfully so. The only way Veronica will be able to let go is if she also lets go of the notion that being rich is everything. She does need to cut herself off completely, even at the risk of losing her inheritance. Or else she'll never ever escape. And that's something that I do think Veronica needs to learn this season. 

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I guess Kevin and Reggie didn't need any therapy!

Who? Oh, you mean the kid abused by his dad until he deliberately took out all the windows of his precious car (Dark, gritty Ferris Bueller) and darkly informed Archie it was okay because he outweighs his dad by fifty pounds through the bleakest smile in Purgatory, also that young man who was cult-married to a guy who nearly went off a cliff for a rocket-riding psycho while giving up a kidney and being abandoned by every parental figure! Nah, they're fine. 🙄

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Wait, did the show forget there was an episode in a past season where Alice finds out Betty's having sex with Jughead and freaks out about it? Because that literally already happened on the show.

That whole plot point seemed insane. And also pointless when there are so many other things for them to argue about.

It was beyond ridiculous, but for once I think that was the actual point. Alice is not only trying to sink her overprotective claws into Betty's flesh again, she's using the exact same arguments from before Betty found out her dad was a serial killer, helped Alice HIDE A DEAD BODY, and the usual plethora of lunacy. It's a sign of how desperate Alice is to forcibly drag Betty back to a more "controllable" level.

  • Love 6
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16 hours ago, Bulldog said:

So, the trained school psychologist thinks that keeping an actual corpse in your home is no different from visiting a gravesite or having an urn on your mantle?

I thought Cheryl stopped short of saying that she has the corpse out in the open air sitting in a chair.  The psychologist probably assumed there was a vault or coffin in the chapel that she's talking to.  I like the explanation that she's being gaslit, that makes a lot of sense.  

I can't help but think Veronica missed the entire point Mrs. Burble was trying to make about her father.  Looks like she's just redirecting her obsession in a different way.

Archie actually came off the craziest to me, with his playing Batman.

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20 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

i thought Betty and Alice were really funny in all there scenes.   Alice was on fire in her over protective mother and Berry in her one step away from blowing up and just taking everyone out routine. I have always enjoyed that.    I mean yeah it’s a little much when mom searches your room and even knows where all your hiding spots are.  

Alice, Hiram/Hermione, and Penelope are among the worst parents in tv history.  I kind of wish they would just drop all attempts at writing serious relationship drama with their kids because it's too comical.  Totally bad soap opera.

I can see the surprising twist in the Jughead murder plot coming from ten miles away.

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8 hours ago, Dobian said:

I can see the surprising twist in the Jughead murder plot coming from ten miles away.

What’s your conclusion?

I have several & and today I was stuck on his “death” being a ruse to screw with Donna and Brett.

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I am going with the Jughead death is a whole thing being used to prove his family is the original creator of the book series.  Either Jughead “doing the homework” himself and telling his school a really good story or  a roundabout way that his friends are helping him prove who actually stole the series out from under his grandfather.  

Edited by Chaos Theory
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8 hours ago, HeatLifer said:

What’s your conclusion?

I have several & and today I was stuck on his “death” being a ruse to screw with Donna and Brett.

That, and that his friends are all in on it.  They want to expose the whole Stonewall conspiracy.

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Its Gina Torres, and she is here to fix these kids and try to add some sanity to the blender of madness that is Riverdale! These kids need a freaking SWAT team of therapists to work on them for several years to get them back to any kind of well adjusted, but Mrs. B seems like a good start at least. I just hope that they all took her shockingly excellent advice to heart. I mean, she does know that this is Riverdale, right? She better watch herself, its dangerous being the rare reasonable adult around these parts! 

I love that Mrs. B seems to be acting as an audience surrogate half of the time, pointing out things that the audience has been saying for ages, like how Cheryl seems to be seeped in Gothic tropes, telling Archie that he is going to get seriously hurt or killed doing this vigilante thing, or letting Betty finally tell Alice off for being such a shitty mom. I also love how Mrs. B was just taking all of this in stride, and just asking good honest questions about what she was hearing, and not being like "umm wait, what the fuck?" every fifteen seconds, as I feel like I would be. I am just going to assume that she continued helping the various troubled youth of Riverdale (so most of them) in off screen land. 

The Betty and Alice talk was a long time coming, and I really loved Betty finally letting Alice have it, and the fact that the show remembers all of the shit she has pulled! Poor Polly, she has probably always caught on to the fact that Betty is her moms favorite and maybe thats why she is always so messed up, going from one hot mess to the next! Oh Betty, it must be nice for her to at least get that off her chest, and she even admitted that she loves Alice most too! I do hope that Betty gets to college soon and gets the hell away from Alice soon, the lady is just going to make her many issues worse. 

I love how Jughead grabbed a ton of candy before he left, its nice when this show remembers that these characters have some normal traits outside of dysfunction. As someone who has been annoyed that Jughead has spent more time on conspiracies and proving to these rich kids that he is totally from a super special writer family too than spending time with his best friend who just buried his father and is clearly self destructing, I enjoyed Mrs. B basically calling him out on how much he loves his tortured angsty Holden Caufield vibe and how he is basically looking for reasons to be angsty. Its also been something I have been kind of uncomfortable with, that he seems to be crusading to save the reputation of a grandpa who clearly hurt his father a lot growing up and not really thinking how that probably makes FP feel, so it was nice to see him giving him a hug. 

K.J really wins the Most Improved award for this show, he was excellent in the therapy session, especially when he started tearing up when he said how angry he was and then tried to pull it back. You know, as insane and ridiculous his choices are, in the context of Riverdale and the batshit insane things that happen on a regular basis, I do get it. I really hope he does take Mrs. Bs advice and focus on helping the kids and not chasing down bad guys armed with a crowbar and a prayer. 

Cheryl being gaslit is probably the best suggestion for what is going on with the doll, not sure who is doing it though. I do wonder if it is Toni, who did it originally to try and scare her into putting Jason's body back and admitting that she needs help or some other weird way of helping Cheryl, but now its gone too far and she cant stop. I also loved how Mrs. B just ignored every insult Cheryl tossed her way and just plowed on, and I do wonder if she really got how Cheryl was chatting with her dead brother after digging up his corpse, but maybe she was just "Well thats clearly not even remotely healthy, but by Riverdale standards...at least she isnt hurting herself or anyone else really, I will cross that bridge later." 

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9 hours ago, Dobian said:

That, and that his friends are all in on it.  They want to expose the whole Stonewall conspiracy.

If true, now I wonder what story they concocted to make anyone believe that Jug’s girlfriend and BFF would suddenly want to kill him, lol. New spec to chew on!

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It just struck me that Cheryl keeps her dead brother around in a chair to talk to, and we are talking about her getting gaslit.  Because yeah, she's so normal otherwise, right?  Well, normal for Riverdale, I guess.

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