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DHDancer

S02.E02: Nocturne

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Thanks for starting the thread!  I don't really like ghost stories anymore, so found this plot less involving than last week's story.  But I was fascinated at the end by another mysterious moment regarding the evidence:  when the black-gloved hand lifted the ring from the table of items taken from the killer, and opened it to reveal the main symbol of Masonry, the interlocked compasses.  So, that Masonic thread from last week is woven into another episode.

 

Did anyone catch that Endeavour walked past a giant poster of last week's Miss Great Britain (selling a tin of something).  That was in the first twenty minutes or so.

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Yes, I noticed the poster.  Nice touch.  I was also coming here to ask about the ring.  I find it hard to believe the father passed along to his illegitimate son.

Anyway, I got my weekly dose of Shaun Evans, which is my primary purpose for watching.

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What a good episode, a complex plot with two mysteries a hundred years apart, leisurely paced, somewhat convoluted with a thoroughly logical conclusion, just what I've come to expect from Masterpiece Mystery.  I normally detest the subplots of the hero's personal life, that's any detective, not just Morse, but Endeavour is such a shy quiet guy, I actually like it.  When Mr B-H came home with his Indian son I was reminded of Mr Earnshaw coming home with Heathcliff.

 

I knew the headmistress's accident had something to do with it, but never saw she was an heir to the B-H's.

Edited by sugarbaker design
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Question:  Was the girl presented to the American couple at the end the Indian girl from the school?  Love Shaun Evans....good actor and quietly sexy.

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Question:  Was the girl presented to the American couple at the end the Indian girl from the school?

I don't think so. I think she was a tall blonde. 

 

I can't believe that Morse didn't apologize to his neighbor.  Heh, from his perspective it probably was work.  I wonder why at the end he was staring at the picture of the little girl who survived.  I felt like I was missing something there.

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I've never watched Morse - is June Thursday a love interest in that? 

 

The little girl who survived had Downs Syndrome, and that was why she was institutionalized and why her father made her the scapegoat. I guess? Maybe? 

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The little girl who survived had Downs Syndrome, and that was why she was institutionalized and why her father made her the scapegoat. I guess? Maybe?

 

That's what I took from it.  I was wondering why her face was never shown in that flashback with her father.

 

I can't believe that Morse didn't apologize to his neighbor.

 

Give him a chance!  :)  There are still two episodes left.

Edited by sugarbaker design

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I think the girl who was presented to the American couple was Adrian's niece.

 

RE: June Thursday

I think she has the hots for Endeavour. I'm not sure if that is reciprocated. Kind of odd that Strange didn't know she was Thursday's daughter, but since Thursday leaves his work at the door, I guess it's explainable.

 

The ghost story had a Turn of the Screw feeling about it with the teacher seeing the ghost and being scared by it. It had a similar plot as Sherlock Holmes' The Adventure of the Priory School (illegitimate son who works as his father's secretary tries to kill legitimate son/heir of a dukedom). And a dab of Downtown Abbey (doorstepping an illegitimate child with a tenant farmer/hand). And the whole episode tried to have same plot as The Wench is Dead, where Morse solves a rape/murder/wrongly accused in Victorian-era Oxford. I think it succeeded in spite of it all.

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Free Masonry and the Police has been controversial in the UK for years. For about a decade in the late 90's to 2009, police and judges were required to declare their membership in the Masons.

I, too, took the picture of little girl to indicate Down's and that this is why she was institutionalized and "erased" from family photos.

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I've never watched Morse - is June Thursday a love interest in that

 

I don't remember any of the Thursdays being mentioned during Morse.  He did date every other woman in Oxford - except Mrs. Lewis. 

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June Thursday flirts with Morse, but I doubt that he has a clue.  They would make a lovely couple, but I guess he's going to be paired with his neighbor.

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I hope Endeavor apologizes to his awesome neighbor but I don't think he will.  He may be too embarrassed and think she won't listen to him.

 

Thursday's daughter is starting to annoy and that's a shame because Thursday himself is made of awesome.  The actor Roger Allam reminds me of Michael Caine and Michael Gambon--maybe he's their love child?  :)

 

The mystery was quite good and I liked how all of the cops were rattled by the child's death--I always like when Jenks is shown to be more thoughtful and kind than he lets on.

Edited by kitmerlot1213
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I think the girl who was presented to the American couple was Adrian's niece.

That wasn't Adrain's niece. The girl was sort of presented to the American couple by what I assume are the people who raised her. Adrian's niece lived with her uncle, and wore glasses and seemed a bit older than this girl.

   

RE: June Thursday

    I think she has the hots for Endeavour. I'm not sure if that is reciprocated. Kind of odd that Strange didn't know she was Thursday's daughter, but since Thursday leaves his work at the door, I guess it's explainable.

 

When they were at the pub Strange reiterated that his date was bringing along someone from work, he'd said he hadn't met this person nor did he know her name.

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True, no eye glasses on the grand-daughter. But wouldn't said grand-child be in their teens if said son was stationed in England during the War?

 

 

I don't remember any of the Thursdays being mentioned during Morse.  He did date every other woman in Oxford - except Mrs. Lewis.

 

I don't remember the Thursdays mentioned in Morse either-----which makes me wonder what happens to them. :-(  Nor do I recall Jakes mentioned in Morse.  Max and Strange seem to be the only ones who make it to Morse. :-(

 

Lol @ Mrs. Lewis crack (though I wouldn't be surprised if he DID date Val before she married Lewis.....being an Oxford girl born and bred). I wonder when Endeavour begins that dating marathon. He's already begun drinking.

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When they were at the pub Strange reiterated that his date was bringing along someone from work, he'd said he hadn't met this person nor did he know her name.

Right. Also, he recognized her when she came in, so he had met her before.

 

I thought this was a very enjoyable ep. I was kind of amused by Morse's long, convoluted explanation to Thursday as they drove to the school.

 

I suspected so many of the characters, even the American couple. There was something weird about them. Maybe it was the accents. :) Anyway, I was wondering if her being in a wheelchair was a ruse so people would underestimate them. I thought maybe they were after the old school. I know it doesn't make much sense, but they were just one of the suspects I had in mind. 

 

Heck, I was also suspecting the county detective. What a dick he was.

 

I also suspected the head mistress. Was her name Mrs. Sims? BTW, who was the actress? She looked very familiar.

 

I was irritated with Morse for lying to the nurse about having to work. MAYBE, as someone here said, he saw it as work, since it wasn't really pleasure, but still, I wish he had just said, "I forgot I promised one of the guys here I would go on a double-date with him. It's just a favor to him. I still want to take you to dinner." But I immediately knew when he lied that the nurse would run into him on his "date."

 

I don't know what it is about Shaun Evans' eyes, but they amaze me. 

Edited by peeayebee
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True, no eye glasses on the grand-daughter. But wouldn't said grand-child be in their teens if said son was stationed in England during the War?

 

No, the daughter would have to be at least 20, no older than 26 -- it is 1966 in the series, so the latest he would have been killed was 1945.  I was expecting it to be the niece, but the young woman at the end was just a random character, which was actually more satisfying.  Glad for the older couple!

 

I agree it seems strange that the ring would have been passed along to the illegitimate son -- especially given that it was a Masonic ring. 

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I also suspected the head mistress. Was her name Mrs. Sims?

I believe it was Symes. I figured she was in on it too somehow. But like you, I basically suspected everyone. I was also irritated Morse just didn't tell the nurse the truth or try to reschedule with her for the next night. But as stated above he still has two episodes to make amends and

it looked like they were kissing in next weeks episode

. No idea if previews are counting as spoilers here.

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I suspected so many of the characters, even the American couple. There was something weird about them. Maybe it was the accents. :)

 

I could've sworn Strange said they were from Massachusetts, but then they had almost Midwestern/Southern folksy accents so who the hell knows. I was confused.

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I don't know what it is about Shaun Evans' eyes, but they amaze me.

He reminds me a lot of my first boyfriend, although my fellow wasn't a ginger.  I'm sure I'm not projecting here at all.

 

I don't know what exactly I was expecting, but that was a much better episode than I could have hoped for.  Firstly, I thought having the World Cup (which was in fact held in and won by England in 1966) as a runner was great, especially since they must have stuck it in for the American audience because it aired in Britain a few months ago, before the World Cup started.  I love English country-house mysteries, and even though that's more Agatha Christie territory, they managed to tie it in to the present day events splendidly.

 

I'm increasingly impressed by Bright, who seems to actually listen to Morse and value his opinions more than he did at first.  Jakes is still an SOB, but you need an antagonist.

 

I still wish Morse had gone to watch the final match with the Thursdays.

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The little girl who survived had Downs Syndrome, and that was why she was institutionalized and why her father made her the scapegoat. I guess? Maybe?

 

 

That's what I took from it.  I was wondering why her face was never shown in that flashback with her father.

Yup.  Historically, D.S. children were treated terribly and often institutionalized, with no family contact.  Which makes me ragey (Beadboy1 has D.S.).

 

 

I was irritated with Morse for lying to the nurse about having to work. MAYBE, as someone here said, he saw it as work, since it wasn't really pleasure, but still, I wish he had just said, "I forgot I promised one of the guys here I would go on a double-date with him. It's just a favor to him. I still want to take you to dinner." But I immediately knew when he lied that the nurse would run into him on his "date."

It was so contrived, just for the purposes of the "misunderstanding," and I hate that.  Such a cliche in TV.

 

 

I suspected so many of the characters, even the American couple. There was something weird about them. Maybe it was the accents. :)

 

 

I could've sworn Strange said they were from Massachusetts, but then they had almost Midwestern/Southern folksy accents so who the hell knows. I was confused.

I suspect shows like this pick actors with bad American accents on purpose, perhaps as payback for all our horrible British accents.

 

I liked this episode; the hundred-year-old mystery was engaging and suitably creepy.  I also like how Bright and the young arrogant officer are warming to Morse; Bright by taking his ideas seriously in this one, and whatshisname when he enjoyed Morse's smack-down of the professor in the previous episode.

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Bright won me over last week when he accepted Morse's apology graciously and then proceeded to listen to him with absolutely no attitude when he had solved the case, and his completely shutting down DI Church by refusing to get into a jurisdictional pissing contest while they were standing over the body of the little girl confirmed that.

 

I also have to give him a lot of points for mentioning Burke and Hare, two Scottish resurrectionists from the early 19th century who would kill people and then sell their bodies to the University of Edinburgh's anatomists.

 

The 1866 murder, in addition to The Turn of the Screw also reminded me more than a little of a real murder that was featured in a book called The Suspicions of Mr Whicher, although I don't recommend anyone read it.  I wonder if that was intentional.

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Thursday, Bright, Strange, and, of course, Endeavour...I am liking these names.

 

As for the American couple, I heard their English accents peak through quite a bit.

 

I found the actual case to be convoluted though.

 

Shaun Adams is wonderful enough that even my least favorite Endeavour episode is fine.

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I'm reading a book about Catherine of Aragon so it amused me that they were talking about Wolsey. 

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Answering my own question: Mrs. Symes was played by Diane Fletcher. I checked IMDB, and I guess I recognized her from the original House of Cards where she played Francis' wife.

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Re: Masonic ring.

 

I don't know too much about the Masons, but they are sort of like a club, right? So if he quietly gave the ring (which belongs to the Masons) to his illegitimate son and the son quietly passes it to his son, then would the Masons know? 

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So if he quietly gave the ring (which belongs to the Masons) to his illegitimate son and the son quietly passes it to his son, then would the Masons know?

But someone must have known, otherwise why would you take the ring and know that it opens to show the symbol?

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"Answering my own question: Mrs. Symes was played by Diane Fletcher. I checked IMDB, and I guess I recognized her from the original House of Cards where she played Francis' wife."

 

Diane Fletcher also appeared in a Morse episode--intriguingly, "Masonic Mysteries."  

 

While Morse never dated Val Lewis her own self (LOL), the woman he's dating as "Masonic Mysteries" opens is played by Kevin Whately's wife, Madelaine Newton.  In characteristic Morse fashion, his attention quickly shifts from Madelaine Newton's character to Diane Fletcher's.  In the old "Morse" series, it never took him long to become smitten by fragile, neurotic women (who are potential suspects).

 

The connections multiply . . .

 

 

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I just discovered this show yesterday when this episode aired.  I really enjoyed it and hoped to go back and watch previous episodes/seasons.  I'm having difficulty finding them available anywhere.  Does anyone have any suggestions on where I could watch them?  I live in the U.S., btw.  Thanks.

Edited by VMepicgrl

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Really?  I can't find it on Netflix, not under "Endeavour" or under "Masterpiece Mystery".  I started to watch the one available episode on Netflix last week (from Season One, "GIrl"), but it had an expiration date of "July 1" on it, and indeed, it was gone the next day. 

 

pbs.org has been carrying the immediate past episode -- so, "Trove" was available all last week, but I don't know if it continues this week. 

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I just found it on NetFlix, but it is no longer available for streaming. :( You have to order the discs.

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Just discovered this.  Even though I record Masterpiece Mystery, last week I thought it was the Escape Artist still and did  not record it.  That show was too dark for me.  Loved last nights show and all the references to the world cup.  

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But someone must have known, otherwise why would you take the ring and know that it opens to show the symbol?

 

Maybe the Masons thought the ring was lost or misplaced or stolen???? Just this morning on the news, football great Jim Brown's 1964 NFL championship ring turned up on auction. Brown said the ring was stolen.

 

However, if the guy was wearing the ring in public, wouldn't a Mason have noticed it and, well, gotten it back?

 

Because if the guy was wearing it around in public, wouldn't a Mason have noticed it?

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I think the point is not how the ring got there, but that someone (I think we have a Strange suspect in mind!) is using access to police evidence to help the Masons.  We have now seen two different pieces of evidence lifted from crime scenes at the end of the past two episodes.  

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One thing that I've consistently disliked about the Endeavour mysteries is the Christie-like solutions. I like to think along with the detectives; I like being given actual clues, rather than shots of Morse poring over paperwork. And then Bingo! our hero has figured everything out, backstory and all. I always find myself less impressed with the intuition of the detective than annoyed with the storytelling.

 

On the other hand, these productions are otherwise very well done. The acting, the set decoration, the wardrobing and makeup. And Allam. He's the best.

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 Chief Superindentent Strange would most definitely have access to the evidence, but would PC Strange? It's all pointing to Strange because we know he's a Mason during Inspector Morse, but Jakes, Thursday and Bright can't be wholly ruled out.

Edited by Milz

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Bunty Glossop, according to the cast list.  I agree, sometimes, I just have to go to the captioning to figure out what they are saying. 

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I was irritated with Morse for lying to the nurse about having to work. MAYBE, as someone here said, he saw it as work, since it wasn't really pleasure, but still, I wish he had just said, "I forgot I promised one of the guys here I would go on a double-date with him. It's just a favor to him. I still want to take you to dinner." But I immediately knew when he lied that the nurse would run into him on his "date."

 

I don't know what it is about Shaun Evans' eyes, but they amaze me. 

I never can understand why people won't just tell the plain truth and make up stupid lies. I agree, dumb dramatic contrivance.

 

I don't know what it is about Shaun Evans' VOICE, but it amazes me.

 

Bunty Glossop, according to the cast list.  I agree, sometimes, I just have to go to the captioning to figure out what they are saying. 

"Bunty Glossop" sounds like a Jeeves & Wooster character :)

 

Glad others saw that the surviving daughter was Downs syndrome. I *thought* that was what I saw but wasn't sure and thought maybe I was just seeing things.

 

Cracking up moment of editing: The coroner is telling Morse about what the murder weapon could have been. "Even a kitchen knife, if it was sharp enough." Quick cut to a knife slicing a loaf of bread. :)

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I agree it seems strange that the ring would have been passed along to the illegitimate son -- especially given that it was a Masonic ring. 

 

 The ring was given to Robert from his father on his deathbed so, that doesn't mean he was granted an invite to be a Mason.

 

Did anyone find it strange that any police officer would think that an 11 year old with downs syndrome could bludgeon two adults?  And why was she playing the piano?  Was that just a rumor?

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Did anyone find it strange that any police officer would think that an 11 year old with downs syndrome could bludgeon two adults?  And why was she playing the piano?  Was that just a rumor?

 

One of the original investigating officers thought the other guy was being framed, but couldn't provide evidence. and his career went down the toilet. Besides that, the suspect was later found dead with his throat slashed ear to ear. So I guess it was more convenient to blame Charlotte.

 

Charlotte wasn't playing the piano. The original police investigation noted that when they entered the home, the music box was playing Nocturne. When Morse is questioning the girls, he asks if there was anyone among them who could play it on the piano.

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Also, males with down syndrome do not reproduce, and females with down syndrome have a 15-30% chance of carrying a baby full-term.  So I figured that at the time, the parents did not know this, and were worried that the youngest daughter with Trisome21 (Down syndrome) would inherit or her children would inherit, and  take away from the Indian heirs.

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Free Masonry and the Police has been controversial in the UK for years. For about a decade in the late 90's to 2009, police and judges were required to declare their membership in the Masons.

I, too, took the picture of little girl to indicate Down's and that this is why she was institutionalized and "erased" from family photos.

I misunderstood "required to declare their membership in the Masons" at first as membership being mandatory. Now I get that you were required to disclose your membership if you were a member. And I'm just writing it out in case anyone else also misunderstood.

 

I wonder where this one picture showing her face came from? And who drew the stick figures in the book? Because even there, her face was scratched out.

 

Charlotte wasn't playing the piano. The original police investigation noted that when they entered the home, the music box was playing Nocturne. When Morse is questioning the girls, he asks if there was anyone among them who could play it on the piano.

I thought at the very beginning of the episode, after we saw all the bodies, we saw a girl (in period clothing) playing the piano. Was this one of the current-day girls, or something we weren't really meant to remember?

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I'll have to rewatch when it comes on again. Because the Morse said the investigating officers noted the musicbox was playing Nocturne.

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