S01.E08: Betrayal

[Meredith Quill]

Episode Synopsis:

As the Magisterium closes in, Lyra learns more about Asriel’s rebellion. But her assistance to him comes at great personal cost.

[Quark]

This show is superb.

I've loved the entire season. The actress playing Lyra has come on leaps and bounds since the first episode. The scene where she was cradling Roger was heart-breaking.

And the music is just perfection.

[LiveenLetLive]

Excellent episode and I for one think that combining elements of the first and second books was a good idea. The Roger death scene was heartbreaking and Dafne Keen was terrific in it. I can't wait for the next series!

[Cranberry]

I have zero complaints about that finale. That was perfect. Asriel's talk with Lyra... I was afraid they'd downplay the religious elements like the movie did, but no, that talk mentioned Adam and Eve and the serpent and original sin... it answered a lot of questions I've seen non-book-readers ask over the season while also being a great father/daughter moment. Lyra's goodbye with Iorek, Asriel and Marisa's reunion (including their daemons snuggling), Lyra crying over Roger, both Lyra and Will crossing into another world... all perfect. 

I can't wait for season two.

[LiveenLetLive]

That kiss between Asriel and Marisa was swoon worthy! For one thing I just love Ruth Wilson as an actor, I didn't see the movie, but I can't imagine that Nicole Kidman played the character any better.

[scarynikki12]

Salcilia screaming that she didn't want to leave Roger broke me.

That was a brutal but brilliant finale to an amazing season.

[Cranberry]

I have high hopes for the next couple seasons now, knowing they're not afraid to delve into certain anti-religion elements and seeing how they've set up Will's strength and character already. I wonder how long we have to wait.

[Llywela]

I thought Lyra was supposed to be the one who did the betraying? Or is that still to come? The only person who did any betraying here was Asriel.

[Cranberry]

Lyra unknowingly betrayed Roger by bringing him to Asriel as a sacrifice.

[Llywela]

1 hour ago, Cranberry said:

Lyra unknowingly betrayed Roger by bringing him to Asriel as a sacrifice.

See, that's a cop out to me. A betrayal is a conscious choice, deliberately made, not an honest error made in all good faith on the best information available. Asriel chose to betray his daughter by sacrificing her friend, knowing full well what he was doing. Lyra did not choose to betray anyone, she thought she was doing the right thing and had no way of knowing what the outcome would be. That's a mistake, not a betrayal. Roger himself chose to go with her, she didn't make him come, and she didn't actively hand him over to Asriel for his experiment in the knowledge what would happen. This was just a way of having the dire prophecy without the hero having to actively choose to do the bad thing. I don't buy it. Lyra made a mistake, but Asriel was the only person who betrayed anyone here.

[iMonrey]

They made a huge deal of of Serafina telling Lee he's responsible for Lyra and then he wasn't even in the final episode, and now Lyra has walked off alone to some other world. What exactly was the point of Lee Scoresby again? 

[AnimeMania]

If your daemons do that when you kiss each other, I would hate to see what they are doing while you are having sex.

So did Will find the portal because he read his father's letters, because he followed a cat (that wasn't the same cat that got stomped on at Will's house was it, it was way too dark for me to tell), or through sheer dumb luck (I mean Destiny)?

Am I supposed to like Mrs. Coulter now? At least I saw her pet her daemon.

Now that they explained what Dust is, can somebody explain it to me? I feel like the explanation went right over my head. Did Lord Asriel say that Adam and Eve had daemons that didn't have a set form until they ate the "apple/forbidden fruit"?

Did anybody see Thorold's daemon, this is why I have problems with the show, I saw nothing, but it was very dark most of the time.

Lyra was hiding in crack when the bombs were dropping, then all of a sudden she is standing right in the middle of the crevasse. Be Better Lyra.

[go4luca]

Iorek better be back or I will riot.  He's currently my favorite character.

[Llywela]

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

They made a huge deal of of Serafina telling Lee he's responsible for Lyra and then he wasn't even in the final episode, and now Lyra has walked off alone to some other world. What exactly was the point of Lee Scoresby again? 

Transport from the part of the North where the kidnapped kids were to the other part of the North where the bears live? That's all I got.

[scarynikki12]

23 minutes ago, AnimeMania said:

Now that they explained what Dust is, can somebody explain it to me? I feel like the explanation went right over my head

The truth is that no one actually knows what Dust is or does. The Magisterium believes that Dust is bad and is the origin of human sin. Their only evidence is that kids don't look to attract Dust until they hit puberty and they use this to reinforce their existing beliefs and justify their horrible actions. Asriel theorized that Dust isn't bad and is seeking to learn more though he also uses this to justify his own horrible deeds. We should get more information as the series progresses but that's what we know as of now.

 

[Cranberry]

The Magisterium thinks that Dust is the physical manifestation of original sin, and that it is, as Asriel said, "raining down from the sky, settling on humanity and infecting our souls with evil."

Quote

So did Will find the portal because he read his father's letters, because he followed a cat (that wasn't the same cat that got stomped on at Will's house was it, it was way too dark for me to tell), or through sheer dumb luck (I mean Destiny)?

Not the same cat -- Will's cat is a grey tabby and this one was a calico. Will's cat just tripped the guy; she's okay.

Very vague book spoilers (they don't give away any plot points):

Spoiler

We could assume it's fate that a cat saved Will and that another cat led him to the window. Will loves cats and they have been (and will continue to be) important in his life. The book put a little more focus on his cat, Moxie, than the show did, although it didn't change the story any, just showed how much Will cared about her.

 

[WatchrTina]

Well color me disappointed.  I hate cliff-hanger endings to a season and I don't like seeing children in jeopardy so Lyra and the other kid (I've forgotten his name) stepping through tears in the universe all by themselves just fills me with dread.

I read all the books years ago and I don't recall having that reaction but perhaps that's because I could dive right into the next book (so no such thing as a cliffhanger ending.)

So . . . Lord Asriel has been revealed to be a complete dick.  As is his former lover, Mrs. Coulter.  Those two were made for each other.  In fact, he's WORSE than Mrs. Coulter since she actually thought her team were "saving" the children from sin by cutting away their deamons while Asriel knew perfectly well that he was murdering a child in order to capture a wave of energy.  Like I said . . . a complete dick.

I don't much care if I see the next season.  This season has left me cold, and I'm not talking bout the arctic setting.

[iMonrey]

Quote

The Magisterium believes that Dust is bad and is the origin of human sin. Their only evidence is that kids don't look to attract Dust until they hit puberty and they use this to reinforce their existing beliefs and justify their horrible actions. 

So in that framework, no child is ever guilty of sin until he or she hits puberty? That sounds like a very specific and narrow definition of sin. 

Quote

In fact, he's WORSE than Mrs. Coulter since she actually thought her team were "saving" the children from sin by cutting away their deamons

What's to prevent sin/dust from raining down on children regardless of whether or not they have their daemons? Do you need a soul/daemon to commit sin, or do you just need one to feel bad about it? I'm not sure I get the mechanics of how "dust" and "daemons" work in concert.

Then again I was never really one to understand religion, which is probably why the series has left me a bit nonplussed.

[meira.hand]

20 hours ago, AnimeMania said:

Am I supposed to like Mrs. Coulter now? At least I saw her pet her daemon.

I did not get the impression she was petting it, but actually hurting him by squeezing his nape very hard. He was not enjoying it but grimacing and groaning. You could also see that of course this caused her pain as well, which looked a little like indirect self harming. It was really odd.

There were two other examples, sweet ones in this case, of the synchronicity between the characters and their daemons: the one you mentioned of Marisa Coulter and Lord Asriel daemons making out even before their humans kissed, sort of a hint of what was going on in their minds even before they acted on it. The other one was Roger's daemon going backward with him when they entered the bathroom with Lyra in the tab. Does this mean that Roger can see what his daemon sees? It was extremely sweet & funny.

 

[bluvelvet]

I read the books YEARS ago so have forgotten the details of the plot.  For example, did not recall that Asriel essentially did the same thing Mrs. Coulter was doing for his own end.  Very sad to see Roger go like that.  Another question, did Asriel go to our world? If he did then I assume a man walking around with a snow leopard would attract attention. Since the other dude's daemon is a snake, that you can hide but a leopard I assume would get locked up?

Yeah I also wonder what daemon's do when their humans are being intimate??

Love the kid who plays Will, can't wait to see how he reacts to the other worlds. I assume his mother has some knowledge, hence her mental frailty.

I thought this started off a bit slow, didn't really pick up for me until episode 4, but ended strong. Looking forward to next season.

Edited December 29, 2019 by bluvelvet
Grammar

[Cranberry]

6 hours ago, iMonrey said:

What's to prevent sin/dust from raining down on children regardless of whether or not they have their daemons? Do you need a soul/daemon to commit sin, or do you just need one to feel bad about it? I'm not sure I get the mechanics of how "dust" and "daemons" work in concert.

In their world's version of the Bible, when Eve ate the apple (the original sin), her daemon settled into its true form and dust became attracted to her. When kids go through puberty, their daemon settles and dust becomes attracted to them. It's all tied up in the Magisterium leaders' minds that puberty --> daemons settling --> dust (product of that original sin, and therefore sin itself) becoming attracted to them.

[Capricasix]

On 12/25/2019 at 12:24 PM, meira.hand said:

The other one was Roger's daemon going backward with him when they entered the bathroom with Lyra in the tab. Does this mean that Roger can see what his daemon sees? It was extremely sweet & funny.

 

Humans and daemons don’t see the same things, but they share thoughts -

Spoiler

the books describe them as being the same person, albeit in separate bodies.

 

[scrb]

Lyra was nonplussed when she learned Mrs. Coulter was her mother.

Asriel was nonplussed when Lyra told him that she knew he was her father.

No teary reunions in this family!

The only close bond Lyra formed was with Roger, whom Marisa kidnapped and then Asriel sacrificed to the Lord of Light ...

Er different show, sacrificed to the great Aurora.

That portal wasn’t exactly subtle.  What’s to keep others from either side from rushing in?

Lyra had a tearful goodbye with Roger.  Will she hold his death against her parents or will it be forgotten?

 

 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

As soon as Asriel said that the bond between a human and their daemon was powerful and beautiful but then immediately followed that up with how it creates an immense release of energy when the link is severed, I knew Roger was going to be the sacrificial lamb. RIP sweet Roger. I'm glad he and Lyra got to have one more night of friendship before Asriel murdered Salcilia.

[Shorty186]

Soooo did Mrs. Coulter know Asriel had the know how to release a bunch of energy by killing the child/daemon and she was trying to adjust it so it would "only" sever their bond, but keep them alive? I just don't understand why what he did actually killed Roger and Salcilia. I kept hoping maybe he was still alive and if Lyra brought him to our world he might be okay since we don't have daemons. Are we going to see more of Andrew Scott? Isn't he too big to only see him in a couple video clips? Unless this was filmed pre-Fleabag. 

[Llywela]

14 hours ago, Shorty186 said:

Soooo did Mrs. Coulter know Asriel had the know how to release a bunch of energy by killing the child/daemon and she was trying to adjust it so it would "only" sever their bond, but keep them alive? I just don't understand why what he did actually killed Roger and Salcilia.

In an earlier episode, at Bolvanger, the scientists talked about how their new severing machine had increased the survival rate - implying that quite a lot of the children they cut were killed by the procedure. I forget the figures they quoted, but even that increased survival rate sounded fairly low. Asriel's equipment was a lot more basic, therefore the odds of surviving the procedure would be lower again still. Poor Roger.

Edited December 28, 2019 by Llywela

[tennisgurl]

Salcilia crying for Roger and Lyra finding his dead body just hurt my heart. It took me way too long to watch this episode, mainly because I didnt want this season to end, but I am glad that I finally did, it was a great ending to the season. Wrapped up a lot of arcs, but left a lot open for further adventures next season.

You know Mrs. Coulter and Lord Asriel are close, their daemons were all snuggly when hey saw each other! That was a great moment, among many others, like

Spoiler

the talk between Lyra and Will about how they changed each others lives (sob!)

, Lorek and Lyla saying goodbye (only for a short time though!) and this stories version of the Adam and Eve story (complete with daemons!) and the continued exploration of whatever Dust really is. 

[go4luca]

I miss this show.  Eight episodes for a season is short and went by way too fast. 😐

[Prower]

I like this show and liked this season in general. But the second half of the season seemed way too hectic and like it skipped over a bunch of things, or didn't flesh it out, like all the bear stuff. Could that be the result of them using two books?

On 12/24/2019 at 9:00 AM, Cranberry said:

Lyra unknowingly betrayed Roger by bringing him to Asriel as a sacrifice.

That's not how betrayels work. You have to intentionally fuck somebody over to betray them. That's not stretching thhe definition, that's breaking it. I hate when authors do this and pretend they are sooo clever.

On 12/24/2019 at 10:33 AM, Llywela said:

Roger himself chose to go with her, she didn't make him come

Roger also suddenly turned into a massive idiot. He remarked that Asriel looked at him like a wolf, like two hours earlier and yet suddenly he was totally fine following him out to the fucking north pole with nobody around and leaving Lyra behind? Oh please. That was some bad writing. Was this also in the books?

On 12/24/2019 at 10:23 PM, AnimeMania said:

Now that they explained what Dust is, can somebody explain it to me? I feel like the explanation went right over my head. Did Lord Asriel say that Adam and Eve had daemons that didn't have a set form until they ate the "apple/forbidden fruit"?

They didn't really explain anything about dust, since they don't know anything. They all just throw out half bbaked theories.

And yes, to the Adam and Eve stuff.

Edited January 2, 2020 by Prower

[Tachi Rocinante]

Bye, Roger.  Bummer.

I know Pullman is a militant agnostic, but the whole Dust business makes him sound like a closet Scientologist.

[Speakeasy]

On 1/2/2020 at 1:50 PM, Prower said:

I like this show and liked this season in general. But the second half of the season seemed way too hectic and like it skipped over a bunch of things, or didn't flesh it out, like all the bear stuff. Could that be the result of them using two books?

I thought the bear stuff was rushed and Lee Scoresby seemed a bit pointless, he's a big deal in the books but he's basically just a schauffer in the series so far... Though unlike a lot of commentators I actually like Miranda's take on him, he isn't winning any acting awards but I think he's fun and he has great banter with his Daemon.

The witches are also a big deal, and they made a big thing about them but it just seemed to be Serafina turning up, being eerily beautiful, cryptic and deadly, and then going away again.

Scoresby and Iorek both develop this incredibly intense loyalty and love for Lyra and I'm not sure it's quite believable, I don't know if that's down to them not having enough time together or whether it's something else.

Im not really a fan of the stuff in our world, I think that ate up too much time, though I think it is probably a good idea to introduce Will here if he's going to be a big figure in future seasons.

The visuals have gotten better and better as the series went on through... Yeah, sometimes it looks like there aren't enough daemons in big crowd scenes but when you see them you notice them and they look beautiful, and everything just works; the balloon, the zeppelins, the bears... The BEARS! Aren't the bears gorgeous? They're this amazing mix of like... Barbaric grandeur and fairytale whimsy.

And it's a minor point because they're just evil mooks, but am I the only one who thinks those Magisterium paratroopers with the falcon daemons look awesome? With that one scene where you watched them jump out of the zeppelin and the camera followed the daemon as she followed her human? Its a new addition as well, but it really works as a little extrapolation about the world; that's the kind of daemon that would be practical for that kind of job and a falcon WORKS as a spirit animal for special forces guys. Like I said I might be the only one who likes them..

On 1/2/2020 at 1:50 PM, Prower said:

That's not how betrayels work. You have to intentionally fuck somebody over to betray them. That's not stretching thhe definition, that's breaking it. I hate when authors do this and pretend they are sooo clever.

I forgot that they said Lyra was going to make the betrayal, I thought they were saying she would be betrayed... If she is supposed to betray someone, yeah, it had better be later on (I read the books as a child and don't remember all the details) because she acted in good faith all the way and it's not just inaccurate but cruel to blame the poor girl for her parents being a pair of fucking monsters.

Incidentally on that score: I wasn't sure about James McAvoy when I heard he was cast because I've only seen him as Sexy Young Professor X before this, but I think he was fantastic as Asriel, he's kind of a hard guy to cast because he has to have this kind of presence and this tempered ferocity, and I think he pulled it off really well.

On 1/2/2020 at 1:50 PM, Prower said:

Roger also suddenly turned into a massive idiot. He remarked that Asriel looked at him like a wolf, like two hours earlier and yet suddenly he was totally fine following him out to the fucking north pole with nobody around and leaving Lyra behind? Oh please. That was some bad writing. Was this also in the books?

I was going to say that he might have just been scared and it wasn't like a tiny child could do much to get away from an experienced 30-something fighter/explorer/man if action with a snow leopard Daemon... Then I remembered they were brought to Asriel's lab by the King of the Magic Polar Bears, who brought a platoon of magic polar bears with him.

Bear (ha!) in mind Iorek has explained that he cannot be lied to.

Roger: Ok, Mr Lord Asriel sir, so we're just going up the mountain to get a... IOREK! IOREK I'M BEING KIDNAPPED!

Iorek: What seems to be going on here? Lord Asriel?

Asriel: Ah, your Majesty, congratulations on your coronation, I knew you could do it...

Iorek: Liar

Asriel: Yes, well... Roger and I were just going to go up the mountain, I have a surprise for my daughter which has been waiting up there and I need an extra pair of hands to...

Iorek: Liar

Asriel: Alright... We heard that the Magisterium is coming here so we were going to make sure my secret escape route is clear before bringing my daughter to...

Iorek: Liar

Asriel: Ok.... Fuck,

On 1/2/2020 at 1:50 PM, Prower said:

They didn't really explain anything about dust, since they don't know anything. They all just throw out half baked theories.

And yes, to the Adam and Eve stuff.

Dust is a kind of complicated and weird idea to get across, they keep mentioning it but the fact they're trying to convey is that THEY , the characters, don't actually really know what it is.

The Magisterium have latched onto this theory about it being the source of all evil because it kind of fits with their theology if you squint, and they're investigating any kind of avenue to make the world a better place in accordance with their theology. I'm sure there are two prongs to their interest as well; true believers like Coulter who genuinely think Daemons make everything awful once you get to puberty* and more cynically minded people who think that having a big chunk of the working class being a somewhat more functional version of that nurse at Bolvanger could have some advantages.

* I mean in fairness to Coulter, puberty is hard enough in a liberal,non magical world like ours, imagine being a teenage girl going through puberty and having to deal with your emergent sexuality in a harsh, puritanical patriarchy that told you everything you were starting to feel was because you are inherently evil AND having a creepy little monkey staring at you all the way through.

[Llywela]

Okay, so since the show ended I have gone away and read the first book, and only the first book, to see how it compared with the show, since I have seen countless comments all through the episode threads about how this and that aren't being explained as well as they are in the books, or this or that character isn't coming across as they should.

And having now read that first book, I have to say, I think the show has done a good job and adapted it remarkably faithfully. I noticed very few meaningful changes. A lot of the human-daemon explanations in the book are internal monologues which are hard to translate onto the screen, but they did their best to show the relationship, with added lines of dialogue here and there as well.

And to the person above who thinks Lee Scoresby is a really big deal - he might be in later books, but he plays no greater role in the first book than he did in this first season.

[Speakeasy]

21 minutes ago, Llywela said:

 

And to the person above who thinks Lee Scoresby is a really big deal - he might be in later books, but he plays no greater role in the first book than he did in this first season.

Fair enough then.

Edited January 6, 2020 by Speakeasy

[Prower]

On 1/6/2020 at 12:23 PM, Speakeasy said:

I was going to say that he might have just been scared and it wasn't like a tiny child could do much to get away from an experienced 30-something fighter/explorer/man if action with a snow leopard Daemon... Then I remembered they were brought to Asriel's lab by the King of the Magic Polar Bears, who brought a platoon of magic polar bears with him.

He was also sleeping next to Lyra. He could have screamed and woken her up. It's unlikely Asriel would do anything to him while she was there and even if he tried, Lyra has a good connection to a bunch of bears, as you said.

 

 

[Ravenya003]

On 1/7/2020 at 12:23 AM, Speakeasy said:

 

Quote

That's not how betrayels work. You have to intentionally fuck somebody over to betray them. That's not stretching thhe definition, that's breaking it. I hate when authors do this and pretend they are sooo clever.

I forgot that they said Lyra was going to make the betrayal, I thought they were saying she would be betrayed... If she is supposed to betray someone, yeah, it had better be later on (I read the books as a child and don't remember all the details) because she acted in good faith all the way and it's not just inaccurate but cruel to blame the poor girl for her parents being a pair of fucking monsters.

I'm a book reader, and the betrayal is definitely still to come.

That said, when I read the first book for the first time, I definitely assumed that Lyra unwittingly leading Roger to his doom was the betrayal that the Jordan Master spoke of, and the show itself seemed to go with that interpretation by having his words echoed in the "previously on" segment of the episode. 

So either the screenwriter got confused, or it's a deliberate red herring.

Extremely vague spoiler:

Spoiler

(As honestly, the "real" betrayal doesn't make much more sense as an actual betrayal than this one).  

 

Edited January 8, 2020 by Ravenya003

[walnutqueen]

I can't recall why I decided to record this show, as I'd heard nothing about it, and am not a big fan of the fantasy genre (GoT excepted), but I'm glad I did.  I'm also glad I waited to binge all 8 episodes without reading any of the forums - I avoid spoilers and "book talk" - it made for a great day of tv.

Such a great show!  I cannot wait for Season 2.

With parents like Mommie Dearest and Dickswab Daddy, Lyra would be better off as an orphan.

[Affogato]

It took me a while to get to watching the last episode.  
 

i think that the betrayal in this episode is the betrayal of Lyra’s innocence. She has eaten the apple. 
 

that said, I think this was well done. The scene where Roger and Lyra talked under  the bed tent was much needed to show their friendship. The hint of Will and Lyra on either side of a portal is a good way to tease a second season. 

Edited January 12, 2020 by Affogato

[cleo]

Interesting choice to have the parents of the main character basically kidnapping, torturing, and killing kids. 

Cause I've been wondering throughout the show whether Mrs Coulter can be redeemed. I don't think Asriel can come back from outright murdering a child, and not only that but displaying a complete disregard for the impact on his daughter. I mean that is like sociopathic behaviour.

Mrs Coulter seems slightly less evil in retrospect and in comparison.

Again I find the religious stuff just too on the nose and one of the worst parts. As soon as they start talking about sin my eyes glaze over.

I'm thinking about reading the books, I'm really on the fence. 

[Cranberry]

Read them; they're excellent. I enjoy the show and I think it's a pretty faithful adaptation, but the books will give you a lot more information about daemons and the church, plus more insight into people's character (especially Lyra's).

[cleo]

Yeah if season 2 comes out in Nov I was thinking I would watch it and then maybe read all three books over Xmas. 

[paramitch]

On 12/23/2019 at 11:26 PM, Llywela said:

I thought Lyra was supposed to be the one who did the betraying? Or is that still to come? The only person who did any betraying here was Asriel.

The prophecy says Lyra will betray someone. It doesn't specify that it would happen immediately.

On 12/24/2019 at 11:45 AM, iMonrey said:

They made a huge deal of of Serafina telling Lee he's responsible for Lyra and then he wasn't even in the final episode, and now Lyra has walked off alone to some other world. What exactly was the point of Lee Scoresby again? 

Lee played the same role in the show as in book 1. He was responsible for helping to bring Iorek onboard, he (like Iorek) finds himself caring deeply for Lyra, and committing beyond that initial mission. And he's still trying to be there for her, and has an unfinished role yet to play based on the end of this episode.

On 12/24/2019 at 6:46 PM, WatchrTina said:

Well color me disappointed.  I hate cliff-hanger endings to a season and I don't like seeing children in jeopardy so Lyra and the other kid (I've forgotten his name) stepping through tears in the universe all by themselves just fills me with dread.

I read all the books years ago and I don't recall having that reaction but perhaps that's because I could dive right into the next book (so no such thing as a cliffhanger ending.)

So . . . Lord Asriel has been revealed to be a complete dick.  As is his former lover, Mrs. Coulter.  Those two were made for each other.  In fact, he's WORSE than Mrs. Coulter since she actually thought her team were "saving" the children from sin by cutting away their deamons while Asriel knew perfectly well that he was murdering a child in order to capture a wave of energy.  Like I said . . . a complete dick.

I don't much care if I see the next season.  This season has left me cold, and I'm not talking bout the arctic setting.

The ending of the show here was 100% true to the end of book 1. It brought in Will a bit early (which I think was dramatically necessary and well-done, so that we already know him for season/book 2), but it was almost word-perfect to the book. Was it a downer? Yeah. And totally true to the books.

Mrs. Coulter and Asriel are terrible people but fantastic villains because, to me, they embody believable shades of grey. We already know Asriel loves Lyra (albeit almost reluctantly). We already know Mrs. Coulter loves Lyra fiercely. We also know that Mrs. C and Asriel are awful. But each believes they work for a bigger picture: Mrs. Coulter has been warped by her own sin and fall from grace to believe that she must solve the mystery of Dust and save humanity from the "sin" of Dust (gah). We also know from Asriel's own words that he also believes he is fighting for something bigger.

In Asriel's defense, he does not defend the death of Roger or defend his actions as acceptable. He knows what he is going to do and how terrible it is. Unlike Mrs. Coulter, bleating about "saving children" etc., Asriel does appear genuinely tortured by what he is going to do and what he has done with Roger's death. Asriel also plainly situates himself on the chessboard here -- he openly says he is doing all of this to bring down the very Magisterium itself (the dark force of this universe, the religious entity that has swallowed this world, that abuses and kills with impunity, that fills the world with the idea of sin, that owns everything from learning to politics). He also plainly hints that bringing down the Magisterium is just the first part of his plan.

Mrs. Coulter wants to shackle the world and protect it from "sin." Asriel wants to do away from the myths and mystiques of "sin" and religious imprisonment entirely.

So -- is Ariel a terrible, horrible person? Yeah. I hate what he did. But I think he does too. Meanwhile, do I still kind of root for him? Yeah, I do. 

On 12/25/2019 at 9:12 AM, iMonrey said:

So in that framework, no child is ever guilty of sin until he or she hits puberty? That sounds like a very specific and narrow definition of sin. 

What's to prevent sin/dust from raining down on children regardless of whether or not they have their daemons? Do you need a soul/daemon to commit sin, or do you just need one to feel bad about it? I'm not sure I get the mechanics of how "dust" and "daemons" work in concert.

Then again I was never really one to understand religion, which is probably why the series has left me a bit nonplussed.

1. With the Magisterium, the author Pullman is giving us a very Catholic definition of sin, in which sin arrives with the emergence of sexuality. Echoing Catholic interpretation of Original Sin.

2. This is why Mrs. C. feels empowered to torture children and take their lives -- she can excuse it as "I am saving future children from sin." Daemons are not necessarily sinful at all -- all the show has shown is that daemons are living representations of each person's soul that age with them through life. 

Daemons are not depicted as sinful (even passively) so much as outward animal representations of their person's inner soul. Mrs. C. is trying to find a way to "negate" Daemons (and their potential "sinful" aspects) by severing them -- so that daemon and person still live, but lose that essential life force that enables them to attract Dust. It's really gross.

Because she is self-hating and filled with conflict about sin, Mrs. C is trying to prove that because adolescence attracts Dust, it means becoming an adolescent (i.e., becoming sexual) means people become sinful. She then simplistically decides to split people from their daemons (their OWN SOULS) to try to "help" them not become sinful. It's ridiculous. She can't see it. But it's no more silly than the beliefs of a lot of organized religion for thousands of years to right this moment.

On 12/27/2019 at 10:23 PM, Shorty186 said:

Soooo did Mrs. Coulter know Asriel had the know how to release a bunch of energy by killing the child/daemon and she was trying to adjust it so it would "only" sever their bond, but keep them alive? I just don't understand why what he did actually killed Roger and Salcilia. I kept hoping maybe he was still alive and if Lyra brought him to our world he might be okay since we don't have daemons. Are we going to see more of Andrew Scott? Isn't he too big to only see him in a couple video clips? Unless this was filmed pre-Fleabag. 

Mrs. Coulter knew about the energy release but all that concerned her was the separation of child and daemon/soul. Many of her early conversations about the Machine refer to the energy burst and almost 100% fatality of separating the children from their daemons. It was only the version of the machine at Lyra's Bolvangar that enabled children to really begin surviving the procedure. 

The trauma of the separation killed Roger and Salcilia simultaneously. Even if he had survived the trauma is implied to have been so great that he would have died within a day or two, like Billy Costa.

About Andrew Scott, 

Spoiler

His character is a pretty important one, and one who has several key scenes to come.

 

On 1/2/2020 at 5:50 AM, Prower said:

I like this show and liked this season in general. But the second half of the season seemed way too hectic and like it skipped over a bunch of things, or didn't flesh it out, like all the bear stuff. Could that be the result of them using two books?

That's not how betrayels work. You have to intentionally fuck somebody over to betray them. That's not stretching thhe definition, that's breaking it. I hate when authors do this and pretend they are sooo clever.

Roger also suddenly turned into a massive idiot. He remarked that Asriel looked at him like a wolf, like two hours earlier and yet suddenly he was totally fine following him out to the fucking north pole with nobody around and leaving Lyra behind? Oh please. That was some bad writing. Was this also in the books?

They didn't really explain anything about dust, since they don't know anything. They all just throw out half bbaked theories.

Answers:

1. Most of this season was 100% focused on book 1. The only glimmers of book 2 included here were the scenes with Will and his Mom, and Boreal (all of which are appropriate from a timeline standpoint). Episode 1 also included a brief flashback to a scene from the second trilogy, but otherwise the show was extremely faithful to season 1 equaling book 1, including the bear politics and situations. I would say the biggest changes were to the witches' society (which is more complex).

2. Nobody has confirmed what the Betrayal would be or that it has happened yet. A lot of people are assuming things at this point.

3. Roger was alone on top of a mountain in a blizzard with his trusted best friend. He was scared of Asriel's reaction but had no real reason to think Asriel wished him harm. Also, Asriel used Roger's love of Lyra against him in the dialogue, and it's why Roger went with him (he thought Lyra needed help). 

4. Dust is pretty thoroughly explained in the first three books and so far the show is keeping pace fairly well.

On 1/6/2020 at 3:23 AM, Speakeasy said:

I thought the bear stuff was rushed and Lee Scoresby seemed a bit pointless, he's a big deal in the books but he's basically just a schauffer in the series so far... Though unlike a lot of commentators I actually like Miranda's take on him, he isn't winning any acting awards but I think he's fun and he has great banter with his Daemon.

Scoresby and Iorek both develop this incredibly intense loyalty and love for Lyra and I'm not sure it's quite believable, I don't know if that's down to them not having enough time together or whether it's something else.

The visuals have gotten better and better as the series went on through... Yeah, sometimes it looks like there aren't enough daemons in big crowd scenes but when you see them you notice them and they look beautiful, and everything just works; the balloon, the zeppelins, the bears... The BEARS! Aren't the bears gorgeous? They're this amazing mix of like... Barbaric grandeur and fairytale whimsy.

I wasn't sure about James McAvoy when I heard he was cast because I've only seen him as Sexy Young Professor X before this, but I think he was fantastic as Asriel, he's kind of a hard guy to cast because he has to have this kind of presence and this tempered ferocity, and I think he pulled it off really well.

I was going to say that he might have just been scared and it wasn't like a tiny child could do much to get away from an experienced 30-something fighter/explorer/man if action with a snow leopard Daemon... Then I remembered they were brought to Asriel's lab by the King of the Magic Polar Bears, who brought a platoon of magic polar bears with him.

Iorek becomes 100% loyal to Lyra because she (1) frees him from slavery, (2) proves her own courage, going to find Billy alone, and (3) restores his throne. To me that's pretty believable. Lee's opinion of her is hugely tied to Iorek's, and he's also more tenderhearted in general and quickly sees her as a daughter of sorts. I bought it.

I agree on McAvoy -- one of my favorite actors, hugely talented and charismatic, but I couldn't quite see him being as fierce and cold as Asriel until I saw him here, and he's amazing in the part.

Iorek had gone off to sleep and wasn't aware the children were in any danger. Lyra had to call for him when she came out to go after Roger and Asriel. Also, Roger may have been a little afraid of Asriel, but he wasn't screaming or carried along violently -- he went willingly with Asriel, believing the lie that they were helping Lyra.

On 1/7/2020 at 1:58 PM, Prower said:

He was also sleeping next to Lyra. He could have screamed and woken her up. It's unlikely Asriel would do anything to him while she was there and even if he tried, Lyra has a good connection to a bunch of bears, as you said.

Asriel deliberately separated Roger and Lyra earlier in the night to have their conversation about Dust, and when you look back it's obvious that he did so -- at least in part -- so that Lyra would not be sleeping in the tent with Roger. When Asriel took Roger away, Lyra was sleeping off separately in a chair.

On 9/24/2020 at 4:04 PM, cleo said:

Cause I've been wondering throughout the show whether Mrs Coulter can be redeemed. I don't think Asriel can come back from outright murdering a child, and not only that but displaying a complete disregard for the impact on his daughter. I mean that is like sociopathic behaviour.

Mrs Coulter seems slightly less evil in retrospect and in comparison.

I'm thinking about reading the books, I'm really on the fence. 

I'm a book reader, longtime (I adore them). But based on season 1/book 1, my favorite thing here is that we aren't really being asked to like Mrs. Coulter or Asriel, so much as to understand them. So we get a Mrs. Coulter who is a monster willing to torture and murder children, or to kill countless others, to "save" mankind from sin, but who truly loves Lyra. Or -- on the other side of the chessboard -- an Asriel who ruthlessly abandoned his own child then kills another one (her dearest friend, no less) in the name of "saving" mankind from the Magisterium. I love me some complex villains, so that works for me. In reality, evil people are capable of love, so humanizing them is different from saying they are redeemable.

If you want a more complex understanding of the characters, I definitely recommend the books, which are absolutely gorgeous. But for me, so far, the show is doing a beautiful job.

[Anela]

So, her parents are both despicable people. Poor Roger. :(

I am really enjoying the series, but when I started, I kept falling asleep. I've been taking care of one of my dogs, who has been more stressed, and I haven't slept much. I like that the episodes actually feel long enough, and we're getting the story. I haven't read all of the books, but I did start the first one. It's probably helping, that I haven't read them, so I'm not busy comparing the two.

I missed some of what happened with the boy in the other world. I just know that the man was after something, and he's just found out that it was a boy. 

[Anela]

Oh, I didn't know this was the season finale. I should have known, with that ending. 

[Bill1978]

On 12/3/2021 at 2:59 PM, Anela said:

I am really enjoying the series, but when I started, I kept falling asleep.

I felt the same with the first series but mainly because I had seen the movie so a lot of the first few episodes felt like extended scenes from the movie, but once the show moved beyond the end of the movie's plot I was fully engaged in every episode and keen to discover where this story was going. I haven't read the books so have no idea what is going on as I watch this show now.

I think that's why I found Will's scenes in the first season mroe engaging that Lyra's world because I had no idea what was going to happen cause the movie hadn't spoiled any plot points with his story.

[angora]

Great season! The finale was emotionally brutal, as I knew it would be, but it brought everything to the screen so effectively. Roger's daemon crying out when they were in the cage, saying that she didn't want to leave him--my god! The completely charged atmosphere of Mrs. Coulter confronting Lord Asriel, the gorgeous imagery of Lyra and Will both stepping through the windows... so well done.

Dafne Keen and Amir Wilson are both terrific. I'm excited to watch season 2 now and see more of them. As for the adult cast, the show seems to have a knack for taking actors that I definitely wouldn't have imagined in the roles and then proving how fantastic they are in them. Ruth Wilson is out here killing it as Mrs. Coulter, and James McAvoy is just so damn good in this. The scenes between Asriel and Lyra in this episode were fantastic. And more Iorek, always and forever!

I didn't put this in the episode 7 thread, because I knew my reaction was based on my book knowledge, but the way McAvoy plays Lyra and Roger's arrival at the end of that episode is incredible. He's not just angry just to see Lyra, he's *frantic*, insisting that she was to leave immediately. When you know that he needs to sacrifice a child for his next big move in his "war" with the Magisterium, you realize that, okay, he doesn't *want* that child to be Lyra, but he also feels that he can't trust himself *not* to sacrifice her if it's down to the wire and she's the only child around. So then when he sees Roger, that frenzy instantly cools, but beneath the calm is this almost fevered excitement in his eyes. What a stellar bit of acting.

It just kills me that Roger twigs this, and even shares his worries with Lyra, but then they end up talking about Lyra's feelings about the father-daughter reunion instead. Obviously, I cut Lyra plenty of slack--she's a kid, Asriel was a massive dick to her, and she's feeling a lot of feelings. When it comes to Roger's fate, the blame lies squarely at Asriel's feet. But this scene between her and Roger hurts, because Lyra is *clever*, and if she was paying attention, she probably could have put enough together to realize Roger was in danger with Asriel, at least enough to want to consult the alethiometer about it.