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S10.E08: The World Before

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Airdate 2019.11.24 

90-minute midseason finale

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A fight causes tensions in Oceanside while the Alexandrians set out on a high-stakes mission.

Mod Note:  This thread is for discussion of the episode only.  If you didn't see it happen onscreen, discussion of it does not belong here and your post WILL be removed.  DO NOT DISCUSS CASTING NEWS, including reported cast comings and goings.   We have separate threads for discussing spoilers or the comics.  

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So, our gang just finds out that Dante is a Whisperer spy who befriended and then betrayed them, murdered Siddiq and was going to kill Rosita. I don't know if Siddiq ever bothered to tell anyone about the water as well.  Immediately following that, dumbass Aaron tells them, "Oh, I met this Whisperer girl. Her name is Mary. She's nice. She told me where to find the massive herd. Don't worry! This whisperer is being honest. Let's trust her, okay guys?"

Everyone: "Okay, Aaron. If you say so. We're sure she's trustworthy and had nothing do to with that nasty heads on pikes business. Let's go. " Duh.

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Pretty much my collective reaction to this evenings MSF. Alpha luring them to the cave was something out of Scooby Doo, and I was SO pissed at Carol for giving chase. I actually like Gamma Mary, and I really hope Alpha didn’t beat the intel out of her ☹️ I’d trade Gamma Mary for Lydia any day of the week. Alpha can keep her Dotta. 

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Carol is boring me so much this season and I think it’s because I could care less about Henry and his demise so I have no patience for emo, pill popping, vengeful-ish Carol.... 

Naturally it is taken me 8 episodes to work that out 😂

Edited by BellyLaughter
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Luke's weapon doesn't look like it would do much damage.  Two Cogswell's Cogs or Spacely Space Sprockets attached to one end of a stick in opposite directions on said stick looks like it could easily get wedged in a walker's skull.

The merry band of morons know that Carol is impulsive, and as a result stupid.  Even Daryl knows that.  Early in this episode, Daryl was given very intelligent dialogue.   It didn't fit his character at all.  At the end of the episode he doubled down on his normal stupidity by having all of the potential redshirts chase after Carol. 

The big reveal that showed how Dante arrived at Alexandria was poorly done.  The writers should have shown the viewers that in real time as it happened from the start.  Not a flashback.  The first half of the season wouldn't have had so many boring episodes if we were clued in from the start as to how Dante arrived in Alexandria.  Viewers would have been more likely to be on the edge of their seats every time Dante was on screen

I guess that was Dante's mask that the protagonists found.  The mask they were talking about earlier in the season when they were at Oceanside..

Judith is an obnoxious little snot.  She is mouthy.  She doesn't come off as the least bit likable.  The writers are doing her no favors.  Turning Judith into some sort of little super fighter just makes the rest of the protagonists look bad when it comes to their fighting skills.

Edited by icemiser69
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I got so bored with last week's episode I turned it off before it was over.  I thought that was the MSF.  Not sure I can muster up enough interest to watch this one.  Guess I'm done with this show.  Too many years of terrible writing and uninteresting characters have ruined it for me.  The show should have been put down years ago.

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This show is hard on doctors. 

And Judith is quite the little ass-kicker.  Which I would expect being raised by Michonne but still, good to see the Rick/Shane dna at work there.  Maybe Lori, too, I guess although I can't really remember Lori killing a lot of walkers.  Or being much of a bad-ass although I suppose she was at the end.  That hat, though, shouldn't it be getting pretty beat up by now? 

Carol's not that fleet of foot and, neither is Daryl, so the idea that they're running over rough terrain with any hope at all of catching anyone , that's fairly laughable.  There was a time when Carol was the one getting other people out of trouble, now she seems to be the one landing others in it.  

So Gabriel was concerned about the Whisperer Carol and Daryl brought back, making sure he got medical treatment --although obviously that didn't work out so well-- but has no trouble knifing the spy Dante to death, just to get it over with I suppose.  

Why do I feel like the Island with the cache of weapons isn't going to be what Michonne's hoping it is.  And why would she go alone?  

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56 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

Judith is an obnoxious little snot.  She is mouthy.  She doesn't come off as the least bit likable.  The writers are doing her no favors.  Turning Judith into some sort of little super fighter just makes the rest of the protagonists look bad when it comes to their fighting skills.

I like Judith.  But then I also liked Carl.  I think she seems like a typical kid, which let's face it most kids that age can be kind of annoying. 

And her being a fighter, I would imagine that would be something you need to be teaching kids pretty early on in the ZA, especially with Michonne as her mom and how she lost her own son in the early days.  She's going to want to give Judith all the survival skills she can, while she can. It's not like she fought off a whole horde or something. 

I'd rather see her fighting than have her be placed in jeopardy.  When Michonne was screaming her name before they cut to commercial I figured oh, great, the library guy has snatched her or something.  But then I didn't really appreciate zombie Siddiq growling and shuffling his way towards Coco either even though I was pretty sure the show wasn't going to allow a baby to be devoured that way.

Edited by Dodginblue
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8 hours ago, AngelaHunter said:

So, our gang just finds out that Dante is a Whisperer spy who befriended and then betrayed them, murdered Siddiq and was going to kill Rosita. I don't know if Siddiq ever bothered to tell anyone about the water as well.  Immediately following that, dumbass Aaron tells them, "Oh, I met this Whisperer girl. Her name is Mary. She's nice. She told me where to find the massive herd. Don't worry! This whisperer is being honest. Let's trust her, okay guys?"

Everyone: "Okay, Aaron. If you say so. We're sure she's trustworthy and had nothing do to with that nasty heads on pikes business. Let's go. " Duh.

And boom goes the dynamite. The whole time I'm watching like 

image.png.f5267dfe40f23d4bc936566eb40f5352.png

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I absolutely loved this line. It needs to be written in tall legible letters and be affixed in EVERY writer’s room anywhere.

The Carol-and-Daryl gang is traipsing through the woods. Carol spots the queen-bitch and gives chase. Daryl — lamely — calls out: “No. We need to stick together!”

Then they ALL get caught.

Dog has better recall then the humans on this show.

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2 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

Early in this episode, Daryl was given very intelligent dialogue.   It didn't fit his character at all. 

This thoughtful, sure, insightful and comforting Daryl - where did he come from?  Did he take some magic Wisdom Potion with effects that last only 1 minute?

2 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

The first half of the season wouldn't have had so many boring episodes if we were clued in from the start as to how Dante arrived in Alexandria.  Viewers would have been more likely to be on the edge of their seats every time Dante was on screen

Exactly! As it was we were just vaguely wondering where this doctor came from every time we saw him. Annoying, but not riveting.

2 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

The big reveal that showed how Dante arrived at Alexandria was poorly done. 

Very poorly done and pointless. It looked like an afterthought, as though some writer said, "Oh, shit - all this time this guy was there and we forgot to give him an entrance. Better think of something and stick it in there somewhere. Anywhere will do."

3 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

Judith is an obnoxious little snot.  She is mouthy.  She doesn't come off as the least bit likable.  The writers are doing her no favors.

That's for sure. She's like some annoying, know-it-all brat from a sit-com, smarter than all the adults. She's given terrible lines that no kid could say and sound believable. The relationship between her and Michonne never seems to be that of mother/daughter to me. It just seems forced and contrived.

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I feel like I say it every week that this show is still capable of pulling off good parts that are quite good.  But then there's the rest and it's really ... just not.

The Dante backstory effectively told us HOW he managed to get into Alexandria into a position of relative trust but it still did nothing to address the WHY.  Which is largely the hole in the entire Whisperer storyline.  Why?  What on earth is the appeal of the Whisperer way of life that makes them willing to undermine otherwise functional communities that would probably gladly take them in for the extra labor if nothing else?  Any answer beyond oh, they're a cult will do at this point.  Okay, so Dante lost a son.  We've seen that do terrible things to people.  Still, how does that make you go from a person who remembers showers and not eating grubs to corpse wearing and strangling a person you claim you really liked?

The waste of Siddiq's potential as a character aside, everything about his death and the aftermath was fairly well done.  It gave Rosita, a character I mostly don't mind but have never felt super strongly about either, some good motivation and character work.  It's kind of hard to be at all okay after you have to stab your former baby daddy through the head to keep him from eating your baby.   It also gave Seth Gilliam a rare chance to remind us that he's a fairly good actor who unfortunately goes long stretches without getting much to work with.  Gabriel was effective in realizing that he'd done everything they were supposed to do in vetting Dante and he'd still ended up with a stealth Whisperer anyway and then just being completely over it when Dante was taunting him that of course the Alexandria council would want to give him a fair hearing and then probably dither back and forth over what to do with him the way they did Negan. So he handled it.  It's probably the most I've liked him in forever.

I can't even be a little surprised at this point that a group went out ostensibly planning to stick together and stick to the plan and then went running hither and yon at the first obvious distraction.  It's kind of what they do.  Daryl's gotten more lines verging on speeches in the last season and change since Rick fell off the bridge than he did in all the seasons before combined, but he had a valid point that Carol's not thinking rationally at all right now and they need somewhere in there to decide if getting revenge is worth getting killed over.  Yes, the corpse wearing weirdos need to be dealt with, but being reactionary and letting yourself be baited into a trap isn't helping.  Ending the midseason in a giant underground walker mosh pit is just laughable.

Michonne, I love you but you don't find it at all sketchy that this guy you just met that the Oceanside women are clearly leery of just happens to supposedly have access to a naval base full of weapons that you can surely have if you just go back to his secret island lair with him?  You do remember that you have two children depending on you, right?

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Welp, I guess TWD took a page out of How to Poorly Light Essential Scenes from GoT. If it wasn't for the spoilers I read last week I'd have never known what the Scooby group was facing in the dark cave.

Friggin Carol, what has hell has happened to you? She used to be so kickass, now she's just a brooding shell of Terminus Carol.

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1 hour ago, AngelaHunter said:

That's for sure. She's like some annoying, know-it-all brat from a sit-com, smarter than all the adults. She's given terrible lines that no kid could say and sound believable. The relationship between her and Michonne never seems to be that of mother/daughter to me. It just seems forced and contrived.

100%.  That matter-of-fact, overly self assured expression she has on her face all the time and the tone of her voice grates on my last nerve.  TWD is an adult show.  Having little kids as characters annoys the hell out of me, much like people who can't do anything unless it involves their kids...or people who can't stand in a photograph without their kid as a prop.  UGH.

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If Michonne just had to go off sailing with the guy, why didn't she bring along a couple other people with her, just in case the guy is suspect?  It made no sense for her to go alone with him.

I hope RJ is happy with Nabila and her kids and if (when?) Michonne comes back he says "Who?"    

Edited by Ohwell
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Judith works for me in the sense that despite being carried and cared for by everyone who ever lived in the last decade in the showverse and raised mostly by Michonne, she's still entirely Lori's bio daughter.  It's hilarious to me to see her as a mini Lori, who knew everything and was right about everything and everything was always about her.

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5 hours ago, Haleth said:

The show should have been put down years ago.

I don't root for any series to get cancelled.  If I don't like it, I stop watching. If other people enjoy a series, why would I want to ruin it for them by wanting it cancelled?  Besides, there is always a chance that the writing gets better.  That can't happen if the series gets cancelled.

5 hours ago, Dodginblue said:

So Gabriel was concerned about the Whisperer Carol and Daryl brought back, making sure he got medical treatment --although obviously that didn't work out so well-- but has no trouble knifing the spy Dante to death, just to get it over with I suppose.  

Gabriel was a fool.  He let his emotions get in the way.  Nothing good happens when people let their emotions get in the way.

I was so hoping that Alexandria would have figured out who Dante was without him knowing that his cover had been blown.  Then follow him to his message drop.  Read the messages and get inside info on the Whisperers.   Perhaps replace the messages with info that would give the protagonists an advantage when dealing with the Whisperers.  The writers missed a golden opportunity.

5 hours ago, Dodginblue said:

I'd rather see her fighting than have her be placed in jeopardy. 

Every time she fights she is being put in jeopardy.  Any competent fighter would be able to kill her rather easily.  If for no other reason than an adult has a much longer reach than she does.

13 hours ago, AngelaHunter said:

Everyone: "Okay, Aaron. If you say so. We're sure she's trustworthy and had nothing do to with that nasty heads on pikes business. Let's go. " Duh.

Aaron was trusting and verifying, nothing wrong with that.  They didn't bring enough people to fight all of the Whisperers.  It looked like more of a scouting party than anything else.  Isn't there supposed to be at least a hundred Whisperers, and probably several hundred walkers?  No way that little group could take on that many people.  That said, Carol would have blown it anyway.  She is a liability. 

Edited by icemiser69
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4 hours ago, SamBeckett said:

The Carol-and-Daryl gang is traipsing through the woods. Carol spots the queen-bitch and gives chase. Daryl — lamely — calls out: “No. We need to stick together!”

Then they ALL get caught.

Would he have said that if it wasn't Carol's life on the line?  Would he have everyone run after Luke?  I don't think so.

4 hours ago, SamBeckett said:

Dog has better recall then the humans on this show.

I was surprised that Dog wasn't with them.  I am glad he wasn't.

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38 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

Judith works for me in the sense that despite being carried and cared for by everyone who ever lived in the last decade in the showverse and raised mostly by Michonne, she's still entirely Lori's bio daughter.  It's hilarious to me to see her as a mini Lori, who knew everything and was right about everything and everything was always about her.

Hah, ya know, I completely forgot that she's Lori's kid. I just look and remember its Shane's kid that Michonne is raising now.

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After the beat down Rosita gave him, Dante's face should have looked like mashed potatoes. Yet in the very next scene where they're questioning him he was only vaguely bruised. TV and movie beatings rarely leave serious external damage.

Actually the opening scene was probably the most compelling thing the show has done in years. I can't remember the last time I was even mildly engaged. Unfortunately once the show pivots back to the Whisperers I lose interest again. It's all just so silly.

They did a live poll on Talking Dead asking fans who the "most terrifying" villain was in the entire series and viewers chose Alpha! With Negan second. Cripes. Alpha is the most cartoonish villain the show has ever had for sure, but terrifying? I simply cannot take her seriously. She is not a character that works in live action. 

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I don't root for any series to get cancelled.  If I don't like it, I stop watching. If other people enjoy a series, why would I want to ruin it for them by wanting it cancelled?

Because like any addiction you need someone else to pull the plug for you.

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54 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

Because like any addiction you need someone else to pull the plug for you.

That is not true for addiction or for anyone's enjoyment of a show you happen to dislike.

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I feel really sorry for Carol.  When you think of what's she been through, it's amazing she can still function.  She started off as an abused wife who was unable to protect her daughter.  She transformed herself into a hard, cold, kick-ass fighter who "put down" a child who was a danger to them all.  Then she allows herself to fall in love and adopt another child, and once again she is unable to protect that child.  Honestly, she should be a stark-raving lunatic by now.  I don't think they've necessarily done a great job at writing that, but gosh my heart goes out to her.  It's like the world is conspiring to make sure she can never have any peace.

I still like Daryl.  I don't know why, but he's always been a favorite character.  He's always seemed to me to be a lot smarter than the writers will actually let him be, and he should have put Carol on a leash during that last mission.  

Can someone please refresh my memory?  Where did Aaron's kid come from?  I do not remember when or where he picked her up at all.

I also don't get the appeal of Alpha to her cult followers.  While the idea of hiding among the walkers is smart, Michonne did it better and without becoming completely creepy and abusive.  And I fail to understand her hatred of our folk.  If she had left them alone at the beginning, they would never have even known she and her group existed.  Both groups could have peacefully co-existed.  But she started this by killing Jesus, which was totally unnecessary.  She's really just another psycho like Negan.  I think I almost want to see Negan kill her and then one of our group take out Negan.  Be done with the two most boring villains in the history of cinema.

Rosita.  I don't even know what to think.  That's some seriously messed up shit to have to deal with.  It will be nothing short of miraculous if she doesn't end up on the crazy train with Carol.

I have so many questions about the herd.  Why are they underground?  How did they get there?  How will Alpha get them out when she needs them?  Oh well.  Guess we'll find out in a few months.  I really hate these mid-season breaks.  By the time the show comes back in February, I'll be like huh?

 

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So are Daryl, Carol and "those other people" in trouble at the end of the episode?

Because I saw them running off after Alpha and then the scene went dark, I heard some walker growling and then the episode ended...

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8 minutes ago, wmdekooning said:

So are Daryl, Carol and "those other people" in trouble at the end of the episode?

Because I saw them running off after Alpha and then the scene went dark, I heard some walker growling and then the episode ended...

Yes.  They all ended up falling down the rabbit hole to discover that the herd is being kept in some underground cavern.  At least "our heroes" are up on the ledge instead of down in the pit with the walkers.  But I am anxious because it seems like the deaf girl who is friends with Daryl and Jerry are both in that hole.  I don't want to lose either of them.

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1 minute ago, LadyMustang65 said:

Yes.  They all ended up falling down the rabbit hole to discover that the herd is being kept in some underground cavern.  At least "our heroes" are up on the ledge instead of down in the pit with the walkers.  But I am anxious because it seems like the deaf girl who is friends with Daryl and Jerry are both in that hole.  I don't want to lose either of them.

You know those teevees that show tons of HD detail and make the dark, poorly lit scenes visible? I don't have one of those and you must, because I was like, "What the heck is going on?!" 

Certainly it's par for the course and seems to be bedrock and iron clad that a mid-season or even season finale be a cliffhanger. Honestly, I'm over such...

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My random thoughts:

As I watched Michonne's touching goodbye to Judith, I almost forgot she had another kid at home.   Did she even mention him? 

When did Daryl get so touchy-feely?  "Talk to me, Carol."  I liked him better when he was gruffer.

Once I could finally make out what was in the pitch-black cave, it was so anticlimactic.  Big whoop, walkers in a cave!  Meh.  I'm just growing tired of everyone running from the herds.  Seven years after the apocalypse, they should be pretty sparse by now.  It's not like they can multiply, and everyone knows how to properly kill people now. 

I've seen Samantha Morton in other roles and liked her, but on here, she just overdoes it, IMO.  This show sure does like keeping the villains around.  Doctors are another matter.

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You know those teevees that show tons of HD detail and make the dark, poorly lit scenes visible? I don't have one of those and you must, because I was like, "What the heck is going on?!" 

I don't know what kind of TVs those dark scenes are made for but from what I can gather few people have them. I have friends with a very expensive 60" HD TV and they complain about the too-dark scenes as much as anyone else. Is there a special kind of HDTV that makes scenes like this watchable? Otherwise, I have to turn the brightness level up as high as it will go on the TV in order to be able to make out what's going on. 

What's really baffling is that there are enough behind-the-scenes stuff to determine those scenes aren't even dark when they shoot them. They are made artificially dark in post-production. That's probably where the problem is. Whatever equipment they're using to adjust the darkness doesn't look the same on most televisions sets, even the higher end HD ones.

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41 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

I don't know what kind of TVs those dark scenes are made for but from what I can gather few people have them. I have friends with a very expensive 60" HD TV and they complain about the too-dark scenes as much as anyone else. Is there a special kind of HDTV that makes scenes like this watchable? Otherwise, I have to turn the brightness level up as high as it will go on the TV in order to be able to make out what's going on. 

So, I spent years being unable to see so many scenes on TWD and Game of Thrones, until some GoT poster mentioned something about adjusting something that was not color/brightness.  I checked my cheapo Walmart Samsung "smart tv" last year and found settings for picture mode (standard, natural,movie, dynamic).  Played around with them on a dark GoT scene until I found the sharpest for my old eyes - "dynamic".  I bitch to the Universe a lot less these days, and can almost sorta make out what's happening in those dark scenes.  Apparently, there are many features I never bothered learning about or exploring, because by the time I got the basic setup of that cheapo tv sorted out, I was beyond dunzo.  

Too bad Dog didn't go along on this mission.  I was hoping for a Lassie "Timmy's fallen down the well" rescue scene.

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1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

I don't know what kind of TVs those dark scenes are made for but from what I can gather few people have them. I have friends with a very expensive 60" HD TV and they complain about the too-dark scenes as much as anyone else. Is there a special kind of HDTV that makes scenes like this watchable? Otherwise, I have to turn the brightness level up as high as it will go on the TV in order to be able to make out what's going on. 

What's really baffling is that there are enough behind-the-scenes stuff to determine those scenes aren't even dark when they shoot them. They are made artificially dark in post-production. That's probably where the problem is. Whatever equipment they're using to adjust the darkness doesn't look the same on most televisions sets, even the higher end HD ones.

Plasma is he best for dark gradients.  I now have an update hdtv and I miss my Panasonic Plasma.

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2 hours ago, LadyMustang65 said:

I have so many questions about the herd.  Why are they underground?  How did they get there?  How will Alpha get them out when she needs them?  Oh well.  Guess we'll find out in a few months.  I really hate these mid-season breaks.  By the time the show comes back in February, I'll be like huh?

the-batcave-dc-comics.jpg

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The cave thing was so ridiculous. They're running through the forest, and then all of a sudden there's a cave, and they just run right inside and then all fall down a giant hole? *insert eye roll*

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1 hour ago, LadyMustang65 said:

But I am anxious because it seems like the deaf girl who is friends with Daryl and Jerry are both in that hole.  I don't want to lose either of them.

Based on the previews for the second half of the season, which were shown at the end of the episode, things do not look good for big Jerry.

I've decided that TWD is set in locations that don't match our reality. Of course, no one would name a planned community Alexandria when there's already a big city with that name in the area. Tonight, there was a stop in Waterford, Va., which I drive through every day. While it has an elementary school and a community center, there's no library there. (The entire village is designated as a national historic site due to its founding in 1733 by Quakers.) And later, Michonne sailed for Tangier Sound, which is in the Chesapeake Bay, but I always took Oceanside to be on the Atlantic coast, so they'd actually have to sail around the tip of the Eastern Shore peninsula to get there -- like the old expression, going around their elbow to get to their thumb. Following actual geography, it would be a much shorter distance to go west over land.

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2 hours ago, LadyMustang65 said:

Can someone please refresh my memory?  Where did Aaron's kid come from?  I do not remember when or where he picked her up at all.

IIRC, Rick found her when he was at the Sanctuary just before Daryl killed Morales. Aaron, who was all freaked out over the death of his boyfriend asked Rick if he could have her, and Rick said "Okay", and passed her over, understandable since I doubt Rick wanted to raise yet another child not his. I'm sure I'm forgetting some details.

2 hours ago, alrightythen said:

As I watched Michonne's touching goodbye to Judith, I almost forgot she had another kid at home.   Did she even mention him? 

I don't remember her, or anyone else, mentioning him. The thought of Rick still makes Michonne tear up, but of her own child? I heard nothing.

2 hours ago, alrightythen said:

I've seen Samantha Morton in other roles and liked her, but on here, she just overdoes it, IMO.  This show sure does like keeping the villains around.  Doctors are another matter.

I've never seen her before, but Alpha is the most ridiculous, silly cartoon villain ever, and I'm including the Garbage Pail Kids in that. Nothing about her and the gang makes one lick of sense in any way. She told Dante to infiltrate Alexandria, because "They won't turn you away." If she knew that, all of them should have gone there and begged to be taken in since even 10 years post-ZA they have been unable to find shelter of any kind, anywhere. So, we have a group of people who prefer to live like cavemen, with no shelter and no reliable food source. They spend their time instead looking for ways to be super-duper evil, letting Alpha kill babies, other group members and physically punish people who might have an opinion. She makes me long for more Negan.

And this running through the woods at night: No way would they not get completely lost. They can't see what they're walking into. Do they never learn anything?

14 minutes ago, valandsend said:

And later, Michonne sailed for Tangier Sound, which is in the Chesapeake Bay

How was that boat and sails all so pristine and new-looking?

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2 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I don't know what kind of TVs those dark scenes are made for but from what I can gather few people have them. I have friends with a very expensive 60" HD TV and they complain about the too-dark scenes as much as anyone else. Is there a special kind of HDTV that makes scenes like this watchable? Otherwise, I have to turn the brightness level up as high as it will go on the TV in order to be able to make out what's going on. 

What's really baffling is that there are enough behind-the-scenes stuff to determine those scenes aren't even dark when they shoot them. They are made artificially dark in post-production. That's probably where the problem is. Whatever equipment they're using to adjust the darkness doesn't look the same on most televisions sets, even the higher end HD ones.

HDR is what's important with these 4k tvs. What ever TV you have, google it for settings. There are lots of people who spend countless hours trying to squeeze the best performance out of their displays. 

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I have to agree with those who can't stand Judith.  I'm sure the little girl who plays her is a lovely child, but she's too 'professional child actor' for my taste.  I keep waiting for her to throw her arms around Dog, call him Sandy and break into '(The Sun Will Come Out) Tommorow'.   One of the things I liked about Chandler was that he never appeared to be acting, he was BEING a REAL child, annoying at times but that's because kids are annoying at times.  I find it hard to believe that the charming little girl who played Judith for a couple of years grew into the horror show that is Miss Judith.  But when your parents are Shane and Lori, the odds are against you.

I have no idea why Judith has to accompany Michonne EVERYWHERE.  There has to be a school or daycare or SOMEWHERE ELSE she could be.

I don't know why they bothered to have Michonne have a baby since he's a complete afterthought, even to his own mother.   I couldn't believe that Michonne got choked up just mentioning St. Rick of Grimes.  She got over the death of her first child, but she can't get over RICK?  Jesus.  She didn't even tell Judith to say good-bye to RJ.

The only possible reason I can come up with to explain why Michonne would leave her community, friends and her CHILDREN and get on a boat with a man she just met is that she was desperate to get away from Judith.  And I can't blame her for that.

I actually liked Dante and I thought the actor was quite good.  But the Whisperers DO NOT WORK.  Why would a bunch of people go around from community to community for the sole purpose of destroying them so they can go BACK to the woods, eat bugs, sleep on the ground and wear dead people's faces?  One second on a comfy bed with clean sheets and real food should have turned Dante against Alpha.  She's not compelling; she's annoying and CRAZY. 

Speaking of crazy, I can understand why Carol ran after Alpha.  They're opposite sides of the same coin.  But why the other, relatively sane people ran after those two lunatics is beyond me.  They DESERVE to fall into a pit.  I wonder how many more likeable characters are going to die thanks to Carol's fuckery.

Edited by mightysparrow
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4 hours ago, AngelaHunter said:

And this running through the woods at night: No way would they not get completely lost. They can't see what they're walking into. Do they never learn anything?

They even did it in a snow storm while being attacked by frozen walkers.👌😄

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48 minutes ago, mightysparrow said:

I have no idea why Judith has to accompany Michonne EVERYWHERE.  There has to be a school or daycare or SOMEWHERE ELSE she could be.

No need to learn anything when you live in the flintstones era,  just practice with a wooden stick and youre all covered.

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1 hour ago, mightysparrow said:

I have to agree with those who can't stand Judith.  I'm sure the little girl who plays her is a lovely child, but she's too 'professional child actor' for my taste... >One of the things I liked about Chandler was that he never appeared to be acting, he was BEING a REAL child, annoying at times but that's because kids are annoying at times.

YES. Coral seemed like a real boy, especially when he was little - disobedient, sulky, a little inarticulate and stubborn. I know girls mature faster and moreso in this ZA world, but Judith is such a little Miss - way too glib and self-possessed for a young child and always sticking her nose into the adults' business, and worse, they all listen to her maybe because they think she's the heiress to the Legend of Grimes. Even when her mother is leaving and the kid has no idea when or if she'll ever be back, she just smiles and bids her adieu instead of doing what a real little girl would do, which is cry and kick up an awful fuss. And that goddam hat is at least 20 years old yet looks new.

I tried once to read the John Grisham book, "The Client". I got as far as the author having a 12-year-old, Huck Finn-type backwoods boy ask about the Susan Sarandon character, "Is she bitter?" and threw the book across the room, yelling, "No 12-year old boy is going to ask if some middle-aged woman (or anyone) is "bitter"!! Right or wrong, I get that throw-the-book feeling when Judith speaks. These writers...

25 minutes ago, heisenberg said:

They even did it in a snow storm while being attacked by frozen walkers.

Not even Daniel Boone would set off in a snow storm, or take off through the woods in the dead of night. Even he would get lost. I got momentarily lost one night in my frickin' backyard and tripped over branches constantly.

1 hour ago, mightysparrow said:

She didn't even tell Judith to say good-bye to RJ.

Out is sight, out of mind? I'm starting to think that child was a figment of our imaginations.

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Normally I like Carol, but she was bugging tonight. If she wants to die chasing Alpha that’s on her I guess, but maybe don’t lead everyone else into this incredibly obvious trap?!? Oh my god, that trap was so obvious, it might as well have been a box with a stick holding it up over a Walker mask! I don’t who was making worse choices Carol “Give chase and run into obvious trap” Peletier, or Aaron “Sure this Whisper Girl seems legit” Last Name Unknown! 

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1 hour ago, AngelaHunter said:

YES. Coral seemed like a real boy, especially when he was little - disobedient, sulky, a little inarticulate and stubborn. I know girls mature faster and moreso in this ZA world, but Judith is such a little Miss - way too glib and self-possessed for a young child and always sticking her nose into the adults' business, and worse, they all listen to her maybe because they think she's the heiress to the Legend of Grimes. Even when her mother is leaving and the kid has no idea when or if she'll ever be back, she just smiles and bids her adieu instead of doing what a real little girl would do, which is cry and kick up an awful fuss. And that goddam hat is at least 20 years old yet looks new.

I tried once to read the John Grisham book, "The Client". I got as far as the author having a 12-year-old, Huck Finn-type backwoods boy ask about the Susan Sarandon character, "Is she bitter?" and threw the book across the room, yelling, "No 12-year old boy is going to ask if some middle-aged woman (or anyone) is "bitter"!! Right or wrong, I get that throw-the-book feeling when Judith speaks. These writers...

Young Coral annoyed me.  Judith annoys me.  BUT, I must take issue with the notion that a child cannot be self-possessed, or that a 12 year old is incapable of asking an adult if they are bitter.  Some of us were born mature, or became so at a very early age through circumstances far less devastating than a zombie apocalypse.  I am the poster child for being enmeshed in adult affairs and grown up problems from my earliest childhood memories, and that's all I'm willing to divulge in an open forum about that.  Perhaps I was annoyingly precocious, too, although the grownups never treated me as a child, much less an annoying one.  Suffice to say I'm like Benjamin Buttons, and am emotionally maturing backwards.  ;~)

Kids raised in constant fear and danger "mature" far differently than those exposed to generic childhood simplicities. As do those with a voracious appetite for reading who are mainly exposed to damaged adults. [/projection]

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I've said it before, and I must say it again: Alpha's mannerisms annoy the living fuck out of me. It's like she's playing some animated slithering cartoon character.

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15 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Because like any addiction you need someone else to pull the plug for you.

I have no problem dumping shows.  I stopped watching NCIS after season ten as well as many other shows.

14 hours ago, walnutqueen said:

That is not true for addiction or for anyone's enjoyment of a show you happen to dislike.

I agree with you.  People don't universally like the same things or react to things in the same way.

13 hours ago, LadyMustang65 said:

I feel really sorry for Carol.  When you think of what's she been through, it's amazing she can still function.  She started off as an abused wife who was unable to protect her daughter.  She transformed herself into a hard, cold, kick-ass fighter who "put down" a child who was a danger to them all.  Then she allows herself to fall in love and adopt another child, and once again she is unable to protect that child.  Honestly, she should be a stark-raving lunatic by now.  I don't think they've necessarily done a great job at writing that, but gosh my heart goes out to her.  It's like the world is conspiring to make sure she can never have any peace.

I would feel sorry for Carol if her actions didn't cost innocent people their lives.    I would feel sorry for Daryl if he wasn't Carol's enabler, and if his actions didn't cost innocent people their lives.  If Daryl didn't enable Carol, she would have either died or made changes in her life long ago.  I think Daryl would be far better off without her as well.

That library was completely full of books.  I am surprised that they didn't look for a book called Surviving a ZA for Dummies.

They should have stripped that library of all of its books.   I am sure those books contain a lot of knowledge that they just don't have.

The writers blew an opportunity  with Luke in the library.  Given how often people die, they should have had him look for funeral march music. 

If it were truly possible to annoy someone to death, Judith and Eugene would be huge weapons.

Edited by icemiser69
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13 hours ago, LadyMustang65 said:

Yes.  They all ended up falling down the rabbit hole to discover that the herd is being kept in some underground cavern.  At least "our heroes" are up on the ledge instead of down in the pit with the walkers.  But I am anxious because it seems like the deaf girl who is friends with Daryl and Jerry are both in that hole.  I don't want to lose either of them.

I do wonder what happens if there is a heavy rain.  Perhaps they would get swept off of that ledge into the herd of walkers.

13 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I don't know what kind of TVs those dark scenes are made for but from what I can gather few people have them. I have friends with a very expensive 60" HD TV and they complain about the too-dark scenes as much as anyone else. Is there a special kind of HDTV that makes scenes like this watchable? Otherwise, I have to turn the brightness level up as high as it will go on the TV in order to be able to make out what's going on. 

It isn't only a television issue. IMO it does depend on what television it is being watched on.   My bedroom television is lousy when it comes to dark scenes.  It is also old.  My living room television is newer and better when it comes to night scenes.   The other problem is aging eyes and night vision not being as good as it used to be.

11 hours ago, pezgirl7 said:

The cave thing was so ridiculous. They're running through the forest, and then all of a sudden there's a cave, and they just run right inside and then all fall down a giant hole? *insert eye roll*

If they were in Jellystone Park, I would have expected them to run into Yogi and Boo-Boo.  They live in a cave.

Yeah, I am a huge Hanna-Barbera fan.  So many awesome cartoons.

Edited by icemiser69
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People bitched plenty about Carl and his refusing to stay in the house in the early seasons too.  Remember that Dale died because Carl was teasing a walker in the nearby swamp and it broke free to lumber back in the direction of the farm.  It's easy to forget that all these seasons later in the same way it's easy to forget all the stupid and annoying shit your own kids did when they were younger because you've had plenty of time to know them and the people they became since then.  The way the show martyred Carl in the end to show Rick a "better way" to all live in peace with the psycho who bludgeoned your friends to death before we were supposed to forget about that so he could be redeemed also doesn't hurt.

20 hours ago, Lady Iris said:

Hah, ya know, I completely forgot that she's Lori's kid. I just look and remember its Shane's kid that Michonne is raising now

Funnily enough I sometimes forget that she's also Shane's kid.  When you think about the fact that she's the biological product of Shane and Lori, her strange affinity for Negan, who validated her and took her every childish utterance seriously in a way that we've already discussed bordered at times almost on grooming, doesn't seem so odd.

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6 hours ago, wrlord said:

I've said it before, and I must say it again: Alpha's mannerisms annoy the living fuck out of me. It's like she's playing some animated slithering cartoon character.

Agreed but it's why I think she makes such a good villain.  It's kind of a common theme on this show, the bad guys are all creepy / annoying, sometimes close to cartoon-like in their menacing ways, except they always retain the creep factor enough to be actually pretty scary if you think about meeting them in real life.  The Governor, Gareth (Terminus), Negan, now Alpha.

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There is no thread about it so I will discuss it here. It is also the winter finale, might as well.

I can not comprehend the ideology behind the Whisperer. Why are all those people following Alpha and her miserable way of life? What is the upside of following her? They camp in the open every night, exposed to the elements, they risk getting eaten by the Guardian almost all the time, and they just roam in the wild. How do they eat? How do they keep personal hygiene? Then not mention that Alpha and Beta are ruthless and ready to kill their followers on a whim. 

With Negan at least, he gave the Saviors relative comfort and prosperity. He was no less ruthless but his followers enjoyed good food and good, protected shelter. Same as the Governor and the cannibals.

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11 minutes ago, TV Anonymous said:

There is no thread about it so I will discuss it here. It is also the winter finale, might as well.

I can not comprehend the ideology behind the Whisperer. Why are all those people following Alpha and her miserable way of life? What is the upside of following her? They camp in the open every night, exposed to the elements, they risk getting eaten by the Guardian almost all the time, and they just roam in the wild. How do they eat? How do they keep personal hygiene? Then not mention that Alpha and Beta are ruthless and ready to kill their followers on a whim. 

With Negan at least, he gave the Saviors relative comfort and prosperity. He was no less ruthless but his followers enjoyed good food and good, protected shelter. Same as the Governor and the cannibals.

I guess it depends on what the alternatives were.  I'm supposing that being on your own in the ZA is not a good place to be, plus I think people are inherently social, beings, they look to join with others, so if you're out there alone or maybe with one or two others, and you're running out of ideas on how to stay alive when you meet Alpha and her crew, maybe it seems like a better alternative than continuing to go it alone. 

You start out thinking it will be temporary but then you get familiar with it, even if you aren't that comfortable, at least you're alive.  And you're afraid of her, afraid that you won't be able to get away clean.

I think people will put up with a lot of crap rather than face the unknown.  It might be hell but I know what to expect, that sort of thing.

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nodorothyparker

Mod Note:  This thread is for discussion of the episode only.  If you didn't see it happen onscreen, discussion of it does not belong here and your post WILL be removed.  DO NOT DISCUSS CASTING NEWS, including reported cast comings and goings.   We have separate threads for discussing spoilers or the comics.  

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