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S01.E06: I'll Be Judge, I'll Be Jury

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A disturbing death has Gotham reeling and the city reaches out for their new vigilante hero. Luke confides in Kate, while Sophie asks Jacob for a special assignment. Alice continues her nefarious plot against the Kanes, with Catherine being a conduit to part of her plan. Batwoman pays another visit to Mary.

Scott Peters directed the episode written by James Stoteraux and Chad Fiveash.

Airdate 11/10/2019

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Maddow’s voiceovers are so much fun and she’s clearly having a ball. 

More Sophie and Mary interaction! I really hope they end up genuine friends. 

Lucius Fox was murdered?? NOT OK. I’m now resigned to learning that Gordon is also dead. At least I can assume Alfred is safe with Bruce. 

Mouse is one creepy bastard. I’m thinking he’s supposed to be a version of Jane Doe who is also creepy as fuck. Maybe he’ll be the season 1 Big Bad given his jealousy about Kate and Alice’s lingering attachment to her. 

“The law will take care of it” I love it when characters express faith in the Gotham legal system. It’s so cute. 

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Man FUCK OFF MOUSE! YOU are a HUGE Reason Beth/Alice was separated and kept from her family!! Cause you didnt want her to go. KATE AND JACOB are her Family not you! They were destroyed by her "death" and loved her so much. Sorry but its sickening seeing that POS act like they never loved her hes just as guilty as his POS Father. Hope Mouse has a painful death in his future. Sorry fellow posters but he was triggering me watching this episode if he cared about Beth/Alice at all he wouldve helped her get back to her dad and Sister

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Batman would have brought a gas mask if he knew he was dealing with poison gas. That is how you become a superhero without superpowers.

It would be nice if the writers were at least able to simulate competence in their heroes. I guess you can't really imagine things you don't understand.

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Ok....so....I ended up not loving the episode because there were a lot of things that ended up bugging me. Just some examples include Batwoman standing in front of the door as the truck came barreling through, and the district attorney deciding that he'd run straight toward the fence instead of running to the side to get away from the water. 

Why do characters, especially the heroes, have to make stupid choices? 

There were some nice character moments. Mary and Sophie have some excellent scenes together. Jacob and Kate had some nice moments. Alice's love for her family is great. She has the perfect balance of Alice and Beth. She cares for her family because she's still Beth, and it's clear that she would at least protect Kate to the very end (Jacob's a different story) but she's also a changed woman who had a difficult 15 years because of it. 

I don't know how much she cares for Mouse. I think a big part of her is using him, but I also think that she cares enough about him to protect him right now. She obviously has a bond with him, but it's probably not that deep.

The Luke Fox family stuff is getting me interested in Luke, so at least there's that. I've finally felt like I could grow to like him. 

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I did chuckle at Kate's crack about waiting on Luke to play some hold music.  

But Mouse...dude...sure you gave Beth/Alice food at night.  You also played mimic at your dad's request when Jacob was at the house searching for her.  You can tone down the speeches about family. 

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1. So, you can see someone electrifying the water that is rushing towards you. Do you a) decide to turn to the side so you can run AWAY from the approaching water, or b) head straight to a metal fence? 

2. That said, I am delighted to see that this show is already following in the Arrow tradition of killing off district attorneys.

3. After seasons of "no, we can't use/mention Character X" on four different shows, I'm kinda cackling at the casual use of "Joker," "Jack Napier," and "Cobblepot" here.  (Also, wait, the Penguin became the Mayor? No wonder people have a few issues with the Bats.)

4. Not cackling at the death of Lucius Fox. Sniffle.

5. Rachel Maddow is just loving this, isn't she? 

6. Mary remains the best character on this show.

7. Surely the facial recognition program at Hamilton should have had facial recognition and retina scans? How did Mouse pass the retina scans since the only thing the mask changed was his face?

8. Then again this is the same show that apparently thinks that hydrogen is still flammable even when bound to another agent, which raises all kinds of questions about water, but, moving on.

9. I do like that Batwoman is already looking at questions of police/legal corruption, since that explains why the city would even need vigilantes. It did seem slightly off to have the wealthy white woman distrust the district attorney and the black guy who ended up not getting to go to MIT because his father was murdered and who spent the earlier episodes of the show urging Kate to be a vigilante yell YAY District Attorney, but that's the disadvantages of a limited cast - and at least Batwoman made some attempt to justify it.

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I think the criminal element needs better P.R. A guy in full-on executioner gear killing the corrupt? That's good (so to speak). But a murderer is nicknamed "Chris the Fist"? The hell?

Good episode, though I'm clearly not paying rapt attention.

3 hours ago, quarks said:

  (Also, wait, the Penguin became the Mayor? No wonder people have a few issues with the Bats.)

I missed that. And now I want a Robin Lord Taylor-like Penguin. Just someone that is funny, neurotic and murderous at the same damn time. "Batwoman? Sure, why not? I mean, Batman was a huge success, right? This is like a sequel for a movie that stood well enough on its own!!!" Or would that be too meta?

So Luke's dad was killed? I thought it was a significant other, and that Luke was gay. I swear, it doesn't matter for me . . . but then I wonder if Lucius hooked up with another woman, and that's how we got Curtis over in Arrow.

Alice and Mary continue to carry the series. I like Kate, though . .  while she's still learning the ropes, she's probably a lot snarkier than her cousin ever was.

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They sure were all about the references tonight, with them name-dropping "Mayor" Cobblepot and Jack Napier/Joker!  Now, any of these big names actually showing up here would be a different story, of course. I do think they would probably have loved to have had a version of Harley Quinn here, but I don't see what happening since the Margot Robbie version actually seems to be a success for the film universe.

Episode was fine overall, but I did think it reverted back to some of its earlier issues, like weird decision-making and dumb moments.  The lawyer in the opening act really seemed to have plenty of other options then just run in a straight line away from the electric puddle.  And Kate just standing around, almost waiting for the truck to smack her.  Granted, Kate kind of seemed off her game in general, because the Executioner of all people pretty much had the upper hand until Jacob popped him.  Shake it off, Kate!

Lucius Fox got murdered?  Well, shit!  And since the apparent killer was during the massive cover-up, I wonder if the actual killer is going to be someone else.  Oh, Luke!

Mary and Sophie are actually a pretty interesting pair.  Granted, I would probably say that with any pair involving Mary (an actual face-off between her and Alice would delight me so much!)

Alice/Mouse were as nuts as I figured they would be.  I'm guessing the point will come when Alice has to pick between him and Kate, and she'll "surprise" everyone by protecting Kate.  Of course, since it's Alice, she'll probably still do so in a violent, murderous way...

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3 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Alice/Mouse were as nuts as I figured they would be.  I'm guessing the point will come when Alice has to pick between him and Kate, and she'll "surprise" everyone by protecting Kate.  Of course, since it's Alice, she'll probably still do so in a violent, murderous way...

I felt that this episode was just all about setting it up so that Alice has to choose between Mouse and Kate.

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16 hours ago, appositival said:

It would be nice if the writers were at least able to simulate competence in their heroes. I guess you can't really imagine things you don't understand.

Should she be that competent so soon after first donning the cowl and cape?  The writers are showing her evolution into superheroism.

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Rachel Maddow is just having the time of her life with this voice over role! 

Not a bad episode, and it explored a common theme of the Bat-verse, that the justice system is full of deeply corrupt people in Gotham and that it needs vigilantes to keep some kind of order, and explains why they often need them, no matter how much it pisses Jacob off. Unfortunately it had some of the awkwardness of the first few episodes, with characters doing long winded speeches and jumping to quick conclusions, and characters making pretty crappy and stupid decisions. 

I liked seeing more of Mary and Sophie, I am looking forward to them possibly becoming actually friends, especially when Mary inevitably gets brought into the fold. I mean, I get why Kate doesent want to tell Mary that she is Batwoman right now, but I hope they dont drag the reveal out for too long. Mary is my favorite character and I want to see her join the team! 

Lucius Fox is dead?!? NOOOO, DO NOT WANT!! I was hoping he was sipping a margarita and enjoying a happy retirement on a beach somewhere! No way was the person who killed him just some random jerk, this smells like an evil plot. 

Dang, this show is dropping names everywhere! Cogglepot, Joker, the whole gang is here! Well, off-screen somewhere, but maybe we will get to see them later? Maybe saving them for Crisis? 

Alice and Mouse are sure a creepy crazy duo, and it seems like this season will end with Alice having to choose between Mouse and Kate. You know, I felt bad for kid Mouse, and its clear that was was scared of his twisted dad and desperately lonely, but he really shouldn't be lecturing Alice/Beth on how HE is her family and Jacob and Kate never cared about her. They looked everywhere for her and her loss clearly broke their family into pieces, and he let her be held prisoner for presumably years by his evil father, he is hardly the perfect brother.

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Ehh, an OK episode perhaps, but just that. "You know how many rich white guys I've executed?". Oh, OK, how bout rich yellow-guys, rich blacks, rich redskins (if you want to point out skin colour) or are they non-existent in your world? That's racist and elitist fixing only on one race.

Liked the nod to Gotham series or was Oswald really a mayor of Gotham in one point in the comics?

Edited by Rushmoras

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12 hours ago, sugarbaker design said:

Should she be that competent so soon after first donning the cowl and cape?  The writers are showing her evolution into superheroism.

Kate spent "x" years training herself in every form of combat to join the Crows. If Kate wearing the Bat Suit can not beat some old guy who spent his entire life pushing a button to kill people, then her father was right not to put her in the Crows, because she would be dead the first day. You would think that Kate would have mad combat skills, but I am not seeing them.

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"Can you play some hold music while I wait?" The show manages to balance humor and drama. The security gaurd hitting on Batwoman was another lol-moment.

I can't speak for the Lawyer but if an electric pole crashed into my car and some dude with a mask showed up in the darkness, I would have started running long before I saw the axe. Heck, I think the pole landing on my car would have been the first clue since I live in GOTHAM!


"If you trust the law so much, why are you wearing that suit?"
"I'm going to need backup."
"What do you want me to say to that? He makes a good point."

😂😂😂😂😂😂

As irritating as Gotham's Gatfly(?) is, I surprised myself at how much I was looking forward to hearing it. When the episode was halfway through and there hadn't yet been one of those annoying soundbites, I felt oddly bereft. 😄

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ETA: The murder of Lucius Fox (who else didn't know he was dead/killed? 😲😭I thought he was just retired) is looking to be another season-long story.

On 11/10/2019 at 8:28 PM, quarks said:

the black guy who ended up not getting to go to MIT because his father was murdered

He went to MIT. 

Edited by Katsullivan
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1 hour ago, Katsullivan said:

ETA: The murder of Lucius Fox (who else didn't know he was dead/killed? 😲😭I thought he was just retired) is looking to be another season-long story.

He went to MIT. 

No, he didn't.

This was spelled out in the script, in the later scene when Kate and Luke were trying to figure out how to deal with the poison gas. Kate said "You said you went to MIT!" and Luke said, "I said I was accepted by MIT."  He didn't end up going. 

Edited by quarks
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A few things that bother me.

The whole world and half knows that Kate is Batwoman.

Alice/Beth and her loyalty to Mouse.  Mouse is a BIG reason she was trapped in that house.

With all her training, Kate is a shitty superhero. She really isn't getting much right.

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17 minutes ago, greekmom said:

The whole world and half knows that Kate is Batwoman.

What do you mean? Far as I know only Luke, Alice, and Mouse know. Sophie suspects Kate is Batwoman. And I guess you can add Kara from the crossover (I can’t remember if Barry and Oliver figured it out).

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3 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

"Can you play some hold music while I wait?" The show manages to balance humor and drama. The security gaurd hitting on Batwoman was another lol-moment.

When was this line about the hold music uttered? I totally missed it.

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"So we have to find out who this masked murderer is who dresses like an old time executioner, executes people, and calls himself the executioner!" "Wait I think I found the guy! He is...an executioner. That...lines up."

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5 hours ago, Rahul said:

When was this line about the hold music uttered? I totally missed it.

It was when Luke was trying to figure out if the hydrogen peroxide on the table was booby-trapped. The whole scene from her "What's the Bat protocol on this?" was LOL-worthy.

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Alice continues to be one of the most interesting villains in the CW/DC shows; and with the addition of Mouse as her pseudo-brother, it adds another dynamic to the already weird-but-entertaining extended family of Kate. Kate was better in this one but I still think she's the weakest link.

I did appreciate the humor in this episode though! I laughed at Alice forcing her hostage to play checkers and then getting mad at him winning! And I took the Mayor Cobblepot mention as a nod to the Batman Returns film, but I guess it could apply to Gotham too.

I prefer Mary stay out of the loop a little longer, because it's funnier, but also because I'm thinking that she wouldn't want to keep the Secret from her parents, and there's already enough tension.

They're fleshing out Luke bit by bit, but I still need to see him doing stuff outside the Batcave. Well, I don't like Lucius Fox being murdered offscreen in a mugging(?). I'm not sure if I want his death to be more complicated than that, but I wish he wasn't dead at all.

Sophie: keeper of secrets, now. She knows about Mary's clinic, and Batwoman's identity, plus her own secrets about her relationships with Kate and WhateverHerHusband'sNameIs. Gotta say, even though I'm not invested in Kate/Sophie, they are not doing Sophie any favors by making her out to be the 'bad guy' because of the incident at the military academy  - and not getting much of anything from her side of the story even six episodes in.

These shows are always ridiculous, but the one thing that I couldn't go along with was the courtroom gas chamber sequence; which was dumb even with my very basic knowledge of gases and lungs. And how did they get out that room again?

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On 11/13/2019 at 5:10 AM, Trini said:

Alice continues to be one of the most interesting villains in the CW/DC shows; and with the addition of Mouse as her pseudo-brother, it adds another dynamic to the already weird-but-entertaining extended family of Kate. Kate was better in this one but I still think she's the weakest link.

I did appreciate the humor in this episode though! I laughed at Alice forcing her hostage to play checkers and then getting mad at him winning! And I took the Mayor Cobblepot mention as a nod to the Batman Returns film, but I guess it could apply to Gotham too.

I prefer Mary stay out of the loop a little longer, because it's funnier, but also because I'm thinking that she wouldn't want to keep the Secret from her parents, and there's already enough tension.

They're fleshing out Luke bit by bit, but I still need to see him doing stuff outside the Batcave. Well, I don't like Lucius Fox being murdered offscreen in a mugging(?). I'm not sure if I want his death to be more complicated than that, but I wish he wasn't dead at all.

Sophie: keeper of secrets, now. She knows about Mary's clinic, and Batwoman's identity, plus her own secrets about her relationships with Kate and WhateverHerHusband'sNameIs. Gotta say, even though I'm not invested in Kate/Sophie, they are not doing Sophie any favors by making her out to be the 'bad guy' because of the incident at the military academy  - and not getting much of anything from her side of the story even six episodes in.

These shows are always ridiculous, but the one thing that I couldn't go along with was the courtroom gas chamber sequence; which was dumb even with my very basic knowledge of gases and lungs. And how did they get out that room again?

Remember, the Penguin was elected Mayor in the Adam West Batman series too, in possibly the finest ep?

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A little underwhelming although we see why the people of Gotham tend to embrace vigilantes. Nice reference to the Joker as Jack Napier (so this is a different reality to Gotham where it's Jerome Valeska) and Mayor Cobblepot. Totally fooled by Mouse's trick on Alice, that was clever, interesting dynamic between them, is Kate winning her back and who will win the battle for her soul? Lucius Fox is dead? Damn, maybe one of the reasons Bruce left Gotham?   

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Gotta love that comic book electricity - even when it's earthed it will still climb fences to kill you! Though that wasn't the only science fail (or to be charitable, use example of comic book science) in the episode. Hydrogen Cyanide might be explosive, it's also poisonous (it was used in the gas chambers at Auschwitz). By the time enough was present to blow your way out, you'd be dead, in the absence of a Bat Breath Mask.

Did love that little touch of Alice sticking the pin in the eye of the bust

Another dead parent? Is it actually possible to retain two parents in a comic book?

If the Crows only cover the rich part of town, why do they care that the GCPD call Batwoman? Doesn't it make them look worse if they only show up to stop Batwoman and not to stop regular criminals?

On ‎11‎/‎13‎/‎2019 at 5:10 AM, Trini said:

And how did they get out that room again?

I assume the explosion blew open one of the exits (which would probably be one of the more plausible things to happen, scientifically speaking). Fortuitously without injuring either Kate or her dad, who were miraculously not already dead from poisoning!

On ‎11‎/‎12‎/‎2019 at 6:52 AM, AnimeMania said:

Kate spent "x" years training herself in every form of combat to join the Crows. If Kate wearing the Bat Suit can not beat some old guy who spent his entire life pushing a button to kill people, then her father was right not to put her in the Crows

I actually liked that - the Executioner was about twice Kate's size. Sure, it's possible for a pint-sized power house to take down somebody much larger than them, but in a straight slugging match you'll always back the larger opponent.

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