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S01.E05: Mine Is a Long And a Sad Tale

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Alice takes Kate down the sad, winding road of her life in the days after the accident as Jacob and Sophie attempt to track them. Mary has an argument with Catherine which sends her looking for Kate at Wayne Tower, but instead she becomes unwelcome company for Luke.

Carl Seaton directed the episode written by Jerry Shandy and Ebony Gilbert.

Airdate 11/3/2019

batwoman-episode-105-mine-is-a-long-and-

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We're gonna be getting Luke and Mary, and honestly, I'm for it.  They had good chemistry, and I like both characters.

Yeah, Beth, anybody would go nuts being held captive by that family.  Not everybody would stab their father, but whatever works for you.

Batwoman's GCPD is worse that the Springfield PD and season 1 of Gotham's PD, combined.

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The timeline of this show continues to baffle me. Now they're claiming the girls were thirteen when Alice "died." They seem younger to me in the flashbacks.

Mary continues to grow on me. She could be such an annoying character, but the actress is doing such a great job. I kind of ship her with Luke now. I can't wait for her to get in on the Bat-Shenanigans. 

The young Beth actress did a really good job with stuff.

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I mean I dont know. Im finding myself not really having sympathy for Beth/Alice. She literally couldve called that piece of shits bluff and let her Kate know she was there instead of doing what he wanted. But it's all Kate and her Dads fault and she calls the boy who helped keep her captive "Brother" while Kate has been miserable. Fuck her and her hypocritical ass self. Also Kate's Stepmother is a real bitch

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Nicole Kang continues to do an A+++ job as Mary. Even her drunk acting is great. I could really get behind a Mary-Luke hook-up, and it solves the problem of having a relationship on the show but keeping the lead single.

I also really like Rachel Skarsten's playing of Alice.  As well the the amusing way of being crazy,  Also, it's sweet that she's stealing skin for Mouse.

Jacob Kane continues to disappoint. As does Kate/Sophie which I blame mostly on the writing. If they're planning to have Kate end up with Sophie, they've lost me.

Stop talking to Bruce, Kate. Or at least show me that they knew each other that well that she would see him as a confidante.

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 I can't blame a traumatized kid for believing the psycho who kidnapped her would kill her sister and father.  Her mind was obviously warped by those two for years so I get her blaming her family.   

 Is Mouse supposed to be a canon character?  I was thinking False Face, but I think he was a villain created just for the 60s series.

 So Elseworlds was last week as of this episode.   How are they going to cover a year between now and Crisis?

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There was something about the directing about the episode that I both hated and liked.  

Hated: It seemed that Mary and Catherine's scene in the beginning was obviously dubbed over as it seemed that the voices didn't match with the mouths.  And when Jacob was punching the guy in front of the diner, I was thinking "You know if we're going to use all of Arrow's old sets, it wouldn't hurt to steal one of their stunt coordinators for a bit."

And with all that, I admit, I jumped when Beth's captor snatched the phone from her when she was trying to contact Jacob. 

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51 minutes ago, Josh371982 said:

I mean I dont know. Im finding myself not really having sympathy for Beth/Alice. 

Since episode one Alice has casually murdered several people.  Zero sympathy here.

29 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Stop talking to Bruce, Kate. 

I thought these were diary entries written as letters much like Celie's Dear God or Anne Frank's Dear Kitty.

Edited by sugarbaker design
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29 minutes ago, Maverick said:

 I can't blame a traumatized kid for believing the psycho who kidnapped her would kill her sister and father.  Her mind was obviously warped by those two for years so I get her blaming her family.   

 Is Mouse supposed to be a canon character?  I was thinking False Face, but I think he was a villain created just for the 60s series.

 So Elseworlds was last week as of this episode.   How are they going to cover a year between now and Crisis?

Eeh fuck her. She couldve called out for her sister. Its fucked up she calls a man "brother" when he helped keep her there. While Kate and her Dad were miserable without her and had a horrid woman in their life who lied like she did. And she couldve ran out the damn door . She acts like they didnt love her when they did. Kate blaming herself was some Oliver Queen type shit at the end too. 

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Yeah, Alice is a murderer, but her story made me want to give her a lot of pancakes and hugs.

For God sake, Kate, it wasn't your fault Alice was in that crazy man's house for so long.  You aren't telepathic.   Though I am wondering if Mouse is.

Awww, Daddy Kane had a bad day today.  He's getting divorced and he got all stabbed.  He got better after sundown, though.

Anyone else besides me wanted to see Mary shotgun the pizza a la Liz Lemon?  Seriously, you have all the martinis and generic looking TV pizza you want, Mary.  Anything to take away the pain.

Sophie.  How nice to see you.  Still haven't been run over multiple times with garbage truck, I see. 

Spoiler

Dammit, where's the Joker or Harley Quinn when you need them!?  To hell with the movies!  We need some Joker justice on Sophie here!

Is it just me or is Dodgson's actor rather atrocious at acting?  Just me?

Edited by bmoore4026
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I think this show is slowly but definitely improving. Even if we didn't get to hear Rachel Maddow chatter about the Bats this week.

1. Mary remains great. "I DIDN'T KILL ANYONE!"

2. The sets remain abysmal. Let's try to focus on something more cheerful.

3. Like the not exactly subtle but still kinda cool use of the camera lens to make that house/attic/doors look slightly bent and twisted. Nice.

4. Or Rachel Skarsten, who nailed it this episode.  To the point where I almost forgot that she's murdered a rather large number of people until she reminded me by stabbing her own father. 

5. As did Elizabeth Anweis in her brief scene. At least Catherine had the guts/minimal ethics to tell Mary personally instead of letting her daughter find out from Kate or Jacob.

6. I'm still not sold on Luke Fox, but he seemed less annoying this episode - and his scenes with Mary were cute.

7. Really liking the dynamic growing between the three sisters - especially now that Alice/Beth and Kate are completely in the know, and Mary is mostly in the know.

8. Cracked up at the reveal that the whole skin-removing thing started up right after the Arkham Asylum breakout - partly caused, if memory serves, by one Mr. Barry Allen.

Was not thinking that I would have to shout, Goddamnit, Barry! on this show until at least the crossover episodes. 

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"Wait . . . I didn't tell you about my stepsister, Luke? Well, I have a stepsister. And she's not the same ethnicity as me. I probably would have remembered to tell you a lot earlier, but there's this whole thing with my twin sister being insane and me stepping in for my absent cousin as the protector this sad city sorely needs. [pause] You didn't believe her, Luke?"

Once again, Alice manages to cart off the bulk of an episode., as we get her sad-as-hell origin story. Apparently, she was "taken in" by a weirdo and his disfigured son, and the Kanes never figured things out. They came so, so close . . . but television tropes, y'know?

Yes, Luke and Mary look really ship-able. How long until Mary stumble onto Kate's secret?

I missed that the Arkham Asylum breakout from "Elseworlds" happened recently. If we're blaing Barry yet again, doesn't Oliver deserve some of that as well?

Just realized . . . no Vesper this week. Unless I missed that part . . .

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Just piling on with the consensus here.. Mary awesome... Mary/Luke great... Alice carried the epi... Catherine and Mary's talk did seem off I paused and rewound thinking I was bugging... This felt to me like the First epi where ruby's limited acting skill was noticeable as she was with Rachel most of the show.. Coulda done without the kate/Sophie danger meetcute behind the shed... Looking fwd to nxt week 

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This was the first episode I really liked from start to finish. Maybe because Alice was the lead?

Mary and Luke are totally going to happen. 

Being held hostage by a crazy person doesn't explain becoming psycho yourself. 

Totally get why kid Beth wouldn't yell out she was there, kids believe scary adults that tell them they'll kill their family. But why wouldn't Kate be like, dad, there's a hidden door behind the shelves in the kitchen leading into a creepy basement.

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Well, no wonder Alice turned out the way she did.  She doesn't just get kidnapped, but she gets kidnapped by freaking Enzo from iZombie!  That would fuck with anyone!  In all seriousness, John Emmet Tracy was perfectly creepy in that role.

This was one of those episodes that I really enjoyed; might even be my favorite yet; but at the same time, it kind of highlighted some of my issues in that I just find Alice to be a way more interesting character to watch compared to Kate, and I definitely think Rachel Skarsten has more of a screen presence and charisma compared to Ruby Rose.  While I won't go as far as to say that I felt bad for Alice, because there were some other options Beth could have done to escape and it is unfair to blame Kate and even Jacob over what happened to her, but I just find myself more interested in seeing Alice's mindset and what makes her tick, compared to Kate.  Again, I don't think Ruby is flat-out awful, but throughout all of the Kate/Alice scenes, I just felt like Kate was tagging along and Ruby was getting outshone by Rachel from beginning to end.  I really do hope that Ruby ends up growing into the role and I certainly think there is a lot of other things that do work to make me keep watching this show, but they need to shake things up with Kate, I think.

Of course, what I'm hoping will happen soon is bringing Mary more into the fold!  I continue to love her and Nicole Kang's performance.  Her drunk acting was perfect in that I was laughing at the ways she was throwing Luke off, but I also really felt sorry for Mary.  She practically had her entire world turned upside down by finding out what her mom has really been up to, is wracked with guilt over how this is effecting Kate and Jacob, and then to top it all off, not only is Kate not around for her to talk with, but she knows she's with her "other sister" instead.  Yeah, that would do a number on anyone.  But I'm really, really hoping that her scenes with Luke is the beginning of her finding out the truth about Kate and joining the eventual Team Batwoman.  Either way, Mary's the best!

Credit where credit is due though, I do think Catherine is sincere over the pain she shown when she told Mary the truth.  Not sure what exactly is in store for her character long term, but I'm curious to find out.

For a second, I actually thought they might actually go through will killing Jacob.  Wouldn't be the first time a show "surprisingly" killed off one of the bigger names on short notice.

I know she was likely referring to the guys who didn't get set on fire during the explosion, but I still laughed at seeing all of the baddies on flames, and Sophie's screaming "Don't get up!" at them.  I think they're going to be down for a while, Sophie!

Hmm... I wonder if anyone else broke out of Arkham alongside Mouse?!

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1 hour ago, Lantern7 said:

I missed that the Arkham Asylum breakout from "Elseworlds" happened recently. If we're blaing Barry yet again, doesn't Oliver deserve some of that as well?

Oh, absolutely, but blaming Barry is more fun.

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This was my favorite episode so far. I loved everything. I think Rachel and Ruby play off each other really well.

I feel chemistry between Kate & Sophie. I figure the way Kate put her finger on Sophie's lips will make her believe even more that she's Batwoman.

I liked Alice's backstory about why she is this way so far.

I wonder if Mouse becomes Clayface.

I enjoyed Luke & Mary together. Loved Mary saying she suspects her mom killed the deer as well.

I like Jacob so far.

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So Beth didn't try to escape again?  And she doesn't blame Mouse either? Uh ok.

I wonder if she or Mouse killed Mouse's father.

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Can we call this show Alice instead. Since the beginning I was more interested in her story. Ruby Rose as Kate is just so bland that I don't really care what's happening with her. Sophie is also bland so if it's their love story I'm supposed to care about they failed to make that interesting to me too. I'd rather have Mary and Luke investigating Alice. 

Beth was 13 years old I can buy her believing a creepy man that had human faces in a sink when he said he would kill her family if she said anything. We only saw the first few days of her captivity. I'm going to guess she was she psychologically and emotionally abused by that man and developed Stockholm Syndrome. Adults can start to identify with their captors so it's probably easier for a child. She was probably kept isolated from other people except for him and Mouse. A few months of that can start to wear a person down to thinking that they can only depend on their captors. That man also probably poisoned her against her family just by saying how easily they gave up when they were right there. The only person to blame in all this is the man that held her captive. 

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This was maybe my favorite episode yet, possibly because it starred Alice, and her backstory was really creepy and interesting, in a very Gotham kind of way. Alice has crossed too many lines for me to feel too terribly sorry for her, but I do feel terrible for child Beth and I cant help but feel a little sad for her and how things turned out. Alice was clearly warped by this horrible experience, and I guess blaming her family is easier than coming to terms with what happened to her. She is a really good villain, and her connection with Kate is probably the most interesting thing in the show. I did also feel rather bad for Mouse, even if it was awful that he didnt help Beth escape. His dad was clearly an abusive psycho and he seemed convinced that his son could never have any kind of life outside of their house. I dont know what Batman character he might be, maybe a male version of Jane Doe? Or Clayface even, even if his backstory would be really different than the classic character.

Or maybe its the general sister connections, and the weird sister platonic love triangle between Mary/Kate/Alice. Alice is jealous that Kate "replaced" her with Mary, while Mary is always trying to connect with Kate, while Kate kind of holds her at arms reach, seemingly more interested in her murderous twin than being with her. Mary is still my favorite character, she really elevates every scene that she is in, and her drunk breakdown was both hilarious and sad. "Wait...do you think that she killed the deer too?!?" I also thought she had pretty solid chemistry with Luke, I could get into them as a couple. Plus that would bring Mary into the Bat fold, and really start building up the Bat Squad! 

Alice is really blaming the wrong people here, its not her fault that Jacob and Kate didnt magically sense her presence or that they thought she was gone. That being said, maybe tell your dad about the creepy basement with the creepy door Kate! 

Catherine might have done an awful thing, but I do give her credit for telling Mary the truth from her. Its hard to tell what is up with her, she seemed really genuine when she said she wanted to give Jacob and Kate closure, but who knows? 

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17 hours ago, statsgirl said:

Also, it's sweet that she's stealing skin for Mouse.

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

This was a great episode. No complaints for a change. 

I can pity Beth-the-kidnapped-and-psychologically-tortured-little-girl and hate Alice-the-psychopath-mass-murderer at the same time. Always confounds me that some people struggle with this. 

ETA: she calls Mouse brother because Stockholm Syndrome. Also, he's probably the one that killed or helped her kill Hannibal Lecter.

Edited by Katsullivan
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Probably, the best episode so far. Maybe it got something to do, because it had minimum of Batwoman (I know, strange, but there, the less Batwoman, the more Kate, the better, at least for me). I don't even have any complaints (since the father asked the real question - how did you know how Beth's voice sounds like). Still, don't like Kate and what's her name relationship, but even that was bare minimum, so everything's fine!

Of course, if I was nitpicky enough, I would call Alice on her bullshit regarding sisterly bonds. Kate is not a mindreader. However, she was leaning to the door where you were held captive. So, silence is totally on you, Alice. Sorry.

Plus, how did Kate got drugged in the dinner? Did I miss some scene were she poured sleeping pills in her drink? Or did Alice had barman henchmam there as well?

Edited by Rushmoras

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6 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

I'd rather have Mary and Luke investigating Alice. 

What would they do if they found her?

35 minutes ago, Rushmoras said:

Plus, how did Kate got drugged in the dinner? Did I miss some scene were she poured sleeping pills in her drink? Or did Alice had barman henchmam there as well?

Alice had barman henchman there

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3 hours ago, AnimeMania said:

What would they do if they found her?

Tell the Crows. It's not like Batwoman is doing with her. Plus they'd just be more interesting to watch. 

The barman was Mouse.

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I enjoyed this episode a lot.

Alice/Beth is my favorite character and I loved getting more of her backstory.

They FINALLY let Luke interact with someone who isn't Kate. I liked his dynamic with Mary. I want them to be friends. A couple weeks ago I joked that I needed Luke to get some air since he's always shown in the Batcave or in a Wayne Enterprises building. Mary is a social butterfly. She's the perfect friend for him. I wouldn't mind them becoming a couple but friendship comes first.

Reagan didn't come back and wasn't even mentioned.

No complaints from me.

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RE: the deer skull. Shouldn't the antlers have tipped someone off?

Kate, don't let your crazy sister set the agenda. She is apparently smarter than you and she plans ahead.

I'm assuming that Ruby is intentionally playing Kate as wooden and emotionally closed-off. That would fit the stoic/loner/warrior archetype.

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Alice is the type of character I loathe so no surprise I found the whole episode tedious. Anti heroes are still supposed to be interesting? Yawn. 
 

Mary is very much my favourite character and I hope she and her mom can continue to hate Alice.

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10 hours ago, AnimeMania said:

Alice had barman henchman there

Yeah, figured that as much, but then, all of the employees and guests were her henchmen? I have questions now on how she was able to drag out passed out Kate out of there. Maybe the next episode will be about the murder spree in a dinner 😀

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On 11/3/2019 at 11:09 PM, Samwise979 said:

This was the first episode I really liked from start to finish. Maybe because Alice was the lead?

Mary and Luke are totally going to happen. 

Being held hostage by a crazy person doesn't explain becoming psycho yourself. 

Totally get why kid Beth wouldn't yell out she was there, kids believe scary adults that tell them they'll kill their family. But why wouldn't Kate be like, dad, there's a hidden door behind the shelves in the kitchen leading into a creepy basement.

There's an interview with Rachel Skarsten where she said we will get more Backstory but yeah so far I'm mad she blames her Sister and Father yet a kid who helped keep her captive is now her" brother" and she had the opportunity to let Kate know she was there and said not a goddamm thing.

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Not much to add; we needed a Alice backstory episode and we got it.

Glad they let Luke out of the Batcave; he and Mary were fun together!

The relationship between Alice and Kate (and others) makes her one of the most interesting of the CW/DC regular villains.

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19 hours ago, memememe76 said:

Alice is the type of character I loathe so no surprise I found the whole episode tedious. Anti heroes are still supposed to be interesting? Yawn. 
 

Mary is very much my favourite character and I hope she and her mom can continue to hate Alice.

Do people consider Alice an anti-hero? I think she’s fun to watch but she seems like a straight up villain to me. I don’t expect anyone except Kate and Jacob to have sympathy for Alice because they still see her as Beth. But it seems like everyone else sees her as a crazy murderer. 

This episode was interesting, but I don’t care that much about the search for Beth because we know they didn’t find her. I want to see what happened over the years that turned nice Beth into crazy Alice. 

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On 11/4/2019 at 5:13 PM, appositival said:

I'm assuming that Ruby is intentionally playing Kate as wooden and emotionally closed-off. That would fit the stoic/loner/warrior archetype.

It would fit with what they did on Arrow.  In season 1 Oliver seemed wooden and didn't smile much, but on rewatch you realize that was a choice of the show, Oliver had massive PTSD issues and didn't know who he could really trust.  It was only after more interaction with Diggle, Felicity, Thea, Laurel, Tommy, and even Quentin,did he start to loosen up and smile some more.

So, I think this is a choice by the show, they haven't even tried to present Kate as perfect.  They've came out and said Kate has flaws, and one of them is big trust issues, which cost her a relationship with Reagan.

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Whatever the reason, I find Kate boring. And Ruby Rose acted this exact same way in her Orange is the New Black role, too. I don't think her being closed off needs to be this dull. I don't think it's the writing. It's either the directing or the actress not having other skills. Everyone else manages to be more interesting, so if they want a dull, flat affect hero, I just think it's a bad idea. You can be stoic, or damaged, or guarded, or repressed, without coming across empty.

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20 minutes ago, possibilities said:

Whatever the reason, I find Kate boring. And Ruby Rose acted this exact same way in her Orange is the New Black role, too. I don't think her being closed off needs to be this dull. I don't think it's the writing. It's either the directing or the actress not having other skills. Everyone else manages to be more interesting, so if they want a dull, flat affect hero, I just think it's a bad idea. You can be stoic, or damaged, or guarded, or repressed, without coming across empty.

That's how I see it too. I could go with the intentionally playing stoic if I didn't see Ruby Rose act the exact same way on Orange is the New Black. On Arrow S1 Stephen Amell was stoic and closed off but he still managed to have a personality when he interacted with other characters. Ruby Rose is bland all the time. 

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I missed Batwoman in this episode, but it was still a good one. Ruby Rose has grown leaps and bounds for me, since Elsewords. 

Loved the scene between Catherine and Mary, so heartbreaking. Mary is cool at times, but I dont love characters that wont stop talking. Funny how it turns out, its not Luke Fox who is like Curtis from Arrow but Mary, both of them just cant shut up for a minute. 

I understand Alice/Beth calling Mouse her brother, its a tragic story. They pretty much grew up like siblings, while she was being held captive. He was a child too, he had no real power, life couldnt have been easier for him too with a father like that. 

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I'm surprised by the fact that I actually like the change of pace they'e achieved by having a superhero who only dons the costume for special occasions. Batman usually patrols for crime as Batman, finds clues as Batman, and sits around analyzing those clues still as Batman. "Bruce Wayne" usually feels more like a costume he puts on when he has to. Kate will put on the suit and utilize the advantages of being anonymous, bulletproof, etc when such things seem necessary, but this is very clearly the story of Kate, not Batwoman. Well, OK, Kate and her sisters. Mostly her sisters. The best 80 per cent of the show is her sisters. With Luke getting about half of what's left. Including... kind of explaining this whole point already.

Edited by CletusMusashi
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Mary continues to be my favourite character, and I hope we can get her in on the secret regarding Batwoman soon, particularly since there's some juicy material to be mined from the fact Alice won't enjoy the stepsisters being more sisterly than the twins.

That was a devastating backstory for Alice/Beth though, and is especially harrowing with so many true crime stories out there of children (especially girls) that are held captive against their will in the houses of their kidnappers. And sadly, I can grasp her psychosis: you expect nothing from your captors, and therefore grasp any tiny bit of kindness you can eke from them (thus her considering Mouse to be her brother; this is the very essence of Stockholm Syndrome), while you feel that your family will always be there for you, and so feel profoundly disappointed when they fail you (another good example of this is Nebula's feelings towards Gamora in the GotG films: they were both victims of Thanos, but it's easy to project grievances onto those you think SHOULD be helping you).

As illogical as it was, Beth kept quiet out of love for her sister, and so felt betrayed when Kate couldn't/didn't save her. There's no doubt that evil father would have been telling her: "if your family loved you, they would have rescued you by now", and kids are helpless against that sort of psychological manipulation.

All that aside, she's an adult now and murdering people in cold blood. There's only so far a tragic backstory can excuse you, though I hope this story ends with Beth in a facility rather than prison.

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I had to skip through most of Beth's captivity; too sad and harrowing for me to actually watch. I Rachel Skarsten is doing a tremendous job; she's come a long way since she was Dinah in Birds of Prey. 

I too look forward to Mary finding out about Kate being Batwoman and joining the Team. She is a great character and the actress is quite good. 

I also look forward to Batwoman taking on a villain other than Alice. Surely there must be other criminals in town?

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1. A Batwoman ep with no Batwoman?

2. Don't blame Beth, she's a little girl, she's terrified and she suffers from Stockholm Syndrome, that's why she reaches out to Mouse, he's all she has. Great bit of acting when she confronts her father, love and hurt between them in equal measures.  

3. Everyone gets the fact that Charles (Chuck) Dodgson was Alice in Wonderland author Lewis Carroll's real name, right? 

4. Slightly disappointed it wasn't Jervis Tetch although maybe that's who Dodgson will become?

5. Storyline rather reminds me of a couple of eps of Gotham, the one with Jane the face ripper and the one with the kid and the serial killer mother.  

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its weird to think the girls were supposed to be 13 when we have seen 17 year old Kate (with Sophie at the Academy) - at least i think they were supposed to be 17 in those kissing scenes?

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Batman doesn't do goggles? Are you kidding me? He's not some fashion victim that cares if they don't "look cool" (and I'm sure he could get some discreet lenses rather than bulky goggles).

I love the way Alice was sitting handcuffed in the Diner - and the waiter just goes with it! Though given it was a set up, it makes sense that he'd say nothing (personally, I like the idea that a waiter in Gotham would just go, "Huh, that chick's in handcuffs. Hope that won't reduce my tip!"). But maybe Kate will learn that's why you shouldn't drink and Bat-person.

Isn't Mary the Paris Hilton of Gotham? But even if he doesn't follow the fashion pages, wouldn't the security guard not recognise the boss' daughter? At least we got the Mary/Luke pairing, which was hilarious.

On 11/4/2019 at 3:25 AM, quarks said:

Rachel Skarsten, who nailed it this episode.  To the point where I almost forgot that she's murdered a rather large number of people

But she didn't kill anyone this week! OK, she skinned a couple of corpses and stabbed her dad, but who wasn't done that?

On 11/4/2019 at 11:13 PM, appositival said:

RE: the deer skull. Shouldn't the antlers have tipped someone off?

They said "bone fragments", not a complete skull. Though you'd think the boss of a major conglomerate could get hold of some real (human) bone fragments.

On 4/27/2020 at 8:54 AM, Joe Hellandback said:

Slightly disappointed it wasn't Jervis Tetch although maybe that's who Dodgson will become?

That was my thought, too.

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