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S05.E11: Episode 11

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1 hour ago, Diane12251 said:

Helen did "come clean" to some people that she was the one who killed Scotty.  She told Vik -- and then later, she also told her parents (with Margaret yelling frantically at her to never say that again).  

I don't think "inherited trauma" has anything to do with someone dying their hair blond and somehow passing on to their descendants a propensity for lighter hair.  "Inherited trauma" has to do with traumatic events in people's lives like death, suicide, serious injury, and so on.  The fact that Joanie thought Alison had committed suicide had affected her life deeply, so that trauma had been passed on to her.  

I, too, liked the ending with Noah alone on the bluff.  All in all, I liked the finale - didn't tie up all the loose ends, but that's okay with me.  

She also talked about it with Alison and thought that they should talk to Scotty's mom and tell her the truth of the whole thing, but Alison said no way to that. 

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20 hours ago, WaltersHair said:

I did want Helen to come clean to SOMEONE that she was the one who killed Scotty. For a show where two murders occur, it seems odd how bloodless the series in general felt.

3 hours ago, Diane12251 said:

Helen did "come clean" to some people that she was the one who killed Scotty.  She told Vik -- and then later, she also told her parents (with Margaret yelling frantically at her to never say that again). 

In that same episode Diane12251 referenced Helen's parents heard her confession because she was telling Stacy and Trevor that she killed Scotty Lockheart. (The older two were away at school).

Later in the same ep. at a bar in Montauk she thought she was going to confess to Alison who stopped her and said she already knew. Noah told you? asked Helen. Then Alison told Helen she'd pushed Scotty into the road because he tried to attack her where they were standing  on the side of the road. Helen was saying we have to go tell Cherry (Scotty's mother). Alison said she would not go with her to Cherry's and that it would serve no purpose.

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1 minute ago, cardigirl said:

She also talked about it with Alison and thought that they should talk to Scotty's mom and tell her the truth of the whole thing, but Alison said no way to that. 

I forgot about Alison knowing the truth.  Sometimes it's hard to remember what happens from season to season.

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Just now, Diane12251 said:

I forgot about Alison knowing the truth.  Sometimes it's hard to remember what happens from season to season.

I think a lot of people who want Helen to take the blame (not you), forget that there was no guy in the road to hit until Alison pushed him into it.  In one of the two views of the accident that killed Scotty we hear Alison  saying I pushed him.

In a very recent episode 9? Noah referenced the incident 4 times talking to Helen!  One of them  during the me too accusations. Something about being punished for a crime he didn't commit and not doing that again and 3 other mentions, which I thought was strange given the timing.

People seem to forget that he took the blame for Helen AND Alison. Had everyone come forth and told the truth about  their part in Scotty's death some responsibility would have been laid at Alison's feet. It would have been a factor.

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33 minutes ago, T Summer said:

In that same episode Diane12251 referenced Helen's parents heard her confession because she was telling Stacy and Trevor that she killed Scotty Lockheart. (The older two were away at school).

Later in the same ep. at a bar in Montauk she thought she was going to confess to Alison who stopped her and said she already knew. Noah told you? asked Helen. Then Alison told Helen she'd pushed Scotty into the road because he tried to attack her where they were standing  on the side of the road. Helen was saying we have to go tell Cherry (Scotty's mother). Alison said she would not go with her to Cherry's and that it would serve no purpose.

Ah yes, thanks for the memory jolts!!

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1 minute ago, Diane12251 said:

Ah yes, thanks for the memory jolts!!

YW 😊

I'd go so far as to say I think it can reasonably be inferred everyone in the Solloway family knew the truth once Helen confessed. I doubt Stacy and Trevor would keep something so major a secret from Martin and Whitney... even though informing them wasn't shown on the series.

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2 hours ago, T Summer said:

When Noah and Whitney went to Montauk to plan the wedding, they ran into Luisa at the L.R. and I thought she told Noah they'd divorced or were split up and Cole and Joanie were leaving for Vermont? He went to try and say goodbye to Joanie and found an empty house

So why did Joanie act like Luisa had been in her life during her entire childhood and why did she call her "Mom?"

2 hours ago, T Summer said:

There IS an explaination for that. Originally posted by Stad15 in Speculation / Series as a whole

744200030_ScreenShot2019-11-02at1_17_07A

I do not get what you are implying. Are you saying Sarah Treem blocks all those who do not praise her? 

Edited by DakotaLavender
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45 minutes ago, DakotaLavender said:

I do not get what you are implying. Are you saying Sarah Treem blocks all those who do not praise her? 

It sure seems that way.  She said she welcomes constructive criticism, but "I just block people who are rude or trying to be hurtful" is code for "doesn't want to hear anything negative" IMO.

Edited by Diane12251
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1 hour ago, DakotaLavender said:

So why did Joanie act like Luisa had been in her life during her entire childhood and why did she call her "Mom?"

I do not get what you are implying? Are you saying Sarah Treem blocks all those who do not praise her? 

I cannot know for certain, but I'd have been a lot more interested in watching that story play out than the future Joanie. grown up E.J. elder Ben stuff.

 When we last saw Cole and Luisa together even though their relationship was over (no doubt the second Cole said "she was my wife" at the funeral) Cole said something about getting Luisa her citizenship by filing the hardship papers that indicate she was needed as Joanie's legal guardian. He said they could  stay married on paper. So maybe they did long enough to make that happen? It's the s4 ep 10  end of pt1.

If I were Cole  with a daughter  and her mother Alison had disappeared for 6 months then reappeared then  was  murdered, and the father she'd known for the first 2 or was it 4 years meaning Noah  dropped in and out of her life going to prison / to Paris / on a book tour.... if Luisa who no doubt  loved Joanie  wanted to stay in her life I'd do everything to make that happen. However the writers appeared to change his character completely in absentia so who knows?

Because Treem+the team decided to show us all this other stuff and new characters this season we'll never know  if Luisa saw her only on holidays or if they  appeared to stay together, living separate lives... I'm guessing not, because It looked as though in the back to Montauk to plan the wedding ep that Luisa wasn't going to Vermont with them. I guess we'll never know.

I think the writers this season actually forgot a few things that happened themselves! Like when Whitney says to Furcat at his apartment why did you hit me in Paris? In the Noah's me too scandal goes public so ep8? ... Did they forget Whitney and Furcat already discussed that at the Broad where Whitney went to Furcat's exhibit?

_________________________________________________________________________________________

I  copied that post over to this thread that people might not be seeing because they're not visiting the speculation thread now that the series is over. Tweet from poster accuses Treem of blocking people critical of the season. Treem's reply does not say I didn't do that... but instead said she's getting rid of people who are rude or trying to he hurtful.

So that could be why many here have found a good deal they didn't care for about the season and yet Twitter has mostly positive feedback according to the poster above who brought it up. If Treem finds posts critical of the season hurtful and eliminates them it would look like mostly positive feedback on Twitter.

Edited by T Summer · Reason: typo
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5 hours ago, itsadryheat said:

I recently changed my DISH programming and received 3 months free Showtime. I started watching The Affair thinking it was The Divorce and got sucked into it, binge watching all seasons in 3 weeks. Not sure what I watched or why. Loved the acting and characters. Due to the bi polar storyline/timeframe(s), and this "airy" ending, I now think I have PTSD. 

Well, you need to be careful with any offspring you might have after this because they might now suffer from inherited trauma...just sayin'...

I've been thinking about the finale and have the following thoughts in no particular order:

1. I didn't ever need the Joanie story line at all. It really added NOTHING to the series as a whole. It felt like a square peg being shoved into a round only for the sole purpose of the Lobster Roll scene. So sort of a testament to Treem's lack of creativity IMO.

2. I wasn't surprised that Noah & Helen got back together. It was sort of like most of us hate watched this to see it through to the end but the entire story could have just not happened since they ended up back together anyway. But I don't really care. If that's what Helen wants, so be it, she's put up with a lot of shit in life and I don't begrudge her this.

3. The whole Whitney is a fucking bitch bridezilla who won't let her father come to her wedding, then suddenly she has a change of heart after what? A faux flash mod at her own wedding, which she requested? Then she feels badly? The fuck?!?

4. The whole Noah buys the Lobster Roll and runs it right after Whitney's wedding? I call bullshit on that. So Tream means for us to buy into the fact that Noah bought the establishment where he first met his affair fuck buddy, and Helen goes along with this? Yeah, I can't see that happening based on what we've seen of Helen all these years. Sorry Treem, that's bullshit.

That's all I got. I guess I just don't care that much because the writers fucked off so long ago with their writing a cogent show, that now I get to fuck off from this show. It was good...once upon a time..

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The concept of seeing events from differing points of view was very enticing. It took a degree of focus, minus my usual multitasking while watching, too keep track of what was going on.

This, combined with the meandering storyline, felt like a déjà vu as a teen trying to figure out 2001 A Space Odyssey. (still couldn’t tell ya what I watched)

I half wanted it to stop and half wanted to see how it ends because I was invested in the characters. Hence, the binge part. Ending was disappointing, but in line with most of it after S2.

This could have been good. I felt like I took it more seriously than the powers. My two POV are   the writers took easy way out, or were imbibing on something, especially the Joanie Jetson and Prison Noah scenes/episodes.

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I did say in a prior episode's thread that I wanted to see Martin again, and I got my wish. Now I just wish I would've wished to see Oscar one more time. I love Oscar. He would have kicked geriatric Ben's ass. Fuck dancing. 

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2 hours ago, LibertarianSlut said:

I did say in a prior episode's thread that I wanted to see Martin again, and I got my wish. Now I just wish I would've wished to see Oscar one more time. I love Oscar. He would have kicked geriatric Ben's ass. Fuck dancing. 

You know while I don't regard  Oscar as a good person like I do Helen, Cole and Vik...

He kind of went down in The Affair history as a really vile character, but I have this theory that Cole, Alison and Oscar have a kind of closeness from  growing up in the town together and I'll bet L.R. zoning squabble not withstanding, any one of them could call the other if they really were in a pinch and needed something.

Was he gross to tell a relative newcomer like Noah he "had"  Alison in high school: Yes

Did he tell Cole about Alison's summer Iover: Yes

but only after she repeated what Noa said that he'd called the cops. Noah didn't know he faked calling. That set the Lockheart boys after him, so that was a tit for tat thing.

did he sell Gottlief the "that's our baby" info that could be seen as  motive for Noah: Yes

but the morning after Alison slept with Oscar he wanted to make her breakfast and go to a fall faire together... couple stuff. When Alison started to panic about not having her car he immediately tried to calm her down and said take my truck.

When everyone was a little older and more settled and the coke business was in the rear view, it seemed Oscar and Cole were becoming friends! If Cole felt Oscar wouldn't keep his secret (sleeping w/ Alison while w/ Luisa) he never would have basically affirmed his suspicion.

So while Oscar was a bad guy, he wasn't like...   a bad guy.

Edited by T Summer · Reason: typo
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On 11/4/2019 at 8:14 PM, Blakeston said:

If the writers didn't want us to think that Bruce died as a result of jumping in the pool in winter weather, then I think it was a disastrous mistake for them to establish that he died within (at most) a few weeks of the party.

If they didn't want us to think the events were related, they had no reason to establish that.

Exactly, and that's also why I think Margaret's and Helen's deaths had to be related (and I would've loved to know how), because if they weren't there was really no need to have them die in the same year.

On 11/4/2019 at 9:58 PM, JenE4 said:

 [...] We can assume they bought the Lobster Roll and stayed in Montauk to care for Helen’s parents, though Bruce dies either immediately or within weeks at most. Maybe the whole family moves back to the Butler mansion with grandma, and that’s why Stacy has experience enough there to write Montauk. There would be no reason for them to go back to LA. Vic’s gone, it’s over with (whatever) Mann, and their homes were likely destroyed in the fires. [...]

But EJ did say that Helen was a mother figure for him throughout his life, so we have to assume that unless Sierra moved to Montauk too, they all lived on the same coast for at least a few years. Add this to the list of things I would've rather found out instead of the useless and time consuming Joanie storyline in the future and all the other characters and plotlines that were introduced (Janelle and her husband, the return of Furkat, the Vanity Fair journalist and the whole #metoo incident etc.) and then left hanging.

12 hours ago, Blakeston said:

I'm not saying that Noah literally shrugged his shoulders. I'm saying that Noah's reaction to finding out his ex-wife was murdered by someone who continues to live happily in the community was shockingly calm. I can't even fathom learning something like that, and then pleasantly discussing about other subjects. 

If a psychopath ever murders me and then fucks with my child the way Ben fucked with Joanie, then I certainly hope that anyone who was close to me who learns the truth can muster up more anger than that.

Question - can someone help me with the timeline? How did we know that the finale was 2024?

Yeah, I found it quite odd how none of the characters this season ever mentioned Alison or her death even in passing. It's like since Ruth Wilson left the show Alison's character never existed. 

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Here is an excerpt from an interview with Vulture with Maura Tierney.  She doesn't appear to place any significance on Helen's death year.   I read another interview with Treem the day after the show aired that I cannot find now and it seemed she didn't even realize the coincidence of  the dates of Helen and Margaret's deaths.  

https://www.vulture.com/2019/11/the-affair-series-finale-maura-tierney.html

A few other interesting details: Helen is buried next to her parents and she died the same year as her mother. Her mother lived to be 100.
Of course she did. Margaret will never die!

I want to know what happened to Helen. Was she happy? And what happened to Margaret?
I don’t know. I have no clue. And I said to Sarah, “I don’t want to know.” That’s great, though. I don’t think it was in the script that they died in the same year. So Helen was in her 80s?

She was 79 by my math.
Wow. Well, that’s great.

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OK, this may have been it, but I swear I read a more expansive answer somewhere else.  I guess it had no more significance than "Margaret lives forever."  

TVLINE | When Old Man Noah visits the cemetery, we discover not only that Helen died in 2051, but that Margaret also died in 2051. I thought that was a brilliant little Easter egg for the fans.
I’m super proud of you for catching that, because I didn’t know that anybody was going to catch it. We thought it was hilarious that Margaret just basically lives forever.

From:

https://tvline.com/2019/11/03/the-affair-recap-season-5-episode-11-series-finale-explained/

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1 hour ago, weaver said:

I want to know what happened to Helen. Was she happy? And what happened to Margaret?
I don’t know. I have no clue. And I said to Sarah, “I don’t want to know.”

↑ from the Vulture interview.

I love this answer from Tierney. If the show was about anything, it's that we don't know what awaits us. Helen, in recommitting to Noah, has no idea how that's going to work out. If Tierney is going to play Helen believably, she also has to have no idea how that (or anything else) is going to work out.

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Or that’s just trauma.  

What EJ was getting at, with his whole epigeneticist spiel, is that it gets passed down the generations even if the child never witnessed these events.  Remember he went on about the history of the Lockharts.

It sounds like a fringe idea, like Ben with EDMR.

neither of these things are fringe. I have friends who are neuroscientists and study epigenetics and inherited trauma. It is fascinating!

agree that Cole would never have trash-talked Allison to Joanie. Totally unbelievable that he wouldn’t have told her all the time how much her mother loved her. I also thought it was ridiculous that Noah wouldn’t have seen or heard about Joanie in the past 30 years.

Also agree it was very odd Noah bought the Lobster Roll. Helen would never have agreed to that so it must have been after she died? Plot contrivance so that things could go full circle.

All that said, this episode was beautifully acted; I thought the reunion of Helen and Noah for no good reason but because life is short and they loved each other to be touching and somewhat believable, and I loved the ending with the kids forgiving Noah and eating cake outside the hotel room. 
I also appreciated the touches of comedy in the finale; Helen’s mom being around to bug her for her entire life was a great touch. 

neither of these things are fringe. I have friends who are neuroscientists and study epigenetics and inherited trauma. It is fascinating!

agree that Cole would never have trash-talked Allison to Joanie. Totally unbelievable that he wouldn’t have told her all the time how much her mother loved her. I also thought it was ridiculous that Noah wouldn’t have seen or heard about Joanie in the past 30 years.

Also agree it was very odd Noah bought the Lobster Roll. Helen would never have agreed to that so it must have been after she died? Plot contrivance so that things could go full circle.

All that said, this episode was beautifully acted; I thought the reunion of Helen and Noah for no good reason but because life is short and they loved each other to be touching and somewhat believable, and I loved the ending with the kids forgiving Noah and eating cake outside the hotel room. 
I also appreciated the touches of comedy in the finale; Helen’s mom being around to bug her for her entire life was a great touch.

Edited by betha
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7 hours ago, stormy weather said:

Exactly, and that's also why I think Margaret's and Helen's deaths had to be related (and I would've loved to know how), because if they weren't there was really no need to have them die in the same year.

But EJ did say that Helen was a mother figure for him throughout his life, so we have to assume that unless Sierra moved to Montauk too, they all lived on the same coast for at least a few years. Add this to the list of things I would've rather found out instead of the useless and time consuming Joanie storyline in the future and all the other characters and plotlines that were introduced (Janelle and her husband, the return of Furkat, the Vanity Fair journalist and the whole #metoo incident etc.) and then left hanging.

Yeah, I found it quite odd how none of the characters this season ever mentioned Alison or her death even in passing. It's like since Ruth Wilson left the show Alison's character never existed. 

At the wedding they made a point that Sierra was now in a relationship with the director, and the director’s parents were babysitting where he grew up nearby in Great Neck, so it’s entirely feasible that she married him and they moved back to the area of his family. These are all assumptions filling in the blanks, of course, but they threw in enough of these little details that the assumptions could make sense.

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2 hours ago, betha said:

neither of these things are fringe. I have friends who are neuroscientists and study epigenetics and inherited trauma. It is fascinating!

Treem actually talked about DNA changing.

Is she saying that the person who experiences the trauma has his or her DNA change and then that gets passed down to some future child?

Or in this case, Joanie didn't witness Alison get murdered yet her DNA changed somehow?

And this changed DNA made her unable to get close to her adopted daughters or her husband?

If that's the case, instead of therapy, maybe we need to develop drugs to change the DNA back.

I think it would be a big deal if DNA changed that easily.

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Ok I didn’t watch the finale or last few episodes because I have to wait to go to My parents house to get showtime .. but the guy at the cemetery ( Eddie ) is Vic and sierras son ? I’m confused , isn’t that guy Asian ? How would that be their biological son ? 

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22 hours ago, T Summer said:

Tweet from poster accuses Treem of blocking people critical of the season. Treem's reply does not say I didn't do that... but instead said she's getting rid of people who are rude or trying to he hurtful.

So that could be why many here have found a good deal they didn't care for about the season and yet Twitter has mostly positive feedback according to the poster above who brought it up. If Treem finds posts critical of the season hurtful and eliminates them it would look like mostly positive feedback on Twitter.

Ah, yes - there's a method to her madness.  She only wants to have positive Tweets about the show, and is skewing the internet to make sure everyone thinks the show was loved by the masses.  I really liked the show, but I do question some of the choices for this final season.  A lot of loose ends that weren't tied up.  Not that every single thing needs to be explained, but they really could have done a better job of ending the series.  Of course, previous seasons have been a complete disaster - especially Season 3 with the whole Noah-Gunther mess/fiasco.

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7 hours ago, betha said:

neither of these things are fringe. I have friends who are neuroscientists and study epigenetics and inherited trauma. It is fascinating!

It's an intriguing idea, but the theory of inherited trauma was based on a very flawed study so is at least controversial.    Experts debunk study that found Holocaust trauma is inherited

To me it makes little sense from an evolutionary standpoint, but further studies should settle the question, so was surprised to see EJ 30 years from now still trying to connect-the dots.affair5_11bb.thumb.jpg.fb6a4c1f9c7ccaf8a39d854c29b2b7c5.jpg 

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13 hours ago, weaver said:

I’m super proud of you for catching that, because I didn’t know that anybody was going to catch it. We thought it was hilarious that Margaret just basically lives forever.

Well, maybe I'm just way more intellectual than Ms. Treem is but that's hardly an 'easter egg', it was pretty fucking obvious to pretty much all of us so, not so sekrit. And hilarious? I suppose anything not related to Noah Solloway ruining people's lives directly has become humor for this show...whatev.

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Here’s an example below about mice inheriting a distaste for a certain smell for those who are interested. Regarding the Holocaust generational trauma study, I wouldn’t say that it was “debunked”- the author of the opinion piece posted above was just pointing out weaknesses like small sample size and saying that study was overinterpreted - not saying the research was somehow fraudulent. The field is clearly still in beginning stages. But, it’s not pseudoscience. Also including a more recent BBC article that gives some broader context. https://news.emory.edu/stories/2013/12/smell_epigenetics_ressler/campus.html

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20190326-what-is-epigenetics

to bring it back to the show, I think it is reasonable to have a character studying this; however, the idea that you could see these types of effects in one family is a stretch; I would agree it is much more likely joanie’s issues were related to direct trauma rather than inherited trauma. 
 

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5 hours ago, Jaclyn88 said:

but the guy at the cemetery ( Eddie ) is Vic and sierras son ? I’m confused , isn’t that guy Asian ?

I said the same thing. I guess someone thought he looked like he could be Vik's son with Sierra. I don't know...

I don't really care either. I saw no purpose to his character, except being put there as a catalyst/prop for Joanie to find out about Ben? But that story fizzled out to nothing but a big ol' happy ever after/home is where the heart is/I see the light for Joanie who treated Eddie like shit til the very end. I was expecting him to chase her down the road and yell, "But I'm dynamite in bed!"

Thoroughly disliked hearing that Cole said awful things about Alison to Joanie. Kind of a character assassination. He would never have done that unless he lost his marbles.

Noah's "old" makeup was extremely good - so good, I didn't recogize him.

Noah and Helen gettin' it on in the ground-floor dump with the curtains open and their kids sitting outside: Not a fan.

Acting as always was exceptional.

I did like the dancing thing at the wedding. It was cute and the actors seemed to be really enjoying it. Whiney irritated the hell out of me with her, "Dad's all alone?" as though that came as a surprise and had nothing to do with her banning him from the wedding after the trouble and expense he went to.

I was okay with Helen and Noah ending up together. They were both tired of it all and being together would be familiar, comfortable and easy, I guess, as long as Helen can beat all the women off of Noah Fucking Solloway. They probably both learned a lot over the years.

6 hours ago, Diane12251 said:

Of course, previous seasons have been a complete disaster - especially Season 3 with the whole Noah-Gunther mess/fiasco.

I felt like I was on drugs or had become an amnesiac watching that. For me, it was salvaged somewhat by Brendan Fraser's performance which made all that mess watchable for me.

I will miss this show, but I'm still on Se01 of my rewatch, so there's that. I have forgotten a lot of it. Loved all the great discussion here!

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19 hours ago, Jaclyn88 said:

Ok I didn’t watch the finale or last few episodes because I have to wait to go to My parents house to get showtime .. but the guy at the cemetery ( Eddie ) is Vic and sierras son ? I’m confused , isn’t that guy Asian ? How would that be their biological son ? 

OK...discussion of the final episode is ruled okay, so...
Yes, Eddie/EJ is Vic and Sierra's son.
It certainly appears that Sierra got her act together and the kid turned out alright.
Minor mystery is why he spent time (in his teens) on Montauk. Did Mom (Sierra) get some NYC acting gigs and then spend time out on Long Island?  That was not spelled out in the show.  OR, did EJ spend time with Helen (and Noah?) because Helen provided the grounding that Sierra really needed.
Anyway, enjoy the finale, especially the final scenes with Noah.  Nicely, nicely done.

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19 minutes ago, grommit2 said:

Minor mystery is why he spent time (in his teens) on Montauk. Did Mom (Sierra) get some NYC acting gigs and then spend time out on Long Island? 

I thought the boyfriend she brought to the wedding had family in Montauk, or family that vacationed in Montauk.  Maybe she stayed with him, so they ended up spending a lot of time in Montauk.

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On 11/6/2019 at 12:45 PM, scrb said:

Treem actually talked about DNA changing.

Is she saying that the person who experiences the trauma has his or her DNA change and then that gets passed down to some future child?

Or in this case, Joanie didn't witness Alison get murdered yet her DNA changed somehow?

And this changed DNA made her unable to get close to her adopted daughters or her husband?

If that's the case, instead of therapy, maybe we need to develop drugs to change the DNA back.

I think it would be a big deal if DNA changed that easily.

Two points about E.J's. Epigenetics research:

If in 30 years humanity is in such peril because the coasts are crumbling, seas are rising, food and fuel are scarce...

Why would anyone who had any kind of scientific background like E.J.  be researching Epigenetics? Even if it's not your chosen discipline, wouldn't any kind of scientist channel their energies into   finding out how to ensure that there will be future generations? Talk about rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic!

Secondly, where would you find families with no trauma experienced by their ancestors to compare to? ...  what about anyone who's father or grandfather  fought in a war?

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Thought about this inherited trauma some more.

Remember, Treem said in the TVLine.com interview that DNA changes as trauma is inherited.  

So I thought wouldn't a lot of Holocaust descendants have this inherited trauma?  Or children of parents who suffered PTSD due to combat duty?

As it turns out, this idea of inherited trauma came from a  controversial study of Holocaust descendants, comparing their DNA tags to those of descendants of Jews who lived outside of Europe.

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/aug/21/study-of-holocaust-survivors-finds-trauma-passed-on-to-childrens-genes

And here's a Cambridge professor rebutting the study:

https://www.theguardian.com/science/blog/2015/sep/11/why-im-sceptical-about-the-idea-of-genetically-inherited-trauma-epigenetics

In any event, if this mechanism was real, one would think inherited  trauma would be very common as a lot of veterans of war or victims of crimes would pass on their trauma to their children.

Or what about people who've suffered a traumatic loss of a loved one due to illnesses or accidents of some kind?  Why would their children not inherit trauma?

In the context of this show, Joanie would have inherited the trauma Alison went through from the death of Gabriel, not the murder.  If Joanie had children, she might pass on her trauma from the loss of Alison to her biological children.

But it sounds like there's nowhere near a consensus on this genetic mechanism.  Loss and all sorts of trauma are fairly common experiences for most people.  So almost all children would be inheriting some kind of trauma genes from their parents, if the theory is true.

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Many in the media have become enamored with this theory and are using it for various purposes and agendas already.  I expect we'll see more from the entertainment industry built around the idea, but it's far from factual and based primarily on one small but flawed study that's been misunderstood and blown out of proportion.

As the wise old Noah says to Joanie when explaining how this DNA stuff works (to an alleged scientist):   "Your parents went through a lot of trauma.   I mean, they lost a child.  It makes sense that you too are afraid of loss."

No, it doesn't make sense.   For starters, in the not-too-distant past children dying was extremely common.  Even many Census forms had columns for "Number of children born" and "Number still living".   Heartbreaking, but not unexpected.  People just didn't have the luxury of being traumatized every time a child died.

"Inherited trauma" would have traumatized us into extinction a long time ago.

Joanie was lead to believe that her mother cared only for Gabriel. She was never told how much Alison loved her or the context of circumstances.  Despite Cole believing she was murdered, he never shared this and let her believe she was abandoned.  You'd think a man who once told Whitney:

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would have more empathy and insight to how devastating a parent's suicide can be.  Most people would know this even without direct experience. 

Edited by Razzberry
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Isn't the study of "inherited trauma" also the study of how people respond to that inheritance? Some people seem incapable of coping well with life, and others become more resilient?  At least, I thought that was what EJ told Joanie when he met her in the cemetery that day.  So clearly, we are not going to be traumatized out of existence. Well, at least, not all of us. 😉 

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8 hours ago, Razzberry said:

As the wise old Noah says to Joanie when explaining how this DNA stuff works (to an alleged scientist):   "Your parents went through a lot of trauma.   I mean, they lost a child.  It makes sense that you too are afraid of loss."

I've never heard of "inherited trauma" but in this case I would think having her mother 'leave' her would make Joanie afraid of loss, not Alison and Cole losing their child. Maybe not so wise, that Old Noah.

8 hours ago, Razzberry said:

"Inherited trauma" would have traumatized us into extinction a long time ago.

For sure. My father had severe PTSD from the war, yet none of his children feel it. It doesn't make any sense to me. I don't see how something that happened before you were born can traumatize you, but what do I know?

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On 11/3/2019 at 10:32 PM, T Summer said:

She also does it with "Mawn Tauk"!

Thats pretty much how us locals say it. 

On 11/4/2019 at 11:23 AM, weaver said:

I noticed that too.   And she came out of the car without even a handbag.   

They acted as if Ireland was Siberia.   "How long is the flight."  Come on, Noah.  

I had more of an issue with how would she get from JFK to Montauk?? It would take at least 2.5 hours and who was going to drive her? 

On 11/4/2019 at 1:49 PM, Razzberry said:

What was the purpose of having Noah kick in his motel room door?  A fit of machismo, an immediate need to lick his wounds,  a `powerful hunger for Pringles?  It probably just needed a squirt of WD40.

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Seems like Noah has always hated doors and has spent a lot of time pounding on them.

I was like DUDE I CAN SEE THE OFFICE JUST GO OVER THERE AND ASK THEM FOR HELP

On 11/5/2019 at 12:50 PM, Stad15 said:

Sarah Treem said nobody on the show pays for their crimes.  Which is actually true when you think about it.  Cole/drug dealing, Helen/Scotty murder, Luisa/undocumented, Cole/arson, Ben/Alison's murder....all didn't get arrested or brought to justice.

Except Noah pays for Helen's crime

On 11/5/2019 at 1:11 PM, Diane12251 said:

Helen did "come clean" to some people that she was the one who killed Scotty.  She told Vik -- and then later, she also told her parents (with Margaret yelling frantically at her to never say that again).  

I don't think "inherited trauma" has anything to do with someone dying their hair blond and somehow passing on to their descendants a propensity for lighter hair.  "Inherited trauma" has to do with traumatic events in people's lives like death, suicide, serious injury, and so on.  The fact that Joanie thought Alison had committed suicide had affected her life deeply, so that trauma had been passed on to her.  

I, too, liked the ending with Noah alone on the bluff.  All in all, I liked the finale - didn't tie up all the loose ends, but that's okay with me.  

But would that change her DNA?

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3 hours ago, MamaMax said:

Except Noah pays for Helen's crime

I think you missed the context.  She said nobody pays for THEIR crimes.  Noah didn't kill Scotty.  So no, Helen didn't serve prison time.

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OK, I'm hormonal and I bawled through the last 2/3 of the episode. 

I'm pissed that Sasha wasn't exposed as trying to take down Noah. The whole #metoo shit - what was that? Noah didn't become ruined and destitute as he had enough money (maybe?) to buy the Lobster Roll. Maybe Helen was an accidental death and he got insurance money and could buy it.

Joanie was 99% unnecessary except to expose Ben as murdering Alison. EJ was 100% unnecessary and ... well, I have a looong list. I also don't get how Cole knew Ben killed Allison, according to Noah, yet he told Joanie for the rest of his life that Allison was a horrible user who couldn't stand to be her mother and couldn't get over Gabriel so she killed herself to get away from Joanie et al. BUT in Cole's house, there's an Allison Shrine?

Whitney and Martin dancing like a high school couple at prom was so cringe-worthy. And Whitney is so fucking foul. Absolutely zero redeeming qualities.

So Noah learns that Ben killed a woman he loved, and that's it? He just hangs out and chats with Joanie about mice and cherry blossoms and intergenerational trauma? In my head Noah goes and offs Ben to avenge Allison.

I feel like the money ran out and it was "QUICK! Write something, fast! Fuck the plotholes and missed opportunities to write a resolution to ANYTHING!" Ugh.

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On 11/3/2019 at 7:26 PM, T Summer said:

You get that I was making fun of the way Whitney said  "awp tics" while she was being horrible to her mother right? 😄

Thank you I missed Helen asking about little Eddie...must have dozed off.

I totally get that - I dozed off three times watching this finale, good that I watched it On Demand so was able to fast forward to my last known level of consciousness lol.   I am glad this is over and I no longer even care about all the unresolved issues, stupid plot lines that had no purpose, there was just way too much meaningless mash in the mix.  Did we ever find when or how Cole dies?

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59 minutes ago, endure said:

I totally get that - I dozed off three times watching this finale, good that I watched it On Demand so was able to fast forward to my last known level of consciousness lol.   I am glad this is over and I no longer even care about all the unresolved issues, stupid plot lines that had no purpose, there was just way too much meaningless mash in the mix.  Did we ever find when or how Cole dies?

Oh yes we did. We're supposed to believe grown Joanie knows nothing about how her mother died until E.J. the answer man pops onto the scene and tells her, but...

she questioned the paramedics about how her father died and found out he was trying to get to his heart medications and would have survived had he been able to!!!🙄🙄🙄

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6 hours ago, lightninggirl said:

OK, I'm hormonal and I bawled through the last 2/3 of the episode. 

I'm pissed that Sasha wasn't exposed as trying to take down Noah. The whole #metoo shit - what was that? Noah didn't become ruined and destitute as he had enough money (maybe?) to buy the Lobster Roll. Maybe Helen was an accidental death and he got insurance money and could buy it.

Joanie was 99% unnecessary except to expose Ben as murdering Alison. EJ was 100% unnecessary and ... well, I have a looong list. I also don't get how Cole knew Ben killed Allison, according to Noah, yet he told Joanie for the rest of his life that Allison was a horrible user who couldn't stand to be her mother and couldn't get over Gabriel so she killed herself to get away from Joanie et al. BUT in Cole's house, there's an Allison Shrine?

Whitney and Martin dancing like a high school couple at prom was so cringe-worthy. And Whitney is so fucking foul. Absolutely zero redeeming qualities.

So Noah learns that Ben killed a woman he loved, and that's it? He just hangs out and chats with Joanie about mice and cherry blossoms and intergenerational trauma? In my head Noah goes and offs Ben to avenge Allison.

I feel like the money ran out and it was "QUICK! Write something, fast! Fuck the plotholes and missed opportunities to write a resolution to ANYTHING!" Ugh.

That about covers it!

Of all the extraneous characters and unfinished story lines and themes dropped into the last few episodes out of nowhere like me too, climate change  etc...  the thing that bothered me the  most was having characters act one way and then completely differently in an episode or two  WTH? and the worst offense by miles was doing a total and complete rewrite of Cole's character.

absolutely ridiculous.

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17 hours ago, lightninggirl said:

Joanie was 99% unnecessary except to expose Ben as murdering Alison. EJ was 100% unnecessary and ... well, I have a looong list.

Not only unnecessary but boring as hell, unless there are people who were dying to see grown Joanie having icky sex/talking to her toilet computer and being surly. What a waste of time. All the time spent watching Joanie display bitch-face, get it on and treat nerdy EJ like shit could have been spent in much better ways in flashbacks with the characters we knew and actually cared about.

17 hours ago, lightninggirl said:

The whole #metoo shit - what was that?

Yeah - why? It had no resolution or meaning whatsoever and we never saw any consequences of it. Did someone really say, "It's the last season. Let's shoehorn in as many new and meaningless characters as possible, because...?"

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On 11/5/2019 at 10:11 AM, poeticlicensed said:

I do find it admirable that they managed to make 5 seasons float with nearly all the characters being unlikeable to some degree, some more than others. 

I do not think all the characters were unlikable. They were people, with many aspects to themselves. I don't think anybody is totally likable or unlikeable. They do good and bad things. Who is a total "Pollyanna?" 

I am one of those viewer who never disliked Noah. He did some asinine things for sure, but I never crossed over into hating him. Helen said some brutal thing, but I always liked her. I thought Whitney was a huge brat but in some scenes I liked her. It seems more true to life: to have them mess up big time as many people do and then suffer the consequences of their huge mistakes. 

But, I acknowledge we all come to this with our own perspectives based on our own personal life histories. 

1 minute ago, AngelaHunter said:

"It's the last season. Let's shoehorn in as many new and meaningless characters as possible, because...?"

I think Treem thought she was being creative. She is a lousy writer and she provided no satisfying end to the Alison murder. It was ridiculous and she should lose her membership in the WGA. 

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10 minutes ago, DakotaLavender said:

I think Treem thought she was being creative.

Maybe she took her cues from Scott Buck, who did a similar incomprehensible hack job for the last season of "Dexter."

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On 11/3/2019 at 10:32 PM, T Summer said:

She also does it with "Mawn Tauk"!

I hate this. Whitney has some accent that's not native to lower NY, and it bothers me. I was raised on Long Island and I've only ever heard it pronounced "MON-tawk."  That "Mawn" is from some other region. Whitney pronounces it the way my cousin, who is from LA, would. 

I think it's part of an actor's job to learn and perfect the accent of the region, or it takes me out of the scene. Maybe Whitney, who grew up in an age of YouTube, purposely cultivated this accent for some reason?  I'm not saying she would have the stereotypical old school Brooklyn accent, asking someone if they want to tawk ovah cawfee, but why doesn't she sound more like Helen?

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1 hour ago, AngelaHunter said:

Yeah - why? It [the me-too plotline] had no resolution or meaning whatsoever and we never saw any consequences of it.

I think we did see the consequences of it. It drove Noah to a greater and greater state of desperation and isolation, even existential peril. And that created the conditions for him to realize how much he needed his family.

One may not like that it took this to bring him to his epiphany. But a Noah in career ascendancy, winning the adoration of women, coming to the same realization? I don't think so.

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25 minutes ago, Milburn Stone said:

I think we did see the consequences of it. It drove Noah to a greater and greater state of desperation and isolation, even existential peril. And that created the conditions for him to realize how much he needed his family.

One may not like that it took this to bring him to his epiphany. But a Noah in career ascendancy, winning the adoration of women, coming to the same realization? I don't think so.

and that is why I didn't like Helen getting back with Noah.

When I went looking for something I read some long  s1 +2 threads and a few people hypothesized that Noah "went looking" because he didn't feel needed at home or Helen wore the pants in the relationship... some nonsense  like that.

So now that...

he was in a bad financial position and could only afford to contribute x to Whitney's wedding but not pay for the the 20k tent

and he probably didn't profit greatly from the movie as he was hoping to with his name being taken off of it

and he no doubt lost his teaching job after the me too scandal

and he's been out having loads of indiscriminate sex and who knows what state his sexual health is in

Now Helen not making him feel needed and most of the money coming from her or her family is no longer  an issue?

 I hate a user.

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1 hour ago, LibertarianSlut said:

I hate this. Whitney has some accent that's not native to lower NY, and it bothers me. I was raised on Long Island and I've only ever heard it pronounced "MON-tawk."  That "Mawn" is from some other region. Whitney pronounces it the way my cousin, who is from LA, would. 

I think it's part of an actor's job to learn and perfect the accent of the region, or it takes me out of the scene. Maybe Whitney, who grew up in an age of YouTube, purposely cultivated this accent for some reason?  I'm not saying she would have the stereotypical old school Brooklyn accent, asking someone if they want to tawk ovah cawfee, but why doesn't she sound more like Helen?

Whitney's accent is affected i.e. pretentious.

I don't usually make fun of the way anyone speaks, but when I heard Whitney say she was only having her mother there for the sake of appearances and  she said  to Helen "do not make this about you!"   all bets were off.

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I don’t think the entire show was written in staceys book .. how could she possibly know every little thing that happened in everyone’s perspectives and everyone’s lives ? 
 

I didn’t like Helen and Noah ending up together because I think he just needed her more than he wanted her . He was at his lowest point .. accused of sexual harassment , no current girlfriend , his kids hated him , he lost his writing career . I would have liked if they got back together under circumstances that they spent a lot of time together and it developed naturally between them and another woman hit on him but he grew past being a horn dog and realized how much he loved her .  It was clear that Helen always loved him but I never bought that he would want to be with her again . 
 

agree with everyone that the Joanie story line could have been really good but it fell flat . And I’d hardly call what Joanie and Eddie had a connection . I mean yeah , they were in an extremely distant circle where they may have heard of each other in the same way you might hear about your 5th cousin ( which isn’t likely )but it wasn’t anything that she should get mad about or that really mattered . 
 

whitney was truly written as the biggest brat and I would have made her pay for her own wedding. 
 

Martin who ? Was he even a factor in the show ? No need for him to be a 4th kid 

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9 hours ago, Jaclyn88 said:

I don’t think the entire show was written in staceys book .. how could she possibly know every little thing that happened in everyone’s perspectives and everyone’s lives ? 

Within my theory, here's the answer to your question. Stacey is a novelist. That means she uses her imagination to augment the real events that are her raw material. Exactly the way Sarah Treem does! Noah is not "real." Helen, Alison, Whitney, et. al, are not "real." But Sarah Treem is able to get inside them. She's also able to invent a character named Stacey who has a novelist's ability to get inside her characters.

Stacey was witness to many of the key events in the show (going all the way back to Noah's and Alison's first meeting at The Lobster Roll!), and certainly had heard about other events either by overhearing or being told by others. She then, as a novelist, certainly would have used her imagination, and her empathy for the human condition, to fill in the gaps.

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PrincessPurrsALot

For the last time in this forum, episode talk please.  Take small talk to the small talk thread.  Since this is the series finale, discussion of the series as a whole and prior episodes is also okay. If you're here, you've likely seen it all.  😸

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