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Green Arrow & The Canaries

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3 hours ago, tv echo said:

Just call it Arrow Legacy. Then you have more flexibility to change characters and actors, if necessary.

The biggest problem there is the CW also has the show “Legacies” already and they’d want to keep it as clear as possible.

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I've got a theory! (that it's a demon...)

Ahem. One of the first things I said when they announced that this spinoff will have Mia, Dinah, and Siren is that one of the birds will be the Obligatory First Season Death. Last night's Arrow has me theorizing that it will be Dinah.

First, and assuming the title doesn't change, the Canaries is general enough to allow them to cycle through multiple characters if they want. I really want them to have Zoe in the spinoff so she'd be right there to take over.

Second, Dinah's barely been in this season of Arrow and, while that may change, Siren already has way more screen time including one on one scenes with Mia.

Third, Mia had a line to Siren last night about how SHE'S (Siren) the Black Canary and this big deal hero that Mia heard all about growing up. Mia's met Dinah, knows she was also the Black Canary and founder of the Canary Network, yet all the stories she heard were about Siren. Now, I believe that the bulk of the stories she's heard are really about when Sara and Laurel each wore the mask, as Black Siren took over Laurel's life but only suited up once before returning to Earth 2. There's no evidence to suggest that Star City ever knew that Sara was the first Black Canary and they certainly don't know that Siren is Laurel's doppelganger from a parallel universe who assumed her identity to save her own ass, so it's very likely that they believe that what Sara did in season 2 and what Laurel did in season 3/season 4 were all done by the same woman. Those are two years worth of stories for Mia to have heard about. So, since all the stories Mia heard about growing up were not about Dinah's Black Canary but Siren's, that points to Dinah being expendable.

Four, Harkavy has her fans but those numbers are not nearly as high as what Cassidy and McNamara bring to the show. They're far less likely to have enraged fans gunning for them if they kill off Dinah (especially if they give her a good season plot and a hero's death rather than putting her into the background with little to do like they did in the run up to Laurel's season 4 death) so she's expendable for that reason as well.

Five, Dinah Drake is not a part of any current comic story. Comic readers know her comic history as Dinah Lance's mom and the first Black Canary generally but she's not a part of Rebirth. Dinah Lance is. I think that will play a role in deciding to kill off Dinah on the show. If Dinah Drake had been a runaway hit character for Arrow then I don't think her lack of comic story would matter but she wasn't.

Finally, all of Siren's crimes have been glossed over and they've been hitting hard at her being a hero. First it was because she helped out Felicity when no one else would, then it was because she finally made the choice to not kill Felicity, Dinah, and Sara, and now it's because she's continuing to help out Oliver and Team Arrow in the lead up to the crossover. We've seen her apologize to Dinah for killing her boyfriend and look disturbed when Diaz burned a man alive but that's it as far as redemption. We've seen nothing about the woman whose shoes she wanted, or the security guard, or the people she terrorized in Central City, or even William for helping Chase kill his mom. Typically when crimes get glossed over like this it's because the character is on a fast track to redemption and the show just wants to deal with the result rather than the process. I think they'll want Mia, Dinah, and Siren to all be in official hero mode when the spinoff begins and they can't do that if they're still dealing with Siren's crimes. At best we'll get references to them like when she mentioned being a former member of Team Villain but no examination will occur.

So, yeah, I think it'll be Dinah.

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Could be Dinah... I’d be okay with “Zoe and the Canary Network lives; DD and LL die.”

I’m for that mainly because Zoe leading the Canary Network was almost certainly the original premise for the spinoff until network meddling required the KC and Harklevy be added.

Frankly, adding the two elder Canaries back into the story after s7 was all about the next generation coming into their own as the mentors stepped back just really undermines the premise of what was set up to be a solid near future/low sci-fi premise... particularly if time travel shenanigans are required to get DD and LL into the story.

While part of me thinks they’ll try to keep the timeline we saw in s7 mostly intact... I do wonder if part of the time travel for Mia, William and Connor isn’t about undoing Zoe’s death (by having her never become a Canary) so they can give her a better ending while still clearing a path for DD and LL.

Honestly, at this point, Zoe feels like the obligatory season one death to me simply because it already feels like we got a season one of sorts via the Flashforwards in s7 and early s8... with this show’s first season with Mia taking up the Green Arrow name corresponding more to Arrow s2 where Ollie went from being “The Hood” and a vigilante killer to “The Arrow” and a (mostly) no-kill hero.

As further parallels for this; the flash forwards last season involved coming together to stop a plot to destroy a portion of the city in order to fix it (i.e. the Malcolm’s s1 plans for the Glades) while this season’s story (and presumably the backdoor pilot/s1 of this show) is the heroes dealing with the Deathstroke Gang as led by a literal (rather than figurative) brother to one of the heroes.  

In which case DD or LL could be the Moira equivalent “elder parental figure” loss for the show’s first (feels like second) season, I suppose.

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Arrow's Katherine McNamara Digs Deep Into Oliver and Mia's Father/Daughter Relationship
by LAUREN PIESTER | Tue., Nov. 19, 2019 
https://www.eonline.com/news/1095040/arrow-s-katherine-mcnamara-digs-deep-into-oliver-and-mia-s-father-daughter-relationship 

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Can you talk at all about the backdoor spinoff you filmed? How much more are we going to get to know Mia? 
I mean, I can say it's very exciting, and very different, and there's really not much else I can say. 

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So “more birds? I’ll pass” is tied with “Curious. Might watch” for 1st place and most of the people who cared enough to post comments are saying they’d only be watching for FTA and hope the birds’ role will be on the side-line and not the main focus (with particular hopes for William and Connor playing a big role and even hoping for Zoe to somehow survive).

My suspicion is that tacking the Carnaries onto what was clearly being set up as a FTA series was a deal between whoever in the CW can’t stop thinking KC is a headliner and the Arrowverse producers to guarantee a pickup because there is little real enthusiasm for a LL and DD focused series (not surprising... KC and JH have been playing these roles for 7+/3+ years... if their characters were going to take off they would have done so already... like CL’s Sarah Lance did).

Hopefully (for me anyway), they’ll be as sidelined on the new show as they’ve been on Arrow.

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Why the potential ‘Arrow’ spin-off should be set in Star City 2040
Lynsey Neill  November 21, 2019
https://www.purefandom.com/2019/11/21/arrow-spinoff-star-city-2040/ 

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As the season 7 flash forwards progressed last year on Arrow (and especially after Blackstar was revealed to be Mia Smoak, AKA Oliver and Felicity’s daughter), fans were clamouring and speculating about a spinoff for Mia Smoak and Team Arrow’s future kids. Speaking for myself, I was excited by the concept, team dynamics, and seeing the kids of the characters I love interact and fight for a common goal. And along the way, they became more than just the kids of the characters I love. They became characters I love.
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The spin-off being set in 2040 is a good thing for a lot reasons. Firstly, it just makes sense. Mia (and William and Connor) are from 2040. Of course they would want to go back to it, and seemingly, fight for it.

But also, we’ve seen the present day storylines with Oliver. Even though he “dies” in Crisis, continuing a spin-off in present day would feel too much like season 9 of Arrow. Enough time has passed in 2040 for the stories to be new and fresh, and we also wouldn’t constantly be waiting for Felicity Smoak or John Diggle to show up. It also ties a bow on Arrow so we can have a proper series finale.

Being set in 2040 also gives the actors some freedom. They can surely reprise their roles if they wanted to (the actors that aren’t apart of it), but the story won’t be so tied so closely to recent events on Arrow, that the writers have to come up with frustrating reasons as to why they aren’t there. Also, it’s more likely the fans won’t bug actors so much on social media wanting them to show up in the spin-off.

But more consequently, it all comes down to what do you want for Oliver Queen? He even answers what he wants for himself in season 6:
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One day, he wants to feel comfortable enough hanging up the hood and so he can live the rest of his life in peace with his family. And he did get that for a while, until The Monitor showed up. But, was the city “saved” during that time in Olicity’s love cabin? No…
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Simply, do I need Star City completely “saved” or else it will be like everything Oliver has accomplished would have been for nothing? No, I don’t. A big part of Arrow is the fight for Star City, but another big part, and arguably a larger part, is saving Oliver Queen. Saving him from his guilt, his self-hatred, and turning him truly into the Paragon we all know he is.

And what does “saving” a city even mean? Oliver has saved it multiple times from disasters and corruption.
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All I know is Star City is a better place because Oliver Queen was The Green Arrow.
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The spin-off being set in 2040 makes it less likely we will have crossovers. And I’m okay with it. This new show can be separated from everyone else. That doesn’t automatically mean it’s lost its Arrowverse merit badge, or it’s not a valid part of this universe. If you love these characters, you’ll be okay. But if your sole enjoyment is crossovers, I would recommend peacing out.

Side note, wouldn’t it be fun if the kids of characters on other shows showed up in this spin-off as well? Maybe Iris and Barry’s kids? Sara and Ava’s kids? Kara and Lena’s kids?… (yeah, you heard me right).
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What does this mean for Dinah and Laurel? Either they are their future selves, (I’m picturing something like a wise Council of Canaries) or they go to the future. Either one is fine by me.

Edited by tv echo
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From LoT panel with CL, BR and CF at Wizard World Bay Area in Oakland, CA, yesterday (Nov. 23)...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTpK4Z3yQv0
(steven alvarez)

-- In response to fan who asked if she had anything to say about the new Green Arrow and the Canaries spinoff and whether she'd be in it, CL: "I say, 'hell, yeah.' I want to see that show. Yeah. Those women are awesome. I love them dearly. Um, I don't think I need to spin off anymore.. I've been spun around."

Edited by tv echo
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I haven't been following all the news/teases about this crossover; but is Katie Cassidy the only original castmember from Arrow that is going to be in this spinoff?

If that's right, then if this spinoff goes to series, she will be the actor that has been in the Arrow-verse the longest!

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Arrow's Katherine McNamara Talks Filling Stephen Amell's Shoes After Crisis on Infinite Earths
By RUSS BURLINGAME - December 3, 2019
https://comicbook.com/dc/2019/12/04/katherine-mcnamara-new-green-arrow-after-crisis-infinite-earths/ 

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... immediately after "Crisis on Infinite Earths," McNamara will appear in an episode of Arrow designed to set up a spinoff that she will headline alongside longtime Arrow actors Katie Cassidy and Juliana Harkavy.

Oliver will become the first superhero in the Arrowverse -- indeed, the first series lead in a comic book show -- to do something that so many comic book characters have done over the years: pass the mantle to the next generation. And McNamara knows exactly how much pressure that comes with.

"It's a responsibility -- and it's one that I don't take lightly, but it's one that I'm very excited to get to carry a little bit," McNamara told ComicBook.com. "Working with Stephen, this season, has been so wonderful because I've gotten to watch him do just that and I've gotten to watch how he handled this responsibility and this legacy. And it's been great to follow in his footsteps, in a sense."

Edited by tv echo

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Green Arrow and the Canaries Synopsis Officially Revealed:

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The CW has released the official synopsis for "Green Arrow and the Canaries," the penultimate episode of Arrow and the backdoor pilot for the planned spinoff starring Katherine McNamara as the daughter of Oliver Queen and Felicity Smoak. The series will also bring back Laurel Lance (Katie Cassidy) and Dinah Drake (Juliana Harkavy) in supporting roles, while bringing over some Arrow writing and producing talent to run the show if it goes to series. The backdoor pilot, which will air on January 21, will center on a version of Star City in 2040, where Mia finds her world much more idyllic than it has been in the flash-forwards...but all of that is threatened when she has to return to action.

In keeping with the series-long tradition of naming the penultimate episodes after Bruce Springsteen songs, "Green Arrow and the Canaries" was originally meant to be titled "Living in the Future," but the needs of the network had to trump that particular tradition. Ah, well. At least earlier in the season, Cassidy's directorial debut ("Leap of Faith") shared a title with a Springsteen tune.

STAR CITY 2040 – It’s the year 2040 in Star City and Mia Queen (Katherine McNamara) has everything she could have ever wanted. However, when Laurel (Katie Cassidy) and Dinah (Juliana Harkavy) suddenly show up in her life again, things take a shocking turn and her perfect world is upended. Laurel and Dinah are tracking a kidnapping victim with direct ties to Mia and they need her help. Knowing it will change everything, Mia can’t help but be a hero and she, Laurel and Dinah suit up once again to save the city. Tara Miele directed the episode written by Beth Schwartz & Marc Guggenheim & Jill Blankenship & Oscar Balderrama.

 

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WHY THE CW’S CANARIES SPIN-OFF COULD MARK THE ARROWVERSE'S NEXT STAGE
Trent Moore   Jan. 7, 2020
https://www.syfy.com/syfywire/why-the-cw-future-arrow-canaries-spin-off-is-arrowverse-future 

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Much as Arrow laid the groundwork for an entire world of superhero shows that have run for almost a decade, could the show's future-set spinoff do the same for the next generation of The CW's superheroes?
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The superhero genre is pretty much carrying the network these days, and that trend is showing no signs of slowing down. If the past several years is any indication, super-shows will remain a stalwart of The CW's line-up for years to come.
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But there are only so many stories to mine in this world (and this era) as you keep spinning it further and further out across years and years and shows and shows. Especially when you're talking about 22-episode seasons of a half-dozen shows. You churn through ideas, stories, and settings like kindling. ...

Not to say the Arrowverse isn't exactly getting long in the tooth just yet, but it's reaching a critical juncture where some evolution, and revolution, is necessary to keep it relevant.

So how could Green Arrow & the Canaries pave a new way forward?

Jumping ahead to 2040 sets the world free of shows upon shows, and seasons upon seasons, of canon and continuity. A lot can change in two decades, and that's more than enough time to leave things so fuzzy as not to interfere with the latest world-ending baddie or speedster attack happening back in the present day. And if you're worried it'll hurt the stakes of the present day by showing a future exists at all? Then you don't know much about comics, or comic book shows. These worlds were never going to end (at least not for good), and if anything, a story set in the future of that world offers up a fascinating peek at the eventual ending without actually spoiling it. Win-win.

Jumping a corner of the Arrowverse to 2040 opens up a fresh slate for new stories, new characters, new sci-fi MacGuffins, and new adventures we can't even imagine here in lowly 2020. It allows The CW, and fans, to have their cake and eat it too — we get the present-day adventures, and a new generation of heroes, all on the same prime-time schedule. We get to see that the heroism of the heroes we know and love isn't in vain and that once they've retired or moved on years from now, they'll inspire future heroes to take their place.
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Arrow is a known commodity for fans, and for The CW. But following Mia under the hood is an opportunity to tell those beloved themes in a new way within a new setting. It also frees the creative team up a bit from the comic canon, allowing them to play into the old stories where it makes sense — and create something new and exciting when it doesn't.
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Put simply: The Arrowverse needs a jolt if it's going to remain a juggernaut in the years to come, and telling the story of the 2040 DC Universe could be just the way to do it. Here's to the future.

Edited by tv echo

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So it seems like Mia is definitely getting a new backstory, and possibly a new personality for the series. Although I don't expect her to change completely it does give them a good excuse for at least a soft reboot of the character which happens a lot with spin offs anyway. The might have fun with the contrast of a young 20s rich girl with her "badass" nocturnal vigilantism like Oliver's early fake playboy persona or if they're feeling ambitious, early Buffy. 

Unless Oliver did get the chance to be there with his family (unlikely) I hope the memories she has of him in the pre Crisis timeline come back as it would be said for both of them and William if they no longer existed. And also that she's still trained from a young age by Nyssa or remembers her skills, I'd rather not have an Insta!Green Arrow the way we had Insta!Canary and so many others on these shows or that she's trained by Siren and Dinah. 

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I don’t see how Dinah and Laurel could train Mia to be the new Green Arrow; neither of them is particularly proficient with a bow. They use staves and kali sticks and metahuman powers.

Making Nyssa her instructor since childhood makes a ton more sense because the League were proficient archers and have way more advanced martial arts techniques than any Canary we’ve seen not named Sara Lance. Thematically it also connects with Ollie’s training where his final development before season one was learning from Nissa’s sister and thus explaining why Mia’s fighting style is similar to her father’s.

It also looks, surprisingly, like there’s not going to be time travel involved for Dinah and Laurel turning up in Mia’s new life so either they’ve got really good plastic surgeons in the future (both would be in their mid-50s) or the shots we saw without the older makeup was them in a flashback and makes me wonder if the spin-off is going to be as flashback heavy as the early seasons of Arrow were (just not with Mia, William or Connor).

The big question is who is this kidnapped person tied to Mia.

If Diggle carries through on Ollie’s request to basically ensure that William go to live with Felicity and Mia (in which case instead of founding his own company William might be CEO of Smoaktech in the re-booted timeline) then I can’t see him being distant enough for Dinah and Laurel to realize he’s been kidnapped before Mia would.

Oliver (something else) and Felicity (actress unavailable) are also clearly out.

It probably also wouldn’t be anyone she’s currently dating for the same reason as it probably isn’t William.

So I’m with three prospects;

First, she’s not involved with Connor in the new timeline but he’s still Diggle’s adopted son and the Diggles stayed in closer touch with Felicity in the rebooted timeline.

Second, as above, but it’s a John Jr. who never joined the Deathstroke gang who’s been kidnapped (for irony points, by whoever leads the Deathstrokes now).

Third, the Canary Network has been working with Nyssa and so it’s Mia’s old mentor who’s been taken (someone she’s close to but not in regular contact with).

One final random thought on the new future though; Galaxy One still presumably got a hold of Felicity’s Archer program and try to weaponize it.

I wonder if something like season seven still happened in a slightly different way (i.e. William and Mia started out on the quest to find the older heroes together and without the resentment towards Oliver and Felicity) so the reference to Mia going back into action is that a proto-FTA still stopped Archer, but then she went back to living her pre-adventure life until the Canaries turn up again.

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^^^ Maybe the kidnapped person is an adult Sara Diggle who's no longer erased and now a member of the Canary Network. And maybe this Sara will be Mia's friend and a regular on the spinoff.

Edited by tv echo
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Interview: Caity Lotz Talks the Crisis on Infinite Earths Finale and What It Means for Legends
By Jessica Mason  Jan 13th, 2020
https://www.themarysue.com/interview-caity-lotz-crisis-on-infinite-earths-legends/ 

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I hope Sara can stop by in 2040 and say hi if Green Arrow and The Canaries gets picked up.
Yeah, me too. I was talking to Katie [Cassidy] and Juliana [Harkavy] and Kat [McNamara] about that. I’ve definitely got to go over and hang out with them.

Edited by tv echo

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From Deadline's reporting of the Superman & Lois pickup news:

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With several DC series reaching maturity and the show that launched the CW universe, Arrow, in its final season, the network has stepped up its DC development efforts with two high-profile projects, Superman & Lois and an Arrow backdoor spinoff headlined by the show’s Katherine McNamara, Katie Cassidy and Juliana Harkavy reprising their roles.

It is unclear how the series pickup of Superman & Lois would impact the Arrowverse pilot ‘s chances. I had heard chatter that the network may go with one new DC series for next year but a final decision will be made after the network executives review all their pilots.

 

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It's not great for this pilot's chances that they've picked up the Superman pilot before they've even shot it and this is a week away from airing and there's "maybe" but no "the network really likes it" information to go on. It could be the "Wayward Sisters" of the Arrowverse.

However they haven't actually announced an Arrowverse spin off that hasn't been picked up yet. Once they'd got a Superman TV show set up after talking about it for two years if only one show was on the cards there was no chance it wouldn't have gone to series. GA and TC was always more of a wild card in terms of "who's actually the audience" but I still think it's quite likely unless the pilot is utterly rubbish. Hopefully in that case it fits in ok with the rest of S8.

I certainly wouldn't be heartbroken at all if Oliver's legacy ends with  Arrow but surprised after all the set up.

Edited by Featherhat

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38 minutes ago, Featherhat said:

However they haven't actually announced an Arrowverse spin off that hasn't been picked up yet. Once they'd got a Superman TV show set up after talking about it for two years if only one show was on the cards there was no chance it wouldn't have gone to series.

I wonder if they're waiting to see the ratings for the backdoor pilot before deciding, or just waiting for it to air before announcing.

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16 minutes ago, shantown said:

I wonder if they're waiting to see the ratings for the backdoor pilot before deciding, or just waiting for it to air before announcing.

I can't think it has anything to do with the ratings. Arrow has been in the "ok by CW standards" doldrums for a while and the FINAL SEASON hasn't improved it. It's going to need a whole new push to get off the ground.

That said they've just renewed anything that even has a .01 and a decent other revenue stream, partly due to the threat of strike. 

I still think it's more likely than not to be ordered but the "no word about it" during the timeframe they have to big it up is just oddly reminiscent of MP's lukewarm praise of WS before it wasn't picked up. Though there are a ton more pieces in play. 

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53 minutes ago, shantown said:

I wonder if they're waiting to see the ratings for the backdoor pilot before deciding, or just waiting for it to air before announcing.

I think they're just waiting until after the backdoor pilot airs. But on the other hand, they could have waited and made all the series pickup announcements at once, so it's still iffy.

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I hate to hope it, because I really like Kat McNamara and think they had a really great set up with Mia/William/JJ/Connor, but I hope this doesn’t get picked up. My dislike of Laurel and Dinah outweighs any excitement I have for Future Team Arrow. 

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1 hour ago, shantown said:

I wonder if they're waiting to see the ratings for the backdoor pilot before deciding, or just waiting for it to air before announcing.

I bet it's reaction to the events of the episode more than the actual ratings. The CW doesn't care about traditional ratings and they aren't going to start now. They're going to base the decision on things like social media reaction to characters and stories. For example, now that Sara Diggle has been restored they may decide to bring her on as a regular. Hell they may change the show's title since the reaction to that is mixed. I do think they'll announce that it's been picked up but they want to make sure they know what works and what doesn't just in case they need to make any changes to the announcement.

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I agree with your post. Obviously the network execs have had a chance to watch the backdoor pilot and the CW doesn't care that much about ratings. So the only reason to wait is because they want to find out what viewers think of the backdoor pilot.

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I think the lack of announcement might be a case of not tainting the jury pool (i.e. social media) so to speak and the announcement will come later next week once it’s settled on a consensus reaction.

The problem for them is I think the ship has already sailed on the jury and whoever is pushing the two Canaries over there is going to be rather disappointed because I think they’re going to go over like the lead balloons they are and the reaction will settle on “great series if you dumped at least one of those two.”

Then the question is whether whoever wants the Canary actresses would be spiteful enough to kill the whole thing if those two fail to win any support and all the interest is in FTA.

Personally, just “Green Arrow” would be a much stronger title even if the two Canaries were part of the show... make it clear that this is Mia’s show and the other two are just there as support and the whole thing gets more palatable.

Including Sara Diggle as Mia’s friend/practically family and a prominent role for William in the series would also help a lot with the next generation feel. The family vibe with William was far and away the best part of the FF’s... and expanding that to include a next gen Diggle who wasn’t a villain in an AU would be a move in the right direction.

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Re-posting from Arrow forum...

One of my concerns about this spinoff is that they picked three characters who are too similar - tough, kinda surly, and humorless.  It's almost like Arrow before Felicity joined the team, except Diggle was much better than Dinah or Laurel.

That's why I was hoping for a FTA spinoff instead. William would add humor (also, Ben Lewis is a delight). Connor would add level-headedness. Both would balance out Mia. Add in Sara Diggle and stir for a winning recipe.

Edited by tv echo
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2 hours ago, tv echo said:

That's why I was hoping for a FTA spinoff instead. William would add humor (also, Ben Lewis is a delight). Connor would add level-headedness. Both would balance out Mia. Add in Sara Diggle and stir for a winning recipe.

Those characters could still be (and probably will be) part of the regular cast.

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7 hours ago, Trini said:

Those characters could still be (and probably will be) part of the regular cast.

Well, they (William and Connor anyway) are going to be in the backdoor pilot, but the series itself is still an open question, but the Arrowverse has been pretty formulaic in terms of team members and I don’t see a reason for them to change now and none of them have had less than five regulars (with the first half of Arrow season one being the only time those on the actual team counted less than three).

Quirky tech support (William) and love interest (Connor) are two roles I don’t see Dinah or Laurel being able to credibly fill.

Also worth noting is that, because of the reset, they could set up this version of Mia to not be as surly or humorless, but the two Canaries being so much alike is definitely an issue... which is why agree with the idea that they’re planning on killing one of the two off at either mid-season or the s1 finale for the dramas (and if we’re REALLY lucky... one or both bites it in 1x01 because of internet feedback*).

*William: Well, look who's here! 
Mia: Hi, Laurel. You look like you've got something to say. Do you? 
Laurel: Yes, I certainly do! I have to go now. My Earth needs me. 
[NOTE - Laurel died on her way back to her home Earth.]

 

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10 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

Quirky tech support (William) and love interest (Connor) are two roles I don’t see Dinah or Laurel being able to credibly fill.

Yeah, that and the show needs men, no matter how "girl power" they want to push it, and it's not like they can stay in 2040 and pretend William isn't a factor for their main character. Or at least that's what I'm holding on to XD. That and KM's comments about William being the tech guy going forward.

 

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'Crisis on Infinite Earths': Where Was Reverse-Flash? And Iris? Who Is Laurel Now? And More Burning Qs Answered
By Matt Webb Mitovich / January 15 2020, 1
https://tvline.com/2020/01/15/crisis-on-infinite-earths-burning-questions-answered-iris-missing-reverse-flash/ 

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LEX LUTHOR REGARDED AS NOT JUST A GOOD GUY BUT ‘THE BEST GUY’ IS A FUN THING FOR SUPERGIRL TO PLAY WITH. WILL WE SEE OTHER RIPPLE EFFECTS? IS CONNOR STILL ADOPTED BY JOHN AND LYLA, WILL WE SEE BABY SARA IN 2020…?
[MARC GUGGENHEIM:] “You won’t see Baby Sara in [Arrow] Episode 809 [airing Jan. 21], but we have absolutely talked about how if that [Green Arrow and the Canaries] backdoor pilot goes to series, what does Adult Baby Sara look like — including what we are going to refer to her as. [Laughs]"

 

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On 1/13/2020 at 10:23 PM, Starfish35 said:

Pics for the spinoff episode, including pics of a character named “Bianca Bertinelli”!!   Legit, or a placeholder for, say, Sara Diggle?

Didn't Oliver have a love interest with that last name in season 1 of Arrow? Maybe he has another child that he never knew about.

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5 hours ago, paulvdb said:

Didn't Oliver have a love interest with that last name in season 1 of Arrow? Maybe he has another child that he never knew about.

You're thinking of Helena Bertinelli but there's no way she and Oliver are Bianca's parents. If we assume that Helena is her mother, then her father has to be mixed race or African-American. My question is if she really is Bianca Bertinelli or not. I can easily see Bianca being a false name for the press and she's really Sara Diggle, like how we were told Dinah and Mia were Tina and Maya before their names were revealed in the actual episodes.

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I just posted an IBT article in the Arrow spoilers thread - it sounds like the writer saw an 809 (backdoor pilot) advance screener. If so, she spoils the following about Bianca...

https://www.ibtimes.com/green-arrow-canaries-tv-show-7-facts-about-arrow-spinoff-2905425

Spoiler

Huntress’ Daughter: Helena Bertinelli/The Huntress is not in the spinoff pilot, but her daughter Bianca Bertinelli (Raigan Harris) appears. She plays a big part in the episode.

 

Edited by tv echo
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1 hour ago, scarynikki12 said:

You're thinking of Helena Bertinelli but there's no way she and Oliver are Bianca's parents. If we assume that Helena is her mother, then her father has to be mixed race or African-American.

I usually try to stay as spoiler-free as possible so I hadn't looked at the photos. All I knew was the character's name from your post. So I guess the photos show that she can't be Oliver and Helena's daughter. I guess she could be Helena's daughter with another father. Or maybe you were right about her being Sara Diggle. I'll find out soon enough.

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I’m officially looking forward to this show.

The backdoor pilot was fantastic for Dinah. Her new personality works, she’s got her cry back, there’s a solid mystery around how she got to 2040, she’s still the founder of the Canary Network, and they gave her a ton of comic Black Canary connections. She still sucks at investigating but that doesn’t bother me. 

The episode sucked for Black Siren who is still an ass. I still expect Dinah to be the season 1 death but I’m now hoping it will be Siren. That or they make her the series Big Bad since she enjoys being awful to everyone. Whatever they do with the character she needs to stop mentioning her history with Oliver. First because her history with Mia’s Oliver was that they hated each other. Second because the history she keeps referencing is with Oliver’s doppelgänger so there’s literally no reason for her to say shit like “you know I dated your dad right?” I did enjoy learning that E2 Oliver cheated on her with her sister too, driving home that Oliver and all his doppelgängers have two things in common: the same face and the fact that they don’t want to end up with Dinah Laurel Lance. If Siren is to stick around then her love interest will have to be someone else and she can finally move on. 

I hope the series has way more of Future Team Arrow. We got a bunch of Mia and a decent amount of JJ but I want more William, Zoe, and Bronze Kitten. Plus some Sara Diggle to make things complete. 

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I think that there's one simple thing that would get me to root for the pickup, should there be a pickup: just announce Ben Lewis as a series regular and make it clear that he'll have a big role. I know, with how the backdoor pilot ended, that it's clear that he'll be part of the series in some capacity, but just some confirmation and I'd be satisfied. 

Otherwise, I see what the critics are saying about the backdoor pilot. I am more interested than I was before. Not quite enough, but maybe that's also because I'm not convinced it's being picked up. 

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I don't know, from the amount of press, and the way the cast have talked about it, it sounds to me like it already picked up, or are close to it; but haven't announced it yet.

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9 hours ago, scarynikki12 said:

The episode sucked for Black Siren who is still an ass. I still expect Dinah to be the season 1 death but I’m now hoping it will be Siren. That or they make her the series Big Bad since she enjoys being awful to everyone. Whatever they do with the character she needs to stop mentioning her history with Oliver. First because her history with Mia’s Oliver was that they hated each other. Second because the history she keeps referencing is with Oliver’s doppelgänger so there’s literally no reason for her to say shit like “you know I dated your dad right?” I did enjoy learning that E2 Oliver cheated on her with her sister too, driving home that Oliver and all his doppelgängers have two things in common: the same face and the fact that they don’t want to end up with Dinah Laurel Lance. If Siren is to stick around then her love interest will have to be someone else and she can finally move on. 

Yep. I don’t think I could watch an entire season of the Laurel we got in this episode if the series is picked up, even if there’s more FTA than in the pilot. 

But I doubt they’ll bring in a love interest for her because it doesn’t seem like the Arrowverse is interested in giving any Laurel a love life other than unrequited feelings for an Oliver. 

And I definitely agree about the potential death. As soon as I found myself liking Dinah — especially compared to Laurel — I started thinking her days are numbered. 

But wouldn’t it be something if all that “Laurel is a hero” talk (also something I really couldn’t put up with for even one more episode, let alone a series) is really them trying to fool us so they can reveal her as the Big Bad and she was the one to give JJ his memories back? It’ll never happen, but that could actually be a good story. This Laurel never should’ve been working for anyone, especially since no one had a dampener until Diaz at the end of S6. 

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25 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

But I doubt they’ll bring in a love interest for her because it doesn’t seem like the Arrowverse is interested in giving any Laurel a love life other than unrequited feelings for an Oliver. 

They might, just because with Laurel now being a main lead again, they can't just have her fight and say snarky things. She'll need character development of her own, which means interacting with more people, which could include a love interest.

Similarly to Dinah, who will likely get her own love interest so she's not just singing at her bar and fighting crime at night.

7 hours ago, Trini said:

I don't know, from the amount of press, and the way the cast have talked about it, it sounds to me like it already picked up, or are close to it; but haven't announced it yet.

It could definitely be on its way to a pickup. I don't necessarily get the feeling, especially after the quick pickup on Superman and Lois. Maybe my hesitation is that they might not want two new Arrowverse shows, but I'm not saying that I'm right at all. My feelings could be wrong. 

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25 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

It could definitely be on its way to a pickup. I don't necessarily get the feeling, especially after the quick pickup on Superman and Lois. Maybe my hesitation is that they might not want two new Arrowverse shows, but I'm not saying that I'm right at all. My feelings could be wrong. 

Three DC shows, you mean! They picked up Superman and Lois and have to air Stargirl both in 2020 (Stargirl for spring, Superman and Lois for Fall, I think). If they do pick up this, I would wonder if it just wouldn't air until 2021 instead.

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2 hours ago, insomniadreams88 said:

But I doubt they’ll bring in a love interest for her because it doesn’t seem like the Arrowverse is interested in giving any Laurel a love life other than unrequited feelings for an Oliver. 

If they're smart (cue laugh) they would use this to the character's advantage. They've made it clear that Laurel and the doppelgangers we've met have been hung up on their Earth's Oliver Queen. Even when he's treated them like shit they still pine. So a good source of character development for Siren is to be given a story where she meets someone and finally realizes that, no, Oliver Queen wasn't the love of her life and it's time to let go of that dream and move on. Similar to how they were able to fool us earlier this season by bringing in Lyla to seemingly assist in the latest round of "Laurel/Laurel's doppelganger does her own thing while everyone else is focused on the main story" only to subvert what we'd come to expect by revealing that Lyla was really there to meet with The Monitor undetected. Laid out correctly a story about letting Oliver go and moving on with her life could be great for Siren. She'd even get to be as snarky and rude as she wanted since it would be part of the process.

2 hours ago, insomniadreams88 said:

And I definitely agree about the potential death. As soon as I found myself liking Dinah — especially compared to Laurel — I started thinking her days are numbered. 

I so hope I'm wrong and it's someone else or no one at all. The only thing that I can point to that may keep Dinah safe is that she's obviously the preferred Black Canary for the Arrowverse. They could have contrived a way to resurrect Laurel when they got the order to have a Black Canary on Arrow but instead left her dead and brought in Dinah Drake. She had a Canary Cry from jump, Harkavy can do basic stunts (throw a punch, wave around the staff), and the transition between her and her stunt double is pretty seamless. They also made a point of having her in the flash forwards which shows that she was among those who would have remained if Arrow had continued with Emiko. Also, no matter how close Harkavy and Cassidy are the network wouldn't have signed her to the spinoff if they didn't want her there. They also gave her a ton of comic Black Canary connections in just this episode and had the Canary Network begin with her. The problem is that Harkavy doesn't have her own large and vocal section of the audience who want her first and foremost so she's expendable in that way. I really hope I'm wrong but I'm expecting the death to be her.

2 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

Maybe my hesitation is that they might not want two new Arrowverse shows, but I'm not saying that I'm right at all. My feelings could be wrong. 

I think when/if they pick this show up they give it a midseason premiere like they did with LOT and Black Lightning. A shorter run to start things off means fewer breaks and the audience can really get into the story. I would have it be a spring series in general and they can even use the annual crossover (assuming it continues) as an Episode 0 like LOT did with Crisis. The network won't benefit if every night has an Arrowverse show for the whole year so they'll need to start splitting them up. Maybe the network run of Stargirl will prove to be successful and they'll pair it with this show.

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2 hours ago, way2interested said:

Three DC shows, you mean! They picked up Superman and Lois and have to air Stargirl both in 2020 (Stargirl for spring, Superman and Lois for Fall, I think). If they do pick up this, I would wonder if it just wouldn't air until 2021 instead.

Right! I keep forgetting about Stargirl, mostly because it's technically a DC streaming show, but it DOES count. 

That's why I think that this spinoff might not get picked up. I feel like the network doesn't necessarily want 50% of their shows to be DC-verse. The only way they pick up this spinoff, in my mind, is if they're planning to cancel two of their Arrowverse shows next season (maybe Supergirl, potentially The Flash is GG doesn't want to do it anymore, maybe Legends). 

But also, it depends if the network can see the longevity with this series, hence the backdoor pilot. And that'll be a huge deciding factor whether or not they take the chance. 

Right now, I see short-term that the series could work out (having the backdoor pilot's cliffhanger with a kidnapped William AND JJ having his memories as Deathstroke returned; them kidnapping William did pique my interest because I don't want anything to happen to my favourite new character), but long-term? I'm still conflicted as to whether the network would take the chance on the series. But another factor is audience reaction and right now, it seems lukewarm. People are interested, but I don't see a majority actively rooting for it. 

I'd be completely fine with it being picked up. I'd also be fine if the network passed on it (although the William cliffhanger would disappoint me with not knowing how that turns out). 

The only solution that I think could work is if the series was picked up, but only as a mini-series. Have it be 13 episodes, plan out a one season arc. I can see how this series would work short-term, but I have a hard time picturing a three or four season story. Not that it couldn't happen...but I also don't think that it should. But I don't think The CW would go this route.

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We already know that Stargirl will only be a 13 episode season so it wont take up an entire season and I wouldnt be surprised if they air it sometime in July/August. That's a plus in GA&tC side of getting picked up. Reviews have also been decent.

If they do, they should probably fine tune some things, have the first season focus on Star City before letting them spread their wings and go on various missions outside of Star City. All 3 characters still have so much room for development  (which is a bit of a shame after 2 of them been on Arrow for 4 seasons) and I liked their Halliwell dynamic. 

3 hours ago, insomniadreams88 said:

Yep. I don’t think I could watch an entire season of the Laurel we got in this episode if the series is picked up, even if there’s more FTA than in the pilot. 

But I doubt they’ll bring in a love interest for her because it doesn’t seem like the Arrowverse is interested in giving any Laurel a love life other than unrequited feelings for an Oliver. 

With her being a lead character, as said previously...they'd have to put some effort into her again, and a love interest definitely helps her flesh out a little bit more and explores a new aspect of the character. 

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11 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

We already know that Stargirl will only be a 13 episode season so it wont take up an entire season and I wouldnt be surprised if they air it sometime in July/August. That's a plus in GA&tC side of getting picked up. Reviews have also been decent.

Stargirl is coming out in Q2, so that means more likely April or May, like LoT 4b did. Maybe if Stargirl is just looking like a limited one-time thing (like Swamp Thing ended up being with the abrupt cancellation), then they might be figuring just stick this in to this same Stargirl spot just a year later.

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21 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

Ratings: 0.921/0.3. Good numbers for the season but of course it was also a post-crossover but still bested every other returning DC show this week.

 

Yeah, there doesn't seem to be much - if any - crossover bump this season. (I don't think their splitting the crossover experiment paid off. (I think exceptions can be made for Batwoman and Supergirl who were up against football.))

I think a lot of people are curious about how Arrow will end; but I also find it interesting that the female-centered episode that did not feature most of the main cast - including the lead - is the highest for the season so far.

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Honestly those aren't bad ratings for Arrow this season, especially as it was widely known as a backdoor pilot without finding out anything extra about Oliver. Though obviously they're just a small fraction of how the CW and WB make their money on this franchise it can't hurt. 

 I have no idea if it's going to be picked up and I was saying it was probably already basically pencilled into the schedule when it was first announced. If they were very enthusiastic it would have been done together with L&C/Walker. Stargirl might be the tipping point of too many superhero shows, it might make no difference due to potentially being a 1 off or just summer or they might be in talks to move it over permanently for a S2. If it does I'm definitely thinking mid season 2021, maybe hoping the crossover involvement gives it a boost. 

I don't know if the perceived two very different halves of the fandom each liking their own bit makes a difference or if there are already BTS tensions as rumoured.

In general the reaction seems a little more towards the positive side with some caveats. There are a few people now clamouring for it and others more interested than they were as well as those who hate or felt completely underwhelmed by it. 

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