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scarynikki12

Batwoman Speculation Without Spoilers

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In the episode 3 thread the question of if Batwoman can use Batman came up. My more detailed answer incorporates a low key theory I have so I'm bringing it here.

Historically, Warner Bros has a tight leash when it comes to Batman on tv. The character, Gotham, his Rogues, and his allies collectively have made the studio a ton of money from the movies so they've been hesitant to let the Batverse stray too far from that cash cow. Obviously they're not as strict as they once were as shows like Gotham, Titans, and Pennyworth exist but they still come with strict guidelines.

Gotham, for example, was never allowed to call Bruce Batman, Jerome/Jeremiah Joker, or Barbara Gordon Batgirl (she was a little kid but still). Selina was called Cat but I don't remember her being called Catwoman. Bruce, Selina, and Jerome/Jeremiah each resembled their comic counterparts in look and behavior but they weren't allowed to use the names. Bruce spent most of the finale just offscreen and we got one look at him in the cowl and that was it. Gotham was a show about Bruce and the other Batverse characters evolution to their comic counterparts and they still had these strict rules to follow.

I haven't seen Pennyworth yet but it follows a much younger Alfred rather than the version who helps Bats at the height of his story. I wait to binge watch Titans so I'm purposefully behind on that show. I now Bruce has appeared but I haven't heard anything about him suiting up.

Which brings me back to Batwoman. Back when she was announced as joining the Arrowverse via the Elseworlds crossover I speculated that Berlanti and the other producers probably lobbied hard behind the scenes to get Batman, WB said no, and Kate was offered up as a compromise (whether from them or WB I don't have a clue). Which is fine with me, cause she's long overdue for the kind of attention that the rest of the Bat family gets, but I think that speaks to the willingness to have more Batman references in the show. We haven't seen the big characters, like Bruce, Alfred, Lucius Fox, Joker, Selina, Batgirl, Nightwing, or Commissioner Gordon, but there are a lot of Batman characters outside of the ones most people know and I wouldn't be surprised if WB lets them out to play. I, personally, would love to see an Arrowverse take on Condiment King. On the one hand, he's absurd as he uses weaponized ketchup and mustard. On the other, such a character can be easily turned into someone truly scary about him poisoning people en masse. It just depends on the approach.

Supergirl wasn't allowed to do more than reference Clark and Superman in their first season but he showed up bright and eager to help in their second. I wouldn't be surprised to see Bruce at some point, as I have to believe they're working towards his return to Gotham (even if it ends up being temporary), but I would be shocked if he wears the cowl.

A low key theory I have is that WB will let the show bring in lesser known Bat family members like Helena Wayne, Tim Drake, or that little shit Damien. Which is fine cause I like Helena and Tim, and, while I hate Damien in general, I do enjoy when he's in annoying little brother mode opposite Dick, Jason, and Tim so I could see him having the same dynamic with Kate. Not saying this will happen but I definitely think Kate will get her own Bat family and I don't think they want to stop at Luke, Mary, Sophie, and maybe Alice.

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49 minutes ago, scarynikki12 said:

In the episode 3 thread the question of if Batwoman can use Batman came up. My more detailed answer incorporates a low key theory I have so I'm bringing it here.

Historically, Warner Bros has a tight leash when it comes to Batman on tv. The character, Gotham, his Rogues, and his allies collectively have made the studio a ton of money from the movies so they've been hesitant to let the Batverse stray too far from that cash cow. Obviously they're not as strict as they once were as shows like Gotham, Titans, and Pennyworth exist but they still come with strict guidelines.

Gotham, for example, was never allowed to call Bruce Batman, Jerome/Jeremiah Joker, or Barbara Gordon Batgirl (she was a little kid but still). Selina was called Cat but I don't remember her being called Catwoman. Bruce, Selina, and Jerome/Jeremiah each resembled their comic counterparts in look and behavior but they weren't allowed to use the names. Bruce spent most of the finale just offscreen and we got one look at him in the cowl and that was it. Gotham was a show about Bruce and the other Batverse characters evolution to their comic counterparts and they still had these strict rules to follow.

I haven't seen Pennyworth yet but it follows a much younger Alfred rather than the version who helps Bats at the height of his story. I wait to binge watch Titans so I'm purposefully behind on that show. I now Bruce has appeared but I haven't heard anything about him suiting up.

Which brings me back to Batwoman. Back when she was announced as joining the Arrowverse via the Elseworlds crossover I speculated that Berlanti and the other producers probably lobbied hard behind the scenes to get Batman, WB said no, and Kate was offered up as a compromise (whether from them or WB I don't have a clue). Which is fine with me, cause she's long overdue for the kind of attention that the rest of the Bat family gets, but I think that speaks to the willingness to have more Batman references in the show. We haven't seen the big characters, like Bruce, Alfred, Lucius Fox, Joker, Selina, Batgirl, Nightwing, or Commissioner Gordon, but there are a lot of Batman characters outside of the ones most people know and I wouldn't be surprised if WB lets them out to play. I, personally, would love to see an Arrowverse take on Condiment King. On the one hand, he's absurd as he uses weaponized ketchup and mustard. On the other, such a character can be easily turned into someone truly scary about him poisoning people en masse. It just depends on the approach.

Supergirl wasn't allowed to do more than reference Clark and Superman in their first season but he showed up bright and eager to help in their second. I wouldn't be surprised to see Bruce at some point, as I have to believe they're working towards his return to Gotham (even if it ends up being temporary), but I would be shocked if he wears the cowl.

A low key theory I have is that WB will let the show bring in lesser known Bat family members like Helena Wayne, Tim Drake, or that little shit Damien. Which is fine cause I like Helena and Tim, and, while I hate Damien in general, I do enjoy when he's in annoying little brother mode opposite Dick, Jason, and Tim so I could see him having the same dynamic with Kate. Not saying this will happen but I could definitely think Kate will get her own Bat family and I don't think they want to stop at Luke, Mary, Sophie, and maybe Alice.

Remember back when SV aired? The reason why Clark’s crest was “8” because they couldn’t use the “S” in the early days. Like Clark and Lois couldn’t kiss unless some kind of magic or disguise was involved. But of course by S9, they were allowed to kiss as themselves. And “Superman Returns” played a role in what TPTB couldn’t do doing whatever season that was. Films is why Deathstroke had to leave Arrow. We’ll see as the series goes on if Bruce will appear. It probably would be like a 2 episode arc at most. But that’s enough to answer questions and close that up. 

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Since Dick and Jason are on Titans. I think they'd only get to use Tim or Damian. I think DC is  allowing the use of Bruce Wayne on tv shows and I think even then as long as it's either a young version (Gotham) or an older version (Titans). As for Batman he can only be seen for a minute or two on screen. 

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Who learns that Kate is Batwoman next?

Luke knows, Alice knows;

Sophie, and Tommy Elliot probably have strong suspicions, but don't know for sure; it would make sense for them to be next.

Mary seems like the next logical choice; but they might want to draw it out, especially if Sophie learns first. Jacob and Catherine are probably going to be the last to find out.

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2 hours ago, Trini said:

Sophie, and Tommy Elliot probably have strong suspicions, but don't know for sure; it would make sense for them to be next.

I hope it isn't Sophie. She would just tattle.

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For anyone wondering about the timeline in relations to the other DC shows: according to the showrunner, the show is caught up to the elseworlds crossover:

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32 minutes ago, Trini said:

For anyone wondering about the timeline in relations to the other DC shows: according to the showrunner, the show is caught up to the elseworlds crossover:

That seems rather quick? I thought she was more established by Elseworlds? 

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On 10/27/2019 at 6:40 PM, Trini said:

Who learns that Kate is Batwoman next?

Luke knows, Alice knows;

...

Now Mouse and Sophie know; and from the 1.06 promo a fifth person knows. I think that's enough, for now at least.

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With the news of Ruby Rose leaving and the role of Kate/Batwoman being recast, so many questions!

How sudden was this decision? Did the producer maybe have any idea that RR might be leaving, and would the finale have had a plot point that would make a casting change easier? Or were they also caught off guard? The scripts are written weeks ahead of filming. Maybe there isn't an easy way to make the transition.

Will the new actress have to redo certain scenes?

Since filming was interrupted, I don't think they can really work the recast into the plot. (Like, maybe Kate's face gets injured and it's acknowledged in the story that she looks different afterwards.) They'll have to pretend nothing has changed - that's going to be awkward.

So that will be at least two characters with new faces next season.

And I do wonder if the recasting will have an effect on Kate's relationships in the show. Say, if the new actress has better chemistry with certain actors, they lean into those relationships more when it might not have been the original plan.

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I know the producers say that they want to recast, but...

Here's my solution:  Bring back Astrophysicist!Beth (say, from Hell) and have her take up the Batwoman cowl after Kate Kane is killed by Alice!Beth.  Make the second season Bat!Beth vs. Alice!Beth, with Alice!Beth killed off for good by the end of the season.  Also, for production logistic reasons, they could give Alice!Beth a new face (essentially recasting her), though preferably not immediately (halfway through the season would make the most dramatic sense).

If the show needs another LGBTQ character, they could make Parker Torres a regular team member.

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2 hours ago, Trini said:

And I do wonder if the recasting will have an effect on Kate's relationships in the show. Say, if the new actress has better chemistry with certain actors, they lean into those relationships more when it might not have been the original plan.

I would say it's inevitable. Even if the writers keep writing the same and lett the actors find their own rhythm at first, eventually they'll start writing to the relationships that have the best dynamic and that might not be the ones RR had with them. OTOH They might work out even better. I felt RR and CJ had only really just started to develop something really good between them and NK was doing a lot of the heavy lifting in the Mary/Kate relationship though that was partly plot related because Kate was so closed off to her. Especially as the next actress will presumably be there for several seasons the relationships will also grow and change as they would have done with RR. 

Obviously making sure she had chemistry with Alice will be key and I liked RR and RS together but RS also does a lot of the heavy lifting with her balls out scenery chewing. 

I feel like MT/Sophie could end up in a vulnerable place and they'll want to make sure she has chemistry with nu!Kate but the OTP first love interest isn't a safe place in the Arrowverse in general and again OTOH I wasn't by any means overwhelmed with Sophie/Kate chemistry this season, though that was partly hating the backstory, so this could work out better if a recast has different energy with her. 

I do think this was since the hiatus and feels sudden but also that there were known issues that were causing friction from some of the reactions from people connected with the Arrowverse but we obviously have no way of really knowing. If they had started to plan for this with the finale I think we'll hear from CD about it soon to start smoothing things over. I'd rather they didn't make it an acid attack or Barry/LOT  time travel plot point or anything just acknowledge a "you look different, new hair, make up?" and get on with it. 

1 hour ago, Just Here said:

If the show needs another LGBTQ character, they could make Parker Torres a regular team member.

This show has made such a big deal about being the first lesbian superhero main character that I don't think having Parker on the team full time would cut it (especially as she even made a crack at "some random secondary character on my favourite show but never the lead"), that's exactly what the other shows have and actually much less than LOT. And they want a lead actress who is also LGBTQ. 

I think if it had been in the 2nd or 3rd season they'd have tried to go with a different character taking over but having Mary or a version of Beth take over is pretty convoluted to happen so soon in the show. Arrow had trouble with their rotating Canaries thing and thinking about replacing Oliver as the Arrow after 7 seasons with his best friend, his new team, his sister, his daughter etc. It's simpler although obviously not in any way desirable to recast, especially with a long hiatus to figure it out. 

Edited by Featherhat
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8 hours ago, Featherhat said:

If they had started to plan for this with the finale I think we'll hear from CD about it soon to start smoothing things over. I'd rather they didn't make it an acid attack or Barry/LOT  time travel plot point or anything just acknowledge a "you look different, new hair, make up?" and get on with it. 

I think that's what they'll have to do anyway since the pandemic halted everything, even if there was a plan that might have been in the real finale.

Unless - Ruby Rose comes back to finish up the season 1 arcs, but that seems extremely unlikely.

Man, WB/CW is going to have to do all new photos, promos and everything....

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One thing this show has going for it, despite this shake-up, is its strong supporting cast; and Alice (Skarsten) as its secondary lead.

I'm just thinking of The Flash and Supergirl in which the first seasons were carried by Grant Gustin and Melissa Benoist. I don't think RR was terrible, but she was a weak link.

Edited by Trini
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1 hour ago, opus said:

Hmm, now you got me thinking if they ever used the term or not. I thought they had, but......?

She was occasionally called Cat but never the full moniker.

I doubt we'll get the big sidekicks but I could see them letting the show play with Helena Wayne (pleeeeeeeeeeeease!), Stephanie Brown, or maybe Tim Drake. My greatest fear is that they'll be granted permission to use that little shit Damien which would suuuuuuuuuuck.

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Well, not Tim Drake; Titans just snagged him. But there are still so many Bat-family members they could use. I'm guessing it's more likely this show will take the female characters.

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