S02.E08: Jericho

[MarkHB]

Quote

Dick finally reveals the truth to the team and, in flashback, we learn the secret behind Deathstroke’s vendetta against the Titans. After the murder of Garth, Dick, Donna, Dawn and Hank befriend Jericho Wilson, Deathstroke’s son. Realizing that Slade’s devotion to his son might be Deathstroke’s only weakness, Dick is eager to use the information against his nemesis. But as the Titans’ friendship with Jericho grows, and he’s taken into the fold, Dick is forced to make a choice between loyalty and revenge.

[Sakura12]

I think we all knew that Dick didn't actually kill Jericho. Jericho died to save him. I do feel bad for the poor kid. They were using him. But now I'm more convinced that Jericho is jumped into his father's body which is probably why he went into retirement and Jericho was dormant until they both saw the Titans were back. I think Jericho jumped into Jason and now went to Gar and made him place those objects around the house. He's pissed that that other Titans used him as much as Dick did. 

Donna lost so much more because of Deathstroke, Garth and some of her people. Yet Dick is the only angry vengeful one. And she still offers Dick a place to stay after all that went down. The Amazon's must teach to be very forgiving. 

Also why are the women on this show never allowed to be as powerful as the men? Donna should have the same powers as Wonder Woman. Yet the two regular human men Hank and Dick are shown to be better than her. Even if she doesn't have the WW's powers she should've been training longer than Dick has since she looked to be six when Diana rescued her. They show her easily getting taken down by Deathstroke while regular human Robin gets to put a longer fight. They allow Conner to be Superman, but Donna can't be Wonder Woman. Don't even get me started on Dawn all she does talk softly and is the nurse. I will say at least Kory got to be a threat to Deathstroke. Raven has cool visuals and is only allowed to use her powers when they want that. 

[Jenniferbug]

Oof. That was a hard episode to watch. Poor sweet Jericho. 

I thought it was interesting that after the bonfire scene, it was Donna and Dick who were still ok using him. Not that they felt great about it, but they saw it as a means to an end to use a kid. I think that's very reflective of their upbringing under the tutelage of superhero/vigilantes. It was more Dawn and Hank who weren't trained to be weapons from a young age that saw issues with it, particularly Hank. 

[Sakura12]

1 hour ago, Jenniferbug said:

Oof. That was a hard episode to watch. Poor sweet Jericho. 

I thought it was interesting that after the bonfire scene, it was Donna and Dick who were still ok using him. Not that they felt great about it, but they saw it as a means to an end to use a kid. I think that's very reflective of their upbringing under the tutelage of superhero/vigilantes. It was more Dawn and Hank who weren't trained to be weapons from a young age that saw issues with it, particularly Hank. 

That's true. Dick and Donna were probably taught that everything is fair game in a battle. Use whatever you can to your advantage. That's probably why Donna wasn't as upset with Dick as Dawn and Hank. She knew what she was doing too. 

They were also raised in isolation from other kids, Donna probably being the only kid on a hidden island and Dick was raised by Batman who is also a loner. Then they became bff's with each other which would not have helped them to be regular kids. Hank and Dawn had regular lives until tragedy struck them as young adults. 

Also where was Rose in the flashback. Does she have a different mother, which means Deathstroke cheated on his wife. 

[phoenics]

After seeing that Dick didn't kill Jericho - I don't know why he's so scared of the Titans finding out - finding out WHAT exactly?  They know Jericho died - so ... 

And I also don't get why they're mad at Dick.  For what?  They all used Jericho.  And they all agreed to leave him be until they saw he had powers. Then Deathstroke nearly killed Donna.  It should've been all the Titans going after DS then - not just Dick.

Are they mad at Dick because Jericho got killed trying to stop his father from killing Dick?  Or because Dick followed Jericho?

The writing has major holes.

I don't understand why everything fell apart the way it did with all the blame being heaped on Dick.  The writing just didn't make a good case for why ... almost like the writers punked out and decided not to make Dick literally kill Jericho.

I could see why they broke up - but not why Dick is the bad guy to them.  They all used Jericho, didn't they?  And Dick was genuine with wanting Jericho to join them.  Is THAT why they all are mad at Dick?

Did I miss something?

[Sakura12]

Only Hank and Dawn were mad at Dick. They were the ones that didn't want to use Jericho to get to Deathstroke. Donna wanted to use his powers to help them. They were both raised as soliders so they are more willing to use whatever means necessary. 

I think Hank and Dawn were mad that Dick didn't cut ties with Jericho and brought him further into their team and then he died because of that. 

I do agree with how was this a secret, unless Dick told them a different story on how Jericho died. Which I guess could explain why they were so angry. 

[Cthulhudrew]

I really enjoy this show, but holy hell- now the flashbacks are having flashbacks.

[Cthulhudrew]

This was a really good episode, but I still feel like I thought I would a few episodes ago- it would have been better placed earlier in the season (maybe as the first episode of the season, and allowing the first episode to have been last season's finale, like it was originally intended). This gives so much more weight to the Deathstroke storyline that was missing previously; both as backdrop for the Titans and their current arc and woes, as well as providing a much needed depth of character for Slade Wilson.

And on that note, Esai Morales really kicked it out of the park this episode. I've been reading Priest's (sadly soon-to-be-over) Deathstroke over the last couple of years, and I can see elements of the familial storyline from that series in this portrayal. I really feel placing this so late in the season like this that they've undercut the pathos of the Deathstroke/Jericho/Dick story. I think the them of family, of loss, and redemption is a great fit for this season, but as good as most of these episodes have been, better plotting would have made it so much more meaningful, IMO.

[Cthulhudrew]

14 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

Also where was Rose in the flashback. Does she have a different mother, which means Deathstroke cheated on his wife. 

I assume that is the case; it is the situation in the comics, where Rose was a daughter Slade had with a Cambodian woman. He was either separated or divorced from Adeline at the time (I think; it's entirely possible he cheated, and/or that the status of when it happened changed during various reboots of the DCU. I know that at least in the current series, Adeline is still annoyed by it, to the point of even having a hit put out against Rose.)

Edited October 26, 2019 by Cthulhudrew

[MarkHB]

I'm wondering if any of you are on the same page I am: Jericho didn't die trying to block Deathstroke's killing blow against Dick, DS deliberately killed him as a weak link and left Dick to bear the guilt.

[jelaine]

12 hours ago, Cthulhudrew said:

On 10/25/2019 at 10:05 AM, Sakura12 said:

Also where was Rose in the flashback. Does she have a different mother, which means Deathstroke cheated on his wife. 

I assume that is the case; it is the situation in the comics, where Rose was a daughter Slade had with a Cambodian woman.

Okay, fine, but she's so upset that her brother was killed. Shouldn't she have had some kind of relationship with him to be this upset? Would she really be as upset as she is if he was only a name to her? Yeah, I get being sad that your half-brother whom you have never met died, but this. Doesn't track for me.

Also, how did she know about Jericho's record collection?

14 hours ago, phoenics said:

The writing has major holes.

This is the explanation I'm going with.

[Cthulhudrew]

1 hour ago, jelaine said:

Okay, fine, but she's so upset that her brother was killed. Shouldn't she have had some kind of relationship with him to be this upset? Would she really be as upset as she is if he was only a name to her? Yeah, I get being sad that your half-brother whom you have never met died, but this. Doesn't track for me.

Agreed. Hopefully there is some backstory we still haven't gotten. This episode would have us believe Adeline and Jericho moved away from Slade because of the hostage incident, and not because he had an illegitimate daughter (which would almost have had to be the case with the timeline in this series). And Jericho seemed so clueless about his dad's past, I'm not sure I see how him having known about a half-sister would have fit into that.

[BaggythePanther]

How convenient that Dawn is fluent in ASL, otherwise their whole plan would have fallen apart.

How did Dick get away from Deathstroke in the final fight? After DS accidentally stabs Jericho did DS just rush Jericho to the hospital and forget about Dick. 

On 10/26/2019 at 12:16 AM, Cthulhudrew said:

This was a really good episode, but I still feel like I thought I would a few episodes ago- it would have been better placed earlier in the season (maybe as the first episode of the season, and allowing the first episode to have been last season's finale, like it was originally intended). This gives so much more weight to the Deathstroke storyline that was missing previously; both as backdrop for the Titans and their current arc and woes, as well as providing a much needed depth of character for Slade Wilson.

I’ve said it before but it bears repeating, this show has horrible pacing. These flashbacks should have been integrated throughout the season, Arrow comparisons be damned. I think if they were revealing the backstory in bits and pieces they could have brought in parts of Jericho’s story earlier, rather than waiting for a bunch of things to fall into place so they can make a whole episode.

On 10/25/2019 at 9:42 PM, phoenics said:

I don't understand why everything fell apart the way it did with all the blame being heaped on Dick.  The writing just didn't make a good case for why ... almost like the writers punked out and decided not to make Dick literally kill Jericho.

Hank and Dawn had been losing patience for a while. I think the tipping point was when Dick followed Jericho to the meeting with DS and it got Jericho killed. There wasn’t a need for Dick to break his promise to Jericho and confront DS without any backup.

[Delphi]

I like this show,  I really do,  so much so that Jason was my costume inspiration this year.   But the pacing is awful.   I enjoy every episode,  but if they want things to move this slowly the seasons really need to be longer. 

[phoenics]

On 10/26/2019 at 3:27 PM, Cthulhudrew said:

Agreed. Hopefully there is some backstory we still haven't gotten.

OMG - noooooooo no more backstory or flashbacks!  This season has DROWNED in flashbacks that literally render Kory, Gar and Rachel irrelevant.  On a show called Titans.

I hate to track screentime - but the main cast of this show aside from Dick is really getting screwed.  Gar especially but still Kory.  And given Anna Diop's recent interview... I just don't have hope this season of much better.  I am mad I have to wait another year for that.  That is such BS.

I don't know WTF the writers thought they were doing - I really thought after that amazing episode when Kory came back and then the one after with Connor that the show would try to stay in the present and bring people together into the DS drama.  This just keeps the characters who aren't the OG Titans outside of the story and marooned. 

These entire flashback episodes feel like the writers are completely tone deaf to the strengths of their show.

Part of the issue is I finally started watching Doom Patrol and it's just ... SO much better written than this.

11 hours ago, BaggythePanther said:

Hank and Dawn had been losing patience for a while. I think the tipping point was when Dick followed Jericho to the meeting with DS and it got Jericho killed. There wasn’t a need for Dick to break his promise to Jericho and confront DS without any backup.

Except DS nearly killed Donna.  Things changed after that - and I really don't see how anyone could blame Dick for going off after DS after that.  He killed Garth and then nearly killed Donna (who is basically Dick's sister) - Hank and Dawn being mad at him for that is just forced.

It shouldn't have even been just Dick - Hank (especially Hank) and Dawn should have been enraged by what happened to Donna too.

For me it just doesn't track.

Edited October 27, 2019 by phoenics

[BaggythePanther]

1 hour ago, phoenics said:

Except DS nearly killed Donna.  Things changed after that - and I really don't see how anyone could blame Dick for going off after DS after that.  He killed Garth and then nearly killed Donna (who is basically Dick's sister) - Hank and Dawn being mad at him for that is just forced.

It shouldn't have even been just Dick - Hank (especially Hank) and Dawn should have been enraged by what happened to Donna too.

For me it just doesn't track.

I don’t think they’re mad at Dick for going after DS, but there’s a time and a place for everything. It wasn’t necessary to chase down DS right at that moment. Dick, Dawn and Hank could have regrouped and gone after DS as a team. They’d have a better chance of taking him down together and Jericho might still be alive. But this is all conjecture.

The breakup of the OG Titans is a big plot point this season so I’m very frustrated that even though we had multiple flashback episodes we’re still here trying to guess exactly why everyone is mad at Dick and why they lost touch. 

[phoenics]

35 minutes ago, BaggythePanther said:

I don’t think they’re mad at Dick for going after DS, but there’s a time and a place for everything. It wasn’t necessary to chase down DS right at that moment. Dick, Dawn and Hank could have regrouped and gone after DS as a team. They’d have a better chance of taking him down together and Jericho might still be alive. But this is all conjecture.

The breakup of the OG Titans is a big plot point this season so I’m very frustrated that even though we had multiple flashback episodes we’re still here trying to guess exactly why everyone is mad at Dick and why they lost touch. 

I think your last paragraph is basically my point.  We've spent all this time building up this story and spending oodles of screentime in flashbacks, neglecting characters like Rachel, Kory and Gar and we pretty much guessed this Jericho stuff episodes ago.  The ONLY thing we learned about this really was Jericho's body jumping powers, which is clearly going to play into later episodes (like he's likely already jumped in everyone by this point).

But as far as explaining why Dawn treats Dick like he's scum on the bottom of her shoe today and other times?  Nope.  I can't hold that kind of blame on Dick given he did it in a fit of anger.  Was it the right thing - no?  But it wasn't enough for Dawn and Hank to go so cold and pissed off at Dick like that - and certainly not for the piles of hypocritical judgment Dawn has been laying on Dick all season - the last pile on leading him to self sacrifice himself.  They have an unhealthy dynamic.  She heaps scorn on him and he self-martyrs.  It's good they broke up - but still yikes on Dawn's judgmental attitude.

Regarding the flashbacks, I'm just baffled.  The writers clearly think all the OG stuff is compelling, but those have (imo) been the weakest episodes this season.

It would be one thing if they would intentionally tie it to the dynamic of the new Titans team other than Dick making the same secretive mistakes with them.

So far - the new team only gets drawn into the drama as pawns in this OG backstory and showing how Dick is still messing up in ways.  But none of the good about them is being explicitly talked about.  Like - someone from the new team (like Kory or even Rachel) needs to walk up when Dawn or whoever is unloading on Dick and set her straight.  Even knowing the truth, they wouldn't treat Dick so badly.

This is just dragging the narrative down, imo and failing at drawing in the new team in a compelling way.

Also - Doom Patrol used the flashback model used on Arrow - so I see no reason why this show couldn't.  Arrow didn't invent that format.  And besides, even if it had, Arrow has stolen enough from Batman canon stories.  Titans (i.e. Dick) can certainly steal some back.

[Sakura12]

The only character that gets any development on this show is Dick. With everyone else we are left guessing what their motivations are. Even though we've had 2 flashbacks with the OG Titans I still don't feel like I know anything new about them.

Connor got a whole episode devoted to his story. We still don't know anything about Donna's backstory. At least with Gar we got to see a little bit about how he got his powers. 

[Lyanna19]

@MarkHB I'm on the same page that you are, it seemed to me that deathstroke deliberately killed Jericho.... Thoughts anyone? 🤔 

I thought Donna fought valiantly, and I also believe he didn't kill her purposefully either.... 

[Lyanna19]

And like someone else above @phoenics said, it's good that Dawn and Dick broke up, in fact it's the best thing that ever happened, Dawn is so judgemental of anything that Dick does, and in that soft deceptively voice makes me want to throw something at her. And Hank, he's just being a p**** as usual, I feel so bad for Dick, all of this plus trying to lead a bunch of whiny brats, who knew, or should have known what they signed up for, but still blame Dick like it's all his fault.

(Dick, I got your back, let them go... 😉👍Only the strong survive! 😁) 

[UnknownK]

On 10/28/2019 at 11:25 AM, Lyanna19 said:

@MarkHB I'm on the same page that you are, it seemed to me that deathstroke deliberately killed Jericho.... Thoughts anyone? 🤔 

I thought Donna fought valiantly, and I also believe he didn't kill her purposefully either.... 

He didn't kill her because he wanted to send a message (leave my family alone) to Dick and used her to send it. He did kill Donna's art professor just to get her phone to get Donna to show up for that beat down message.

Seems like a lot of steps and collateral damage for a hired stealth assassin to do when he should know where the Titans hang out and snipe whoever he needs to when they go for the morning coffee.

[AnimeMania]

1 hour ago, UnknownK said:

He did kill Donna's art professor just to get her phone to get Donna to show up for that beat down message.

Because Donna's "art professor?" was the original target for the assassination, the job was never completed and Deathstoke took his sweet time finishing it.

[Sakura12]

I don't think Deathstroke killed Jericho. He's an assassin but he did love his son. I don't think he could kill him just to spite Dick. He had his back turned he would not know that Jericho would just jump in front at that exact moment. Just like he didn't know that Garth would jump in front of Jillian at that exact moment. He's going after the Titans because he blames them for him killing his son. 

He didn't kill Donna because he needed her to give the message to the rest of the Titans. Donna should've done better in the fight because she's not human, Deathstroke is. She's supposed to be an Amazon warrior and he's a human with enhancements. Her punches should've sent him flying and not been at all like regular human punches. Robin lasted longer than her and he's just a human. But it's his show so I guess I shouldn't expect anyone else to be better than him. The rest of the Titans have all been depowered (Hawk, Dove and Wonder Girl) to make Dick look like the best one. 

[MarkHB]

2 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

Donna should've done better in the fight because she's not human, Deathstroke is. She's supposed to be an Amazon warrior and he's a human with enhancements.

I'm pretty sure Jillian and her entourage were all Amazons as well, so I was a bit beyond "WTF?" when he apparently slaughtered all of them. Even given that sequence in Identity Crisis where he essentially takes down the whole Justice League.

[Lyanna19]

Deathstroke is human with Inhuman capabilities, at least I always assumed that. 

[Quark]

Flashbacks should ensure that things add up, not increase the number of plotholes, which this episode did.

Rose should have been in this episode in some way, seeing as she apparently knew her brother and his record collection. The reason that Hawk and Dove had for being angry at Dick was very vague. And the thing I find most baffling, the whole episode gave the impression that Slade loved his son. But he tried to kill his daughter in the present and removed her eye? Makes so much sense. I suppose the only thing that could make sense here is that Slade is possessed by his son who was angry when he found out he had a sister and tried to kill her, but that doesn't explain why Rose is upset that her brother is dead and knew about his record collection.

I hope this post makes some sort of sense :P.

[Bruinsfan]

On 10/29/2019 at 4:19 PM, Lyanna19 said:

Deathstroke is human with Inhuman capabilities, at least I always assumed that. 

He's supposed to be. I could see him taking down, say, Batman fairly handily because of that. I recall a fight with the Titans where he grabbed Donna's lasso and used it to throw her into Starfire, but I don't think he really could have stood up to her in a direct fistfight. (He also managed to trip Kid Flash with a thrown baton, which is patently ridiculous for someone who can outrun bullets and dodge between the forks of a lightning bolt!)

[phoenics]

I feel like the only one they let go up against DS and not be depowered was Starfire... they had DS only able to counter her by throwing those bomb things at her, which felt realistic.

Everyone else was depowered against DS.

[Bruinsfan]

What I don't get, this is a world with an active Wonder Woman, right? How is Deathstroke running around free five years after butchering an entire delegation of Amazons and repeatedly stabbing Donna Troy rather than being either in the ground or caught and bundled off to Paradise Island for whatever justice its society cares to impose? I don't care how loyal or blasé Wintergreen is, he wouldn't be keeping any secrets about Slade Wilson from Diana.

[phoenics]

On 11/12/2020 at 4:53 PM, Bruinsfan said:

What I don't get, this is a world with an active Wonder Woman, right? How is Deathstroke running around free five years after butchering an entire delegation of Amazons and repeatedly stabbing Donna Troy rather than being either in the ground or caught and bundled off to Paradise Island for whatever justice its society cares to impose? I don't care how loyal or blasé Wintergreen is, he wouldn't be keeping any secrets about Slade Wilson from Diana.

Does Donna's lasso make people tell the truth?  Or is it only Diana's?  And yes, you make a great point - a lot of this stuff wouldn't have happened.  Like Aquaman wouldn't have shown up when Aqualad was killed.

It's always a problem with shows like this... for really earth shattering stuff or stuff where someone important dies, the bigger JL heroes should show up or some mention of them should happen so it's not so disjointed.