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S3 E5: First Case, Second Base

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Perhaps Shaun couldn’t think it through and do the surgery at the same time. 

1 hour ago, cinsays said:

And  I think Shaun would have not just kept saying no, no, no, no, no and run out of the operating room.  I think he would have excitedly said something like, no, this is not the right way to do it, there is a better way that will let her be able to eat!

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10 hours ago, SnarkEnthusiast said:

I get where you're coming from, but that's also highly subjective and usually inevitably ableist. I'm 28, a virgin, and have never really been kissed with romantic/sexual intent. I have severe spastic cerebral palsy and being visibly disabled (wheelchair) plus my muscle tone and speech pattern cause people to perceive me as childlike. Even when they get to know me and obviously know that I want a relationship/am attracted to them/understand consent etc. they just can't get past seeing me as a kid or some sort or accessory or motivational sidekick. I get told all the time I should "find somebody like me" (read: wheelchair) and I used to get really insulted by the idea that disabled people are inferior and should only date each other. With time, I've come around to the idea, but able people don't really get that two similarly disabled wheelchair users can't really date because a sexual relationship would be impossible, lol. Able people just want a way to compartmentalize our sexuality in socially acceptable parameters without confronting why disabled/neurodivergent people having desires makes them so uncomfortable.

Yes, people want those of us with disabilities to be with people "like us". I'm 29, virgin, never been kissed, mild CP (not typed, but I would get ataxic based on reading up on it), autism, hypotonia, and an atypical speech pattern (flat affect, high pitched voice). People view me like a child instead of an adult - go to the doctors, get driven by my parents because I can't drive, then when I see the doctor, they talk to my parent instead of me.

8 hours ago, chitowngirl said:

Perhaps Shaun couldn’t think it through and do the surgery at the same time. 

Then he could have said "Wait, quiet" or something - since the patient was stable

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I thought it was clear the reason Shaun ran out of the surgery was because of the realization of an alternative solution meant he couldn't lead the surgery and both those things over stimulated him. He was fixated on leading the surgery and almost had a meltdown earlier in the episode when the patient wanted him off her case.

I feel the fact he was able to push through those things was a huge step forward for him. Yes, it was not appropriate for him to leave but as Dr. Lim said, surgery is team work. Shaun was never going to be a standard surgeon and I think this helped him. Maybe in a real world scenario things would work different but I give latitude for drama on a TV show.

I do agree Carly's timing was poor. I think they should have left it at good luck and did the breast touching scene later in the episode and not just before surgery.

The gun argument could have been better handled. I'm just waiting for one of them to shoot Shaun thinking he's breaking into their house in some future episode. 

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I've been ruminating about this episode for a few days trying to put my finger on what bothers me about it.

Firstly, Carly should not have come in and have Shaun touch her boob right before he's going into surgery.  What was she thinking?  That could have been such a disaster. Very bad timing on her part.

The other thing that is bothering me is that when Shaun touched her or kissed her, I did not see any sort of passion on her part.  When she had him touch her, the look on her face was "how is Shaun reacting to this" as opposed to any sort of passionate expression.  I find the same when they are kissing.  It looks more like a lab experiment than a relationship.  I don't think I like the way the actress is portraying this.

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On 10/23/2019 at 4:38 PM, SnarkEnthusiast said:

I get where you're coming from, but that's also highly subjective and usually inevitably ableist. I'm 28, a virgin, and have never really been kissed with romantic/sexual intent. I have severe spastic cerebral palsy and being visibly disabled (wheelchair) plus my muscle tone and speech pattern cause people to perceive me as childlike. Even when they get to know me and obviously know that I want a relationship/am attracted to them/understand consent etc. they just can't get past seeing me as a kid or some sort or accessory or motivational sidekick. I get told all the time I should "find somebody like me" (read: wheelchair) and I used to get really insulted by the idea that disabled people are inferior and should only date each other. With time, I've come around to the idea, but able people don't really get that two similarly disabled wheelchair users can't really date because a sexual relationship would be impossible, lol. Able people just want a way to compartmentalize our sexuality in socially acceptable parameters without confronting why disabled/neurodivergent people having desires makes them so uncomfortable.

I appreciate yours & bros402's comments and apologize for my ignorance. It's awesome that you're willing to share your perspective. I have a followup question if you don't mind answering. When an able person finds someone with an obvious disability or deformity attractive, does it feel fetish-y? Would it bother you if it did?

I mean, I guess big boobs are something men typically find attractive and if a guy found me attractive because I have big boobs, I wouldn't care. But wouldn't it be inappropriate if a person found someone attractive because of their disability?

Sometimes it feels like Carly likes Shaun specifically because he's different. At what point is that not okay?

Edited by marcee
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2 hours ago, marcee said:

I appreciate yours & bros402's comments and apologize for my ignorance. It's awesome that you're willing to share your perspective. I have a followup question if you don't mind answering. When an able person finds someone with an obvious disability or deformity attractive, does it feel fetish-y? Would it bother you if it did?

I mean, I guess big boobs are something men typically find attractive and if a guy found me attractive because I have big boobs, I wouldn't care. But wouldn't it be inappropriate if a person found someone attractive because of their disability?

Sometimes it feels like Carly likes Shaun specifically because he's different. At what point is that not okay?

I wasn't offended at all and I hope my post didn't read that way! 

 It’s not very common, but usually in my experience men being attracted to me is some sort of fetish scenario. Sometimes they will flat out message me saying that they really like girls in wheelchairs. It usually boils down to the fact they get off on you being totally dependent on them for everything  At worst, it’s a sexual thing that teeters on a rape fantasy. Re:  whether or not it’s OK, my opinion and the general consensus seems to be to each their own in the community. I would be really uneasy dating someone who was only attracted to me for my disability because it seems like it could really easily switch into a control dynamic but especially for physically disabled women sometimes it works for them and they don’t mind it so more power to them. 

I don’t think the writers intended for Carly  to be portrayed as only attracted to Shaun  for his autism or being turned on by his sexual inexperience -  if anything, she seems annoyed or actively distressed by his repulsion to physical intimacy.  I think they threw in the detail that her sister also has autism to try and imply that that experience  would make her more open minded to dating someone with autism even though it would obviously be much different from person to person. I get what they were going for in that growing up around someone with a disability would make you more empathetic and likely to humanize them, which could lead to something romantic.  Personally, I don’t think it would make them any more likely to date someone similar in reality.  My sister and other siblings of disabled people that I’ve met are obviously more attuned to disabilities and maybe more protective, but  i’ve never gotten a romantic vibe from someone else who has a disabled person in their family and my sister never dated anyone with a disability. In my freshman year of college, there was a guy who would offer to take me to lunch almost every day, and being 18  I was excited and thought there might be some romantic interest there because people so rarely go out of their way to take initiative and spend time with us. I found out that he had twin siblings that also had cerebral palsy and used electric wheelchairs,  which is why he made it a point to look out for me and sometimes buy me food.   I would actually say that having a disabled sibling probably makes you even more likely to only see them platonically if that’s possible, especially if someone has the same disability as your sibling, because you inevitably associate them with your sibling even though that’s a massive generalization. 

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9 hours ago, marcee said:

I appreciate yours & bros402's comments and apologize for my ignorance. It's awesome that you're willing to share your perspective. I have a followup question if you don't mind answering. When an able person finds someone with an obvious disability or deformity attractive, does it feel fetish-y? Would it bother you if it did?

I mean, I guess big boobs are something men typically find attractive and if a guy found me attractive because I have big boobs, I wouldn't care. But wouldn't it be inappropriate if a person found someone attractive because of their disability?

Sometimes it feels like Carly likes Shaun specifically because he's different. At what point is that not okay?

I'm male. I am not a wheelchair user, but most people can tell something is "off" about me (or at least it feels that way!) by my flat affect, high pitched voice, and very low muscle mass.

I've never been on a date, though, nobody has expressed interest in me.

With Carly - I haven't read her actions as fetishizing Shaun's autism, but more "Am I pushing Shaun too far too fast? Should I move slower? I don't want him to have a meltdown." - basically, her walking on eggshells. Analyzing Shaun, playing things by ear - basically.

Edited by bros402
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On 10/22/2019 at 10:21 AM, AriAu said:

I'm sure that this will be unpopular, but Shawn's reaction DID endanger the patient....as Andrews said, "we have a patient open on the table".  I know that there were  all kinds of nerves and emotions, but Shawn's reaction was just unacceptable. I get that they are supposed to make reasonable accommodations, but not when it affects patient care (i.e. his true ability to do his job), and here his freak out and lack of communication skills did put the patient in jeopardy. I know, I know, it all worked out and Shawn was right, but he has to find a way to control his emotions and communicate in a better and more productive way since he cant count on always having Lim or Park there to hold his hand. talk him through it.I know he really, really wants to be a surgeon, but it may not be the right thing for the patients, let alone the hospital.

And Carly.....not the best timing on getting him to feel you up!

I agree completely.  For all of his confidence in being a surgeon, Shaun seems oblivious that those kinds of meltdowns are not acceptable. He may have brilliant potential, but, his meltdowns seem really insurmountable. And to tell a patient you have that must trust in him, knowing what you know........I don't see it. Maybe, he could be a surgical consultant, but that's it.  I don't think he liked that idea though, once when it was mentioned. 

The woman who offered her breast to Shaun right before his surgery.....omg, what's wrong with her?  When I am preparing for a big trial, I don't want any distractions and I have been practicing law for a long time.   I don't even chit chat with people.  Even for 24 hours before the trial, I am laser focused and someone trying to discuss personal matters and engage in intimate touching....are you KIDDING?  Too bizarre.  Maybe, experienced surgeons do that, but, not a new one, imo. I'm starting not to like that woman.   

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17 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I agree completely.  For all of his confidence in being a surgeon, Shaun seems oblivious that those kinds of meltdowns are not acceptable. He may have brilliant potential, but, his meltdowns seem really insurmountable. And to tell a patient you have that must trust in him, knowing what you know........I don't see it. Maybe, he could be a surgical consultant, but that's it.  I don't think he liked that idea though, once when it was mentioned. 

As they said in the episode, Shaun would be an excellent diagnostician - which is something he definitely excels at.

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I think my issues with this episode (gun debate, ill-timed breast exam, coddling Shaun not realistic) have been discussed already.

I like Claire, but not Resnick, so them being paired up for the past two episodes has been barely tolerable. I like that they are doing more with her, but not so enthused that her story is her grief spiral.

Where's Melendez?? I feel Park got kinda shortchanged here too. I want stories for them too.
 

On 10/21/2019 at 10:49 AM, Lady Calypso said:

This episode was the first time I became wary of her. I'm glad it worked out, but I think that it's clear that she may not be someone that's compatible with Shaun. That's not a bad thing, but it seems like this will be a short term relationship meant to grow both Shaun and Carly as people, as they deal with each other's quirks and flaws as a couple. 

I think Carly's really figuring out that she can't do the normal couple activities with Shaun, and Shaun is realizing that he can't have everything his way. They're realizing that they need to be compromising constantly and it's only a matter of time when one of them realizes that they can't do it anymore. 

I like Carly and Shaun; but I do think this relationship is clearly here to prep him for a better relationship down the line. But I think it's good to explore how Shaun handles intimate relationships. However, so far I feel like Carly may not get what she needs from Shaun.

Edited by Trini
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On 10/22/2019 at 9:39 AM, Lady Calypso said:

I think it's a hard issue to compromise on, as it's been mentioned. What IS a compromise with the issue of gun ownership? Either you have the gun in the house or you don't. The only potential compromise is not keeping the gun in the bedroom, but, unlike Shaun and Carly's issues thus far, there's not a whole lot they can do about compromising on this issue. Glassman didn't want the gun in the home. Debbie wanted to keep her gun. There was no winning here. Even though Glassman tried a couple of ways to get her to give up the gun and almost threatened a divorce/annulment (they haven't been married that long) because he was that adamant on the gun ownership issue, I didn't like HOW they concluded the storyline. I think there could have been a better ending, even if Glassman had to accept the gun in his home. 

But, again, this DOES go toward the idea that Glassman and Debbie married too quickly and don't know each other that well. Glassman should have known about Debbie owning a gun before marriage. It just means that these two will have a bit of a difficult first year because they completely skipped some steps and went right into marriage after a short dating period. 

I wonder if she owns a chef's knife as well. He probably isn't worried about that.

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On 10/29/2019 at 3:03 AM, bros402 said:

As they said in the episode, Shaun would be an excellent diagnostician - which is something he definitely excels at.

So he's the Greg House parallel on this show? I was wondering who it was.

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2 hours ago, statsgirl said:

So he's the Greg House parallel on this show? I was wondering who it was.

Yeah, he definitely has the knowledge of House, but instead of being a jerk, he just has difficulty with socialization and social cues.

So House chooses not to respect them, Shaun doesn't recognize them

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