Couples Therapy (2019) - General Discussion

[hoodooznoodooz]

On 5/8/2021 at 3:28 PM, TVbitch said:

I could watch an episode of this show every day (and give up General Hospital) because it is such compelling drama! 

I think all the couples made significant breakthroughs. I cried at the end of the last episode, cuz I believe they all just might make it. (Last year it was clear some would not.) When they showed Matthew and Gianni in Italy, I was so happy for them. Matthew was carrying so much heavy baggage and was such a beat down Eeyore, but he really came to some good self-awareness. It was nice to see him lighten up and start enjoying sober life with Gianni. 

Michael is super chill and carefree, which irritates a type A worrier like Michal, but they do seem to have a fun, friendly and intellectually lively relationship. (They reminded me a bit of Mau and Annie in that way, except that Mau would be impossible to live with, whereas Michael actually IS committed to Michal.) If she can relax a bit and he can step up a bit, I think they will be fine. It seemed to be headed in that direction at the end. 

I thought Tashira was gonna be the one who couldn't change this season, and Dru might need to accept that he was chasing after someone who was simply unavailable for relationship. But darned if she didn't have a breakthrough and start to let Dru in. ....the magic of puppies! They seemed much happier in the epilogue footage, and got engaged! 

Glad they only had three couples this season. It was enough and allowed me to remember each couple's circumstances more deeply than when they had 4-5. 

This show has taught me so much!

I agree with all your observations.

Too bad there are not more therapists like Orna. 

[yourmomiseasy]

Reddit says this is Annie and Mau https://www.inquirer.com/food/milk-honey-market-west-philadelphia-closed-workers-health-coronavirus-20200601.html

[HerkyJerky]

On 9/15/2019 at 1:38 PM, Auntie Anxiety said:

I don’t think I’m spoiling anything if I say that Mau is a maddening, arrogant asshole.

Sorry I'm late to the party but I just now got Showtime because I heard so many good things about Yellowjackets (and I was not disappointed-GREAT SHOW, btw) and I found this show and I also love it! When I watch the first couple and Mau was so clearly an asshole, I thought, "Here we go; this is going to be a male-bashing show which I'm not up for. But then the next couple had Elaine upset because she called her husband 20 times a day at work and was upset because he didn't pick up every time, I thought this is going to be an equal opportunity show and I LOVE IT!

[hoodooznoodooz]

New season, everybody!!!! I’m so happy!!

Friday, 8 pm.

[hoodooznoodooz]

Hmmm… These couples are not as intriguing as couples from previous seasons. 
Although it’s so interesting how that one woman no longer desires her wife, as her wife has become more and more maternal, triggering feeling betrayed by her own mom.

[HerkyJerky]

So, hoodooznoodooz, I LOVED the previous seasons but I don't know if I can pay for ANOTHER streaming service.  So, is the new season worth it? Or should I just wait for the new season of Yellowjackets to come out before I re-enroll?🤑

Edited May 17, 2022 by HerkyJerky
Missing word

[hoodooznoodooz]

1 hour ago, HerkyJerky said:

So, hoodooznoodooz, I LOVED the previous seasons but I don't know if I can pay for ANOTHER streaming service.  So, is the new season worth it? Or should I just wait for the new season of Yellowjackets to come out before I re-enroll?🤑

Hello, HerkyJerky! Tell you what. Don’t pay for it yet. I will keep watching and report back here. As you wrote, the other seasons were amazing. Nothing about the first two episodes of this season really grabbed me yet. Orna is still fantastic, however.

[HerkyJerky]

6 hours ago, hoodooznoodooz said:

Don’t pay for it yet. I will keep watching and report back here.

THANK YOU!!!!!!

 

6 hours ago, hoodooznoodooz said:

Orna is still fantastic, however.

She was the first two seasons, that's for sure!

[oldCJ]

I am so glad Ping decided to leave Will. His silent smirking and smugness made me want to punch him through the tv. Together they showed all four of John Gottman’s horsemen: criticism, defensiveness, contempt and stonewalling. And while Ping showed she was working on her behavior over the course of therapy, Will couldn’t even be bothered to read a book that might help them. 

Cyn and Yaya were the only couple that didn’t have the angry wife, emotionally-withdrawn husband dynamic this season. It was interesting to watch the other three couples’ interactions play out over the course of the season. The woman comes off as crazy and mean and the man as put-upon. As the story came out through the episodes, however, it turned out his behavior is the thing driving her crazy. I loved the analysis of that in Orna’s therapy group. 

I think Cyn brought up crushes, not as a sabotage but rather as a clue as to why she isn’t physically into her wife anymore. My guess is she is into someone else from the volleyball group. It would explain why she only got randy on Fire Island (her crush would have been there) but when finally alone with Yaya again, the flame went out. The mommy-child dynamic between them was creepy. When Cyn was like “she didn’t wash my clothes so I couldn’t go out” all I could imagine was a teenager bitching about their mom. I hope Yaya finds someone who treats her like she deserves and not as a substitute mother.

The Molly and Josh situation was nuts. He has an affair, she aborts the third child she knows he didn’t want anyway, she gets addicted to percocet, he seemingly does nothing and she crashes a car while on the painkillers, she gets her emotional needs met with a male student, he gets jealous and controlling about it but still refuses to support her emotionally, she hooks up with her high school ex, he can’t even pick out a marker color. I started out hating her and thinking she was totally awful. Just like the Ping-Will dynamic, the more the husband talked, the more my opinion changed about the wife. I don’t see them staying together after their kids leave for college.

This show is a rollercoaster and I can’t wait for more.

 

[HerkyJerky]

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2022/05/23/couples-therapy-showtime-orna-guralnik

[TVbitch]

I did not relate to these couples and their issues as much, but Orna is still at the top of her game, and I was fascinated as always. Love Virginia, but didn't need the new peanut gallery of shrinks who chimed in on all of Orna's cases. 

In the end, I thought only Dale and India had a healthy, solid relationship. They came out stronger individually and together. Molly and John seem to enjoy and be proud of their super high drama, over analyzed dynamic. Cyn will continue to drop bombs to make sure Yaya knows she always has one foot out the door. ("We had sex! ..but I wasn't really feeling it." "We're in a honeymoon phase! ...but I'm going to tell her about my crushes.") Will thought he was marrying a buddy who would swing and play with him. Ping realized she didn't want to swing anymore and was enraged when Will would not give that up and focus on her. Separating was the only answer. 

Does anyone know if there will be a season in the fall, or do we have to wait a year?! 

[hoodooznoodooz]

On 5/21/2022 at 2:52 PM, HerkyJerky said:

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2022/05/23/couples-therapy-showtime-orna-guralnik

Thank you very much for linking this, HerkyJerky. 
I am surprised that they are not billing the patients!

I am confused: therapists don’t disclose much about their personal lives to their patients because it hinders transference? I thought transference interfered with therapy?

HerkyJerky: You should definitely wait until they drop season 2 of Yellowjackets. This show is good but, as I wrote, not as riveting as the other seasons.

Interesting how one spouse has a habit of dumping therapists whenever they start contradicting her. 

[HerkyJerky]

20 minutes ago, hoodooznoodooz said:

HerkyJerky: You should definitely wait until they drop season 2 of Yellowjackets.

HDND, Thanks for your advice!

[oldCJ]

On 5/29/2022 at 6:21 AM, hoodooznoodooz said:

therapists don’t disclose much about their personal lives to their patients because it hinders transference? I thought transference interfered with therapy?

The usual analogy to explain how transference works is that of a blank screen. Essentially, the therapist wants the client to see them as a blank screen. Then the client then will project their unconscious feelings, etc on that blank screen. If the therapist reveals anything personal, it will change the client’s view of them and prevent that kind of transference. 

For example, if the client has mother issues, like all of these clients seems to have on the show,  Orna just existing as an older woman will bring those feelings out in the clients during their interactions. Then she helps the client see those issues and work through them. 

On the other hand, strong sexual or romantic feelings towards the therapist are the kind of transference that does interfere with therapy. 

[watchingtvaddict]

I missed it… 

why was Josh angry with Molly? Why does he have to forgive her? 
She felt like he wasn’t supportive during her miscarriages, he had an affair during her third pregnancy and she aborted as a consequence. 
I know she was addicted to Percocet and crashed the car… but I didn’t really understand why he was the angry one. 

[watchingtvaddict]

On 6/5/2022 at 11:47 AM, watchingtvaddict said:

I missed it… 

why was Josh angry with Molly? Why does he have to forgive her? 
She felt like he wasn’t supportive during her miscarriages, he had an affair during her third pregnancy and she aborted as a consequence. 
I know she was addicted to Percocet and crashed the car… but I didn’t really understand why he was the angry one. 

Oh! Watched further and she also had two affairs.... 

Why are they still together?

The husband walked into the living room while I was watching one of their sessions, listened for a minute or two then angrily said "Just get a divorce already!" and walked out. 🤣

[hoodooznoodooz]

On 6/4/2022 at 10:47 PM, watchingtvaddict said:

I missed it… 

why was Josh angry with Molly? Why does he have to forgive her? 
She felt like he wasn’t supportive during her miscarriages, he had an affair during her third pregnancy and she aborted as a consequence. 
I know she was addicted to Percocet and crashed the car… but I didn’t really understand why he was the angry one. 

Okay. Molly and Josh are confusing me. She seems to be extremely upset that, despite her telling him for years what she needs from him, he has not changed his behavior. So this leads to her having affairs. He doesn’t seem very angry about it. She also contradicts herself sometimes. I don’t think she communicates that well.

Edited June 10, 2022 by hoodooznoodooz

[izabella]

On 6/8/2022 at 1:04 AM, hoodooznoodooz said:

Okay. Molly and Josh are confusing me. She seems to be extremely upset that, despite her telling him for years what she needs from him, he has not changed his behavior. So this leads to her having affairs. He doesn’t seem very angry about it. She also contradicts herself sometimes. I don’t think she communicates that well.

I didn't understand what was happening between them, nor how things resolved.  They were very confusing. 

[Door County Cherry]

I loved this first season but never got around to the COVID special or 2nd season.  But with the advertising surrounding the 3rd season and super hot weather, I finally got through both seasons.  Fascinating as always.

COVID special

That was traumatic to watch now--after all this time.  The early days of COVID.  The quarantining.  The shock over 100,000 deaths and how many more we've had and how desensitized people grew to be about it.  Then George Floyd.  That was a heavy watch.  

But at least it was an opportunity to show people they clearly filmed for a 2nd season but who didn't make the cut and catch up on some people from the first season.  

Sam and Lauren ended up getting a divorce so the move to the country didn't save them. 

2nd Season

I didn't have much hope for Michael and Michal early on.  The absolute contempt she had for him was astounding.  I was pleasantly surprised at how well therapy and things ended up working out for them.  They both interrogated their roles in the relationship and whether they needed to change or recognize why they wanted what they did.  This was the perfect mixture of people willing to do the work and the therapist really asking the right questions.  I also suspect editing might have played a part here.  They were clearly still connected sexually, even with all the pressure of everyday life, and we saw more of their playful dynamic later on.  

Tashira and Dru also made some nice strides.  I did have to laugh at the gift of a puppy.  "I love you, honey, here's a bundle of a energy who is a lot of extra work."  

I kind of feel that Matthew and Gianni should maybe call it quits.  Or, at the very least, continue therapy as both individuals and as a couple.  Gianni has put up with a lot of violence in his relationship with Matthew.  Even though it doesn't sound like he hit Gianni, Gianni has felt the need to calm Matthew when he was drunk.  And try to take responsibility for Matthew's navigation of sobriety.  And still deal with Matthew not trusting he's going to stay.  

3rd Season

Dale and India were a beautiful couple.  I hope they're going strong.  They didn't quite have the problems of the other couples, though--as a couple, that is.  They had heavy things to confront but they seemed to have a good relationship even in the beginning. 

I think Cyn and Yaya do need to put more energy into doing things as a couple. I don't think Cyn necessarily had a crush on someone on Fire Island.  I think she saw Yaya not in mom mode.  There were a lot of lesbians around.  Yaya is attractive.  I'm guessing she was getting a lot of flirty attention.  I think seeing Yaya desired sparked something in Cyn which is why she was feeling amorous.  Doing more of that could help that connection; although I'm still not convinced Cyn hasn't or won't cheat.  

On 5/27/2022 at 8:50 AM, TVbitch said:

Will thought he was marrying a buddy who would swing and play with him. Ping realized she didn't want to swing anymore and was enraged when Will would not give that up and focus on her. Separating was the only answer. 

I must have missed this. I don't remember her talking about wanting to close the relationship.  I think their open relationship issue was a classic one.  She had an easier time finding partners, as women in open relationships often do--especially when they're seeking men.  He got jealous (not of her other relationships but the ease of which she found other partners) and started putting limits on what he thought she should be able to do with her other partners.  

Then, when he finally started having success because of Ping's assistance, he didn't want any limits placed on him.  And Ping felt he focused more on those outside relationships and not enough on making sure their primary relationship was strong. 

And this might be projecting but I think their relationship ended when he decided to go to Korea for a year.  He felt checked out of therapy.  It's like he wanted to end things but didn't want to be the "bad guy" and end things.  He wanted Ping to do it. 

I'm glad they were included.  Sometimes therapy is about bringing something to an end and I do think the therapy has helped Ping.  Maybe the divorce will be less ugly as a result.

On 5/27/2022 at 8:50 AM, TVbitch said:

Molly and John seem to enjoy and be proud of their super high drama, over analyzed dynamic.

On 6/8/2022 at 1:04 AM, hoodooznoodooz said:

She seems to be extremely upset that, despite her telling him for years what she needs from him, he has not changed his behavior. So this leads to her having affairs. He doesn’t seem very angry about it.

I think TV Bitch nailed it. Molly strikes me as someone who thinks she's more introspective and analytical than she actually is. She isn't satisfied with how Josh communicates even though she understands his way.  Orna called her out on that.  She blames her five year (5? OMG) emotional affair on not getting something from Josh.  She blames Josh for her physical affair even though what she says she got out of it is pretty cliche--to feel young again--even though that's not something Josh could give her.  

I'm not saying that Josh couldn't do more or be better or hasn't made mistakes.  I don't think, though, that it'd make much a difference if he did change. Analyzing what's "missing" from her life is part of her life.  If she didn't have that, she'd think something was lacking. 

Basically, I was not surprised she taught yoga.  She feels like a cliche of a certain subset of yoga teachers who are all "eat, pray, love" (I don't mean that in a good way) and living the fullest life while never feeling satisfied. 

[hoodooznoodooz]

April 28!!!

[Door County Cherry]

I'd like to binge this show but I noticed Comcast is missing Ep. 10, 12 and 15. I gather it debuted last night and we're supposed to have all the episodes but now I can't even start it. 

So irritating. 

[TVbitch]

I've only watched the first epsiode. Orna looks pretty exhausted. Some of the couples seem a bit more "camera ready" to me, but I guess that is to be expected as the show is into its fourth year. 

Edited May 1, 2023 by TVbitch

[hoodooznoodooz]

With Sean’s attitude and behavior, Erica still thinks that 80% of her life, family, etc., is wonderful? And then also beats herself up for focusing on the 20% that is awful, because her husband’s definition of infidelity is different from hers.

[hoodooznoodooz]

It drives me crazy how some husbands just seem to get married so they have someone who is more likely to have sex with them, whenever the husband wants it.

[hoodooznoodooz]

On 4/29/2023 at 7:15 PM, TVbitch said:

I've only watched the first epsiode. Orna looks pretty exhausted. Some of the couples seem a bit more "camera ready" to me, but I guess that is to be expected as goes into its fourth year. 

Orna does look exhausted. She cares so deeply for her patients/clients.

[TVbitch]

Through Episode 2...

Nadine and Christine:

I need to read up on polyamory, cuz I'm not sure exactly what it entails or how it is different from an open relationship. Nadine basically said to Christine, "I'm having sex with someone else right now and then you wanted to have sex with me, but no, I don't want to have sex with you, and ps. you're too needy right now." Meanwhile Christine is falling apart from this and her PTSD and her medical issues. Maybe that is just too much for Nadine to take on, but it seems to me if you want the freedom to do whatever you want, and not worry about your partner's wants or needs, then, WHY BE IN A RELATIONSHIP?

Kristi and Brock:

As soon as she said they were living apart, I figured the revelation of an affair was imminent. I'm guessing living on their own was more Kristi's idea and part of her break with Mormonism, cuz she seemed really jazzed to have such freedom. It also sounded like she told him not to disclose her affair in therapy or something, cuz Brock really dithered around before coming out with it. They probably need to "fall back in love" with each other outside of Mormonism. And they do have the chemistry to do it.

Sean and Erica:

I would not last five minutes with Sean and his gross personality! Orna HATES him and barely tries to hide it. I wonder if she will get anything deeper out of him, or it they are the couple she has to bail on.

Josh and Natasha:

I get that men are hard-wired for sexual intimacy. However, Natasha did just have a baby, and that can really mess you up physically, hormonally, psyhologically, etc., Sometimes men don't have enough sympathy for that. They just want to get back to sexy times ASAP and want their wife to be like she was before. But nothing is worse than trying to have sex with someone when you are not feeling it, so it's a hard situation to "compromise" on. I wonder how the "sex off the table" experiment will go.

Edited May 1, 2023 by TVbitch

[TVbitch]

Episode 3:

Sean must be deaf, as he seems unable to hear the gaslighting BS that comes out of his mouth: "I can't change it, so there is no use talking about it; it's in the past" -like Erica  is belaboring for decades about the multiple affairs she found out about six months ago!

Brock did leave the church, but Kristi is mad that he didn't leave it FOR HER, and had to come to his own decision later. He is mad that she slept with the one guy he asked her not to, and damn does she seem proud of this fact. She talked about it like I might talk about... so I went ahead and treated myself to a massage AND some ice cream!!! Like the scandal of it was some kind of self-care empowerment triumph!

Nadine makes more sense now that we know her back story. She may not be able to settle down or trust any sense of stability, but a "safe, stable home" is exactly what Christine needs, so, not sure these two are a match.

[Door County Cherry]

On 4/30/2023 at 9:15 PM, TVbitch said:

I need to read up on polyamory, cuz I'm not sure exactly what it entails or how it is different from an open relationship.

Polyamory is a form of an open relationship and it means having multiple ongoing romantic relationships instead of just external sexual relationships.  So Nadine wouldn't just have someone she'd sleep with every once in a while but someone she'd go on dates with...etc.  

Most people think of open relationships is being able to have sex with other people but most don't enter into serious relationships with those sex partners. 

On 4/30/2023 at 9:15 PM, TVbitch said:

Nadine basically said to Christine, "I'm having sex with someone else right now and then you wanted to have sex with me, but no, I don't want to have sex with you, and ps. you're too needy right now." Meanwhile Christine is falling apart from this and her PTSD and her medical issues. Maybe that is just too much for Nadine to take on, but it seems to me if you want the freedom to do whatever you want, and not worry about your partner's wants or needs, then, WHY BE IN A RELATIONSHIP?

The thing that cracks me up the most about these two is I don't think they've even been dating two years at this point.  

I just think they're wired differently and should accept it. I just can't see it working out for them. Intellectually, Christine thinks open relationships are okay and might even be practical.  But in reality, it triggers too many insecurities, especially the way Nadine wants to do it.  It sounds like when Nadine is dating someone else, she doesn't have interest in a sexual relationship with Christine.  No wonder Christine doesn't think she's enough.  

On 4/30/2023 at 9:15 PM, TVbitch said:

I would not last five minutes with Sean and his gross personality! Orna HATES him and barely tries to hide it. I wonder if she will get anything deeper out of him, or it they are the couple she has to bail on.

I feel like it has to be them and I think it's because of his gaslighting.  I've always wondered how a therapist would deal with signs of abuse which I think gaslighting is even if he doesn't hit her. 

He only got worse when we learned that he hasn't been employed in the five years since they had their daughter.  Having him be the stay-at-home parent is a good thing if they agree on it but the way he talked about how he screwed around when he was outside of the country or in a different state made me think he had to travel for work.  But nope.  Not for work.  

On 4/30/2023 at 9:15 PM, TVbitch said:

get that men are hard-wired for sexual intimacy. However, Natasha did just have a baby, and that can really mess you up physically, hormonally, psyhologically, etc.,

I'm surprised that wasn't mentioned.  Plus, she has two young kids now who probably want to touch her all the time and her husband.  I expected her to explore the history of her desire more before and after this most recent baby. 

[TVbitch]

Episode 8

Kristi/Brock

Dear Brock, since you appear to be going insane (and I can't blame you) trying to figure out exactly what it is Kristi wants, allow me to assist you: She wants to be in an open relationship, but she does not want YOU to be in an open relationship. She also wants you to support her in ignoring your needs and/or hurting you in any way she sees fit, if it serves her freedom or self-exploration. And you must not hold this against her. That one does not go both ways either, I can assure you.

Josh/Natasha

Have we learned anything about her other than she apparently doesn't love her body since having the baby? She does not come across as a deep thinker (not judging, some people just aren't! 😇). She actually seems kind of girlish to me, with her giggles and excited interjections. Josh seems to have realized being angry and frustrated won't get him laid, and is now being more open and supportive. 

The Girls

They are exhausting: "We just love each other so much. Love. Love. Love. But we are also in love with others. Tee hee hee! But I don't like how she is in this other relationship, cuz that makes me sad, but we are each other's rock and we love each other so much!! We moved in together, but I had to move out immediately, cuz I don't want to watch her be with this other person, even though I am now also with another person. Did I mention we love each other so much!!! Love. Love. Love!!! Tee hee hee!"

It's like they are playing some kind of game with each other that they both find very dramatic and entertaining. I don't think they will totally separate cuz they are enjoying playing the game.

Sean and Erica 

They are super happy coming in but five seconds later, it falls apart, cuz he didn't understand that the youtube video she forwarded to him was supposed to be philosophically instructional for him, not her! Then he gets back on his rant about being the noble house husband who puts family first, implying she does not because she is career oriented, like his neglectful mother. Nothing wrong with being a house husband, if the two of you agree, though in this case, Erica doesn't seem to be entirely on board with it. She was only happy cuz he cleaned out the bathroom cabinets. She probably thinks he is not pulling his weight, and maybe that is true, but, if you emasculate a man at home, they might seek out other encounters. They both don't seem to have respect for the other's role and have to dig at each other about it. 

Only one more episode left! 

[7-Zark-7]

On 5/1/2023 at 11:57 AM, TVbitch said:

Brock… is mad that she slept with the one guy he asked her not to, and damn does she seem proud of this fact.

I was surprised when Kristi claimed that she didn’t plan to sleep with the man Brock nixed. The doctor should have pressed her on this. It seems very clear that she knew what she was doing. When she was assaulted, she had to put up with some guy making a choice about her body. When the she went to the men at her church she had to deal with their rules about her body and when her husband told her who she couldn’t have sex with, she saw that as just one more man telling her what she could and couldn’t do with her body. So she saw ignoring his objection as a way to stand up for herself. It’s misguided as hell, but the motivation is clear.

Kristi also wants to punish her husband for not overriding a lifetime of indoctrination and leaving the church when she wanted him to. She doesn’t seem to realize that people need to come to their own realization about their faith. It’s not the equivalent of refusing to shop at a store when the service is bad, it takes time.  

Kristi is pissed off about how she’s been treated by men, and that’s understandable, but that doesn’t give her the right to show such contempt for her husband, a man who really has tried to work with her and has gotten seemingly little in return.

[Door County Cherry]

I had to stop at 14 since 15 is missing from On Demand.  But once it airs this Friday, I'll be able to finish up the rest of the season--thankfully.  I do not like watching a bit at a time. 

So take these opinions for what they are--missing the context of the last four episodes. 

8 hours ago, 7-Zark-7 said:

Kristi also wants to punish her husband for not overriding a lifetime of indoctrination and leaving the church when she wanted him to. She doesn’t seem to realize that people need to come to their own realization about their faith. It’s not the equivalent of refusing to shop at a store when the service is bad, it takes time.

Sure but what Kristi experienced was also a lot more serious than simply "bad service" from the church and the act of going to church felt like a dismissal of her concerns because it kind of was a dismissal of her experience. The testimony of her hurt wasn't enough for him. It's like a woman telling a male supervisor that another male coworker harassed her and having him respond "Jim?  Jim hasn't been anything but awesome to me.  I don't think he means anything by it.  Ever consider you're being a little sensitive?" 

And I still don't think he quite gets it.  Brock has expressed that he feels she still resents him for those five years and would prefer it be put in the past. If he had his way, I think he'd want to focus on examining the affair and the aftermath in their sessions while leaving those five years of unaligned churchgoing in the past because, hey, he left, right?  

On the other hand, to Kristi, you can't tell the story of her affair without those five years.  I think you're exactly right about her motivations and I think she needs to admit that to herself. I don't think she knows what she wants and even if I think she has some real grievances, I couldn't tell you if I thought she wanted to stay together or not. 

I really didn't like Nadine and Christine's session where Christine asked Nadine to move out it somehow got to the point of comparing Christine trying to establish boundaries with what Nadine's parents did.  But I did feel bad for Nadine's crisis.  Still, there's something about her that needs intense personal therapy and there's part of me that finds her to be manipulative.  Although since they're on a lease together, Christine didn't exactly have the rights to kick her out either.  

I just wish Orna would say that maybe their happy ending is separating as lifelong friends and cease being lovers.  That'd still give Nadine exactly what she said she wanted.  

[4evaQuez]

I'm so happy this show is back. I didn't realize more episodes were added to Season 3 until late last night. I marathoned the show until way past my bedtime. I plan to rewatch the show and pay more attention to details, but I did want to share some initial thoughts on my first watch. I reserve the right to change my mind after a rewatch.

 

Josh/Natasha

These two remind me of Molly and Josh (3A). Both Josh(3B) and Molly have huge personalities that take up the majority of the space. Because of how gender sometimes impacts our relationships Josh(3B) doesn't only take up emotional and social space, but he also takes up more physical space. Natasha seems like she is shrinking next to him while simultaneously looking up at him. She obviously places him on a pedestal and literally looks up to him, too. Because Molly and Josh (3B) take up so much space, the little space they leave their partner doesn't really give them much room for spontaneity, honesty, anger, joy, etc. Molly and Josh (3B) both interpret this as their partner being checked out, but both are present. Both actually are sharing frustrations and hopes regarding the relationship but they are easily overshadowed and silenced by the much bigger personality. Josh (3A) responds via passive aggression and Natasha responds by lionizing Josh (3B) and diminishing herself. Natasha seems like someone who has given up a lot of herself, and she talks about Josh as if his bigness will occupy the places of herself she had to forego. It seems she's coming to the realization that his "boisterous personality" -to quote Josh - only provides more excuses for her not to find herself and promote herself from sidekick to partner.

Nadine/Christine

I found these two very hard to connect with. I assumed they were older Gen Z, but they mentioned being Millenials. I assume they are very late Millenials. I mention this because their way of communicating felt childish - even though one is in med school - and emotionally shallow while using social media lingo to present themselves as deeper and more introspective than they actually are. As I spent more time with them, I do think Christine felt more real. I'm not so certain about Nadine. I think one issue I had is that the stories they would tell of their interactions away from Dr. Orna and the camera felt alien to the people they presented themselves as in the office. Of course, I'm certain the camera and therapeutic office change everyone's dynamics, but when Sean Erica, for example, would discuss their offscreen arguments, it still seemed reminiscent of the people in front of Orna and the camera and thus the audience. These two really made me consider how we are in 3B of the series; thus, people understand the formula and maybe make adjustments - conscious or not - to how they want to be portrayed. I feel I will have to rewatch these two because I genuinely didn't understand what the connection was as Christine seemed ambitious and a little more traditional than she wanted to admit to herself; whereas, Nadine seemed chaotic, directionless, and more hesitant to grow.

Sean/Erica

Wow! It was very difficult to empathize with Sean. I felt Erica was similar to India in the sense that both are ambitious black women who are married to partners who resent their ambition and use words like "anger" and the racist and misogynistic connotations of that word against black women to detract from the various ways the men fail as partners and resent their wives. I also think both are entirely too quick to accept their language and attempt to fix their "anger" while the husband attempts to skate by all the justifiable reasons and actions that make the wife angry. I felt for Erica when she said that work provides hard documentation when it comes to worthiness: awards, promotions, paychecks, etc. I assume Sean's mom is a woman of color and I wonder what her experience was. It's easy to say people - especially women - should stay at home, but when you're a woman of color and your worthiness is already on trial daily, and domesticity isn't valued as ambitious or credible work, I understand why a professional environment can be a site for validation. I wished we could hear more about why Erica was 80% happy with her marriage as it seemed that childcare was pretty much the only benefit Sean was bringing to the marriage. I also thought there was something intellectually and/or emotionally dissonant from Sean regarding Erica and his mom. He wants to castigate and reprimand them for their ambition, but I'm certain he's reaped the financial rewards without complaint. I also wondered about Sean's financial situation. If his mom was a partner and a lawyer, that makes me assume she was financially well-off. I also would assume she left her children some type of trust or insurance policy. I also wish we could have gotten more about Erica's childhood and her current career. I would have been okay with fewer Nadine and Christine scenes if we could have gotten more Erica, Sean, Kristi, and Brock.

Kristi/Brock

I thought these two by far were the most interesting couple. The amount of contempt Kristi has for Brock is scary. There were times she looked at him as if every fiber of her being was in overdrive to not assault him. I honestly don't think Kristi, Sean, and Mal are that different. I think this is a case where gender helps Kristi to look a lot less abusive than she actually is. All three people want to endlessly harm their partner and demand their partner be silent about their pain and experiences. I thought it was maddening how Kristi transformed her cheating into a testament to women's liberation and even roped in Black Lives Matter protests to illustrate some grand transformation. While I had some issues with Brock's affected voice, I did understand the crux of his issue with Kristi. He fundamentally isn't safe with her. He gave her a boundary, and she broke that boundary. She was outright gleeful to discuss the harm breaking that boundary caused. "No means no" and she shows that disregarding his no is a form of power and liberation for her. That's not something that's going to change anytime soon. Hurting him empowers her. He essentially is not emotionally safe with her in his life.

I do think she has every right to be resentful of Brock's continued interaction with the church for 5 years; however, I think the crux of her anger, resentment, and contempt is the patriarchy. Brock, however, is not the patriarchy, and punishing him is not punishing the patriarchy. It's simply punishing her husband. I wish we could have gotten more about Brock's life. Maybe we did and I missed it. I would love to know what happened in his life that resulted in him thinking he deserves a wife who gleefully harms him.

 

I plan to do a rewatch, and as I said, I reserve the right to change my opinion on these initial thoughts.

 

 

[7-Zark-7]

I liked Nadine and Christine a lot and I agreed with Dr. Orna about how it would be great if they could get back together later in life.  I especially liked their body language with each other. They were very attentive with each other, which was a contrast to Sean and Erica.  I would notice how Erica would position herself on the sofa to turn her body towards Sean, while he would often sit and stare straight at the Dr. and rarely look in Erica's direction.

Edited May 16, 2023 by 7-Zark-7

[Door County Cherry]

I finally finished the season. I don't think my feelings changed much since the last time I posted with the last four episodes finally available to me.  

Nadine and Christine just feel like too much of a mess together but I hope they can be friends. I think Orna was a bit too close to them.  

Sean seemed to make progress but I don't trust it.

Josh and Natasha, on the other hand, did seem to make progress and understand themselves, and one another, better.

I had more sympathy for Kristi than others but some of that did wane.  I think she's justified in being upset Brock stayed with the church for as long as he did.  And I do think it's important when it comes to her affair.  But she needs therapy.  She doesn't know what she wants from Brock.  It can't be an open relationship.  And she can't promise not to try to hurt him.  And she keeps rejecting every version of a marriage he proposes because he's proposing it but she can't given him a version she wants--mainly because I think she wants to be able to change it on a dime based on her wants/needs and then pull it back once she gets that met.  In other words, she'd want an open relationship only for the time it'd take for her to be with another man and then to close it again.

Brock seems to understand that he's the representative of the church for her but she doesn't want to contend with that and what an impossible situation it sets up for their relationship. 

I almost wonder if it'd be easier for her to be with Brock if they were divorced than as a married couple. 

[oldCJ]

Sean hates women. Period.

Orna nodding as Erica says she is taking responsibility for using language more carefully around him? Infuriating. Erica is admitting she has resigned herself to being married to a gaslighting manipulator and blames herself for the effed up communication. Sean has not grown or changed in any positive way after couples therapy. I see third marriages in both of their futures. 

Orna’s automatic physical reaction when Christine said she was from Ramallah was telling. Turning and drawing away in her chair. Then she spent the rest of their sessions becoming too friendly and too enmeshed in the women’s stories.it was the only couple where she didn’t behave completely professional. It felt like it was the first time Orna ever actually saw a Palestinian as a person and she saw the pain and trauma that she was part of when she was in the Israeli army. This felt like she was looking to get something from the therapy as much as Christine was. 

Brock and Kristi need a divorce because right now their marriage is another thing the church did to her without her real consent. After Kristi figures herself out more, they could remarry if they want. But until she can get past punishing everyone she sees complicit in her traumatic experiences, Brock will only suffer more. 

Looking through the posts, I saw that update on Annie and Mau. Of course it turns out that they are $hitty people in real life.