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Designing Women - General Discussion


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I don't have Hulu, and I have the show on DVD, but I'm excited by this anyway as it may introduce the show to a new audience.  Pretty cool dropping it on Women's Equality Day, too.

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I've been dvr'ing Designing Women on some weird ass channel - 2 everyday at like 1am and 1:30 am for the last few months so I have been in the Designing Women frame of mind for the Hulu announcement.

I did say waaay earlier in the thread I didn't think the show held up after seeing two of probably the worst episodes, but after seeing a lot of more it actually does. And they addressed a lot of pretty progressive issues for the 80's

One thing that definitely is cringe-y is Julia's singing. I know Dixie Carter loved singing and the whole tale of getting to sing if Julia had to go a liberal rant but it's just bad old church lady warbling. 

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4 hours ago, Megan said:

.... 2 everyday at like 1am and 1:30 am.....

https://fetv.tv/

I had to stop watching once the dreadful Season Six began.  I realize that the cast departures were unavoidable, but the show really lost its way with Julia Duffy/Jan Hooks/Judith Ivey.  Independently, they were all fine actresses, but horribly mis-cast and mis-used. 

Seasons 3/4/5 were some of the best TV of that era. A great mix of silly and not-so-silly. And despite all the behind-the-scenes upheaval, the cast sparkled.

It's too bad they rushed into trying to re-create the foursome.  They should have added Sheryl Lee Ralph much much sooner, perhaps as a partner rather than trying to extend Meshach Taylor's 15 minutes of fame.   Alice Ghostley brought the best mix of charm and dizzy.  From what I recall, they rushed to get her back on the air when the Duffy/Hooks additions were spiraling toward disaster.  They should have never used Jan Hooks as Charlene's sister.  She would have played much better as a bookish know-it-all than some divorced country hayseed.

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13 hours ago, WhoaWhoKnew said:

That are still relevant, somehow! Julia's rants could be recited today verbatim and not feel dated at all. 

I've been told there are bars where people recite Julia's rants. Someone once told me I was a Yankee Julia Sugarbaker because I too have long winded rants about the sad state of affairs we are living in.  I took it as the utmost compliment.

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7 hours ago, blondiec0332 said:

I've been told there are bars where people recite Julia's rants. Someone once told me I was a Yankee Julia Sugarbaker because I too have long winded rants about the sad state of affairs we are living in.  I took it as the utmost compliment.

I, too, am a Yankee Julia Sugarbaker -- and a drinker, so I need to know where these bars are!

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Now that we've been blessed with the show on Hulu, I watched the one last night where they go on vacation and hire Ursula to watch the kids.  God, Suzanne is extra fabulous in that one.  "Take your big knockers and hit the road."

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40 minutes ago, TaraS1 said:

Now that we've been blessed with the show on Hulu, I watched the one last night where they go on vacation and hire Ursula to watch the kids.  God, Suzanne is extra fabulous in that one.  "Take your big knockers and hit the road."

I *loved* that line...and then she adjusted her tiara headband. Suzanne was always my favorite.

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2 hours ago, TaraS1 said:

Now that we've been blessed with the show on Hulu, I watched the one last night where they go on vacation and hire Ursula to watch the kids.  God, Suzanne is extra fabulous in that one.  "Take your big knockers and hit the road."

I love when Mary Jo is talking about wearing Suzanne and Ursula's bras on her head. Such a funny episode!

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Just now, Taryn74 said:

I love when Mary Jo is talking about wearing Suzanne and Ursula's bras on her head. Such a funny episode!

I fall out laughing every time at "Suzanne's fits me like a beanie" and just keep going.

I've been watching season two and three lately (on DVD), and I love the relationship between Suzanne and Reese.  He teases her, but there's real warmth in it; he's truly entertained by her.  I love after his heart attack when Julia thinks he looks pale and Suzanne thinks he looks tousled and sexy.  "I am obviously messing around with the wrong Sugarbaker sister."

And then when Julia is embarrassed because he says in front of Suzanne "the bottom half" of him still working, too, and he says horse feathers, Suzanne knows all about the bottom half of men.

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Dear lord I love this show so much. It's been years since I've actually watched an episode but I can still picture and quote certain scenes in my head. I need to get my daughter's hulu login info so I can watch while she's in classes I guess.

I NEED to rewatch the episode where the ladies go to redecorate for Monique and find out it's really a....house of pleasure. I shrieked watching that episode, I really did.

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I loved those awful but hilarious vacations they took together.  Just thought of the song that was playing when Julia was forced to dance with "Daddy"--And when we get behiiiiind close doors" (with Daddy singing along).  The look on her face was priceless.

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I just watched that episode @annzeepark914!  One of my favorites! 

But I came to the horrifying realization that the episodes seem to be edited. Unless I completely blacked out and missed it, Julia and Suzanne’s exchange about Charles Darwin being Suzanne’s yard man were totally cut out. Same for Mary Jo’s lines in the Ursula episode about wearing Ursula and Suzanne’s bras on her head. That’s really disappointing. 

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12 hours ago, annzeepark914 said:

I loved those awful but hilarious vacations they took together.  Just thought of the song that was playing when Julia was forced to dance with "Daddy"--And when we get behiiiiind close doors" (with Daddy singing along).  The look on her face was priceless.

I liked when they went to Graceland. Was it Mary Jo or Charlene who was eating all that food including the pecan log? 

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14 minutes ago, blondiec0332 said:

Mary Jo. Anytime the five of them were together it was so much fun. 

I've been rewatching this show, man, it was hilarious. While I wasn't a big fan of the last couple seasons they had their moments.  I laughed so hard at the episode when Darlene (Charlene's sister)was having a sleepover in her new dump apartment. 

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On 8/22/2019 at 5:57 PM, Megan said:

I've been dvr'ing Designing Women on some weird ass channel - 2 everyday at like 1am and 1:30 am for the last few months so I have been in the Designing Women frame of mind for the Hulu announcement.

I did say waaay earlier in the thread I didn't think the show held up after seeing two of probably the worst episodes, but after seeing a lot of more it actually does. And they addressed a lot of pretty progressive issues for the 80's

One thing that definitely is cringe-y is Julia's singing. I know Dixie Carter loved singing and the whole tale of getting to sing if Julia had to go a liberal rant but it's just bad old church lady warbling. 

Me too. I noticed one night when I couldn't sleep. It records every night at 3am. I'm now at the last season 😏 but I've really enjoyed watching this show again.

ETA : it's FeTV that is airing DW. I didn't even know I had that channel until a few weeks ago.

Edited by Coffeewinewater
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On 8/29/2019 at 1:07 PM, Coffeewinewater said:

While I wasn't a big fan of the last couple seasons they had their moments.  I laughed so hard at the episode when Darlene (Charlene's sister)was having a sleepover in her new dump apartment. 

"Carlene's Apartment" is not only the best episode of the last two seasons, it can hold its own with a lot of what aired in the earlier seasons.  I only have seasons 1-5 on DVD, so I haven't seen it in a long time, but I remember it quite fondly. 

Edited by Bastet
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6 minutes ago, Bastet said:

"Carlene's Apartment" is not only the best episodes of the last two seasons, it's can hold its own with a lot of what aired in the earlier seasons.  I only have seasons 1-5 on DVD, so I haven't seen it in a long time, but I remember it quite fondly. 

Yes! it really was a great episode.  I was surprised at how funny it was (just watched last week). 

I used to think the last season was better than it was. I never thought it was good but my memory told me it was ok. Well my mind lied to me. I ff more than I watch. I'm hoping the network replays it from the beginning.  I canceled my hulu months ago.

Edited by Coffeewinewater
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4 hours ago, Bastet said:
4 hours ago, Coffeewinewater said:

While I wasn't a big fan of the last couple seasons they had their moments.  I laughed so hard at the episode when Darlene (Charlene's sister)was having a sleepover in her new dump apartment. 

"Carlene's Apartment" is not only the best episodes of the last two seasons, it can hold its own with a lot of what aired in the earlier seasons.  I only have seasons 1-5 on DVD, so I haven't seen it in a long time, but I remember it quite fondly.

I don't think I ever laughed as hard as I did when Alison hands Anthony her bag and tells him he can carry it for her, and he drops it and goes "uh-huh, yo mama"

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I'm thinking of ordering dvd's.  I loved the character actors in this show (esp. the memorable actor who played Reggie Mac Dawson, and the peculiar wealthy man who was a client who adored Julia). When I looked up these actors & saw their agency photos (or lack of them), I wondered what the heck these talented people were doing today.  Do they have pensions, did they manage to get other industry-related jobs, etc. They were/are OTT talented actors.

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On 8/29/2019 at 7:13 PM, annzeepark914 said:

I loved the character actors in this show (esp. the memorable actor who played Reggie Mac Dawson,

His last name is Thomason and he has very few credits to his name, with two of them being this show and Hearts Afire, so I've always figured he's related to Harry. 

Suzanne learns her accountant has absconded with her money in season two, and we just see Reggie's photo (she has to give one of him to the cops, and it's a headshot he signed to her "May you find the kind of happiness money can't buy").  It's not until season three that they find Reggie working as the bellboy/piano player at a local hotel (he'd been last spotted in Bimini) -- the "Reggie Mac is taking his break now, THANKYOU" episode. 

So I assume they used Harry's fledgling actor relative's headshot in the season two episode and then brought him back for an actual role when they decided to revisit the swindling storyline with a Suzanne vs. Reggie Mac showdown.

Edited by Bastet
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On 8/22/2019 at 2:57 PM, Megan said:

One thing that definitely is cringe-y is Julia's singing. I know Dixie Carter loved singing and the whole tale of getting to sing if Julia had to go a liberal rant but it's just bad old church lady warbling. 

I agree.  I don't think they should have pandered to her by coming up with all these reasons for Julia to sing, period, but especially given her voice was nothing special.  A lot of fans seem to enjoy it, though. 

It wasn't so bad in real time, but watching multiple episodes in a row on DVD means a whole lot of Julia singing in one night, and it becomes unbearable to me.

Anyway, "bad old church lady warbling" was in my head last night as I watched "How Great Thou Art" -- it's one of my least-favorite moments of Julia singing, and I normally just move on to the next episode when I get to that scene at the end, but that means skipping the wonderful look of pride and joy on Charlene's face.  (Jean Smart is so killer at those -- I get chills every.single.time I watch her react to seeing Mavis and the kids at the back of the auditorium in the "Rowdy Girls" episode.)  So this time I decided to go ahead and watch for Charlene's face, because I could ignore the singing in favor of chuckling about the verbiage of your post.  Thanks!

On 8/28/2019 at 7:05 PM, annzeepark914 said:

I loved those awful but hilarious vacations they took together. 

I watched "Reservations for Eight" last night, the original vacation episode, and I wonder if they knew then they were going to make that a recurring storyline or if it's something they decided to do more of based on how well that one came off.  Because that's an absolute classic. 

“Now, the truth is we women haven't had enough power or money or confidence to start much of anything, but we sure as heck get the blame for everything. And I'll tell you something else: I love men; in particular, I love this one. But you cannot ignore history. And history has shown that, in general, it has been the men who have done the raping and the robbing and the killing and the war-mongering for the last two thousand years. It has been the men who have done the pillaging and the beheading and the subjugating of whole races into slavery. It has been the men who have done the law making, and the money making, and most of the mischief making. So if the world isn't quite what you had in mind, you have only yourselves to thank.”

Edited by Bastet
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3 hours ago, Bastet said:

(Jean Smart is so killer at those -- I get chills every.single.time I watch her react to seeing Mavis and the kids at the back of the auditorium in the "Rowdy Girls" episode.)

Totally agree. And to this day I cannot hear Ain't No Mountain High Enough without picturing her in that scene, and tearing up. No lie.

(I also picture a scene from Remember the Titans, but that's beside the point. Heh.)

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3 hours ago, Taryn74 said:

Totally agree. And to this day I cannot hear Ain't No Mountain High Enough without picturing her in that scene, and tearing up. No lie.

(I also picture a scene from Remember the Titans, but that's beside the point. Heh.)

Rowdy Girls is one my favorite episodes. This show always did a good job when they showcased a serious subject.

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16 hours ago, Bastet said:

. “Now, the truth is we women haven't had enough power or money or confidence to start much of anything, but we sure as heck get the blame for everything. And I'll tell you something else: I love men; in particular, I love this one. But you cannot ignore history. And history has shown that, in general, it has been the men who have done the raping and the robbing and the killing and the war-mongering for the last two thousand years. It has been the men who have done the pillaging and the beheading and the subjugating of whole races into slavery. It has been the men who have done the law making, and the money making, and most of the mischief making. So if the world isn't quite what you had in mind, you have only yourselves to thank.”

Damn this still applies and they still deny that they had anything to do with it. (shakes fist at the sky)

You guys there is an episode that addresses Trump's marriage to Marla Maples. And it's not the first time they mention him,  he is mentioned in season 1 (or maybe 2 or both/more?) It's like Simpsons-esque prediction or Dickens Christmas Carol warnings.

Also:

Appreciate the agreement that Julia is that Great Aunt that your Mom forces you to allow to sing at your 1983 - 1988 wedding while you wear a hat (or that V headpiece) with attached veil, your dress has big ass puff (or lace v wrist so many v’s in the 80’s) sleeves and a bow at the waist. The bridesmaids wear taffeta also with bows.

Or maybe her voice most closely resembles Scuttle in The Little Mermaid.

Edited by Megan
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15 hours ago, annzeepark914 said:

Love this ^^^^ Julia rant! And I sure agree re: Dixie's singing. The first time I heard her voice I just about jumped out of my skin. It was like fingernails on a blackboard. Don't know why they let her "warble" so frequently. 

Every time I think of Dixie Carter singing,  I also think of Jo saying to Blair on The Facts of Life, "if you love that song, why are you doing that to it?"😉

Edited by Coffeewinewater
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I watched "Bernice's Sanity Hearing" last night, and fondly remembered my then-roommate and I nearly wearing out our VHS recording of it.

"He said Bernice is not crazy.  But we are."  I love that drinking makes Bernice sharper, and she spends the whole episode telling the rest of them they need to get it together.

Mary Jo's demonstration of how a heavily-pregnant woman can put on her underwear is terrific, particularly that she shoves a pillow under her shirt for full effect. 

A co-worker is also a fan of the show, and if we have a case that might be going south on us, we always say something like "I'm afraid our entire case might be built around two Dicks and a hat" to each other for a moment of levity.

And, of course, there's Charlene's reaction to reading that droves of killer bees are headed towards the United States from South America and will arrive in three to four years:  "That is terrible. Can you imagine?  I bet our bees are scared to death."

It's another episode I cut off early, this time to avoid Julia's "May You Always" performance (there's even more of it in the credits -- stop the insanity!!), but other than that it's perfect.

Edited by Bastet
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One of the episodes I watched last night was the one in which Charlene goes to her first client meeting after having Olivia, and I completely let slide my why is the office manager meeting with a client? quibbling because the way Jean Smart plays Charlene's narrating of the disastrous events - falling asleep, crying upon being awakened because her breasts leaked while she was snoring, falling on her face while trying to escape because she put on her pantyhose so twisted she was walking like John Wayne, and gathering up the little firecrackers (baby suppositories) that flew out of her purse - is so much funnier than actually seeing it could have been.  Because she nails not just the humor, but the underlying feeling that she's now just a "Mom blob" incapable of being anything else.

And I love the argument between Charlene and Bill captured on the baby monitor, because they're so sickeningly sweet all the time - and I hate treacly, in anything, especially romantic relationships - it's nice to finally see something real. 

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Anthony's nervous laugh never fails to be funny, and is probably at its best in "Foreign Affairs" when he pretends to be Consuela at the INS.  "I'm sorry, my teeth are enormous."

Julia's response (as always, elevated by Dixie Carter's delivery) when Charlene wonders what's keeping Suzanne and Anthony is fantastic: 

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3 hours ago, Bastet said:

Julia's response (as always, elevated by Dixie Carter's delivery) when Charlene wonders what's keeping Suzanne and Anthony is fantastic: 

I would say it's one of my faves but let's face it, everything on this show is one of my faves. Ha ha ha!

"A six-foot black man dressed like Hazel just left here with Suzanne...." LMAO.

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I was so happy last week when Hulu gave the the heads up about Designing Women now streaming.  I was too young to have watched the first season or two when it was originally airing but I know I started watching it "live" at some point in season three or four.  I'm sure most of it just went over my head but I do remember watching and even following some of the tabloid stuff about Delta Burke leaving the show.  And then when I was in high school this played all the time on, I believe, Lifetime and I would record and watch every episode in a big block on the weekends (my original binge watching!).  

Anyway, I spent most of the long weekend watching.  I thought about just watching some of my favorite episodes but it was way too hard to choose so I just decided to watch from the beginning.  It really amazes me how much of this show I can repeat almost verbatim.  And not just the always wonderful Julia rants but little throw away lines.  This show has clearly shaped a big part of my own humor.  

Edited by lefawn
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On 8/31/2019 at 12:23 AM, Megan said:

You guys there is an episode that addresses Trump's marriage to Marla Maples. And it's not the first time they mention him,  he is mentioned in season 1 (or maybe 2 or both/more?) 

Being just one disc shy of watching all of seasons two through five*, I have realized they mention him a lot (as a famous rich guy who likes to brag about being rich).  I never noticed it back when he was just some NYC gasbag, but it sure sticks out now.

*I usually start at the beginning, but Charlene bugs me in season one.  This time I put in a season three disc when I couldn't sleep, and then as the nights went on I wound up watching all of that season, then season two, then four, and I'm now almost done with five (the last season I have on DVD). 

I'll watch season one next, but, wow, does watching seasons 2-5 Charlene without season 1 Charlene being fresh in my mind improve my enjoyment of her.  I always liked her in those seasons, but in previous binge watches the dislike for her criminal gullibility in season one being so recent lingered a bit and the times in which she was similar to that bothered me.  This time they didn't.

Since several of us are re-watching the show, I thought maybe some might like to join me in re-reading the great article Yahoo ran several years ago, in which Linda Bloodworth-Thomason and all the surviving original cast members were interviewed about the show in honor of its 30th anniversary: 'Designing Women' at 30: A Tribute to the Four 'Man-Loving Feminists' Who Changed TV

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Since I’ve got Hulu and am going to rewatch - there’s an episode where some woman asks Anthony in a condescending way if he’s related to Jackie Kennedy and he gives a fantastic answer, name checking the whole family and ending with “I’ll tell Jackie you were asking about her, she always appreciates that the little people still care.”  What episode is it?

I just watched the pilot and it was cut really weirdly - are these edited? Julia’s speech to Ray Don is still perfect. 

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6 minutes ago, ML89 said:

Since I’ve got Hulu and am going to rewatch - there’s an episode where some woman asks Anthony in a condescending way if he’s related to Jackie Kennedy and he gives a fantastic answer, name checking the whole family and ending with “I’ll tell Jackie you were asking about her, she always appreciates that the little people still care.”  What episode is it?

"The Incredibly Elite Bona Fide Blue Blood Beaumont Driving Club".  Anthony blows that snotty guy away so wonderfully!

8 minutes ago, ML89 said:

I just watched the pilot and it was cut really weirdly - are these edited?

Someone upthread said the Hulu episodes are edited, yes.

That's a shame.  I wonder if any of the music is replaced, too, because they used a fair bit of it for a sitcom.

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2 minutes ago, Bastet said:

"The Incredibly Elite Bona Fide Blue Blood Beaumont Driving Club".  Anthony blows that snotty guy away so wonderfully!

Someone upthread said the Hulu episodes are edited, yes.

That's a shame.  I wonder if any of the music is replaced, too, because they used a fair bit of it for a sitcom.

Thanks!

Not sure about the music but the title sequence seems to be the same for all the early seasons. 

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Season five is a bit weak compared to its predecessors.  Still great, just not as sharp on the whole.  And there were a lot more instances in that season of them repeating lines from early episodes.  They've always done that some - a touch I appreciated, since people do that in real life - but there was more of it in season five.

Shows used the same actor in different roles frequently back then, but I don't remember them doing it much on this show, which makes it especially distracting to me that the actor playing Buford, the umpire when Julia and Mary Jo coach little league, is the one who played Billy Boy Swine, the jerk in Anthony's laundry room who beats him up -- the episodes are only half a season apart!

I started in on season one last night, and, wow, the way they talk about Mason never fails to make me see red.  The guy is fat, yes, but they speak of him - in that episode and in the one where he's moving to Tokyo, so it's not as if they learn their lesson - as if he's a size not normally seen in nature.  I mean, jaws drop when he walks in!  Come on, people his size are walking around everywhere.  Even for the '80s, it was ridiculous.

On a happier note, I had forgotten Boyd (the obnoxious "eight best breasts in Atlanta" decorator who's always overcompensating lest anyone think he's gay because of his profession) was originally played by Stephen Tobolowsky.  I love him in everything.

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11 minutes ago, Bastet said:

On a happier note, I had forgotten Boyd (the obnoxious "eight best breasts in Atlanta" decorator who's always overcompensating lest anyone think he's gay because of his profession) was originally played by Stephen Tobolowsky.  I love him in everything.

OMG...loved that actor!  He played that role so well (who replaced him...in the episode where they were asked to do some decor updating at a bowling alley and had to compete with Boyd's company?)  I think Tobolowsky also was the sorta homeopathic quack in a Seinfeld in which George wanted to avoid having his tonsils removed.

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11 minutes ago, annzeepark914 said:

OMG...loved that actor!  He played that role so well (who replaced him...in the episode where they were asked to do some decor updating at a bowling alley and had to compete with Boyd's company?)  I think Tobolowsky also was the sorta homeopathic quack in a Seinfeld in which George wanted to avoid having his tonsils removed.

Yep, he was Tor.  He's also one of the costars of the wonderful One Day at a Time reboot and was the state detective in Thelma & Louise, but he's been in just about everything - he has more than 250 acting credits in TV and film.

Ritch Shydner played Boyd in "Tough Enough" (the bowling alley episode).

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I watched "Monette" last night (where Charlene finds out her high school friend is a madam) and disturbed my cat laughing at Charlene when they ask her to sit down because they want to talk to her about Monette.  She gets increasingly flustered as she says, "Oh no, I don't like the sound of that.  Every time you tell me 'Charlene, sit down' it's bad news.  Just tell me standing up.  What is it?  What?  What?  Monette's a man."

The "Monette's a carpenter?" line when they tell her she's practicing the world's oldest profession seems to get more attention, but it's the moment before it that really does it for me - and it's all in the delivery.  Unfortunately, I can't find a clip of it to post, but here's Julia's "I will not decorate a whorehouse" rant:

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"Monette's a man!" is the first thing that comes to mind when I think of that episode. They all had really great delivery, honestly, but a lot of Charlene's lines stick with me even when they aren't exactly jokes. Like the episode when she buys one of those ridiculous sandwich makers and fills it with white bread and canned pie filling and says, "In just a minute, we are gonna have ... apple pie!" And later too, when she takes a bite and just says, "Oh." Does anyone remember which episode that is?

I think Dixie Carter had a beautiful voice though. I listen to a ton of choral and operatic music, and her style of soprano was perfect for that. The only performance I remember not caring for was in "Keep the Home Fires Burning" with Charlene's WWII dream. That one was a bit too corny.

I've just been picking and choosing my favorites since the show dropped on Hulu, and it's such a treat to be able to call up a favorite rant or scene instead of having to pull out DVDs or try to find a video online. It sucks that they're edited, but I'm just happy to see them.  I may start watching for an hour every morning while I get ready, followed by an hour of Golden Girls, like that old Lifetime lineup.

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Yes...Keep the Home Fires Burning was OTT corny. So was the episode re: the night Charlene's baby was born (well, not as corny, but just not a lot of fun, IMO). 

Must generate a better DW memory. OK...I just thought of the episode when Payne came home for a visit & brought his "older" girlfriend along. Poor Julia could not dredge up a rant and crawled into bed. I haven't seen that one in years so, who took on the nasty gf & sent her packing?

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2 hours ago, annzeepark914 said:

OK...I just thought of the episode when Payne came home for a visit & brought his "older" girlfriend along. Poor Julia could not dredge up a rant and crawled into bed. I haven't seen that one in years so, who took on the nasty gf & sent her packing?

You may be mis-remembering. Julia didn't exactly "take on" Primmy, but she didn't roll over either. She was very passive aggressive at first, taking little digs at her masked as jokes. But at the end of the visit, she got Primmy in a room alone and pretty much went off on her. Payne overheard and realized that Primmy was basically using him as her annual fall fling, and then he acted like he knew the whole time and just wanted to experience it for himself. I think they still ended up leaving together, but at least Julia knew that it wasn't anything serious and they'd probably break up soon.

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Quote

The only performance I remember not caring for was in "Keep the Home Fires Burning" with Charlene's WWII dream. That one was a bit too corny.

I know Charlene was worried when Bill went off to war, but my God she really needed to take a chill pill. She talks about all the stuff she has been sending him and she hasn't heard back from him. Um, he was in combat. It's hard to pause a war to dash off a note to the honey telling her how good her snickerdoodles were.

I never cared much for Bill. He just seemed kind of bland.

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