[S03.E02: The President Kissed Me]

1 hour ago, qtpye said:

I just wanted to highlight this because it was so well said. I remember growing up and many women feeling that they were nothing without a boyfriend or husband no matter how impressive their accomplishments were in other areas. 

Thank you @qtpye. I appreciate that because it’s been a lot of years of thinking and observation and trying to figure out how women work emotionally. 

[S03.E02: The President Kissed Me]

20 hours ago, AllyB said:

I'm a few years younger than Monica. I was 19-20 when the story broke and a journalism student. My main feeling on it, with the pomposity of a journalism student, was that it wasn't a story. That while I don't like cheating, ultimately they were two consenting adults and only they, Hilary and to some extent Chelsea, really should be caring about it. As an independent sexually active young woman, I viewed Monica as similar to me in that she was a woman exercising her own sexual choices. And while I would not make the decision to have an affair with a married man, because I don't want to play a part in causing his wife pain, I just saw it as a woman making a choice to have sex with a man she found attractive. And while I did not find Bill attractive, I could see that he was obviously charismatic. I had sex with men I found attractive and there was nothing wrong with that, so I couldn't comprehend how a woman older than me could have been a victim of a man abusing and extreme power imbalance. 
 

As a woman in my 40s, out the other side of an abusive marriage with a man I began a relationship with 23, I have a very, very different take on their 'relationship.' She was 22, too young to even have a fully developed brain. He was 'the most powerful man in the world,' over twice her age and her boss. While I'm not suggesting that she was a completely naive victim who is blameless for her role, the fact is that there was a power imbalance there that would overwhelm so many in her position. Couple that with the fact that with his clear charm and the fact that his history has accusations from women of him being a man who at best has a massive sense of entitlement to sexual gratification from the women around him. And I do see Monica as more victim than sexually active woman making a bad but free choice.
 

And honestly, how hard would it be for any woman to turn down a president? When so much of Women’s self esteem is based on how men view us. The positive sexual regard of a man, the love of a man is given as our raison d’etre. And it is. That’s not right but it is another of those assumptions so believed we don’t even see them. The love of a man will remove the stain of being female from us. We’re slaves to love. I doubt very much that I could’ve turned down a president at that age. And the difference in power, maturity, life experience and sexual entitlement are so vast they’re barely even comprehensible. 
Monica wasn’t consenting to be Clinton’s anxiety relief and sex toy object, Monica was consenting to some sort of relationship that in all likelihood never actually existed. Clinton wanted her to be the discreet equivalent of a live sex doll. They weren’t even on the same page.

[S03:E03 Not to Be Believed]

22 hours ago, cardigirl said:

 

 

 

I think the real issue is that women were not viewed as complete individuals of any consequence. None of the women shown so far have any real power or agency over their lives. Sure, they could and did have jobs, and some of them were even in the White House, but were they running things? 

Clinton felt he had the right as the mostpowerfulmanintheworld to do whatever he wanted, and it was no one else's business. He also didn't really think about how it might affect anyone else, and certainly not the women involved. So of course he didn't think at all about choosing carefully. Maybe he even thought he felt love for Monica. But he wasn't acting in her best interests. (Many men felt that way about women, though. Women were commodities and should be grateful, not problematic.) 

 

As far as settling with Paula, or the other women who had come forward earlier, I thought the strategy of settling was viewed as admitting there was truth to their accusations. 

There it is, the biggest unexamined assumption in our society: that women are commodities that men absolutely have the right to pursue if not the all out right of access. I believed this subconsciously myself for most of my life. This is what objectification is; it has nothing to do with relative looks or femininity. It is the idea that women as a set are here for the service and delectation of men. Scapegoatings like the one ML suffers to this day are to remind us all what happens when we fail in our perceived duties or when we cause problems. Monica’s experience also highlights internalized misogyny and how women will kill one of their own to save themselves. Look at the reaction of the feminists at the time. Feminists that should have known better. The depth of the vitriol and hatred is what fascinates me, until I remember that it is an actual human being who suffered this. And then I’m just sad. 

[Y: The Last Man - General Discussion]

1 hour ago, BasilSeal said:

There's a difference though in a functioning society populated entirely by women, and an apocalyptic even which only women survive. Before the survivors think about reforming the patriarchy they have to think about the lack of power, food, medical care and the collapse of law and order.

As i said previously, i don't think the message her is that women aren't capable of running the world without men, half the worlds's population has died, regardless of gender that level of death would be a global catastrophe. Leadership structures are destroyed, critical individuals with critical skills are lost, there aren't enough people left to make everything work any more and there are a shit load of dead bodies everywhere and everyone is grieving.

Women are demonstrably less violent than men, the majority of violent crime is committed by men, the question is whether there is something inherent in women that makes this so or whether this is simply an outcome dictated by men being on the whole physically stronger, and also men and women reacting to social expectations regarding their respective behaviours. Once you remove men, and also remove most social constraints by creating an existential threat to the survivors and their families in the form of social breakdown and general chaos, i'm not convinced that an entirely female cohort would behave any better than one made up of both genders.

I'm an equal opportunities pessimist, i think an all female apocalypse could result in just as much shitty behaviour as a mixed gendered one.

Shitty behavior absolutely. But I’m not convinced it would be the same shitty behavior. Someone else described the characters in The Last Man as men with boobs rather than women and that’s my main criticism. That none of these female characters seem female. They’re men with boobs and that just leaves me kind of meh about the whole thing. And I love post apocalyptic media. Graphic novels generally aren’t my thing but I read all of these before they were famous because of it. Same feeling. And I haven’t rushed to watch the next episodes, which is telling. Normally I’d be right there for a show that was even average. I wish this was better. 

[S01.E02: Happy Returns]

Well, I’ll keep watching. I’ve always liked Jeff Daniels and Maura Tierney and I’ve always liked a gritty small town mystery, but this one has some difficulties in tone and style. 
The costumes and set design are hitting the old fashioned hill billy thing too hard. I know the joke about Pennsylvania is that it’s Philly at one end and Pittsburg at the other and Alabama in between. And that’s true but it’s not this true. That wedding was like someone watched the Deer Hunter too many times and tried to recapture that feeling. Except that that feeling wasn’t right for a contemporary time period. I can deal with small and provincial and economically depressed and even possibly dying in the setting of a story but this one also indulged their time travel fantasies without setting the entire thing in the seventies or eighties. And that cash tree was just creepy. 

[S03:E03 Not to Be Believed]

13 hours ago, chick binewski said:

I think while this was unraveling IRL that was one question that kept coming up - how Clinton could be so monumentally reckless at every turn. This wasn't a discreet 30ish political-savvy professional: Lewinsky was incredibly tenacious and how Clinton didn't see this biting him in the ass shows his bravado.

I can't say for sure how much input Lewinsky has in the show, but I'd be curious what Betty Currie - another Clinton casualty - thinks of her almost unaware yet supportive portrayal in the scandal. It really bothered me that they ushered in another one-note female character who might deserve a little better.

Very good point @chick binewski. Even a slightly older woman would have understood the absolute need for discretion more than a naive young woman would have. Clinton was reckless. And for a man known for his charisma and his brains, thoughtless. Yes, yes, sex makes us all stupid but can you really combine that kind of lack of thought with any job that has serious can’t screw up responsibilities? 
I feel bad for Currie. Reading you can definitely see that there’s no way that she didn’t know what was going on, even putting discreet part of the job blinders on her eyes. You’re right that it would be fabulous to see more of her and what she thought and felt as she’s making calls and not logging them and ferrying presents and letters back and forth. Wondering if this has always been part of the job. Interaction with the secret service agents who were forced to be helpful and complicit too. Seriously, how did Currie and the agent on duty never raise their eyebrows at each other when they’re getting Monica in and out of the Oval Office. I know in Curries position I couldn’t have resisted the biggest possible eye roll at least once. 
Finally, it seems that Clinton had had a discreet office girlfriend that got furloughed during the government shutdown and was never replaced. Clinton was at loose ends. Since to this day we don’t know who she is I think we can say she was discreet. 
 

12 hours ago, BoogieBurns said:

Beanie's body is undermining the complete nonsense of tabloids calling Monica overweight/obese. Beanie is overweight (BMI wise) and plus sized. Monica wasn't and isn't. They are doing their best to film her from her thinnest angles, but Beanie wasn't the right girl for the role. And I love Beanie and her body! 

I remember Leno doing a monologue (or 50) about how fat Monica was, and my chubby lil pre-teen self was really upset. She was not in bad shape! I was like "if she's fat, everyone is fat"

 

IMO, this is really what Monica was pilloried for. Monica was punished for being a fat girl. (Not that she is but that is how she and any woman over 120 pounds is perceived.) It wasn’t that she was a mistress it’s that she wasn’t the right kind of mistress. Too fat, too smart, too bourgeois. I read recently that access  to beautiful women isn’t a perk of power for men, it is one of the main points of power. If Clinton had gone for a leggy blonde I honestly don’t think we’d be watching this television show. Less important but still relevant, if Monica hadn’t been of the class that generally fills the bureaucratic positions in Washington. Clinton fooled around with a woman that was too much like peoples daughters and for some reason the response was not sympathy but the most brutal rage and contempt possible. 
@BoogieBurns Yes, we’re all fat pretty much. I’m glad you were angry about it all those years ago too. I was as well. But I’m betting we all learned the object lesson. I know I did. 

[Y: The Last Man - General Discussion]

@Chicago Redshirt

Its not that they’re not to my liking so much as they’re poorly thought out. I can appreciate a point of view that doesn’t match my own if it’s intelligent and well argued. Sure women would keep some of what worked but I think we’d innovate too. We would have to just because of the circumstances. And in early days we would be hard pressed just to keep things organized and running. Some new traditions might grow just out of necessity. 
The socialization accounting for less violence in women has been tested in other circumstances such as when society has temporarily broken down during war. It seems to hold. Female violence is generally limited by the context and is usually defensive. Hopefully the series will address some of the less thought out aspects of the comics. But that remains to be seen for me. Except for 355 nobody else is really standing out. 

[S03.E02: The President Kissed Me]

2 hours ago, Picture It. Sicily said:

Honestly, this is the argument that makes me feel like Monica is full of crap and blaming her failure to launch on others. No one on earth was willing to hire her? Seriously? She's the only political scandal mistress who society couldn't let move on with her life? She had twenty years of little to no press. If she couldn't get her life together, part of her didn't want to. 

It’s my understanding that in one of her repeated attempts to get her life together that she set sail for London and graduate work at the London School of Economics. New degree in hand she did attempt to get hired. This is also at a point when she was out of the public eye. Nobody would hire her. But in some ways your point is well taken because I did read of her turning down job offers that the president got her. I was a little shocked and this is the difference between a hungry person and someone with choices. I would never have turned down a job at the UN in my early twenties. I would have gone as an entry level secretary with a skip in my step. This was before the scandal broke and Monica wasn’t poison yet but it did raise an eyebrow when I read it today. So I will think about what you said. But the ban has never been lifted. Never. 

I learned that there has been a mention of the Lewinsky scandal in some newspaper in some part of the world Every Day since the story broke. Every day. So yeah, I think we can safely say that no, society isn’t letting Monica move on. And she has tried. 
The interesting question I want to ask is how is a scapegoat chosen? I wonder if there are patterns. 

55 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

I really don't believe that there was this international conspiracy to deny Monica a job or a husband. Marriage and children aren't in the cards for everyone who wants them, even for "regular" people. And a lot of people who have family money choose not to work a traditional, full-time job. Monica could have withdrawn completely from the public eye if the fallout from the Clinton affair was that traumatizing for her, but she didn't, so obviously there are some aspects of media attention that she enjoys.

Mentioned in the press somewhere in the world every day since the story broke. Countless jokes for comedians. Many books. 125 rap song references. I’m not saying that there’s anything directing this but it is a society wielding the flog. Your point about the media gives me something to ponder. She did leave the public eye for a decade this century but you’re right, she does seem to want that kind of job and A-List Media Life. I’ll think about that. Not that there’s necessarily anything wrong with that. But what else is left to her? She tried for a normal life and got blackballed. She’s only been able to make money on her notoriety. 

While writing this I figured out what bothers me about Beanie’s performance. It isn’t the right kind of innocence and naïveté. Beanie is playing Monica like she’s a farm girl from somewhere. Monica was immature and had issues and was naive but it would have been a different flavor of naive. She was also from upper middle class Los Angeles. I don’t see any of that in Beanie’s portrayal. 

[S07.E04: The Circumcision]

Those are really good points @Bastet. I rushed to judgment a little. Yeah, marrying in crisis is a horror show and the regrets always seem to come at leisure but you’re right that attempting to find a way for things to work is admirable. Especially if we really want marriage to look functionally different. 

[Y: The Last Man - General Discussion]

Agent 355 is the most compelling character. It’s like she dropped in from another show. 
 

On 9/20/2021 at 8:33 PM, KaveDweller said:

Hero really is terrible. She's being pretty awful to Sammy.....why not just tell him she doesn't want to see her mother, rather than dragging him around pretending. Also, you'd think she could rise above her mommy issues to ensure her own survival and tell her mother she's alive.

I won't even get into the fact that she killed a guy in the first episode. So he would have died on his own a few hours later....she still showed he was capable of killing someone.

Hero killing her lover was just unrealistic to me, even by the standards of fiction. Honestly though this lines up with the misogyny of the entire franchise wrapped in faux feminism. It would be pretty difficult for a woman to kill a man accidentally in the circumstances shown. Just more lack of realism. Reading the comments here it seems many people are  reacting to the ridiculous and conflicting assumptions that the source material and the show make about people and the world. 
For starters it’s assumed that women would do everything men did except stupider and worse with less efficient outcomes. There’s absolutely no creativity in this series in terms of imagining what a world suddenly emptied of men would be like. How women would react? Nothing. Women keep all male social systems and are even more violent. Uh huh. I guess that the fact that males commit 92 percent of all violence and violent crime just doesn’t effect things. Uh huh. What would happen in a sexed apocalypse with the far from perfect but demonstrably less violent sex the survivors? That’s an interesting question but the writers aren’t even trying to answer it. The show falls apart if you look at it too hard and it’s difficult to miss the misogyny and the muddled lack of thought. Every fictional world, no matter how fantastic, needs a coherent philosophy and worldview underpinning it even if it’s never stated explicitly. The Last Man lacks this and is contradictory. I think this is a part of why people’s response is so lukewarm.  

[S07.E04: The Circumcision]

I agree that Grace is being squirrelly with Nick and that Nick is pushy. But if she didn’t want to live with him she shouldn’t have married him. But it really is difficult to identify much less communicate your genuine desires in very close emotional relationships. 
 

On 8/18/2021 at 2:45 PM, Roccos Brother said:

Whoever came up with this adult circumcision storyline should be fired. It would have to be a life-or-death situation for me to voluntarily go through that as an adult, just due to the pain alone. Bud seems all too willing to chop off a hugely significant part of his genitalia that he's had (and I assume, enjoyed having) his entire life. Also, eczema isn't some viral infection, it's a lifelong auto-immune condition that typically flares up seasonally (I'm speaking from experience). Cutting off pieces of your body wouldn't make it go away. How did this ever get greenlit?

Otherwise, a pretty good season so far. But once again, the writing quality between the storylines for the children and the main cast is miles apart.

Circumcision is traditionally performed at eight days of age in the Jewish tradition. However, one of the requirements for male converts to Judaism is circumcision. So I don’t see any reason why a bris couldn’t have been performed at whatever Bud’s age was when he was adopted. I completely agree that except for stark medical necessity that most men wouldn’t have done this. Not to get controversial but men do lose a lot with this procedure. 
Which brings me to the whole way both Bud and Coyotes adoption stories have been handled. First, they haven’t made a lick of sense (is Bud really African from Africa? Because there wasn’t a lot of adoption out of Africa at the time they were born. And why saddle him with that name if he isn’t?) 

Your point is well taken @Roccos Brother. I think the writers take their assumptions and prejudices and things they thought they learned watching Lifetime movies and consider it research. Especially when it comes to Bud and Coyotes storylines. Getting circed to cure eczema makes just as much (non)sense as anything else they’ve written for the guys. 
Oh, it’s nice to see Grace and Frankie but I felt cheated by the short season, even while feeling that it’s time to bring the story to a close. Somehow these four episodes didn’t work for me. The characters felt like caricatures and the storylines felt shopworn. 

[S03:E03 Not to Be Believed]

16 hours ago, LADreamr said:

I bet Clinton is as scary and threatening when he's mad, as he is charismatic when he's flirting.  Linda's orgasm over seeing her name in print was its own kind of sad.  She so needed the limelight, she'd sell out anyone for a moment of it.

Billy Eichner was great.  I didn't even realize it was him until I saw the credits.  Even when I watched it back, it was impressive.  He lost himself in that ass.

That’s a very good point; charisma can partake of both the dark and light in a person’s character. That’s given me a lot to think about. 

Jeez, this is how we got the Drudge Report? And it started because the guy wanted to be a Humphrey Bogart type noir reporter? I wish Drudge had stuck with the quirky nostalgia. 

1 hour ago, xhoipolloix said:

Bill and Monica are both so cringey. Did he really think she wouldn't tell anybody? 

That got me too. Especially the line about how both Monica and Clinton were highly emotional and volatile. It would be a long shot for anyone in a relationship with somebody emotionally unavailable to not have at least one confidante, but adding that emotional typology? It does make you wonder why he never thought about it. Especially because the mistress generally has nothing to do but wait around for the phone to ring and obsess about their lover. Young women in these situations will confide. And a young woman with the self esteem and spine to keep that kind of a secret would probably either not appeal (doesn’t set off the predator instincts) or wouldn’t get involved with a married man in the first place. I’m speaking of married men not the most powerful man in the world. 
I did like the actress playing Ann Coulter, more than I generally like Ann Coulter. Wow, a lot of people built their careers on the destruction of Lewinsky’s life. That truth isn’t the focus but it is coming through in spite of the writing. Hmm, I’m thinking some of the problem with the show is that the writers and producers aren’t sure exactly what story they’re telling. 

[S03.E02: The President Kissed Me]

22 hours ago, GussieK said:

Monica has never been married.  I feel bad for her, in that she could likely never find a man who wants to be known as the husband of President Clinton's notorious mistress. 

I learned that Monica has never married, never had kids, even though she says she wanted both. Even when she went to London for graduate school and a new start she has had trouble getting a job. Monica has had to rely on her parents financially for much of her life, I learned. I’m appalled. Dear God it seriously would have been kinder if we’d just publicly executed this woman. Not because she deserved it but because what was done to Monica is the very definition of the punishment not fitting the crime. Monica lost pretty much everything in her entire life forevermore because of this. Excepting Hester Prynne or Tess ( who’re fictional!) I don’t recall another mistress getting this kind of treatment. I don’t know how the woman is still sane. It’s like she survived her own murder. 
Worst of all? It isn’t even the adultery for which Monica is being punished, not really, it’s that Monica, beautiful as she is, didn’t fit the physical definition of a powerful man’s mistress. Think about what was said at the time. I feel so bad for this woman. She’s 48. She isn’t having children at this point. Even if she met someone tomorrow and married, what ten to twelve good years before old age starts to set in? No memories of a lifetime together. No career or vocation that allowed her to work and grow as a person. No income. To this day the only money she is allowed to make surrounds this one incident. For Monica no memories of a life at all. Just her constant struggle to survive this experience, that never ends. 
I have personal history that gives me special empathy both for being scapegoated and for being a plump and pretty woman and just how much everyone hates you for that. Back in the nineties I refused to read the Starr report as my own personal protest and what little support I could give a woman I didn’t know and for whom I couldn’t yet articulate the reasons for my compassion and outrage at her situation. 
We destroyed this woman utterly as a society and as the individuals that pulled the levers and set the satanic mills in motion. We all know that not all “royal” mistresses are treated this badly either. Hell, there are some women who would still be dining out on the wink of their affair with a powerful man. 
As for the show itself? Im going with mediocre so far. Beanie isn’t working for me and I’d like more nuance in the portrayal of Linda Tripp. Im still not getting much of an idea of her motives. But I’m grateful to the show for making me revisit such a public scapegoating and excoriation. It’s really making me think. 

[S1.E06:]

Who knew there were so many people in their seventies still holding professorships? Granted, it has been well over twenty years since I was at a university so the professors I knew in their forties and fifties would be in their seventies now. If this is the case, why the hell aren’t they retiring? I know college professor is one of those careers that falls into the nice work if you can get it category but I’ve never gotten the feeling that it is the kind of vocation where you want to die in harness as with some physician scientists I’ve known. A professor that was a true scholar would welcome retirement as time with their books and writing unsullied by the demands of academia. I don’t understand why people wouldn’t retire. For so many reasons, only one of which is allowing the next two generations behind you to progress, this just seems crazy to me. Thank you to the posters who’ve seen these creatures on the hoof. 

[S03.E02: The President Kissed Me]

On 9/15/2021 at 9:58 AM, LADreamr said:

Also, it wasn't just his position and power.  He has a magnetism that I've even heard a number of straight men who have met him say that they felt it too, and completely understand the effect he has on some women.

I remember all of this happening at the time.  I worked at a law firm in LA then, and Monica's first lawyer came in to our firm to work with one of our partners.  His energy was so slimy I couldn't be anywhere near him.  Made me feel even worse for her, that she seemed to be let down by everyone around her.

After this episode last night, I went down a rabbit hole of videos of news coverage, watching the breaking news of their involvement, and then her interviews, and her HBO special (which was only a few years later).  She was not unhinged.  She was poised, articulate, and intelligent. She had been through a lot as a teenager, and hadn't healed from any of that yet, especially in regards to her self-esteem, and then she gets validation from Clinton, and everything that came with that.  Of course it was addictive and intoxicating.

@LADreamr

This is very interesting stuff, thank you for some inside scoop. Because oh how I remember this! I felt so bad for her. I still feel bad for her. I’m about five years older and the same physical type, so every headline and late night comedian joke and comment felt like it burned me too. I felt at the time that she must have been naive and troubled and that she thought he loved her. With all of her sophistication she didn’t perceive that clearly. Not many could truly say no to the leader of the free world unless he was a complete troll of some sort and I too have heard tales of the Clinton charisma. 

Good grief, that’s Clive Owen? Well. He certainly has the smarmy nailed but something isn’t fitting Owen quite right because you wouldn’t think that Clive Owen would have trouble channeling his inner sexy. He’s done ugly sexy too, I’m thinking of Closer but none of that bite here. I hate that as a society we destroyed Monica Lewinsky and did so pretty much without mercy. Yes, I know she’s married and still wealthy but she is forever held in contempt and in ways other mistresses have not. Speaking of charisma, Monica had plenty to go with all of that beauty. 

On 9/15/2021 at 2:20 PM, Clawdel said:

Monica doesn't come off as unhinged to me. She comes across as a young woman with serious emotional problems and bipolar disorder, which I have been living with since I was 18.

I was the same age as Monica when this scandal erupted. Here's what she and I have in common: hypersexuality caused by the chemical imbalance, poor impulse control, erratic judgement, extreme risk-taking, obsessive behavior, low self-esteem, mood swings, and compulsive eating disorders such as restricting and binging, weight fluctuations, and terrible sleep hygiene. Early onset bipolar disorder happens in the late teens to early twenties. Manic depressives can be charming, effervescent, outgoing, and bright. They can also come from turbulent childhoods and dysfunctional families. Monica's inner child was really running a 23-year-old woman's life, when every decision you make can impact your career and relationships.

I remember when Monica did her 20/20 interview with Barbara Walters, she said she was in therapy and on anti-depressants. I hope a mood stabilizer was part of her treatment. I listened to all of the tapes when they came out in the 1990's and I could hear so much that sounded familiar when she was irritable, tearful, and downright angry.

When Clinton was "repenting" by seeking counsel from Billy Graham and going to church with him family, Bible in hand, Betty Ford said it right, he's a classic sex addict. Compulsive behavior can wreck a person's life and it also impacted Hilary's presidential campaigns!

People suffering from the ups and downs of bipolar disorder and stress can easily be victimized by predators like Linda Tripp, because the chaos in our heads and personal lives interfere with out ability to use good judgement, discretion, and intuition. When that scandal hit, Monica's mom was terrified that she would commit suicide.

Uh, yeah. I had a goodly portion of that list nailed in my twenties. Are you saying symptoms like that might be problematic? Trauma is the root of a lot of these things too as the work of Gabor Mate shows so clearly. Poor Monica, she definitely wasn’t mature and wasn’t perceiving things with clarity. There I liked her much savvier and more stable best friend. Her character isn’t a misogynist portrait. Even at the time it was clear that there was a lot going on here in everyone’s emotional reactions. 
 

@BrindaWalsh You’re so right that cringe doesn’t cover having low self esteem, especially in the contests that women are still told are the only ones that matter, namely having the love of a man and being beautiful in the socially prescribed way. I always thought that Monica wanted live from Clinton and thought that she was getting at least a little. Clinton’s purported response to Monica’s declaration of live “That means a lot to me” tells us everything we need to know about where his head was. 

How did this get made? I can’t imagine that the Clintons are thrilled. 

[Angel - General Discussion]

15 hours ago, sinkwriter said:

The one character I always appreciated was November from Dollhouse. That actress was beautiful but also bigger than his usual choices for female characters on his shows. I loved that she became a love interest, and that she was also a kickass sleeper agent in disguise. But now that all this stuff has come out in the media, I wonder how she was treated on set. 

I always liked Mellie/November too. As a character, as an actress and as an example of just what we’re talking about. Because Piper Laurie isn’t fat. She isn’t even overweight by the strict standards of medical charts. When the internet was going on about how refreshing it was to see a plump girl on tv, I checked her stats. She’s 5’9” and 145 pounds. This would make her about a size six. Our eyes, via the camera, have been trained to read normal as abnormal and vice versa. It makes me wonder just how many other abnormal things hide in plain sight. 

[S1.E06:]

Exploring the internalized patriarchy, misogyny and racism while contrasting these things with the well intentioned but often insincere wokeness would be interesting. Not to mention a little dangerous in our current moment. 

[Angel - General Discussion]

On 2/11/2021 at 1:02 AM, Hiyo said:

Good to see Joss's bullshit brand of feminism exposed, and him being seen for the utter asshole he is and was.

 

On 2/11/2021 at 7:44 AM, Lebanna said:

I find it really interesting that CC mentioned that he commented publicly and rudely on her weight before she told him about the pregnancy.

I always thought it was interesting that like on ‘Ally McBeal’, a supposedly feminist show seemed to only cast tiny actresses, starting from the re-cast of Willow from the first pilot.

For me, a feminist show even at that point should have had some strong older women, some proudly fat women, weightlifting female demons or something, as well as tiny women. But the women on Buffy and Angel (and Firefly) just seemed to get physically smaller as time went on. It bothered me at the time, when Joss was held up as this great feminist. The actresses were all so talented, but the variety of wonderful, beautiful women was never visible in his universe.

And now, I guess, we know why.

The tiny women in the Whedonverse always bothered me. Because the root of sexism is physical. We are hated and discriminated against because of our very female bodies. The sexual dimorphism of our species means that males have on average double the upper body strength of women. This affects how we live our lives because bottom line pretty much any man can kill any woman with his bare hands no weapon required. And that fact along with the possibility of assault and rape affects every male/female interaction and is in everyone’s subconscious. And yes, I know, not all men assault and that a few women a few deviations from the standard curve physically would make men pay for that assault as much as possible. But the stark fact remains that the root of women’s oppression is very physical it’s in our size and in our ability to birth children. 

For shows that are supposed to be so “feminist” and about female power, the fact that Whedon never addressed the physical limitations that define women’s lives seemed very far from feminism. Yes, Buffy is given magic powers as ultimately are Willow and Cordelia. What about Echo in Dollhouse? A magic brain and knowledge/skills  that gave her better physicality while working as a truly full service prostitute or something like that. Science is used as magic in the Dollhouse universe. But Echo’s actual physical body wouldn’t heal faster. And even with fighting skills to help you, Newtonian physics will have its say. 

The worst thing about all of this is that head feminist in charge, Joss Whedon didn’t even see the conflict. He was right there. Women are at a physical disadvantage and men have historically been aggressive as a group. How does this affect people? Even in a fantasy setting? So Buffy was off kilter philosophically and emotionally from the beginning. 

And all of the waif like girls? I think a name has been invented for this since I was trying to noodle it twenty years ago called waifu. Waif kung fu is how I always read it. And being even tinier than the norm? It does affect you. I’ve been both plump and underweight. I had more physical fear when I weighed what women in Hollywood weigh.

Riddle me this. How do you think the actresses of the Whedonverse would fare against a hundred and eighty pound assailant? But it’s fantasy AuntieMame! Except that fantasy works because it’s a reasonable metaphor for our real lives. And we see hundred pound women beating up men twice their weight in every action or fantasy movie or series. Does anyone remember Alias? I believe that the near universal existence of this false trope allows us to ignore women’s reality. It might be unconscious but it isn’t an accident. I wonder if this helps us blame and ignore real life victims. Because we’ve seen so many tiny women beating off assailants. Why didn’t she beat him up? But that idea has been planted subconsciously and thus is never consciously examined. 

Now we know Joss’s not only preference but demand for underweight women. We also know he abuses these women. That he had to be ordered not to be alone with an actress still an actual minor. But we’re still supposed to see something feminist about magicking away the reason we need feminism in the first place? I love Whedon’s shows for many reasons but I’ve always tried to remember that men who say they are feminist are often the least feminist of all. And the skeletal women easily defeating men and men in demon suits eighty pounds heavier than they were always seemed to me to erase women and their issues. Even when I couldn’t articulate it. 

[S1.E06:]

17 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

But were Holland Taylor (age 78 years)/Professor Joan Hambling, Bob Balaban (age 76 years)/Professor Elliot Rentz, and Ron Crawford (age 75 years)/Professor John McHale playing 20, or even 10 years younger???
I thought the actors were playing 5-10 years older. I haven't seen Holland Taylor in any of her other recent roles, but I would assume her stiff walk was to appear older. 
But you seem to be right, @AuntieMame! 
Joan said she hadn't looked at student evaluations since 1987, or 33 years earlier (assuming the setting is 2020).
I think they alluded to this being the first year she had tenure, which often takes 7 years, which puts her hiring around 1980, or 40 years ago.
So, even to be 77 in 2020, she would have to be hired at age 37, which only makes sense if she had first worked at another college, or if she took time off to stay home with children, which I think they said she did not?

I'm now tempted to cry "Ageism!" against the show, except the professors I've seen retire usually do so around Holland Taylor's real age in 2020 of 77, so playing 80 fits the story line to me. Maybe the script needed someone to check their math?

IDK. More thoughts @AuntieMame or anyone?

Thanks @shapeshifter!! It really does call a lot of the show into question doesn’t it? 
 

I think someone needed to check their math both literally and culturally. People in academia don’t work into their seventies unless they’re absolute superstars and even then. This would be more scientific superstars that add patents to the university coffers or still publishing crossover academic bestsellers ala Elaine Pagels. Except that Pagels was in her forties when the Gnostic Gospels were published. She might still have an office at Princeton and the very occasional seminar but she’s still receiving medals in the humanities and the late career lionization and I very much doubt that she’s keeping Princeton from hiring younger professors.
 

So the old profs would be people my age and a bit older. People in the second half of their fifties and early sixties who are often retired early unless they’re the real superstars. In any field, not just academia. I remember people in their fifties getting bought out when I was a whippersnapper of thirty in the corporate world. So the old guard fighting the holding action would be five to fifteen years older than Ji Yoon. Colleagues, friends and mentors. People you would fight some for. But fighting for people that played like they had one foot in the grave? And needed diapers and a nursing home? When the Dean told you to retire them? When they were all at least a decade beyond retirement age? And most likely wouldn’t suffer? And you needed the salary budget to save the department and the college in culturally shifting times? I didn’t understand why the three oldsters weren’t at the local senior center filling out their social security paperwork. 
 

It’s true that there aren’t enough jobs in academia for the Ph.Ds that are trained. It’s also true that Boomers born in the late fifties and very early sixties might be out staying their professional welcome in some fields but this was so badly done that it threw everything off for me. 
 

Our young people need a way to direct their energies. That’s clear. Because even though it’s supposed to be justice and righteous, cancel culture and the culture of offense just baffles me. By the measure of the Nazi salute brou haha?  We will no longer be able to watch Charlie Chaplin sending up Hitler in The Great Dictator or Modern Times. The professor (however annoying the rest of the time) wasn’t doing anything worse than Chaplin bouncing the world on his butt dressed as Hitler. 
 

I’m hoping for a better second season because this show could have been sharp and clever about a lot of things but instead of exploring it built straw men while ignoring the flesh and blood issues. 

[S1.E06:]

There were a bunch of things that I hated about this show. I’m not an academic but I’ve worked at big universities as a young woman. Not to mention attended them. I’m a GenXer, 52 and I think generational placement does affect how people respond to this show after reading all of the comments here. 

First, I hated the elderly professors, all of them because they were ridiculously, unrealistically elderly. Watching Holland Taylor in the first episode I thought to myself, this lady is eighty years old or close to it. It’s the stiffness in the hips and pelvis with most people that’s a giveaway. I checked Wikipedia and the actress is 78 almost 79. Sorry, but it isn’t working having her and her other oldsters play damn near twenty years younger. It isn’t believable. Diapers on the one old guy and nursing home type sleeping and farts for the other guy? C’mon. It made the comic relief painful and weakened the good plot line of how literature is viewed and taught to a generation that has taken a huge step towards literal and cultural illiteracy. Those old professors should have been leading edge generation xers in their late fifties and early sixties. That would have been interesting. Instead we don’t know if university professors really do have an average age of 75 to 80 or if we’re supposed to believe that they’re younger. But with the diapers and asleep all day that just doesn’t track. 

I completely agree about Bill as a stereotypical privileged, white male mess but aren’t the women around those guys still expected to take care of them? Examining the clashing expectations would have been interesting. As for Bill’s non apology apology, I really appreciated other posts here about why that non apology is such bullshit and so offensive. BUT, BUT, but, I thought the reason for the apology being needed was a ton of ridiculous nonsense. The very definition of tempest in a teapot. It wasn’t offensive. Bill was saying nazism was absurd and ridiculous and in the course of lecturing with an engagement he hadn’t shown in a while. Plus, why didn’t more context get posted somewhere? As another poster noted multiple students were filming and and not all students hated Bill. In theory the students deserved a sincere apology but the first needed an actual offense. Though I know that this at least was incredibly realistic. People being canceled because speech is now monitored. 

I’ll stop there but this would be a hate watch for me second season unless the show starts being really critical of the issues it’s trying to explore. It’s like an unedited thesis that shows promise right now, not a fully realized show. Let’s hope Season 2 undoes the growing pains. 

[S01.E01: The Wives Are in Connecticut]

On 7/17/2021 at 7:41 AM, peachmangosteen said:

The show was created by a woman, based on a book by a woman, and I believe all the writers are women. It's a real yikes lol.

Well that is one of the bigger ouches in the history of tv writing ouches. I’ve since looked up the books and even as a trashy summer hate read I can’t bring myself to buy the books and read them. Sigh. 

[S01.E03: Empire State of Mind]

On 8/2/2021 at 9:02 AM, MaggieG said:

Nope lol. I'm wondering if it was real or if the actor was wearing some sort of prosthetic.

It’s confirmed by another poster in the episode eight thread that this was indeed a prosthetic. Because all women want is a dong the size of a baseball bat. This show kills me and not in the good way. And it seems that most other people were indifferent. 

[S01.E08: This Must Be the Place]

On 8/1/2021 at 10:41 PM, Blakeston said:

For whatever it's worth, I just saw that a member of the show's prosthetics team confirmed to Newsweek that a prosthesis was used in the shower scene.

I have to say I'm kind of relieved to know that the actor doesn't have to worry about accidentally killing someone!

Dude! Well, I think we knew that penises really weren’t like that. Thank Dog and all of the Gods. And this is why the writing is beyond bad. First the mechanistic view that body parts are what makes sex hot. Chemistry is what makes sex hot. And even if the writers were trying to convey the combination of male competitiveness and insecurity they couldn’t manage this with a bit of class, intrigue and metaphor? The absolute misogyny is a problem too. Hey, all women need or want is a dick the size of a baseball bat. Everyone involved should be ashamed. 

[S01.E08: This Must Be the Place]

On 7/11/2021 at 8:27 AM, Blakeston said:

Hell, I'm a gay man and if I ever encountered something like that in the bedroom I'd run screaming!

Me too, Blakeston, me too. To answer a related question from a different episode thread, I saw something almost that big in nature once (erect not flaccid) but it was thankfully not a serious relationship otherwise I would have had to run screaming. 

I read the media topic all about the female gaze and how woman focused and feministy this show supposedly is but I’m having real trouble believing it. Did I miss a memo? Because this show makes me embarrassed to be a woman. It makes women look like the shallowest, dumbest bimbos imaginable. Anyone else offended that the general public might think we’re actually like this? 
OTOH, people must not think too much of it as according to the media thread the two stars are dating each other. That reeks of studio system Hollywood PR to get people to actually watch the show. 

[Flack - General Discussion]

On 6/30/2021 at 2:13 PM, backhometome said:

Robyn is so unlikeable but I suppose thats the point.

I was loving the Eve/Melody friendship this season. 

I find Ruth very annoying. 

I loved it when Eve stood up for Melody in the scene where Caroline fired Robyn and we were misdirected to think Melody was unfairly getting the ax and that this would be one more line of guilt in Robyn’s self-hatred and self-destruction. I adored it when Eve saved Melody. Caroline didn’t seem that surprised either. In fact, I might watch this episode again that was so good. 
Oh, and was anyone else expecting something more about the unappreciated assistant that provided the narrative through line for the episode? I was hoping for some justice for her I guess. Are you allowed to treat assistants like that these days?