DeeDee79

Seriously??!! That is your assumption and a false one at that. I have my own, personal reasons why that descriptor is a hot button for me. Don't dismiss it as a way to defend Dean which I frankly think is beyond ridiculous. I am so done with this conversation.

Why would it be interesting to discuss actual rape? No matter how you present it whether supernatural or reality some people don't like to see it nor do they like events on a sci fi show that is not based in reality to be compared as such. You don't have to agree with my viewpoint and I respect that.

That's fine. I still don't agree and I don't like the descriptor. And I don't think that all victims of sexual assault would agree just because you've read accounts from those that do.

I watch the show clearly. I don't agree with your description and I stated why.

That doesn't make it any less disgusting especially for viewers that have actually experienced sexual assault.

I think you are watching a different show or at least through a biased lens. The show that I'm watching shows two brothers that both make mistakes & can be dicks in equal measure. Fandom often distorts that story that is being played out on screen IMO. I certainly haven't read any posts on this site from Dean fans that would recommend him for sainthood and turn a blind eye to his mistakes. Even the ones that have admitted that they hate Sam ( and not all of us do ) have still disliked some of Dean's actions. Please do not equate what happened to a fictional character with rape.

Many is correct; most is assuming. I personally see both sides of the Gadreel incident since I like both characters. Dean should have told Sam but I can see how he was afraid that Gadreel would abruptly leave Sam to die from his injuries. Sam was right to be angry about the possession & the lying but ripping into Dean beyond his feelings for said possession was brutal and intentionally hurtful. After the scene wrapped I was disappointed that the writers went there to make a point.

Right after the statement that Dean fans make excuses for his actions. More often than not Dean is demonized in order to paint Sam as defenseless, brutalized and cowering in the face of his brute of a brother. The implication is insulting to both characters.

Please don't act as though Dean fans never admit when he's wrong and pretend that Sam & Cas fans never do the same. All Dean fans are not the same so please don't lump us all into this description.

I agree.

Most definitely. Sam isn't defenseless & he has shown to be more than capable of being domineering. Dean isn't some evil overlord holding Sam against his will.

So, so true!!

It was clear to me!

Exactly. We've been told & shown later that John's reaction was due to his fear of Sam not being safe when he was out of his sight. Furthermore we've been shown that Dean has pride in his brother despite all of the differences and passive aggressive exchanges we've been shown. As I've said when dealing with family we're not always kind which can be said when we're dealing with anyone if we're pissed/hurt enough.

We can agree to disagree because if this is your viewpoint I can't see any point in further debating.

I don't know how to make it make sense to you because my opinion is based on my interpretation which differs from yours. And of course I know that I'm not unique in having siblings nor do I think that I'm the only one that does which is why I was stating my own experiences. Everyone doesn't operate the same which is why we have differing interpretations as to what is being depicted on screen. Sam & Dean have wavered between combative & passive aggressive. They don't always lay out in clear unwavering terms what their problem is with the other which is why fandom debates as to what the true intention may have been during a scene/discussion. You don't have to agree with me; I'm just offering my opinion for whatever it's worth.

I actually agreed with you earlier that there should be a dislike button. It gets frustrating when you try to offer an unbiased point of view when someone clearly hates the character that you're defending and spewing so much vitriol that it becomes clear that there's no point in responding. Sometimes stating agree to disagree doesn't take because I've seen posts that still continue on to press their point instead of amicably letting it go. And I know the mods state that we just shouldn't engage but it's still irritating.

I have two older siblings. I went to college & later served in the military. Despite the two of them having previously served they expressed disbelief that I could do it & I resented them for their viewpoint which was based on the fact that I'm their baby sister. Were they being malicious? No but I resented them for their lack of support. I know that they were worried and I don't resent them now but it's logical to feel resentful towards a sibling or loved one based on a perceived slight. It doesn't mean that the environment is stifling because everyone doesn't have the same upbringing. But MMV.

And I said when you're feeling hurt or pissed by siblings you go for the jugular whether or not it's logical or true. What you're pointing out is what I stated. When speaking to Sam he may have made a comment about him abandoning the family for college ( which I said in my post ) but when speaking to others Dean seems to take pride in Sam's intelligence. This supports my belief that it wasn't resentment that he went to college, just that he cut off contact.

I agree & I don't think that it was the fact that Sam went to college; it was that he cut himself off from Dean. Further into the show Dean brags about Sam's smarts and the fact that he went to Stanford so I don't think that falls in line with someone who's resentful of the fact that their sibling went off to better themselves. I know now that someone is going to remark "but what about all of the times that Dean threw it back in Sam's face that he left them, left hunting, forgot about them, blah blah blah....." to which I say if you have siblings and they do anything that pisses you off or hurts your feelings ( I have 2 brothers so I know of what I speak ) you go for the jugular. It's not always logical or true, it just is what it is. That being said, I don't think that Dean resented Sam going to school.

I know. Which I often do because I can tell from the tone of the post if the person in question is open for an alternate viewpoint or so firmly ensconced in their opinion that to debate will equal banging my head against a brick wall.

I'll co-sign and add Back in the Saddle from Like A Virgin. And you hit all of the points that make this one of my top 5 episodes of the series.

I agree with this. I was annoyed on first watch because of statement that jerks or bullies were the usual targets. After Dean's confession that he tortured souls upon rewatch of this episode I've always assumed that was why Dean was a victim of ghost sickness. I'm still annoyed by Sam and Bobby during the episode though.

I'm strongly Dean leaning but I consider myself a bibro. I like a good debate as much as anyone but sometimes you just have to agree to disagree and move on.

I think it's already pretty combative whenever certain episodes are being discussed.