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Posts posted by green

  1. How much saliva can one person have? Can you imagine Keith fully hydrated? You'd have to wear a hazmat suit and goggles just to get within two feet of him.


    I don't know why they didn't go after Jaclyn, either. However, when your plan hinges on the brain trust of Alec and Keith doing the right thing your game is pretty much screwed anyway. See: Reed's beautiful blue eyes over on the jury. You may as well go with whichever one of the two seems to be in possession of the most gray matter that day. Or heck, just do rock-paper-scissors. If you can get the two of them to understand and follow the rules of it, that is.


    Missy is thisclose to either adopting Jon or making him Mr. Missy #4, so Natalie and Baylor should be very wary of her (and I think they are... for the most part.) Although, how wary Baylor really is, I don't know. I think one guilt-trip from Missy and Baylor would spill her guts. I really hope Missy is out next week. That's one less vote J/J can count on at TC next week. Anything that foils their plans is good with me.


    I wish Natalie had found the idol without Baylor. We'll see if it's "their" idol when one of their asses is on the line. My guess is Baylor will have to pry it from Natalie's cold, dead hands.


    Jon does realize that everyone who is going to be on the jury was at the tribal council and probably witnessed Jaclyn and Natalie telling him to play the idol. Right?


    Thanks for the hazemat suits and Mr Missy images there, hah.


    And yeah, Jon, you can't play Jedi mind tricks on the whole jury.  "These are not the people who told me to play the idol."  Well actually you probably could with Keith and Alec the latter of which is probably so dumb he doesn't know he shares a first name with Alec Guiness nor who he played in Star Wars.  Plus he probably can't even spell his own name right given his effort on Ki-eth.  (Loved how the editors had fun with his ineptitude regards uh ... well, everything).


    I've been rooting for Natalie from day one.  Well Nadiya too on day one but just shows how the luck of the draw gave both Twins such different tracks in the game.  Nadiya ends up with Racist Rocker and Natalie lands with Jeremy.  Glad Natalie has survived and down right flourished so far.  But since no one I rooted for on a day one has ever won Survivor I doubt she can win.  Sorry I jinxed you through time and space, Natalie.


    I get why Keith was better to keep though.  He might win a challenge and Natalie seems to have him as her little puppet.  Of course so did Reed and Keith ruined his big move.  Natalie, you got to give Keith crib notes and stuff his mouth with a sock at tribal council if this is going to work for you.


    But the previews show everything is suddenly up in the air again so no one can stratigize everything when "stuff happens" physically.  If it isn't a red herring we were shown that is.


    Regards why Alec and Keith voted for Reed.  Easy.  Reed was going, period.  No way they could prevent that.  Their vote didn't matter. 


    So in that case you don't piss off a member of the larger alliance for nothing by writing his or her name down.  You live to try to worm your way into that alliance the next day.  It will have to crack soon and another swing vote will be needed not named Jon or Jaclyn.  In fact with the Reed vote Jon and Jaclyn are no longer swing votes but one of the mini alliances within the larger alliance.  So get on the winning side of the split as the new swing vote and anything can happen.

    • Like 2

  2. As always a long and interesting and excellent post from ElleryAnne.  I think the best way to reply to it is edit it to just the parts I'm replying too and I'll bold my answers within the quote below since there are a number of points I'd like to reply to.


    I think the single most upsetting thing to me was Naevia's death.  I hate - HATE - that the last words she heard were Caesar's, telling her that she shouldn't have that blade because she was a slave.  She died free, just like Spartacus did.  If she was too badly injured to say the words herself, then I wish Gannicus or someone else around her had said it for her.  


    Yeah I agree that was the lowest point of the episode.  No wonder Ohwell turned if off soon after.

    On the other hand, Caesar speaking up on behalf of Kore was interesting.  Not a lot of the Romans have shown either understanding or concern at the fact that slaves could be raped, since the Romans as a whole didn't seem to recognize that the slaves had any right to personal bodily agency.  For a few seconds, I actually liked Caesar when he acknowledged that Kore was a victim.  


    And then he went and blabbered on about Naevia being a slave and I hated him again.


    Yeah the writers seemed to have used Caesar in this series as being relatively okay in comparison with Tiberius but alone, away from Tiberius and his actions, not so much.


    Did Crassus have Kore put on a cross at the end?  So not really forgiving her, then. 


    He did indeed forgive her for killing Tiberius.  But he gave orders that all people that were part of the rebels were to be put to death so he, by all the the concepts of Roman honor and integrity of his day, couldn't excuse one of them for personal reasons.  In the end he became a victim of the harsh requirements of Roman justice by losing the one person he truly did love ... as much as he could love.

    I haven't been fond of the Gannicus-Saxa-Sibyl triangle because honestly, I don't know what he sees in Sibyl.  She's like the slave version of Seppia, who I never liked (and probably for the same reason - that whiny, hanger-on, teenager with her first boyfriend vibe).  Saxa, OTOH, was a cool chick. 


    I think Saxa was also cool about Gannicus and Sybil.  She saw that Sybil was actually good for Gannicus I think.  And she was.  To me Sybil symbolized a more gentle and even spiritual type of person.  Both innocent and naive but having the outlook in her that would know how to use freedom to build a better, more compassionate society.  It almost had to be that she survived to represent the future of mankind not to put too big a spin on things, hah.


    Sybil always saw Gannicus the way she imagined him.  Noble and true.  Gannicus had trouble with that cause he saw his faults clearly.  But Sybil's "faith" helped change Gannicus more into that very man.  He even refused a last drink with Spartacus because he, of all people, was influenced by her enough to give up drink.  Wow.


    And drink to him was a self-indulgent thing.  First as part of his party boy youth then almost as an escape from his past and what happened to Milleta.  Now he had faced things through Oenameus first giving him a new start but one he can't quite embrace.  Then Sybil with her idealistic vision gave him a chance to be the good man and hero he had within himself all along.  So though he at first declines the final command in the end he finally accepts it knowing he has become a new, more selfless man who can at least fight so that others can find a new life in freedom.


    Yeah I guess I like Sybil a bit more than you did, heh.


    The two lines of crosses looked like a message being sent to any other slave/rebels not to cross the Romans.  


    Yeah you are so right.  It totally was like I mentioned in the post above.


    I was glad Agron and Nasir survived.


    I also especially liked that they had one lone survivor from House Batiatus in Agron to live and tell the whole tale from the very beginning.


    ... the makeshift grave with his sword/shield on it ...


    Like I mentioned in my first post, that fulfilled Sura's prophesy in the very first episode.  You could see Spartacus knew for sure he was going to die that day when he first saw Agron's new shield with the two red serpents on it before the battle and even murmured aloud to himself the lines Sura has said about his life being full of "great and terrible things."  Wonderful way to take the series full circle.


    I was kinda expecting that Crassus and Spartacus would have continued fighting, face to face,  and that Crassus would have delivered the killing blow himself.  (I wouldn't have wanted to Spartacus to die at all, of course, but since it was going to happen, I expected it to be a leader-to-leader confrontation.)


    But maybe think about it this way.  He was taken down from behind so he never lost to Crassus and in fact had him defeated and on the ground unarmed which gives him his final victory.  Movies and TV never have the hero defeated by the main villain after all.  If they fall it is by "unfair" means after they proved they were the real winner.

    I like that at the end, we see the mother and baby among the people headed for the mountains and freedom. Nice reinforcement of Spartacus' legacy to the generations after him.


    It was indeed.  And there was a subtle subtext to that scene too.  I'm talking about how the mother and child are flanked by Laeta and Sybil.  Both these women were rather pointedly shown sleeping with Spartacus and Gannicus right near the end.  Why?  Seemed to me it gave the viewer the choice to think that just maybe one or the other or both will carry on the bloodlines of Gannicus and Spartacus in the form of a free-born child they may give birth too.  Otherwise why have both women survive from the writers' point of view.


    And we never find out what Spartacus' name actually was.  Though it was an interesting touch that the battle was bookended with the various rebels using, "I am Spartacus!" as a unifying thing and Spartacus at the end reminding everyone that that wasn't his name.


    I never got why it wasn't suppose to be his name (talking why the writers went with that fiction).  It never added to anything and Spartacus was a common name in Thrace since several Thracian "kings" had been named that thus it was popular to name your son that.


    The "I am Spartacus" lines were a nice shout-out to the most famous scene from the 1960 Spartacus film though.  Different set-up of course but still a great shout-out to a great film in and of itself.


    I'm sorry the series is over.  It took a while to warm up to it, but I've really grown to love it.  (I need to re-watch the early episodes at some point and see if I feel differently about them now that I'm more familiar with the characters.)  Love this board, too, and you guys.


    Yeah I'll miss this part of the board too.  But the third season of Vikings starts in February so I have that to fall back on.  And that series features a for real and historically accurate female as one of the major leads.  One of the strongest warriors in Viking history actually.  So bring on Lagertha as well as Ragnar and crew.  I need them to pick me back up after the end of this series.


    PS:  For the record Spartacus was indeed killed attacking Crassus.  He managed to kill two centurions near him before Romans troops rushed him en masse.  His body was never found after the battle though which allowed the writers of this series license enough to have his final breaths and burial away from the battlefield.  It was a good call on their part I think.


    Enjoyed my time here and especially all of your posts.  And hope to see all of you who like good historical drama on the Vikings thread come February.

    • Like 3

  3. Along with the credits, they had pictures of almost every character from the first season on.  Then at the end, they had the scene from Season 1, Episode 7 where Andy Whitfield yells "I AM SPARTACUS!!!"


    They had the characters in different groupings so some got shown several times.  


    Wanted to reply in separate postings to some of the above so as to kind of keep to separate themes and not to write-out one super long post that is hard to read I guess.  Yeah I saw that when I downloaded it this summer.  It was a nice way to exit the series.  But Sy-Fy reduced the credits to a postage stamp and went 90 miles and hour through them.  They did have "I am Spartacus!" at a normal speed but it was, again, at postage stamp size alas.


    Might as well add some history factoids here in this post too.  I looked online and it says that Crassus crucified the 6000 survivors of the battle.  Didn't know the exact number until I googled it.  Knew the rest of the story though.  They were marched from that site to Capua, where it all began, and were crucified all along the famed Appian Way on both sides of the road from Capua all the way to the gates of Rome as a warning to all other slaves.  Crucifixion was always reserved as the punishment for sedition against the state which was viewed as the worst crime among the Romans.  It was used since it was about the worst death ever devised so was always used as a warning against sedition to all others and a deterrent to such ideas and actions.


    Crassus, as shown, actually did allow Pompey to steal away his "victory triumph" (a very big deal for any Roman commander) from him though he did get recognition for winning that last battle in the form of secondary "victory laurels".  He did it to play a long game for greater power which helped win Pompey's loyalty in support for the First Triumvirate formed around himself, Pompey and Caesar. 


    This effectively usurped all power to them from the now ineffectual and neutered Senate.  The Senate would always remained afterwards but was only window dressing from this time onward.  A rubber stamp.  So ironically the last vestiges of any Roman "freedom" (though really only for the upper and upper-middle classes) were is some ways destroyed with the defeat of the slave army seeking freedom and the seeds that it sowed.  Spartacus in this way did indeed help bring down the Republic.


    Crassus himself faded away from prominence and became more the mere "banker" among the trio of defacto rulers and died without doing anything more to add to a Roman's version of glory.


    Caesar went on to Roman-style glory conquering part of Gaul.  So along with Pompey, they became the two big conquering generals and thus the bigger movers and shakers.  And there cannot be two alpha males co-existing it always seems so it came about they parted ways and a bloody civil war took place with Caesar the winner in battle and Pompey fleeing to Egypt. 


    In Egypt, Cleopatra's brother ruled  and saw a chance to get into the winner's good graces and had Pompey captured and executed.  But Caesar saw that as depriving him of the final glory and humiliating Rome by allowing a "great" general to be killed by a foreigner.  Cleopatra, estranged from her brother and wanting the throne herself, worked her magic and Caesar killed the last male pharaoh of Egypt and placed her on the throne and married her under Egyptian law causing great scandal back home which, with his open power grab, would eventually lead to his assassination.


    So all three Romans involved with Spartacus in the end would also die.  Two in a violent manner and one fading into obscurity which was probably the worst of those deaths for a Roman in some ways.  And none of them ever respected like Spartacus is today in this modern world.

    • Like 1

  4. Well, I'm sorry I missed all the gang at the end in the credits, but I'm still glad I didn't witness Gannicus and Spartacus getting killed. 


    I thoroughly enjoyed this series and the discussions with all of you.  Special shoutouts to Green and ElleryAnne for the historical perspective, and to Meushell for posting the threads.


    Honestly I would still download that last episode and watch it.  Because their deaths were the inspiring ones.  It sounds like you switched it off at the very lowest point.  Bummer for you to exit at that point cause as weird as it sounds it kind of was all up after that to me.


    The death of Gannicus was awesome.  Oenameus comes to the foot of the cross to take him across to the afterlife giving him one last vision of his former glory.  The joy in his face when he embraces it and claims his victory over death itself in his roar of triumph was one of the highlights of the entire series for me.


    Spartacus, of course, gets a hero's death after first defeating Crassus in the final duel.  Crassus is saved by spear-throwing soldiers taking Spartacus down the only way a hero on TV is taken down.  By a cheap shot.  Then Agron and Nasir rescue him from dying on the spot and carry him off to a peaceful, still place where they, Laeta, Sybil and the nameless woman and her baby take their good-byes.  Spartacus, at peace with himself, gets to deliver the line that the greatest gift of liberty is to die a free man.  Awesome stuff.


    He is buried in a shallow grave covered by stones and, as his wife Sura prophesied in Episode 1, under the two red serpents ... the ones on Agron's makeshift shield weapon as it turns out which is left behind as a grave marker.  The gray skies turn to lighter ones and rays of sun break through heralding the first glimmers of freedom coming to earth as it were as the remaining people he gave his life for start their way over the mountain passes to their new lives in freedom.  Can't have a much more positive or happier ending then that given the facts of history. 


    So I find their two deaths totally inspirational and ones you want to stand up and cheer for.  Catch the episode again somehow if you can is my humble recommendation.  We all die in the end.  It is how we lived and what we stood for that is celebrated here.

    • Like 2

  5. I loved this show when it was all about the racing - you came in first, you won, you came in last -eliminated.

    To me, it was, at that time,the only true competitive reality show. But now, saves, U-turns,double u turns,fast forwards have diminished what I found so appealing.

    still better than the rest of the so-called competitive reality shows, but in danger of shark jumping if they keep adding gimmicks.


    The only thing I was fine with was the FF when it was in every leg but the last one.  The reason was it tended to help trailing teams a lot.  Now the early teams go for it with the Surfers an anomaly.  But with FFs on ever leg you had to use strategy as to "when it would be most advantageous to use it" to directly quote Phil's patter back in the day.  So if you were in the lead why go for it when you might need one deeper in the Race.


    This sometimes helped even out a trailing team's bad luck factor from a past bad cabbie or delayed flight.  Which is what I think the original intent of the FF originated from.


    Now leading teams could take it so there were no guarantees.  And teams with a racer feeling ill or teams just drained might burn theirs early to get a reprieve to re-charge their batteries.  But if possible leading teams tried to save theirs for later in the Race.   Which meant strong teams might have to compete for FFs later in the Race just as trailing teams did earlier in the Race.


    It also let the editors make a more realistic "fight to avoid last" edit what with one trailing team doing the FF and a team that had been slightly ahead of them doing the regular tasks.  They then had separate paths to the mat so there wasn't an easy way to figure out if it was fake editing or if they were indeed neck-and-neck near the end.


    It just worked so so well.  I never know why they stopped it.  Oh yeah, they wanted to turn a quality show into just another reality scream-fest filled with artificial devices.  Still makes me sad.  But I agree that despite that it is still better than the other reality shows.  But to stay that way they have to cut back on this artificial crap and they can start with their latest disaster, the "Save."  Giving a strong team a safety net on top of everything else is just dumb.


    Yes a team could need a Save the very next leg but with a strong team like the Dentists winning it early on and not likely needing it as much as a weaker team might it just made the Race way too predictable.  People like surprises in the Race when an underdog team can beat out a stronger team especially if the underdogs seem likeable.  The Save almost guaranteed it wasn't gonna happen this season when a strong team won it right off the bat.  Makes for bad TV.

    • Like 2

  6. Actually, both situations have occurred on TAR in the past:  Luke and Big Easy come to mind.  They did nothing to make it easier for either one of them...no tasks were eliminated.


    And on both Season 5 and TAR All-Stars Charla had no help.  There were tasks in both that involved bicycles and no child sized ones were allowed for her.   Mirna had to do the old newspaper collecting by bicycle RB one on All-Stars and they had to pass on the bicycle detour option in Tanzania in Season 5 which directly lead to their elimination.


    cooksdelight, as to if anyone won the first leg of a Race went on to win it all?  You don't have to go any further than Season 1.


    If The Scientists are grad students then they already have their bachelors in a scientific field thus are "scientists."

  7. The problem is not the morality of what Brooke and Robbie did,but the fact that it was stupid. According to Maya on facebook it was only a few minutes between them and the cyclists. If their lie had gotten the scientists eliminated over a strong team in the cyclists that would have been an all time idiotic play. They should be working with the scientists to get the strong teams out because they are both basically in the same boat.


    The scientists had the sound strategy of u-turning both the surfers and the cyclists so that whichever lost FF would be eliminated,which they relayed to the wrestlers during the massage.


    Absolutely.  Also to the person who says that The Scientists should have U Turned the Wrestlers.  Huh?!?!?!  The Scientists would (and should) want to keep the stupid Wrestlers in the Race since they, along with the Scientists, are the two weakest teams remaining.  It would be Race suicide to let the Cyclists remain over the dumb as rocks Wrestlers.


    I am so sure I've seen that cupping thing before and I have only watched this version of TAR. Does anyone know if it's been used before?


    Regards original American TAR, there was indeed a detour option of cupping one other time on the Race so when Phil explained the option that season we saw the explanation clip with the cups.  But no one took that option.


    I had no problem with the massage.  It was explained pretty fully it was one of those deep massages.  And it was a detour option.  No one had to take it.  The people weren't being sadistic like one poster said.  They were being professional.  Millions of people get these massages ever day of the year and it is common in lots of places in Asia so local culture too.  Yes we Americans are pretty wimpy at times.  I would have been screaming worse than both Scientists.  But I also would have been totally down with the locals getting a good chuckle out of our somewhat pampered, non-tough ways catching up with us.


    What was terrible to see was my two favorite teams battling for last.  My favorites, and one of the strongest all female teams ever, getting eliminated.  I concur with others.  Bring them back on a future "returning Racers" season of the Race.  Can't imagine TPTB not bringing them back. 


    Dear editors, I love the work you do I really really do.  You guys are amazing and funny and witty and brilliant 99% of the time.  But now the negative 1%.  Your Achilles's heel is always always ALWAYS showing the team that is going to be eliminated saying lame stuff like "It isn't over until it is over."  "We can't be going out."  "There is still hope."  Etc etc etc ad naseum.  Everyone knows at that point they are out.  E-V-E-R-Y-O-N-E!  Not just TAR Nerds but the most casual of viewers.  Please please stop that.


    Guess Brooke is the official villain of the season now.  No way around it.  And there was NO reason to lie to The Scientist about the clue.  You already know two teams went for the FF and one of them will finish first so you aren't fighting for a trip to somewhere prize.  AND you almost eliminated the only possible team you might beat and then only if it is a 100% physical challenges leg with no taxi cabs involved.  You also get the rep of your bad karma not just with them where they could, in turn, refuse to help you when you needed it most in a future leg.  But you also alert the other two teams remaining not to ever work with you again.  Wrestlers just committed what could turn out to be TAR suicide.  100% NO reason to do what they did and all their moves hurt only them in the end.  Stupid stupid stupid stupid team.  But then teams that are dumb enough to actually think lying for no reason can help them on the Race usually find out the opposite is the case.  Come on karma.  Bring it on.


    There was no "shenanigans" regards the FF task.  They didn't "abort" the China legs (plural) when they cast a Chinese-American team who were the only ones on that Race that spoke fluent Chinese.  Others mentioned the Cowboys lasso one and the Denmark cargo bikes this season.  The Cyclists were my favorites but I had no issue with this FF.  The time and effort to set-up a race course takes literally months.  The filming permits, rentals (as mentioned above), booking the back scene production people and Phil's tickets etc are locked in place before casting. 


    Changing stuff AFTER casting would be considered fixing things, not before.  So they can't change it.  Just have an alternate leg of two set-up in case of weather (the Belize hurricane during Family Edition), wars, natural tragedies, terrorist threats (aborting Turkey for the UAE in Season 5 after a synagogue bombing in Istanbul only a couple of days before the Race was suppose to go there) etc.  And those alternatives are also  set-up in advance.  And all of that is written up with CBS lawyers to assure everything is in the open and on the up and up.  To have TAR "fix" things to favor one team over another is for production to destroy their own show and get it cancelled.  Ain't ever gonna happen.  And casting is handled by a separate agency.  Also if they didn't "fix" the ending to Season 6 to something better then they would never ever "fix" anything.


    Thanks for info that was Melody as the Greeter.  I was wondering who she was since she vaguely looked familiar.  I downloaded TAR Asia's Season 1 (and a couple after that) and I highly recommend that first season especially to all TAR fans here who love the flavor of the TAR classic era.  Had a really interesting cast.  And TAR Asia is always filmed in English since teams come from about 7 or 8 Asian countries so English is the "universal language" they use for all teams and the one main requirement to qualify to be on TAR Asia.  Heck they even had two western ex-pat teams on the Race too.  And they had a gay couple who were an English ex-pat and a Sri Lankan as I recall.  The first episode was slow and kind of lame but don't give up.  From episode 2 on it was a really really great season.


    I would be terrible at most tasks in most Races.  But I would have aced the find the right merlion one.  As soon as I saw Mount Fabor as a option it was obvious that was where it was.  With Season 25 being a giant shout out to the early seasons so far, of course the clue was there at Season 3's pit stop location where we said good-bye to Jill & Jon Vito.


    And next week the ultimate shout-out.  Colin and his broken ox.  I just wish they would show it in color instead of the lame black & white stuff they use for "flashbacks."  That is so corny.  I want both Colin and our favorite ox ever in glorious color. 


    And now I want to go off and re-watch them both again on my Season 5 DVDs.  Maybe Season 3's Singapore episode too because of Teri & Ian's "informational" on the neato "paper underwear" they scored to take on the Race.  Eh, second thought, maybe not that bit.

    • Like 6

  8. I think the finale contains more inspiration then you might think making the tough to watch part easier then you may imagine now.  Also look at it this way.  Caesar, Crassus and Spartacus all died over 2000 years ago.  But who of them lives on the most in respect and admiration among modern day people?

    • Like 5

  9. Yeah the trade of 500 to 1 would be tricky but that is what writers and editors are for, hah.  But the way they showed it the 500 Spartacus got back would be more of a burden than a help since most of them seemed wounded or may have even been pulled down from crosses half-dead like Agron was.  Crassus knows this helps him tactically to saddle Spartacus with so many wounded so he would be fine with the trade going through. 


    And Spartacus gets his people back while Tiberius still dies because Kore turns out to be just as much a prize for Crassus.  And frankly Kore has too much baggage with Crassus to leave and live in freedom.  One of the slaves that never could truly adapt to the concept of freedom I think.


    History factoid time again.  They got the gladiatorial games right though the real games Spartacus held to honor Crixus were way larger and he forced the Romans to fight each other.


    "Spartacus, upon hearing of the defeat of Crixus and his forces, held mock gladiatorial games, in which he forced captured Roman soldiers to fight to the death. Three hundred Romans were sacrificed in Crixus' honor."


    But it was more fun in this version to see the delight in Gannicus' face to return as "a god of the arena" again.  And more satisfying to see Naevia have her way with little twit Tiberius.  Also Spartacus giving her the final say about the deal with the 500 vs killing Tiberius' there and then was cool and Naevia showed great discipline and seeing the bigger picture in the middle of her vengeful adrenaline rush to stop on a dime for the sake of the 500 rebels.


    And yeah Crixus' head had a great send off complete with the touching, lump in the throat moment of:

    Naevia - "For Crixus!"

    Spartacus - "And Sura, Varro and Mira!"

    Gannicus - "Oenameus!"

    Agron - "Duro!"

    Etc, etc.  I think I even heard someone shout out Barca's name.  Great moment.


    Loved Caesar trying to hide his smirk several times when he realizes he has got his revenge over Tiberius.


    Now all we have to do is await the grand finale next Sunday night.

    • Like 2

  10. Cathy7304, I hear you and historically it seems a little up in the air but I found this online for you.  (Like how you used "apologies" here like in the TV series, heh).


    "A nineteen year old Caesar was arrested. But it appears that Sulla chose to spare him, as he did some others. Influential friends managed to have him released, but it was obvious that Caesar would have to leave Rome for a while, in order to let things cool down.


    Caesar goes into Exile


    And so Caesar left Rome to join the army. Naturally, as a member of a patrician family, he didn't enter the forces as a common soldier. His first posting was as a military assistant to a provincial governor.


    Thereafter he was posted to Cilicia, where he proved himself a capable and courageous soldier, winning praise for having saved the life of a comrade.


    It's believed that his next assignment was in one of the armies which crushed Spartacus' slave rebellion.


    After this Caesar left the army, yet it was still considered unwise for him to return to Rome.  Instead he spent some time in the south of Italy improving his education, in particular rhetoric. Caesar later proved an incredibly talented, if not genial, public speaker and much of this will undoubtedly have come from his training in rhetoric.  'Do you know any man who, even if he has concentrated on the art of oratory to the exclusion of all else, can speak better than Caesar ?' (quote by Cicero).


    Caesar decided to spend the winter on the island of Rhodes, but the ship taking him there was captured by pirates, who held him hostage for about forty days, until a large ransom bought his freedom."



    So it appears the Spartacus revolt occurred before Caesar was held hostage by the pirates.  And it seems he may have taken part in crushing the revolt.  But yeah this show pumps up Caesar's role in the revolt.  Since Crassus and Caesar (and Pompey) will eventually form the First Triumvirate and since he is certainly a big name in history and more familiar to most viewers than Crassus or even Pompey, I think it was a pretty clever call by the writers.


    Caesar (played by John Gavin) also appears in the 1960 file Spartacus as well though more in the politics of Rome scenes where he ends up choosing Crassus' faction over Gracchus' faction which he originally had supported.  Just mentioning that in the sense that the TV series wasn't the first Spartacus project to throw Caesar into the camera frame.  Of course the real Gracchus brothers existed some 30 years earlier.  But historical fiction does contain the word fiction.  And needs to given the demands of the dramatic format.  Balancing the two is always the tricky part.

    • Like 3

  11. Okay I got confused cause I guess the title from last episode was used here.  Should read "Separate Paths" but I guess it is near impossible to edit headings and I would make so many typos if I ever made a new thread it would be sad indeed.  Anyway I do appreciate Meushell doing all the heavy lifting and I'm not criticizing.  You do a wonderful job and I am in your debt.  


    This episode I did get to re-see unlike the last one.


    First off about Crixus breaking off with half the army.  History-wise it sort of happened continually during the revolt.  Crixus or someone else would split off and do their thing.  Sometimes 5 or 6 mini armies moving about.  Then they would merge and split and merge again etc.  Historians don't exactly know why but think that some of it had to do with the inability of being able to feed an army/group of refugees that large at one place.  Some estimates have the totals for the rebels running anywhere from 50,000 to more than 100,000.  Hard to raid a couple of villas and glean some fields each day with all of them together.  One of these mini-armies at one point was lead by Gannicus and formed the basis of the "cozy" bit from last episode in that there were actually some women who were praying for that mini-army that did freeze to death I believe. 


    Also historians don't really know the command structure of the rebels.  Only Roman accounts survive (the main one being a biography of Crassus) and they simply mentioned that after the 70 some gladiators broke out from the ludus that Spartacus, Crixus and Oeanmeus were voted as the three leaders.  Since Spartacus seemed to be mentioned more in the chronicles then Crixus and since Oeanmeus isn't mentioned much after the start of the revolt they tended to see the latter as probably being killed off early and the other two semi-co-equals with Spartacus given more prominence. And the series kind of shows that.  Crixus wasn't a yes man by any stretch of the imagination.


    Now this last split off wasn't about food gathering of course.  Just saying splitting the forces was actually the norm a lot during the revolt so no one would have been overly upset with another split when it happened.  And it indeed happened.  Crixus decided to march on Rome as shown.  And he died in the attempt after first defeating Arrius' legion and coming oh so close to Rome itself.  Very well filmed to give Crixus the heroic end he deserved too.  I'll miss the big lug but history is history.


    Also we saw little Hugo the German guy die in the battle too.  As for Naevia and Agron, that is what the next episode will answer.  Glad that episode is coming up in a few hours but too bad we have to wait for the finale until next Sunday night.


    And yes Tiberius knew Kore was his father's much loved mistress.  He and his mother even knew from episode one of this season onward.  The reason he raped Kore was to destroy someone dear to his father like he viewed his father had done to his best friend with the decimation.  Of course there would have been no decimation if Tiberius hadn't disobeyed orders not to engage but he likes to forget that part.


    Caesar is hardly a heroic figure in this series but the writers have made him ahead of his time in that he at least cared how Kore was treated.  And his reward is to be raped too.  Methinks Tiberius has pretty much pissed off almost every living soul who ever knew him at this point.


    In other news, Crassus needs to take a sleeping pill or two.  (An overdose would be nice come to think of it).

    • Like 2

  12. I missed re-seeing this Sunday night unfortunately so thanks for reminding me about what was happening here.  Was this the one where Gannicus and Sybil get "cozy"?


    And yeah history is history.  They may make it historical fiction but they can't avoid the very major parts of the story.  Just make them more epic and awe-inspiring I guess.


    I think they threw in the character of Tiberius to make Crassus and Caesar a little bit more human.  Man is that kid annoying to put it mildly.

    • Like 1

  13. cassandle said: "My DVR screwed up and cut off the last couple minutes--right when Ichabod drew the sword (although weirdly it had nothing to do with Ferguson--it just decided to stop working) so I don't know if that was the real ending or not....  It seemed weak for a fall finale--is there another episode I missed the previews for?  It sounds like most of us will have to be watching the show again on Hulu or Demand..."


    Weird, couldn't post with the regular quote feature.  So, sorry I had to do it this way.  Might just be a temp glitch.


    It was almost the ending to part 1 of two parts to this episode.  Well there was a final scene back at ye olde ranch where Henry gloats that the end has come and the horsemen of war and death were there with a shot of Moloch from behind looking on all big and grown-up and properly "horned" on his forehead.  I keep forgetting if Abe is War or Death but Henry is the other but he gets a robotic-like fill-in to do the actual physical stuff for him.  Anyway his horsie has the fire eyes and nostrils and Headless still has trusty Old Red Eye.


    Anyway the finale is next week where they promise someone makes the ultimate sacrifice.  Audience in unison:  Please let it be Stupid Witch.

    But I'm guessing since we see Irving running around in the thick of stuff it will probably be him.  Especially since I noticed he was credited third this episode in the opening instead of witch chick.


    As for this episode, thank God for downloads.  Otherwise I would have missed the whole flashback bit which filled in that it was Headless who talked Ichabod into coming to America originally.  Told him to stop teaching history and start making it and go and join the army since Ichabod's father would never approve the move and the army would ship him over for free.  Funny, at the beginning of season one I got the impression that Headless was a Hessian and not a British soldier.  Mind must be going.   Anyway interesting back story because in season one I thought they just met in the New World for the first time.  All so confusing.


    Liked this episode a lot.  Hate Witch That Sucks but at least she messed up in like the first two seconds of being on screen this time.  Didn't have to wait forever for her to fail miserably this episode.  She can't even look in a mirror without screwing up.  Left the mirror tuned to The Ichabod Channel (TIC in your local mirror viewing listings) for Henry's viewing pleasure.


    Love the Gorgon.  Need to have every crazy thing in all myths and legends on this show or it loses it's funny mojo.  About time for Greek mythology.  And tied in with the Knights Templar to boot.  Two for the price of one.  Actually add in the Book of Enoch too which is one of the non-approved by a council of boring old men "books" rejected from the Bible basically cause it has lots of cool, crazy stuff like this in it.


    So Jenny is taking Irving to Canada cause he will be safe when he crosses the border because ... why???  Did the Mounties go out on strike or something?


    I don't see Ichabod disrespecting Abbie.  He certainly didn't this episode as he pretty much offered himself up as a human sacrifice the first night/dawn and put himself in danger the next night for her.  And he backed away from the sword pulling realizing he was getting carried away with grabbing it and deferred to her.  She's the one who told him to go for it.  He takes stupid pills regards Crazy Red-Haired Woman Who Thinks She Is A Witch (but obviously isn't) but it's traditional that every hero have a flaw.   Unfortunately the writers made his flaw the Flaw of Flaws given how Witch Who Can't Witch is the most annoying character I've ever seen on any TV show ever.


    Dear writers.  More Headless remaining headless and loping heads off people already turned to stone and gorgons alike whilst playing with his shotgun on the side.  And more Abbie & Ichabod (and hopefully Jenny & Irving) saving the world and less Annoying Witch Of The Century (any century) and useless blonde-haired guy who steals time away from Jenny.  Thank you in advance.

    • Like 9

  14. Where is Spartacus now?  In the mountains outside of Sinuessa facing a trench and wall built by Crassus across the isthmus of Rhegium according to ye old internet.  Rhegium was on the "heel" part of Italy's southern boot shaped area.  Italy has tons of mountains so even that far south in the winter there would still be snow I guess.


    The torture of the one prisoner was pretty gruesome though gladiator fights to the death were common to celebrate victories and honor dead back then.  One thing to remember is that nowhere in the "west" at that time was there any religion, philosophy or ethical code that upheld the primacy of such concepts like mercy and compassion.  Neither the Romans (who had a very harsh but encoded system of justice) nor the Greeks (who viewed the gods and fate as totally capricious) nor the Jews (still in eye for an eye mode) nor the Egyptians nor the northern tribes like the Gauls, Germans, Celts (some of who still had human sacrifice) etc had this in place.  We are still a hundred years away from the first person to manifest that teaching in the west though it was already being taught in places like India where the Buddha gave out a version of the golden rule 400 plus years earlier. 


    We tend to forget just how radical and revolutionary Jesus' teachings were back then.  Such things were the beginnings of a totally new outlook in the west.  Yes his teachings got twisted by states and religions down the years but that wasn't his fault and there were enough people who didn't completely twist things up into the opposite that it did start a revolution in thinking among many.  A revolution that toned down some of the more out and out brutality in the west to the point that it would now be correctly called sociopathic like you just did. 


    That is a quantum leap for mankind.  But one whose beginnings are still over a hundred years away at the time of Spartacus and Crassus.  That's why it is so hard to see some of the things happening in this series the way they were viewed back then as being "acceptable" behavior.  It isn't.  There are absolutes you just don't do that trump relativistic cultural values of any day I believe and tearing a man apart for fun is one of them.  But most of the Romans viewing something like that didn't think that way.  Nor vice versa among many in the slave army if they got their hands on some Romans.  History isn't just a change in clothing or inventions over the years but also of ideas and ethics.  Yeah there are monsters in our age too but the shared "ground of being" of the majority of us of this age view them as monsters at least.


    Whew, that got OT I guess.  But maybe still it is on topic I guess since the whole appeal of the re-telling of the Spartacus revolt for those of us in this age is that it was one of the first flickers of light concerning the concept that it is the right of all men to be free.  That slavery is evil.  Another idea and ethic that wasn't accepted by many then but is pretty much universally accepted these days.  Spartacus, like Buddha and Jesus, helped change and shape our modern world for the better I'd say.

    • Like 4

  15. Let's see.  Agron is still one jealous dude ... but he does stop to listen some by the end of the episode.  Tiberius is a gross little sh*t not that we didn't know that already.  Little Sybil has a school girl crush on Gannicus.  Crixus is still taking stupid pills ... until Spartacus lets him in on his really way cool plan.  But Crassus and Caesar have a way cool plan too (everyone does except the Cylons it seems) and they, alas, execute theirs first.


    The good news, head pirate dude is killed and Crixus is back on board.  Naevia even apologizes to Gannicus with a "me bad" about killing his friend.  The bad.  Pretty much everything else as Spartacus orders an "abandon ship" of Sinuessa en Valle just when I freaking learn to spell it. 


    Meanwhile Caesar is having the time of his life now as he can drop his pretense and is totally in his element and seeing victory laurels in his future.  He also gets the best line of the episode at the end where Agron, Saxa and big axe dude see the dragon's head battering ram breach the main gate through the flames and he looks at them and says "This is the part where you turn and run."  Hah, got to love Caesar's flair for the dramatic while bringing the funny on that one.


    Nice that the next episode airs tonight so this cliff hanger episode doesn't hang a full week.

    • Like 2

  16. Spartacusopolis, hah!  Good one, Chicago Redshirt


    You also made me curious enough to try and look up the name of the city on a TV series website.  it is named Sinuessa en Valle.  (Maybe just Sin for short, cough).  Further googling led to the info that it is a fictional construct.  The real city it is somewhat based on was Thurri which is a shorter name and easier to spell so of course they didn't use that.  TPTB love to make the spelling hard for me, grrrr.


    Anyway the real (and the fictional) city are both located in the south of Italy close to but not right on the straights to Sicilia (Sicily).  Sicily was important back then because before Egypt became a province of Rome (you got to wait for an older Caesar and Cleopatra for that to happen), Sicily was the breadbasket of the Roman Republic.  They keep mentioning Sicilian grain a lot since the city they occupy seems to be a major trading port with Sicily and it's farms offered enough food to feed the slave army. 


    Also the Spartacus revolt is also referred to by Roman historians as the Third Servile War.  (And the biggest and scariest of the three from the Roman pov).  Servile means what it sounds like.  Servile, servant, slave.  Thus the third slave revolt.  The first two took place among the agricultural slaves of Sicily's large plantation estates so historians sometimes think Sicily was seen not just as a way to get food for the slaves but to free and recruit slaves there who in the recent past seemed more than ready to fight.  The problem though is that it is separated from the rest of Italy by water thus the need for the Cilician pirates and their ships.  And pirates aren't always the most reliable sorts.  Argh!


    This episode?  A hard one to watch regards the massacre of the Roman citizens lead by our power couple of Crixus and Naevia.  Hey Naevia, stop trying to kill Gannicus as well.  He was right you know.  Or you will know eventually.  Doesn't help the poor blacksmith at this point though.  Again a mob can be so easily aroused to do terrible things and Crixus always was the type to jump to conclusions first, facts later.  Lots of blood on both sides with people just minding their own business caught in between.  Most of those Romans weren't rich and a lot weren't even middle class.  Few of them ever owned slaves.  Judging by the group is never ever a good thing.


    But judging by the group was the thing with both sides.  Thus decimation which Crassus actually did indeed use and it was considered freaking old school harsh even then.  It certainly got their attention because (history nerding again)  " ... according to Appian, the troops' fighting spirit improved dramatically thereafter, since Crassus had demonstrated that 'he was more dangerous to them than the enemy.'"


    Also the same Crassus page mentioned a few fun factoids.  His grandfather, who bore the same name as his, Marcus Licinius Crassus "was facetiously given the Greek nickname Agelastus (the grim) by his contemporary Gaius Lucilius, the famous inventor of Roman satire, who asserted that he smiled once in his whole life."  The actor who is playing the more famous grandson here has got the "grim" down for this Crassus.  Must run in the family, heh.


    Also we all know that Crassus is the richest man in Rome.  Well what I didn't know, and I guess others here might not know either, was just how rich.


    "Crassus's wealth is estimated by Pliny at approximately 200 million sestertii. Plutarch says the wealth of Crassus increased from less than 300 talents at first to 7,100 talents, or close to $8.4 Billion US dollars today, accounted right before his Parthian expedition, most of which Plutarch declares Crassus got 'by fire and rapine, making his advantage of public calamities'."


    Such "calamities" including "proscriptions" against wealthy political rivals accused often falsely.  Sulla (who destroyed Lucius' wealth and family, remember) used this widely and others like Crassius snuck in and grab some wealth that way while these purges were going on.  "Proscriptions meant that their political enemies lost their fortunes and their lives; that their female relatives (notably, widows and widowed daughters) were forbidden to remarry; and that in some cases, their families' hopes of rebuilding their fortunes and political significance were destroyed. Crassus is said to have made part of his money from proscriptions, notably the proscription of one man whose name was not initially on the list of those proscribed but was added by Crassus who coveted the man's fortune."


    "Some of Crassus' wealth was acquired conventionally, through traffic in slaves, production from silver mines, and speculative real estate purchases. Crassus tended to specialize in deals involving proscribed citizens and especially and notoriously purchasing during fires or structural collapse of buildings. When buildings were burning, Crassus and his purposely-trained crew would show up, and Crassus would offer to purchase the presumably doomed property and perhaps neighboring endangered properties from their owners for speculatively low sums ..."  Article goes on to say if the owners refused his low offers he and his men refused to help fight the fire.  Yes he showed up that early to buy the properties. 


    Makes you wonder if he might have even helped start a few.  What a guy.  Of course now I imagine him tooling around Rome in his vans filled with slave crews with the "Marcus Crassus Slum Renovators Inc" logo on them.


    In other news, Agron is one jealous dude.  Caesar is happily enjoying his work of sh*t stirring.  Gannicus needs an Excedrin.  And Spartacus is finding out that keeping tight control and discipline over a gladiator/slave army is like herding cats.

    • Like 3

  17. I am gobsmacked that Dave decided to buy-in to a Hoffman partnership.  I am with his brothers.  I hope it worked out for him.  I can't believe it will (did).  If that claim was THAT rich, and there were literally no other claims worth a fig which were unbought, as claimed in the first eps of this season, how on earth did everyone else pass on it????? 


    I assume production "bought" the claim or reserved it anyway as a way to get Todd back into the show.  There probably wasn't any "failed" operation either but rather a production set-up from the get go providing Todd with the easiest mining anyone ever did in the history of mining.  Now they brought back Dave?  Any real person would have stayed with the sane Dodge Brothers.  This is all totally scripted period.


    This thing has become totally unwatchable.  Lazy, never does any work himself, nagging, whining, mean-spirited and full of it Todd "saved" by being propped up by production.  Dave being a total idiot leaving a good outfit to sell his soul to the devil again.  And Parker becoming a cruel despot in his treatment of his workers before he even turns 20.  Former likeable boy wonder turned into a jack-booted dictator.  Don't like any of them.


    The Dutch couple are funny enough when taken in small doses.  Dodge Brothers looked really interesting so of course we can't watch them.  But these two groups are the only ones worth watching. 


    I can't stand anyone let alone bosses treating people with total cruelty and lack of respect and that is both Todd and Parker in a nutshell.  Won't watch this show ever again.

    • Like 1

  18. This is not Survivor specific, but since a couple of you have mentioned it, there is a much easier way to quote multiple posts- as long as you're on a computer or tablet (not a phone, I don't think).

    When you're reading through the thread and you realize you want to reply to a few posts, just hit the quote button underneath ALL of the posts you want to quote.  There is a pop up box that keeps a running tally and says "Respond to 3 quoted post(s)" (for example).  When you're done, just click that pop up box and it'll put all the quotes in the one box.  This is what I did to quote all of  the above.  If it's still not clear, please PM me.


    There's also a Questions thread with instructions on quoting here http://forums.previously.tv/topic/4049-how-do-i-quote-a-post/#entry166558


    Thanks so much.  I'd click on the first quote and see the box pop up and it looked like there were only two options I could do at that point.  Click on either 1 Quote or Clear.  I mean it popped-up so I had to select one or the other.  I never remotely considered I could just ignore the box and it would add more quotes as I went along.  What a weird quote tool dynamic.  But now that I know I'm ready to quote up a storm all in one post next time around.  Thanks again!  Makes a world of difference!

    • Like 2

  19. I think there was a ton of sexist footage shown myself.  Mileage varies etc but Alec, to me, is as much of a chauvinist as anyone I've ever seen on Survivor and that is saying a lot.  And Keith & Wes are just a step behind him.

    • Like 17

  20. I think it's interesting that Hawley is perceived as "stealing" Jenny's screen time. Really it's Katrina. ...


    I think the point is that blonde dude has replaced Jenny's role and has become a male version of Jenny.  A slightly gray, outside-the-law person who can kick some ass and has the long experience and ability to find the artifact of the week thus making Jenny in effect replaced and not needed.  How weirdly idiotic to give him all of Jenny's attributes and skills.


    Also I hate he is suppose to be Abbie's future boyfriend or something.  Why oh why does every woman "need" to have a man in her life all the time on TV shows.  That is totally different then real life.  And plenty of male characters on shows are all about their careers and/or action guys battling evil without the "need" for a girl friend to prop them up and somehow give them the happiness they can't possible find on their own (barf).  Show must have an all male writing staff so full of themselves who think "the little ladies" can't exist without love interests every 2 minutes.

    • Like 1

  21. Why isn't anyone trying to vote Alec out? I feel like I'm missing out on some information. Or maybe I would just stab him in the head & call it a day.


    Alec (I thought it was Alex, shows how little attention I've been paying him) isn't the threat.  Josh was.  Josh was the "mastermind" running Alec's alliance.  Alec can only run his mouth.  He is fish bait (or possibly a goat) without Josh.  He is the last person in that alliance I'd worry about at this point.  Jaclyn is way too smart to take her vengeance out on Alec personally.  If you are upset with your treatment then you have to assure you can gain control of that situation in which case you destroy the offending parties (plural) alliance while setting yourself up in a winning alliance.  That is true revenge Survivor style.


    Knee jerk reactions don't get anyone anywhere in a strategy game unless those emotions get re-channeled into taking a look at the big picture again.  It's a game of strategy, not personal revenge.  Emotions can't be shut off but using those negative actions taken against you to step back and  re-asses a choice you almost made and decide to go with the other alliance instead to further your own chances in the game is the best way to get that revenge.


    Sorry, I still don't know how to do more than one quote in a single post.  Thus the three in a row posts.  Can anyone point me to instructions on how to do multi-quotes in one post?  All I see when I click on the quote icon is access to one single quote.  Not multiple ones or quotes inside quote multiples either.  Been trying to figure this out for over a month or more now.  Why is it not clear when clicking the quote icon how to do this stuff or is it just me?

    • Like 6

  22. ... . But the hell did Josh mean by he "showed too much of his real self" and that's why he was voted out? Waht you bully people that "owe you" favors in real life too? Though I'm pretty sure he meant that he feels he was turned on because he's gay, which sucks if he feels that way from a myriad of angles.


    I don't think he meant he was turned on because he was gay.  I saw no anti-gay behavior from the other alliance ever.  I think he meant he was too out in front of being the head of his alliance and the one making all the moves.  He was too much almost badgering Baylor into feeling guilty.  He couldn't stop plotting and working things constantly and dial it back a notch and fade more into the background like Reed did.  He was the upfront major strategist in his alliance and clearing running things.  That is what put the target on his back.

    • Like 9

  23. I'm a terrible strategist . . .


    Can someone explain to me why everyone on that stupid island is just accepting the fact that Jon and Jaclyn are ALWAYS going to vote together, but no one has verbalized the idea that the smart thing to do is vote out one of them (probably Jon)?  That would be an amazing blindside.  The remaining person would be REALLY pissed, but this is Survivor . . . it's part of the game to be pissed at someone.  And that person would then only be ONE vote, not an automatic TWO votes.


    Am I missing something?


    Yes I think you are.  Jeremy-Natalie-Missy-Baylor needed TWO votes to survive, not one.  Also with Josh the obvious guy in charge of the other alliance they need him out first and foremost. 


    Josh also needed their votes plus his selling point to bring in Jon-Jaclyn was that his was "the couples alliance" where all couples would remain safe until after the singles were voted out.  If he betrayed a couple too early it would upset Keith/Wes probably.  And he saw Jeremy and the hard core four he "headed" as the main opponents gunning for him.


    Most likely one if not both of team Jon-Jaclyn will be voted out sometime but this is not the time for either to go.  Their two-person voting block was way too valuable to both sides.  Plus they aren't the only two person voting block right now so they don't stand out as a singular, unique danger to others at his point.  After awhile the fact that they are a voting block of two will make them the obvious choice.  But not now.


    I really enjoyed this episode.  I can't see Jon-Jaclyn flipping again for a few votes cause if Jon is thinking that far ahead that he imagines himself next to Jeremy at the end then he should also realize he needs to count jury votes and getting both sides pissed at him would mean he would get zero votes.  This was the episode where they chose their side and any flip-flopping after this will screw them over.


    And since I'm rooting for Jeremy-Natalie-Baylor, I'm happy about that.  Thank you Jerks Inc. (Alex, Wes & Keith).  Nice to see jerks doing themselves in like that.  Great to see nasty behavior get it's just reward.


    I'm really enjoying this season.  I don't find it dull at all.  More like somewhat pleasant once that disgusting bigot Rocker got sent packing.  Dumb, chauvinist jerks I can handle on Survivor short term especially when their actions have immediate consequences for their side.  Give me a season of instant karma like this so far and I'm all in on it.


    Also props to Baylor taking that jerk's garbage to the ocean and biting her tongue.  Waiting for a real revenge is way better than exploding all over the guy in the moment and screwing yourself over making yourself a target.  Shows a lot of discipline and smarts on how to play the game.  In this case justice delayed won't be justice denied I think given the editing we are getting regards Mister Jerk Brother #2.


    My only question is why did they send Jon to Exile Island since people usually get clues for immunity idols there.  Now it turned out the perfect choice for the fortunes of the Jeremy-Natalie-Missy-Baylor side but they were not to know it at that time.

    • Like 7
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