natyxg

Even if she does remember, they won't believe her because she was drunk and the story is quite outrageous.

Lets be real: that is why she was drunk to begin with (storywise, I mean).

I feel the same way. I watch this show because of how great Tatiana Maslany is, but the writing is not that great imo. Specially in season 2. They just want to explore everything all the time, go in a million directions and I basically don't care too much about that and the mysteries of the clones. It feels like they just want to keep going wide and wide, instead of deeper. I just like the clones themselves because they are such great characters. From the article, I'm using spoiler tags just in case (we need a spoiler thread!) It poses no questions to me because I doooooon't caaaareeeeee about the boy clones. Also: NO! I don't want them to be in their own worlds again. That is the opposite of what I look forward to, and what made season two so messy, that all of them were in their own world. Augh.

Very good point. That marriage may not be legal anyway. I think Magda is lying about walking to keep Petra under her thumb, through guilt and by making herself appear helpless so Petra wil never leave her. About Sin Rostro: what about Rose? Rafael's father doesn't seem intriguing to me at all, but I keep wondering what the hell she's about, why did a lawyer just quit to become a trophy wife? Why so adamant to keep her marriage when it's obvious she doesn't love him? Maybe there is some convoluted backstory there about Sin Rostro being her dad and secret rival to Raf's dad, and now she has come back for revenge by taking his place and operating at the hotel to frame Raf's dad.. or something. lol. I used to think she is too unimportant to be SR, but maybe that's the point.

Oooh, I hadn't thought of Rachel/Cosima! Yes, please! I want to see Rachel soften, but since they did it with Helena I fear they will do the opposite of that with her.

Thanks, Tigershark.

Excellent point! When the whole thing started I feared that they would reveal that Jane had signed some papers when she decided to give the baby to Petra and Rafael. But when it turned out that she didn't, because no one mentioned them, I couldn't understand why Jane and Raf didn't just laugh in Petra's face and gave her the finger. Metaphorically speaking, of course. I get that Jane was afraid of court proceedings because of her abuela, but that seemed to be like it could be squashed in one visit to the courtroom. Maybe there is a lawyer lurking around her that could confirm it would've been like that?

Because she was living under a false identity and such? By the time Petra met Rafael she had a life as Petra and was so into her role that she wasn't going to risk that. Plus, by the time she married Rafael the issue was solved. The problem was that Ivan came back recently and she had no money to give him because she was separating/divorcing Rafael. After she cheated on him and they could no longer stand each other she was gonna ask for his help? I don't think so. My problem with that scene was that they could've just gone back 5 minutes later, when the cost was clear, and LOOK AT THE STUFF IN THE SAFE. It makes no sense that they would not want to look at it thoroughly, specially considering that they had all night to do it. Even if he opened the safe with a warrant and everything was still there, he could've ended up looking like a fool if it was full of innocent things that he didn't bother to check when he had the chance. I thought the same thing, frankly. Why? The child is not hers biologically. Jane signed nothing. Isn't it the equivalent of Jane being "the other woman" and carrying Rafael's child? Jane is NOT a surrogate. Surrogates sign a contract and if the surrogate is the bio mother they would even have to give away their parental rights, I imagine. None of this has happened.

I think it was about Rafael being exposed to Jane's day to day life. He is a rich kid, always has been. Jane isn't. Up till very recently she always took the bus, and I think she still takes it on occasion. So it was the equivalent of Rafael taking her in a Limo to a fancy affair of his, which I assume will happen at some point. I think the flashback DID disprove the theory of Magda being Sin Rostro. First of all, because it established Magda and Natalia as common folk back at their country. From their flashback and the story Petra/Natalia told Jane, it didn't sound like they came from money. And in that case they wouldn't owe money to that guy or wouldn't have to desperately scramble for money now that he's back. they didn't seem powerful. It seemed to me that Petra was just a commoner who got involved with a nasty guy that she's running from now. Secondly, the timing doesn't fit. Sin Rostro is a renown drug dealer who disappeared for 5 years and now is back. So six years ago, when Petra and Magda were still in their country, SR was already established over at the US. I don't think it's coincidence that they picked exactly this episode to start throwing suspicion Rafael's way... I think it's because this episode "cleared" Magda and Petra. I do think Magda killed that guy who got impaled, though. For the same reason she pushed Alba down the stairs: to protect Petra and herself. In fact, both incidents are similar, the other guy was pushed out of a window, IIRC. The only thing that might tie Magda and Petra to SR is that guy who arrived at the hotel in a SR cargo. He was from their country. Maybe it's Petra's ex and the real SR tipped him off? I don't know what they will come up with, but right now I don't think it's Magda. It's obviously not gonna be Rafael either.

I doubt it's about boundaries. I think it's about publicity for the show. That's basically a cast photo.

1. I did! I thought Mary had lots of acting chops from the very beginning! Lol. I really, really liked Mary. Overrall she made the show for me, even though there were places where I thought she was weak (as a character, I mean). I really, really loved how wicked she was with Increase. This is an interesting show for me because I am rooting for the villains hardcore. 2. I was pretty shocked by the death of the Hales. And I was sorry to see them die, too. I thought they were too horrible. I was fine with Anne till now, but I fear she will start to annoy me now. 3. Terrible. Mercy is terrible. I hate, hate her and Alden because I think their acting is terrible. Alden has to charisma, and has no chemistry with anyone. And he became surprisingly weaker as a character as the season progressed, he couldn't even save himself, the damn indians had to save his ass. Zzzzzz. Mary is too good for him (as a character, I mean). Exactly! That is why I love Mary. I thought they were able to maintain a pretty good balance with, a good duality with her. And it made sense and didn't feel forced. I thought the actress was pretty good, too. As much as I hate John and kept wanting him to die, I thought her love for him made her interesting. My one gripe was how they threw Mary/Tituba under the bus. I think they deserved to have an interesting relationship as well, so I was annoyed that Mary didn't even try to help Tituba but then was all predictably 'Increase MUST DIE' when John was arrested. If she love hates tituba because she got her into witchcraft, then show that, damn it! I always lean towards female characters, so I wanted to see more of them, even though the actress who plays Tituba needs to improve a lot. 1. Gloriana was banished, not killed. 2. Well, in Alden's defence, he didn't know that Mary was the leader. And he didn't know that they were framing the innocents and stuff. And she did go back to stop the Grand Rite... while he sat around the woods all day and did nothing. Yikes, how his character fell.

Same! I really, really loved that season. Season two was just okay, entertaining enough but not as good. And Coven was beyond awful, so I am not even watching the current one. Season one, hands down, IMO:

I think Beth was a plot device/redshirt for the majority of her time on the show, but that changed in the second half of season 4. Hell, they even gave her a whole episode, just for her. If they were gonna just randomly blow her head off nonsensically, then they should've let her be a MacGuffin that was never even shown on screen while she was missing, and made it all about Maggie and Daryl angsting over finding her. I didn't love Beth. I didn't want her to die because I thought she was a cute blonde that I found harmless. Then, because she started trying, I wanted her to make it. But in reality, I wanted to like her more than I did. There was always something off, something missing. I shed no tears for her. Still, her death bothered me because I sat through like two episodes of her and Daryl, an episode of Daryl angsting over losing her and joining that gang, an entire episode with her alone in the hospital, an episode of Daryl and Carol looking for her, half of the midseason finale dedicated to her and Dawn.... and the payoff was super stupid. I am not here for dumb shit like this.

Very well said. I agree. I don't think Beth acted impulsively either. I don't know why she took the scissors to begin with, I'm not sure that at the moment she planned to kill Dawn with them. But I really think that at the moment that Dawn said that Noah had to stay, Beth decided to kill her because she realized the kind of person she had truly become, regardless all of her excuses. She was just like the other jerk cops Beth killed, even though she didn't go around raping women. So her walk towards Dawn, how she stared her down, her line about getting it... all through that she was planning to kill her. So it's just weird that she sucked so bad at it and it was just so stupid. Now, besides the stupidity of the death, it does bother me that they gave her an arc that they just randomly decided to close by killing her. She didn't have to have some heroic death, but I think she deserved a death that made sense in execution and made sense within the whole of her arc. Because they gave her an arc. If she was just of the gang that got randomly eaten, well okay. But as I was watching her plot I thought it was about her becoming stronger and harder, but then at the last minuted they changed it to her being the new Dawn and Dawn being the new Hansen, or something. And to top it off her actual death was completely nonsensical to me. I thought it was a damn mess and the directing was weird. Plus, we didn't even get a good reunion with the gang, after all that. It was just lame to me. Felt like they were just going for shock value because it was the midseason finale, and then later they will go for angst. We'll have to see if the angst will be mostly Maggie's or mostly Daryl's, or if it will be evenly distributed.

This is supposed to air on Monday? But I watched it already on Hulu. *Scratches head*

I'm up to ep 2.7, so these may change when I finish the season. Some are also not very original, but here we go: 1. No more kidnapping Kira. 2. No more kidnapping Helena. 3. Giving the clones a shared storyline. What I like the most are the clone's relationship with each other, so it gets tiresome to see them all doing their thing separately. The clone party and sweet Cosima/Sarah scene in the finale are totally my favorite scenes in the series. 4. Please stop fucking Helena up. Poor girl has been through enough. 5. The reveal that everyone is a double agent or something is getting tiresome, so maybe less of that. 6. Paul can go. 7.Vic can go. 8. Art's partner can go. 9. More Cosima/Sarah. They are my favorite clones so together they are even more awesome. 10. More Alison and Felix. 11. Donny can go. 12. More Sarah and Kira's dad. He seems like a good guy and it could be a nice love story. He's certainly more charismatic than Paul to me. 13. More of Helena and Sarah. That's another relationship I love.

I agree completely. It made no sense to me whatsoever. I don’t know if it was scripted that way or if it was a decision made on the day, but it made no sense. She should've gone for the neck, and they could've killed each other or something.

I didn't get the sense that she was committing suicide because I didn't get the impression that the hospital was wearing her down THAT much. I thought the hospital arc was about her hardening like the rest of the gang. There was no one to protect her there, but she survived. And she learned to do what she had to. The Beth that would've left Grady would've been different than the Beth that got in, for sure, but she didn't seem suicidal to me. Actually, it would've been an interesting storyline to see her outside of the hospital, and seeing how others reacted to her change. I think Beth as a character had some more life left in her. Frankly, I found her death really odd, from a writing point of view. Pointless, even. I understand that Beth felt she had to kill Dawn because she had become the new Hansen (?), and that it was the end of their arc together. After all, Dawn was her main relationship at the hospital and during the hospital arc. But it was weird that she dies basically by accident. It was like she tried to do this heroic thing and 'oops, didn't work!' I find it an odd choice. I know TWD is a very gloomy show and people can die at any moment, but it felt odd and wrong to create a whole arc that culminates in a random event. If she had been randomly eaten by a walker on a supply run I think i would've found it less odd and less bothersome, like when Bob died. Frankly, I too get the feeling that she was killed just for the Daryl angst and I don't like it either. Well, for Daryl angst and for shock value. And I think it's messed up that no one in the gang will even understand what her death was about because both her and Dawn died.

I didn't like the hospital plot either. At this point the whole 'group of people start out good but become bad' has gotten repetitive. The shocking thing will be if they find a group that actually works and has a good leader. The hospital thing was also pretty meh. It was a bad place because the cops were enslaving weaker people and raping women, but it never became an interesting place. Maybe if the whole gang was there trapped and we spent a few episodes getting to know the characters it would have been better, but we didn't. It felt very superficial and the actors were pretty bad. It was also not creepy. There was no real sense of urgency. Hell, nothing big even happens to Beth. She was almost raped, yes, but she wasn't raped or tortured or anything that gave urgency to the situation. It's not that I wanted those things to happen to her, but I think we had to see them happen to someone, from their POV, so we could really feel the place was terrible, so we desperately wanted Beth and the orderlies to escape. Hell, IIRC we don't even see Noah get beaten, do we? So it's like I get it intellectually, but couldn't really get invested. It's weird that they traded cannibals and Terminus for that.

Thoughts on the episode. *I continue to hate the priest more and more. What was supposed to be the point of him seeing the leg and stuff? Did he not believe Bob, who came with his leg cut off? I thought it was a very contrived way to put him in the same position that he put his congregation: outside the church and begging for help. But who cares? I wanted him to get eaten for continuing to put people in danger thanks to his uselessness. And I didn't understand why this lame subplot took so much screentime in the mid season finale. Michonne is a badass though, and that's always nice to see. *Having seen the entire episode I understand what Beth was going for when she stabbed Dawn. The Hansen history had repeated itself and Beth felt she had to kill Dawn. I actually liked their relationship in this episode. What I don't understand is why Beth didn't stab her in the neck. It seemed like a weird on set decision to stab her with those little scissors in the shoulder, since I don't think the script was supposed to be telling us that Beth hesitated and didn't go for the kill. Her entire arc was about hardening like the rest of the group, and she had killed that cop earlier, so... *Holy shit, is Carol wolverine?!! The day before she was dying, but she literally walked out of the hospital. *I didn't like that we didn't get a good Beth/Carol moment when Carol woke up. Actually, I thought there were quite a few "moments" I wish we had gotten, but didn't. I felt the reaction to Beth's death wasn't strong enough for me, specially in terms of the directing and the editing. I wanted close ups! *Poor Maggie. *Poor Beth. She was a cutie and I have a soft spot for cuties, so I was bummed out that she died. I was spoiled, so I was expecting it, but hoped it wasn't true. I think she says "I didn't mean it".

It really, really does. EverCat: I think Beth stabbed Dawn in the shoulder for some reason. Was she going for the heart? The neck? The jugular? I don't know. But it didn't do any real damage. As a reflex, Dawn fired her gun and it got beth right in the head. When she realized what she had done she realized she was done for, which is why she started begging for mercy.

Hershel was her dad.

Thanks. I was skimming through the thread just now and saw someone mention it so I rewatched on a bigger screen, not my phone, and I saw it. So oops. But I still think the rest.

I couldn't catch the episode tonight, but I did see Beth's death scene and it was... weird. The directing and editing this season continue to baffle me, frankly. It's like they don't give a shit about clarity. Beth goes up to Dawn and whatever, then she seems to do something with her hand and we hear like flesh tearing... but we see shit. We don't see her hand, we don't see the wound, anything. I had to watch it two times before I thought "wait, did Beth stab her with those scissors?" which I thought was weird because it seemed to me like she was aiming for Dawn's middle. I mean, to stab her in the shoulder (was she going for the heart?) she needed to like raise her hand, and I didn't see that. Anyway, so Dawn shoots her and we assume she dies, but we don't see her fall or even see where the fuck she was shot. Like, do these people not remember that we don't have a script, that we go into it cold, and we need clarity to understand what's going on in the scene? I can't become too emotionally invested if I'm scratching my head wondering what just happened. I shouldn't have to watch the scenes various times or find explanations online to understand what happened in the scene, or what I was supposed to be looking out. This is like the third of fourth time I feel this way during this season. Also, I thought they needed to show more grieving of at least Daryl, I wanted him to go to her on the floor or something, not just go from Rick inviting people to come with to the gang leaving the hospital... and even then I was looking Beth over trying to figure out where she was shot, but still couldn't figure it out. I'm not even gonna talk much about Beth's motivations because I haven't seen the full ep yet so maybe it will make sense when I do, but just from that scene alone her death was really stupid. What was this kid supposed to be thinking? I'm sad she died, though, because she had been growing as a character. I'm actually annoyed that the lame, whimpy priest survived but she didn't.

I'm convinced that at the very least she killed that guy who got impaled in the ice. I thought it was very obvious when Michael thought Petra did it because someone used her mother's key card to open the entrance that lead to some stairs and he was all "obviously that wasn't your mom cause she's in a wheelchair". So, yeah, that was totally the mom. I don't know if she is Sin Rostro because if she was a drug lord, why wouldn't she just give Petra the money she needs? Unless even Petra doesn't know.