DotCotton

This is exactly the difference for me (I bolded the above lines). Now the show is a dramedy, I don't ever remember shedding tears with this show like I did last night. Rafael's father dying was never even meant to be a tearjerker imo. It was all just part of the Sin Rostro story line. Not to be taken seriously. The death of Rafael's father and Mateo's kidnapping where we knew he would be okay all worked in the tone of the show for the first couple of seasons. If they want to kill Michael off and keep the tone of the show as before don't let us get invested in him. Don't let his death be so tragic. Kill him off screen, make him a villain. As I said before I was completely unspoiled. If I had known that the show was taking a more serious turn or if it had truly been a dramedy in previous episodes, then I wouldn't be angry about his death. As Lebanna said above the show presented itself to us "dressed up in bright colors and quirky events and true love and cute babies and happy family" and that is what I signed up for when I went to watch this episode. Maybe it is still too soon for me, I just watched the show last night, but I can't see getting the joy out the show as I did before. It is almost like it has lost its innocence, which I know isn't the right word. Don't know how to express it. Maybe it just got too real for me and now I can't get the "real" out of my head. It will be awfully hard for me to watch the show now as quirky, etc. when I have Michael's death and the life he shared with Jane, Mateo and Rogelio fresh in my mind. Far too tragic. The show is still excellent and I've loved it but I am not up to going through the emotions with Michael flashbacks,etc. I already have too much real emotion in my life to deal with. Jane was a fun escape from it. I just don't see it being that way for me any longer. Maybe in a while I'll revisit it. Just not now. And yes I know I'm taking Michael's death far too seriously, dammit. Grrrrr!!! It should not have affected me so strongly!!! Damn this show!

Just watched this episode. This was a complete shock!! I've been ill the last month and totally out of the loop so was catching up on my shows. Also don't do much social media since the elections. I'm friggin' crying my butt off!! I don't expect that from Jane-not rip my heart out crying. Maybe some happy or bittersweet crying or from laughing but this was just...not right. This! I loved the show. I was not a Jane shipper with anyone. I just watched and enjoyed the show-all the characters, thought the format was clever and different. I even appreciated them going the route of Jane and Michael marrying. Showing that a happy couple doesn't have to ruin a show. But this??? I don't care if there is a time lapse in the show, there isn't a time lapse in my mind. I still just watched Michael die and everything on the show now will be tinged (is that the right word?) with that sadness. As Gin and Tonic said above, I'm now suppose to laugh at Rogelio and Petra? What the hell?!! My mind went to the show M.A.S.H. (yes, I'm old) which was categorized as a comedy but it was also about war and death and had many heart-wrenching moments. Col. Blake's death as an example. But it was a straight up dark comedy or even dramedy. We knew that was what it was and that is wasn't always laughs. There were some definitely shocking moments but that was the tone of the show. Some other comedies may have "teaching" moments when someone would die but it wasn't a main character. Also in some Norman Lear's comedies, we'd usually get a bit of seriousness. Jane was not a dark comedy. If they planned to kill Michael off then make him a baddie that we don't care about dying. Personally for me I just don't think I can watch it again. At least for a long time. Don't even think I can re-watch the first seasons. The Jane the Virgin I enjoyed is gone. And what pisses me off the most is that I'm having such an emotional reaction to this! It's a TV comedy for god's sake! *sigh*Gonna miss the show.

Regarding Shirley (I think that's her name) and her falling apart house that she had to pay rent to her husband for - What would happen if a wife didn't pay rent? Was this specific to Shirley or do all the wives have to pay rent? I noticed her husband is fixing up the house for a new sister-wife to live there. Will she have to pay rent? If he could afford to fix up the house, why didn't he do anything about it with Shirley? So he hates Shirley and wants to punish her, I get that, but what about his children who live there?! Doesn't he care about their living conditions? Forget that question, he doesn't. I forgot who I was talking about. It's obvious that none of the fathers love their children. They may say they do but actions speak louder than words. They love whatever they can "get" from their children. No loving parent would be so neglectful. What about The Order schools? As someone mentioned above, there are laws about children and their education, including homeschooling. Are their schools inspected by the state or some government authority? Maybe being in Utah has something to do with it? The authorities are more lax? The Order Bank-what the heck? I just do not see why some of The Order stuff can't be shut down. Make it harder on the men. They have got to be breaking so many laws. Grrrr! I'm getting so frustrated with the way they get away with things!

Thanks to all for the links, books and film recommendations. I've binged on this show for the last week or so and have become obsessed. It just blows my mind that this is allowed to happen in the States. Not so much the polygamy but the incest, rape, child molestation, brainwashing, child neglect (no healthcare, no education), etc. I always knew there were polygamists out there and extremist ones but did not realize the extent of it. I understand in Colorado City, the FLDS run everything but what about state and federal government? Similar to what Texas did with "Zion" . But then you have the reality of these poor children being taken away from the only life they've known, the only family, the women having no life skills for the real world. Lizzy and Julie are the perfect example. It's a no win situation. Heartbreaking. My husband is Iranian and was raised Muslim (no longer active). It's crazy that in Iran the women are given more opportunities than these polygamist women. For example, the women have the opportunity to get a higher education. I have a niece who is a lawyer, another one owns her own business, another one who teaches karate. My sisters-in-law pretty much run the family behind close doors. Of course, the government and their laws are horribly misogynist and anti anything not Shia but they do allow the women to be educated.

My question is when did Norman's blackout begin that night? When he is upset in Dr. Edward's car, he says he doesn't know how he got there. Did it start soon after he threw up his meds, while still at the facility? At first I thought it started when he was in the room with the stripper and the bra drops on the floor. It triggered memories of the teacher and he became Norma. But then he says in the car he doesn't even remember getting there. Does he remember hitchhiking, escaping the facility? I re-watched to look for hints of when it starts and I'm still stumped. Oh-and I loved his conversation with Dickie, including the handshake. Gave me a chuckle.

So this is the first season I've not watched TAR. I just couldn't deal with the idea of the whole cast being social media stars. One or two is okay. I deal with it, but seriously, the whole cast? What happened to ordinary people contestants? Or if you are going to do a group of people, why not teachers, or anything but people who just want to ham it up? There are entertaining people from all walks of life not just in the media. Will there ever be another TAR without stunt casting? Grrrr! That being said, I'm missing Phil and traveling around the world. Is it worth me giving a try? I'm tempted to at least try it but I feel like I'm contributing to the demise of the show if I do! Anyone watching who had similar thoughts? Should I give it a try?

Thanks so much for the explanation. The children have been driving me crazy. I didn't associate them with the suicide group. At one point I thought Etienne was a pedophile because of those children. I could not figure them out. Did we see any other children of the suicide group members? What became of them? I feel like I miss so much watching on my own. Thank goodness for these boards!

I had a thought about this in the shower this morning. Damn show follows me everywhere! Suicide seems to be a major theme in the show starting with the mass suicide (technically not suicide) of Milan's cult. Simon's parents were part of the suicide group. Was his mother pregnant with him at the time? If so how did survive? The Horde seems to be able to force people to do things. I was thinking maybe Simon's parents made him kill himself. The Horde wasn't awakened at the time of his suicide but I imagine his parents could still have been able to mess with his mind. But this brings up a new question. Wasn't Simon's mother pregnant with him when she died? If so, how is he even alive? Or am I imagining this?

I just watched the finale and immediately came here to make sense of it all. Thank you to posters for clarifying some things. So at the end when Etienne tells Victor he can actually change things, Victor then saved Julie, right? When Julie was about to jump into the sinkhole, it looked empty, but when Julie woke up, it was full of water. Do I have that wrong? Did Victor make the horde disappear? Lucy told him that they needed his help. I started to think maybe Victor actually went back in time to change things but that doesn't make sense because Nathan was still alive. I don't understand why Adele would leave Chloe. But there were a lot bigger things I didn't understand. This is crazy that I love this show although I don't understand a lot of it!

Regarding the scene at the beach with Julie. I think the boy at the beach could be the baby she lost when she was attacked.

Thank you for the recap, dbklmt. It explained some things I was confused by. Where is the memorial/bus crash location? Is it where the "returned" people live or is it in the town with the living people? I need a map! So is the town of the returned people located under water (in the flooded area)? I know they have to go via water to visit either place. Yep, I'm going to have to re-watch it-probably more than once!

I'm confused about Gabriel, the mattress man. Was he alive this whole time? I thought Sally had killed him and put his ghost (that doesn't seem like the right word, but I don't know what else to call it) in the mattress. Sort of like an eternal hell for him. If he was alive, did he then die in the hospital? Of course, I could be trying think logically which I should know better than to do with this show. I just can't get into the Lady Gaga character. I keep seeing Lady Gaga instead of the Countess. But other than that I am loving this season.

If Tyrell and Elliot are the same person, what about when Elliot went to Steel Mountain. I can't remember exactly but weren't the other members of FSociety watching him? Wouldn't they have seen him with Tyrell? If he is Tyrell, why would he have to use the different ploys to get into Steel Mountain?

I also think Joanna knew Elliot before this meeting. The way she talked to him and when she called him "Ollie" as if she knew that wasn't his real name. She was talking to him almost as if she was just humoring him, knowing that he has multiple personalities. Then she speaks Danish to send her menacing message.To me that makes it look like she knows Tyrell was with Elliot. Maybe she's known about or even known Elliot for a while. After all, she was pretty much the mastermind behind Tyrell's rise (or attempted rise) to power until Tyrell had to go and strangle a woman. Elliot and her may even have a past together. Oh and what about her first baby?! Why even bring up the baby? Just to show that she has secrets from Tyrell? There has to be more there, right? Or am I just over-analyzing it? Did I miss something or did we not see the Chekhov Popcorn Gun?! They even showed Darlene putting the gun in the popcorn during the "previously on..." as if it was an important scene. Ug! So many questions unanswered! All I feel like I really know for sure is that Elliot's father/Mr. Robot is not a real person. Hell, his father as presented in his mind may not have ever existed. This show drives me crazy, but I'm addicted to the craziness. Rami Malek better at least be nominated for an Emmy if not wining one. He is just so friggin' good!

The trailer I saw for the show was Emma and Rylan acting like posh Brits sipping teas. Ug. Already setting up the stereotypes, proper Brits vs obnoxious Americans. I always enjoyed CBB UK until they started the American stereotyping. Of course the American celebs they get fit the stereotypes perfectly. I guess us (Americans) make it too easy for the CBB producers. We are such an easy target. It would be nice if at least one of the Americans was articulate and intelligent. I liked CBB UK back when it was just a bunch of crazy celebrities including different nationalities. Unless there are celebrities that I really want to see, I may give this one a miss.