LadyMustang65

I wonder, though. It was a contemporary, which has no formal structure. And the use of props seems to be quite widespread as well. At least they actually used it to good effect. And I give her props for the trust fall.

Shangela was a true gem and just a really good person. I loved how on Instagram she would congratulate the couple who went home each week and say something nice about them or share a memory. Loved her spirit.

Tyra probably wears stilettos so add another 4" - 6" to her height. Maybe if she switched to flat shoes and wore simpler dresses that weren't so overwhelming, it might look better.

In psychological terms, shyness is defined as a fear of negative judgment. So for someone who is truly shy and just not mistaking it for some other form of social anxiety to constantly put themselves in a position where they are inviting others to judge them does not make sense. I've known some people who were truly shy, and they never did anything to draw attention to themselves. Just the thought of being noticed was enough to cripple them. To the point where even asking a salesclerk in a store where to find something they needed was a horrible experience for them. So I don't believe Charli is actually shy. She may have some form of social anxiety, but I don't believe she is actually shy. More likely she is an introvert (who is someone who can enjoy being around people and performing but then needs time alone to recharge), but that doesn't garner the same sympathy as being "shy" does. I still think that whole "shy" thing was a manufactured narrative by the show runners (along with the whole "I wasn't finding joy in dancing any more so I went on a dance show where I was forced to dance to regain that joy" arc). I was surprised to find out that, as part of the contract for being on the show, the show has complete control over the celeb's narrative, and they are have to go along with it. So if they sense chemistry, they craft a "showmance" angle. If they sense conflict, the celeb can be portrayed as a total bitch, and the celeb has no say in it (like what they did to Nadia Comenci). So they can sell it, but I'm not required to buy it, and in this case, I don't. Your mileage may vary.

In other words, then, you never liked the show before this season because it's never been about "excellence in dancing" (there are other shows for that), it's been about taking mostly non-dancers and watching them learn and grow over the season. That's why most of the audience tunes in to watch. A season where the winner is a foregone conclusion from the get-go? Not so much.

Everyone keeps saying Charli is shy, but I have never met an actual shy person who puts themselves in the spotlight constantly. I just don't buy it. Nor am I really buying either her or Mark's protestations of not finding joy in dancing any longer. If that were true, it seems the last thing you would want to do is have to force yourself not only to dance but to dance how someone else wants you to (the show assigning dances) and then have them judge you for it. Unless, maybe, you're just really an attention ***** and don't care how you get it. I think that was a narrative dictated by the show (and yes, they can do that; it's in the contract) and not terribly convincingly acted by either of them.

What a surprise! The winner is exactly who we said would win from Week One. The show could not have pushed her any harder unless she'd been the only contestant. I was hoping against hope right up til the end that we'd have a surprise upset, but nope. Yawn! Didn't even get an amazing Mark freestyle out of it, which might have made it somewhat worthwhile. My husband didn't even realize that was their freestyle. And I am so way past over the ridiculous gushing over her. Wayne and Witney were great. He really improved his Quickstep over his last outing, which was good to see. The freestyle was a lot of fun and really enjoyed it. Gabby and Val did their usual good job. Could see improvement in her cha cha, and I liked their freestyle even with the little glitch at the end. Charli's "redemption" dance was one where she scored a 38 first time around - that's 2 10s and 2 9s - and it was the highest scored jive of the season. Yeah, she really needed to "redeem" herself on that one. <lol> Not sure why they didn't go for her cha cha or Quickstep, since those were her lowest scoring dances. So dumb. And even with all that, she still is not a great performer, but the judges act like she's some prodigy. I had really been looking forward to seeing one of Mark's uber-creative freestyles, which would have made up somewhat for the show's pushing of Charli on us all, and instead we got a retrospective of their greatest hits of the season. Well danced of course but completely forgettable. Shangela and Gleb are the season's biggest revelations for me. Shangela did much better with her Quickstep this time around, and that freestyle really brought down the house. Just pure joy, light and energy. Absolutely loved it! And huge props to Gleb for going all in and becoming a drag queen. He's a good-looking man but who knew he'd be such a beautiful woman? That was so different and so fun it was worth having to put up with the inevitable coronation of the TikTok princess. Some real fun moments tonight, but overall this has been the second most disappointing season after Bobby Bones. They orchestrated that right up to the faux showdown between Charli and Gabby they've been pushing all season with the inevitable winner that we all saw coming the entire season despite their ludicrous attempts to pretend her win wasn't inevitable. I just hope they've gotten it all out of their system now, and we can have an actual fair-ish competition next season.

From what I've read, she's trained in contemporary, jazz, and ballet. He had not been bottom 2 before.

Nope. Not even close. Most of the so-called ringers have been figure skaters, gymnasts, cheerleaders or boy banders. And none of them picked up the choreography as easily as Charli has and so had the luxury of spending hours and hours perfecting technique. Or were able to incorporate the kinds of advanced steps that Mark has used with Charli. She is in a class by herself. No question she's a great dancer as far as technique goes. That's exactly the problem. She was a great dancer before coming on the show and was simply too far ahead of the others for it to really be considered at all a "fair" competition. That's been the issue. There are "ringers" and then there's a professional dancer with the show truly desperately to make us believe she isn't picking this up as easily as she clearly is. Her rehearsal packages show it. If she doesn't win, it will be strictly because the audience knew the show was trying to coronate her as queen and said no thanks! If Charli wanted to be on a dance show, she should have tried out for So You Think You Can Dance. That would have been a great fit for her, and I might well have been rooting for her there. But not here. On this show I watch to see them learning and growing.

Three have won (so far). Twelve have competed (Gabby is the 12th). That's why I say Bachelor Nation doesn't often bring home a win for their faves. Gabby may make #4, and I'd be okay with that.

Because, as the saying goes, it's ain't over til it's over. The only thing the show can't control (at least not without getting into a lot of trouble with the FCC) is the votes. We know the show wants to see a Charli/Gabby "showdown," but we don't know how many votes either are actually getting. Wayne could be killing it in the vote counts. If they hold true to past years, everyone will get a 10 for their freestyle unless it just really sucks. And they typically also do one new dance and one "redemption" dance. I think it's safe to predict however many dances they do, Charli will get all 10s for every dance. Gabby will probably get the same or pretty close. Wayne and Shangela they will be less generous with because that's been their trend. If people don't watch and vote, the result will be what the show wants. If people do vote, surprising things happen - like Iman wins over ringer JoJo and Amber Riley wins overs ringer Corbin Bleu. Bobby Bones was a fluke, but he was actively encouraging his fans to vote for him, and I suspect a fair portion of his fan base are jerks like he was, so they probably thought it was funny. We know Bachelor Nation votes but they aren't often able to eke out a win. So the question is how big is the voting base of Wayne and Charli? And how much will Lady Gaga's endorsement of Shangela help her? So we watch and we vote and we hope to see the show's favorites fall short. Sometimes we win; sometimes we lose. Charli winning would be as big a disappointment to me as Bobby Bones was but for different reasons. And a big part of the reason I don't want her to win is then maybe the show would rethink who they're bringing in as contestants and not set up a competition to be so uneven. One can hope anyway!

We'll have to agree to disagree on Heather. She didn't make it to the actual competition rounds, so I don't consider her a contestant on the show. And you prove our point about Charli when you say she was focused on learning the technique and perfecting the technique. That's because she was already a highly trained dancer and so had the luxury of being able to focus on technique rather than needing all of her time to just learn the basic dance. She could pick up the steps easily and learn the choreography quickly and then could spend the bulk of her time *perfecting* instead of learning. Something none of the other contestants could do. She had the high score every single week on the show. Every.single.week. This isn't a competition; it's an attempted coronation. She was hand-picked to be a contestant, hand-picked to entice Mark to come back for a season, hand-picked to win. But the show can't control the voters and often those ringers don't win. I hope that, as they did last year, the voters will reject the highly trained dancer and reward the one who took them on a journey, made them see the joy they had, and gave them a reason to root for them.

Karina wanted to learn from Corbin? <lol> Corbin started as a tap dancer and did some Broadway and High School Musical. Karina wanted him as a partner, but there was nothing he was going to teach her about ballroom. And yes, he did get a lot of flak for having dance experience. And no, Heather Morris was not a contestant on SYTYCD. She tried out, but did not make it on to the show as a contestant. She also got a lot of flak her season as well. Neither one of them individually can match Charli's experience, let alone double it. It may seem that they didn't get as much scrutiny, and that's probably because they were nowhere near as polished as Charli right from the get go. They both had learning curves that the Golden Child has not had to deal with. She started out great, has continued to be great, and she should have gone on SYTYCD if she wanted to compete. But it's easier to win on DWTS so here we are. I will give you credit for one thing, though. Having revised your original opinion of Charli on the show, you are all in for her now. Is the show paying you to be an apologist for her? Because that is one of the most amazing and dramatic about-faces I've seen.

Yeah, could you imagine Mary, Carrie Anne and Bruno all on the same panel? No, thank you! At least Mary can talk sitting down, which Bruno appears absolutely incapable of doing. I don't know what was up with CA last night, but she was so unprofessional. It was weird with Shangela, but going over to hug Charli was just bizarre. Maybe not quite drunk, but it wouldn't surprise me if she'd had a couple before the show. She was really off the rails last night. Meryl was somewhat familiar with many of the different styles as they have been adapted for ice dancing. Although obviously a waltz performed on the ice is not the same as a waltz performed on a dance floor. But ice dancing is based on ballroom dancing, so they do learn some of the elements. She had an advantage because she was already used to learning and performing choreography, she already knew how to spin and turn and use her arms gracefully, and mostly she knew how to bring a performance. That's true for most contestants deemed ringers, but it's nothing compared to the kind of dance experience Charli has. Kristi Yamaguchi was another ice skater who did very well and was able to pick up ballroom fairly easily. As a figure skater, though, she was even less of an actual ringer than Meryl. I agree about Shangela making Gleb likeable. That's quite a feat as I usually find him kind of douche-y. But he seems like a different person this season and appears to be really enjoying his partnership with Shangela. I would love to see them go all the way. And I've said that about Charli from the start, but I think you said it better maybe. You're right - there isn't really any joy in her dancing. It's for the most part emotionless. Like she's hyperfocused on doing everything perfectly and forgetting that it's supposed to be fun. Because she doesn't look like she's enjoying herself, the audience doesn't either. At least some portion of it anyway. I also agree about enjoying the older dancers on SYTYCD more and for the same reason. Like Charli, they put on faces that they think convey the emotion but they don't really know what it's like. Maks or Cheryl would be great choices to take over for Len. Cheryl made a cryptic comment about this possibly being her last season on DWTS "as a dancer," so maybe they've talked to her about it?

I think a large part of the audience has been prepared for Charli to win since Day One. Late night edge-of-sleep musings: what if they are preparing viewers to bring her back as a pro next season? I think it's a reasonable assumption that Witney will sit out next season as her baby will still be quite young. Can you imagine the over-the-top hype the show could indulge in by bringing Charli back as a pro? "The greatest celebrity dancer ever in the history of the show is now a PRO!" Blah blah blah. She'd have nearly a year to take some classes and learn enough to be able to choreograph. I'm sure she could get help from Derek in preparing her for that. I hope not, but I can't rule it out at this point either. Jordin Sparks needs to take that up with the judges. He had been in the bottom two twice, and the judges saved him both times. Then the judges saved Heidi over Jordin. The only one whose fan base kept them in well past their expiration date was Vinny's. He didn't make bottom two until last week, and the judges used that opportunity to get rid of him. You can spin it any way you want, but the show has never had a contestant who had anywhere near the amount of experience Charli has had. Not even JoJo last season. Charli isn't just a "competition dancer." She trained at an elite dance academy, started dancing when she was three, and started competing when she was five. She competed for over 10 years to great acclaim and wins at high level competitions. One judge said of Charli that of all the dancers in the world, she had the most chance of becoming a professional. I don't know why you feel the need to downplay her dance training and experience. Charli came into this competition already knowing how to use her arms, her feet, her legs, how to turn and how to learn choreography quickly. What you call growth is actually refinement. While the others struggled to learn the basics, Charli was getting coached on the finer techniques of ballroom, things the others didn't have time for once they'd gotten the basics of their dance down. You may be right about her being technically the best dancer this show has had, but that is also not surprising because she came in at such a high level to begin with. I am with those who think Meryl was the best dancer this show has seen. She didn't have quite the technical expertise of Charli (but neither does she have the kind of dance background that Charli has) but she outshines Charli in the performance aspect of it. Which is not surprising given her background as an ice dancer where performance quality is important. I agree with that. Meryl was sublime, and I think Maks is the best male dancer ever on the show. They were magic together. Oh God no. Please no. I don't even want to contemplate Mary and Carrie Anne on the same panel. Just no. Nigel's not bad, although at times he can be kind of pervy, but he's not a ballroom guy; he's a tap dancer. Len brought gravitas because he was a professional ballroom dancer himself as well as a coach and a judge.

Speaking for myself, I'll be voting for Shangela. Probably Wayne. Maybe Gabby. Not Charli. It seems like they've had the 4-judge panel for several seasons now, so I'm wondering if we'll see Max or one of the other pros come back as a fourth judge. Also wondering who will end up being the head judge. It would seem based on seniority that it should be either Carrie Anne or Bruno, but based on dance cred, it should be Derek. Unless they bring in someone from the ballroom dance world specifically to take over that spot.

Well, I predicated last week that Trevor and Daniel would go. No big surprise there, but I am sorry to see them go. I think this is the first time we've had all "ringers" (of varying degrees) in the final. I'm rooting for Shangela to take it all. Her dance experience is mostly the bump-and-grind type, and she's just such a joy! So much fun to watch, and she goes out there week after week and gives it her all. Plus, she's made me like Gleb, and that alone makes me want to see her win. <lol> Wayne - I thought his paso was good but not great and was fairly scored. His waltz was beautiful, though, and I think he should have gotten at least one more 10. It seemed like the judges were looking for reasons to not give him a 10. Daniel - I thought both of his dances were very nice and scored fairly. He really has improved over the course of the show and works so hard. Plus he has a great attitude. Shangela - This has been a great partnership. I have actively disliked Gleb most seasons, but he's like a completely different person (in a good way) with Shangela. I think his choreography has been better with her, too. I thought her paso was great, and her waltz was gorgeous. Again, it felt like they were looking for reasons to underscore her. Charli - I will give credit where due - her waltz was the first dance of hers that I have really loved. Not only was it danced beautifully, it felt like there was genuine emotion behind it. Her paso was less successful for me, as again I felt like she was back to making faces rather than actually emoting. Can't fault her actual dancing, but I am way past over with the judges' absurd praise. They know her background, and this is exactly what people expected would happen and why so many believe she should not have been cast as a contestant. It seems clear from her packages that she picks up the steps very quickly and that most of her practice time is spent in perfecting technique. She already had the feet, legs, and arms down pat from her extensive dance training. And the spins that she did tonight were straight out of her competitions. So, of course, she looks like a professional after 9 weeks of training every day. Yet the judges act so shocked! What would be shocking was if she didn't look like a professional by now. So ugh. I said before the show started that I expected her to win, and I still feel that way. I would love to be wrong, though. Trevor - He was the one I was most excited to see since I'm a big fan of his from Hallmark movies. He worked hard and got better and went from nothing to doing a very creditable job. He and Emma made for a great partnership, and I hope he's really proud of what he has accomplished. Would have loved to have seen him and Daniel both make it to the finals, as they are the kind of contestants I tune in to watch. So, well done, Trevor! Gabby - I enjoyed both of her dances and was not at all surprised she got perfect scores just like Charli. The show seems to consider them the two best dancers and are trying to build a rivalry between them. I thought it was "interesting" that she and Charli were the only ones who got traditional paso music, which adds to the performance aspect. Definite favoritism on the part of the showrunners for those two. So next week I expect Mark's freestyle will be one for the books. Since Charli is at a professional level, he can pull out all the stops. It should be great to watch, but I don't want her to win. Val has been hit-or-miss with his freestyles, but he's got a capable partner, so hopefully it will be a hit this time. No idea what kind of a freestyle Gleb will do. I don't think he's ever made it to the finals before. If he's smart and plays to Shangela's strengths and showmanship, it could be really fun to watch. We know Witney can choreograph a good freestyle as well, but I expect it will lean towards a hip hop style that suits Wayne. Right now, I am rooting for Shangela to win. I just love everything about her. Congratulations to Witney on her pregnancy, and farewell to Len! Enjoy your retirement! I don't think that's fair to say. He was in the bottom two twice before tonight, and the judges saved him both times, so it wasn't his fans keeping him around. And I disagree he was around "long past his expiry." He came in with zero dance experience, worked hard, steadily improved, didn't complain, and had a great partnership with Emma. I can't think of anyone who was really better than he was who went home before him.

That is the way they did it for years. As they got into the later weeks, there might be 3 different styles. And NO contemporary or jazz, which are my two least favorite styles on the show. I get enough of that from SYTYCD. Instead, we'd get things like the Charleston, Lindy Hop, swing, jitterbug, mambo, etc. Or there would be the fusion dances where they'd have to combine two different dance styles. The trio dances were fun, too. I miss those. It was Trevor and Daniel who left, something I think everyone knew was going to happen after last week. Trevor was the bottom one who went out first. The judges then unanimously voted to keep Shangela over Daniel. No big surprise Charli, Gabby, and Wayne all got through. They've been at the top or near the top in the judge's scoring every week.

Derek wasn't Zendaya's pro. Val was. Just for the record.

I could be wrong, but my feeling is more that it's the absolute ringeryness of this ringer. It's one thing to have been a cheerleader or a back-up dancer whose choreography is limited in scope generally. It's quite another to have studied at an elite dance studio almost your entire life and competed very successfully for more than a decade. I think for many that's just a bridge too far. She is for all intents and purposes a professional dancer. She gets paid to dance, including have danced with Derek on one of his tv specials. JoJo was too well trained for many, and Charli takes that even further. There are ringers and then there are RINGERS! Some of her champions here have made that point themselves by talking about how difficult the choreography is she's being given and how she's doing things no other contestant could ever have done. Well, yeah. She's a professional dancer. This should not surprise anyone. As for the look, you could be right. I haven't gone back and re-watched it. I just remember thinking at the time that if looks could kill, Len would be dead. Then Mark claiming it was his mistake kind of reinforced my belief she was angry.

One of my adult children subscribes to Disney+ so when Hamilton was streaming, they gave us their login information so we could see it and told us to use it whenever we wanted. In exchange we gave them our login information to Paramount. I might have subscribed to Disney for a few months to watch DWTS, but then I would probably cancel and subscribe again the next season. There's not enough other stuff I'd want to watch on Disney to make it worth having it all year round. But I do like not having commercials!!

Almost every young person these days has a cell phone, and they don't need parental permission to text their votes, which is the way I would expect them to vote. I think you underestimate how fanatic the younger people can be about things. I would bet she sends out a tweet or makes an instagram post every Monday night reminding people to vote and telling them how to do it. They don't even need to watch the show. Just remember to text her name 10 times between 8 and 10 pm. In any event, you could well turn out to be right, and I would not be at all unhappy about that. Charli is the best dancer this season - the best dancer of any season - in terms of technical ability. But the level of training and experience she has had (also with JoJo last season - although I found her much more personable and fun to watch than Charli, I wasn't voting for her because I just couldn't get behind her as a contestant given how much training she had had and Charli has upped the ante by quite a bit) makes her a big nope for me as a contestant. Cheerleaders and Disney kids who have all had at least some dance training as part of their skill set and ice skaters, gymnasts, boy band members . . . that's fine with me. They have a bit of an advantage, but it's not really that big of one. And a cast full of Master Ps, Tucker Carlsons, and Kenny Maynes would be truly painful to watch. <lol> But Charli has been dancing almost her entire life, is highly trained in multiple genres, and was very successful as a competitor in amateur competitions. I watch So You Think You Can Dance for that. I watch DWTS to see people learn to dance, to grow, to improve, to get better. There's none of that with Charli. She started out on the top rung of the ladder, and she's still there. There are enough pros on the show; they don't need to bring one in to compete. I'm hoping this is just a one-off to entice Mark to come back for a season and that the show runners back off in future seasons from casting contestants as highly trained as her and JoJo. I'm guessing they were hoping to expand their audience, but it doesn't seem to be working, so as an experiment, it needs to end.

I don't understand why you think she's not getting the votes. She's got 147 million followers on TikTok plus the ones who watch her reality tv show and follow her on Instagram. Since you don't have to actually watch the show to vote, and she's asking her fans to vote, I would bet a substantial number of them are indeed voting for her. During the elimination phase they call out the names in random order, so Charli having been the last or near last called safe doesn't mean anything at all. It's manufactured drama to get people wondering if there'll be a "shock" elimination. If she doesn't win, I think it will be because, like last season, when push came to shove, the voters rewarded the novice who grew tremendously during the course of the show and entertained them hugely while being nowhere near technically perfect over the trained dancer. So Iman won instead of JoJo. So it's not out of the realm of possibility that that could happen again this season, although it couldn't get any closer to the edge without going out. But if even a small portion of her fanbase is voting, she should be unstoppable. Bobby Bones was awful but had a huge fan base that gave him the win. His fan base is tiny compared to the juggernaut that is Charli's fan base. Bobby Bones has 1.2 million followers on Instagram. Charli has 49 million followers on Instagram. Bobby has less than 1 million followers on TikTok while Charli has 147 million. It's not over til it's over, and we've seen some pretty bizarre things happen on the show, but I honestly believe - and have since the day they announced the cast - that everyone else is dancing for second place. I'll be very surprised if she does. Shangela is who the audience has fallen in love with and is rooting for.

That's my take on it. Not the first time a pro has done that. White Dog may well be right, but it isn't at all obvious to me when I watch the video the way WD says it is, and I tend to believe that Len knows what he's talking about. He was right there in the ballroom just a few feet away. In the end, though, it doesn't really matter.

Actually, no, I can't see it on the playback. So I still think it's far more likely that Charli messed up than that Mark messed up.