Avaleigh

From the S05.E05 Thread: I disagree. As early as the first season there are examples of Cora praising Edith. When Strallan is over for dinner in the first season it is Edith that Cora praises for "saving the day" and it was Edith she thanked for looking after Strallan even though he'd basically been brought there for Mary. Cora was proud of Edith when she was praised by the general, she has been supportive of Edith's writing career, she was nice and welcoming to both of Edith's suitors, and she has comforted Edith in moments where Edith has needed her like when she was jilted. I think this was because Edith was not a successful debutante so that's why Cora didn't especially praise her about that in particular. It isn't as though she hasn't complimented her in other ways. The sisters are all pretty and talented in different ways so I don't know why Edith thinks it's wrong for them to be praised in different areas. Edith also seemed to see favoritism where there wasn't any. She'd accuse Cora of playing favorites by wondering about something like why Sybil was allowed to have a dress made and Cora responded simply that it was Sybil's turn, an indication that she would make an effort in general to be fair with the girls. One of several reasons I disagree with the idea that Edith was only mean to Mary because Mary was mean to her is that Edith would also have unnecessary attitude with Sybil who was unfailingly nice to her. Edith seemed like she was apt to be jealous whether she had legitimate reasons to be or not. I disagree with this too. I don't think he would have obsessed over it at all. When he thought Mary was going to be tainted by scandal his attitude was that it would be better for her to be sent away. He wasn't obsessing over how to make Carlisle change his mind or trying to think of another way to make it so that his darling Mary could stay. He basically felt like there was nothing to be done and that she'd need to be moved out of the way so that she wouldn't bring the rest of the family down with her. I also disagree that it was Robert's fault that Edith was jilted. That was Anthony's call to hurt and humiliate Edith in that way. Anthony was treated kindly by members of the family so it wasn't like he was facing a lifetime of icy receptions. Tom faced a lot more opposition than Anthony did and it still didn't keep him from marrying Sybil. I don't think that Robert or Violet should be blamed for Anthony's bad behavior. The big thing to notice with the rivalry between Edith and Mary during the first two seasons is that Edith was the instigator on nearly every occasion. I can hardly think of any exceptions. Edith would prick and prick at Mary until Mary would finally have enough and deliver a sharp comment or action of her own. Their rivalry has continued throughout every season and I definitely disagree with the idea that Edith stopped being mean or giving as good as she gets since the first or second season. There are examples of Edith needling Mary in every single season. In the third season we had an Edith who couldn't even bring herself to be gracious on the day of her sister's wedding. Mary OTOH was willing to put aside their petty rivalry and genuinely wish Edith well on the day of Edith's aborted wedding to Strallan. In the fourth season we had Edith needling Mary about Gillingham and naturally this season Edith is the only character who tries to put Mary on blast about her "sketching" holiday because for whatever reason Edith has always taken an obvious interest in Mary's love life. I'm really just scratching the surface here but the reason I found it difficult to warm to Edith during the first couple of seasons was because it seemed like she was usually the person who was starting these petty arguments and seemed jealous of both sisters. I still remember how happy Edith was when she saw Mary's look of pain upon hearing about Matthew's engagement to Lavinia. Mary at least was sympathetic when Edith was jilted by Strallan. Edith has brought a lot of her unhappiness on herself and I feel like there is a tendency to blame other characters for Edith's problems. In the first season Edith did something to ensure that her elder sister's reputation would be permanently tarnished. Her sister retaliated but not in such a way that damaged all of Edith's prospects as Edith tried to do to Mary. They weren't at all even after Mary sabotaged the relationship with Strallan. That being said, that's the first season, moving on. The point for bringing it up is to show that Edith started a situation between herself and Mary by inserting herself into the Pamuk drama and trying to ruin her sister's reputation. In the second season we had Edith making snide comments about a newspaper man she'd never met but she knew her sister was interested in--I've said it before and I'll say it again--Mary and Edith are actually a lot alike. Also in the second season I would say that Edith brings about her own unhappiness by choosing to get involved with a married farmer. Then suddenly she's crying the blues because the farmer's wife doesn't want her to come over there anymore. And this is after the farmer's wife was kind enough to give Edith food and work clothes and all around welcome her into her home. In the third season I feel that Edith's actions were the main factor in Anthony breaking off the engagement as opposed to it being about Robert who was IMO at worst lukewarm about the upcoming marriage. As if he's the first father to ever be in the position where he isn't wild about his daughter's choice of husband. If Anthony had loved Edith enough he would have been content with the fact that the two people who were opposed to the union were still polite and decent to him and likely would have warmed to him over time. (Look at how far the Isobel/Violet relationship has come. Tom and Robert.) I certainly don't feel that I've been given the impression that Edith blames her family for what Anthony did to her. As for her relationship with Gregson, I feel like she didn't really think things through when she decided to go forward with consummating their relationship. She's shown herself to be a fairly conventional woman who wants to get married and obviously Gregson wasn't available. Edith valued Matthew's opinion and even Matthew didn't think it would be a good idea for Edith to get involved with a man if there wasn't any hope of marriage around the corner. It also doesn't seem like Edith took any precautions as Mary did and again, that seems to have been a choice that Edith made for herself. It isn't her family's fault that she's in this position where she ended up having a child out of wedlock. Edith has been in control of her life. Edith made the decision to have a relationship with Gregson; she made the decision to have the child in secret; she made the decision to give the child up to one family; she made the decision to take the child back and have it fostered with another family; she made the decision to say that she was okay with keeping her identity a secret from Mrs Drewe; she ended up not deciding upon a fixed schedule for visiting Marigold; she noticed that Mrs Drewe felt that she was pushing in too much and didn't do a single thing to alter her behavior or try to make Mrs Drewe more comfortable or understanding; she has made the decision to continue to keep Mrs Drewe in the dark about the fact that she's Marigold's mother. Things like this make me feel like Edith is in control of her own life she just hasn't necessarily always made the best choices.

I wasn't saying that it's okay for Mary to say mean things to Edith because Edith once called Mary a slut 12 years ago. Since we were discussing how Edith might think other members in her family would react to the news of Marigold, I was talking about how I think that Mary would ultimately be supportive and helpful in whatever way she could. I also mentioned that I thought Edith might remember how she called Mary a slut after she found out about Mary having sex with Pamuk. I brought this up because I thought it was something that Edith might have in the back of her head. At no point did I suggest that it's somehow okay for Mary to say mean things to Edith because Edith called her that name all those years ago. The rest of the post I'm responding to in Edith and Mary's thread. http://forums.previously.tv/topic/13491-mary-and-edith-edith-and-mary/page-2

I honestly think what ultimately pushed Strallan to break off the engagement had to do with Edith's declaration that he would be her life's project. He looked very uncomfortable and letdown when she put it that way and I think he thought she'd be wasting her life if that was the main thing she was concerned about when she imagined them being happy together. I disagree. Robert was actually a lot more welcoming to Strallan than he was with Tom and Tom managed to not run away and humiliate Sybil as Strallan did with Edith. I don't give Strallan a pass for humiliating Edith like that just because Robert and Violet weren't jumping up and down with excitement over the union. Other family members like Cora, Matthew, and Isobel were perfectly friendly to him and with Edith's support that should have been enough for the time being. I disagree that it's the fault of Robert or Violet or that they should take the blame for Strallan choosing to end things with Edith in the most hurtful and humiliating way possible. Edith hasn't given her parents any sort of chance. I think it's completely unfair of her to not confide in Cora at this point as I don't think Cora has done anything to deserve being so shut out and lied to. Cora has been loving and encouraging of Edith and there are examples from every season yet somehow Cora is regularly lumped in when it comes to the IMO mistaken impression that she's been a neglectful parent or that she hasn't been supportive of Edith in general. Whether she was thanking Edith for being helpful with guests, praising her on her column and saying she never misses reading it, comforting her after being jilted, making sure to be friendly to Gregson, etc. When Edith considers that Cora helped Mary out of her jam years ago I would think that she would at least consider that her mother would be inclined to help her as well. Cora makes one truthful comment (truthful IMO anyway) about Edith having fewer advantages than Mary during a conversation where she thinks she is alone with Mary and from then on Cora is somehow seen as a bad mother who doesn't try to find a husband for Edith even though we know the only reason she tried to find a husband for Mary was specifically because of the Pamuk scandal. IMO favoritism didn't play into the decision of Cora making that small effort to find Mary a husband. Seriously, she invited one guy over for dinner for Mary but was perfectly happy when it seemed like he'd be a better fit for Edith instead. Otherwise Mary and Sybil both found their own men and I think the Granthams expected that Edith would do the same only she didn't have a court of admirers from her debutante days as her sisters did. Edith still had the same opportunities as her sisters when it came to being around and meeting eligible men only nothing materialized. That can happen, I don't think it's a sign of Edith having been neglected by her parents because she happens to be unmarried. In this episode I felt so sorry for Cora to be on the outside of the Rosamund/Edith/Violet trio. She has no idea what's going on and when/if she does find out I can't help but suspect that she'll feel terribly hurt to have not been trusted with Edith's secret. I'm sure all she would want to do is be helpful and supportive but she's being denied the chance for whatever reason. With Mary I'm sure that part of the problem for Edith would be remembering that she'd once called Mary a slut for having sex outside of marriage and now Edith might be wondering if Mary would throw a similar blow at her if she were to ever find out about Marigold. I don't think Mary would try to hurt Edith or say anything nasty to be honest. I really do think that she'd try to be helpful and would especially be concerned about Marigold's well being. As Tom said, Mary is a lot nicer than people want to give her credit for and I think this is a situation where she'd try to be supportive if given the chance. I'm not saying that she and Edith would be all hugs while they take a house by the sea together ( Mabel Lane Fox) but I do think that Mary would do the right thing and try to help in whatever way she can. I think it's like what a couple of other posters were saying. I think a huge part of the problem is that Edith still wants to be able to have her cake and eat it too. She doesn't want to be cast out of society and she doesn't want to be that woman that people whisper about and feel sorry for. At the end of the day she's going to have to decide which things are ultimately the most important to her. The bottom line to me is that Edith didn't seem like she'd taken any precautions. She knew that Gregson was married and had no idea if he'd be able to obtain a divorce or not. She didn't know what the deal was with the wife and just sort of took his word for it. Violet committed adultery but she was married and had the protection of her husband if she'd ended up getting pregnant. Mary made sure to get a diaphragm. Cora got "caught" in a way but it was obvious that they hadn't got up to anything (they're both fully clothed without a hair out of place, the bed is made, and Carson said that she'd only just gone up to bed so they had no time) and it was even more obvious that she hadn't invited him. Upthread someone mentioned that female characters haven't been able to have premarital sex without suffering huge consequences. This is mostly true but Rose is a notable exception to this rule since she got to have two affairs without having anything major happen.

Not really. The aliens weren't delved into at all and there was no explanation for anything that Kit, Alma, and Grace went through at the hands of the aliens or what the deal was with the pregnancies and why the aliens wanted to make sure that the kids survived. Also, did Alma snap just because or was it to do with the aliens? Why did they take Kit at the end and not Grace or Alma?

That's terrible. It takes me back to all of the ridiculous hate that Dan Stevens and Julian Fellowes have received.

I was a fan of Sybil and I definitely didn't feel like JF was giving me the middle finger during her death scene. For me, the episode with Sybil's death was one of the strongest episodes in the entire series. With the exception of Dan Stevens I thought everybody brought their A-game that day and was touched by so many scenes. Elizabeth McGovern was excellent and seeing the moment where she's alone with Sybil and telling her that she won't need to worry about Tom or the baby--I thought it was so moving and well done. I loved the honest conversation Sybil had with Mary and I liked that Sybil seemed like she and Tom were going to find their place within the family again. I also enjoyed the scene between Edith and Mary even though people like to use it as an example of Mary being mean to Edith, I thought it was a sweet scene and liked that the girls had a moment alone together to honor their sister. AL was especially good during the actual moment of death and I think it's still probably his strongest scene to date. I loathe the character of Thomas but even he had a nice scene during this episode. I didn't think that any of the above scenes were wasted or pointless and since AL wanted to continue to be apart of the show I understand why Sybil had to go. I don't think that JF was deliberately trying to be mean about "robbing" Tom and Sybil fans of their happy ending. I personally was disappointed when I thought they were going to be written out permanently as living in Ireland or America so I'm glad the show ended up not going that route. Sometimes popular characters die. I don't think it's necessarily something personal against the fans from the showrunner/s. As for Mary and Matthew, I was definitely a fan of this couple but I wasn't traumatized by Matthew's death or anything like that. I was shocked that people were angry with DS and/or JF and had no idea that there was some unwritten rule in television about not having sad endings occur during a holiday weekend. (When I think of how many sad movies are released on Christmas Day, I honestly still don't get it.) There were articles where people were flat out accusing JF and the show of ruining their holiday and it was something that I had trouble understanding. I don't feel that Matthew's death takes at all away from the wonderful past scenes with Matthew and Mary and their romance. The old episodes haven't been ruined for me. I'm grateful to have had those three seasons and understand that onscreen chemistry like that isn't always easy to find, so I'm thankful for what we got. Seriously, Thomas is just the worst. He wants to tell himself that people don't like him because he's "different" and it's like no, dude, no. People don't like you because you act like an asshole on a regular basis and have been since day one. Crying over Sybil's death and being nice to a guy that he was super attracted to doesn't erase all of the years of douchebaggery that he inflicted on that household. Maybe when he drops the attitude and becomes a friendlier person people could actually be given the chance to warm to him. He brings many of his problems on himself and I have little patience for it. The other problem of course is that Bates went through a similar story in the first or second season when he kept wearing that awful brace on his leg. The story with Thomas almost feels like the same thing all over again with characters commenting on how he doesn't look well and Thomas acting like everything is fine just as Bates did. Baxter is in the role of O'Brien and Violet comments about Thomas's appearance as Robert once commented on Bates's . Honestly, there should be a thread about for all of the recycled storylines from this show from over the seasons.

I agree that Dany will likely step in to save Jorah from Drogon I'm just not sure that I agree with the part where she'd allow him to fight at her side and once again be one of her protectors. I don't think that Jorah ending up in an unfortunate situation like that will make her think that he's any more trustworthy than she feels he is since she found out about his betrayal. To me Dany is going to see it as he saved my life before I can't just let him die. Upon saving his life though I feel like she'd basically feel like they were even. That being said, if Barristan isn't in the pit scenes then maybe Jorah will get the moment that Barristan has where he tries to keep Drogon from going for Dany by waving his arms and calling to Drogon to go for him instead. If Dany sees him lie down his life like that in order to save her I can see her finding it in her heart to forgive him eventually.

Prior to seeing the relationship between Young Nucky and Young Gillian, I'd considered the possibility but I agree with hincandenza that Nucky wasn't Jimmy's father. I was thinking about how Gillian's hair is short in both the current scenes and the flashbacks. I remember thinking it was odd that Gilian didn't have long hair like most young girls would have had and then I remembered that she'd just come from the orphanage. It made me think of Jane Eyre. Gillian was talking about how the people in charge were always talking about sin and the implication is that she's an out of wedlock child who probably never knew either of her parents. Maybe they forced all of the girls to keep their hair short but I also wonder if it wasn't a punishment? Now of course she's back again to living in a place where she's forced to keep her hair short and it's one more thing that reminds her of life in the orphanage. In her mind I think having that long hair really was a luxury back when she had it. Remember when Jimmy tells Pearl that his mother had him wear his hair long hair when he was a boy because she thought it made him "look aristocratic"?

That RM wimped out on Kit's story in Asylum makes me think that he doesn't necessarily know what he would do with an extra terrestrial, space related story. I do agree though that his denials might very well be bullshit. He says that it's not going to be space related because it's an "American" horror story but obviously there are plenty of American stories that he could incorporate into a story where space is one of the main themes. He's making it seem like people were speculating that it would take place in space and I don't think that's what most people were thinking.

Yep, pretty much. I'm excited anyway. A little worried but excited. ;-) I do find it odd that Tyrion would just happen to be one of Hizdahr's personal slaves but whatever. He's right there in the royal section and he barely knows this guy? And is obviously untrained as a slave? Obviously I have to give the show the benefit of the doubt but for any normal person in Hizdahr's position I can't see why he'd automatically trust Tyrion to bring him wine or whatever it is that he has Tyrion doing that requires him to be close. I can see Dany taking an interest in Tyrion upon learning that he's from Westeros but I wonder what the story will be behind Tyrion going to Hizdahr. Maybe it's to put Tyrion in a position where he saves Dany from eating something poisonous? I go back and forth on Lady Stoneheart. I sort of dislike the character because it's basically the worst version of a character that I was already on the fence about so I'm fine with the show not including her if that's what ends up happening. It's great that she's killing certain Freys but there's no evidence that they're all bad and I feel like having the name would be enough to condemn a person in her eyes. I didn't like the way that she was going to kill Pod, I think she's just destructive in general and there's already going to be enough of that with the threat of the Others. At the same time I so much like the idea of Littlefinger coming into contact with her one day that suffering through her other appearances might well be worth it if this ends up being her ultimate purpose. I also like the idea of Arya seeing Lady Stoneheart and having Arya finally maybe snapping out of her killkillkill mode. That would make LS worth it too. I would love it if she were able to be the one to remind Arya that she still has it in her to love and be human. Just to be clear I don't mean that LS would personally say something to encourage Arya to not let the hatred consume her, I just mean that Arya would see what Lady Stoneheart is all about and realize herself that she doesn't want to become what LS is. Is the North really that underrepresented on the show? I feel like the fact that they made the penultimate episode of last season about the Wall show that they care. The finale was pretty North focused too what with the stuff with Mance, Jon, Stannis, and Melisandre. Bran had a nice chunk of the finale too. I like that we get a lot of Roose Bolton. I find that they focus too much on Theon and Ramsay but am looking forward to all of the Ghost of Winterfell stuff assuming they keep that. I also like what they did with the Others last season. The Night's King stuff provided a lot of interesting discussion and I saw a few decent theories that I hadn't come across before. Which loyal bannermen should we have seen do you think? It isn't too late to introduce the Manderlys and I'm assuming we're going to get the Karstarks next season. The show can't help the Edmure actor being unavailable so I understand why there hasn't been follow up with him yet regarding his fate or whether or not his kid is a boy or a girl. Plus, it kind of gives the feeling of the North being overrun with doucheabgs at the moment now that Robb and so many of his men are gone. This is the Bolton Reign of Terror and I'm hoping that it's going to feel awesome on the show when Jon decides that he's going to make shit right in the North by getting rid of that asshole Ramsay once and for all. Plus they would have needed to cut things and apart from Septgate and the beetle speech I was happy with most of what was done last season. I've said it a thousand times--they need more episodes per season. Is it looking like Dany and Drogon's flight will take place in episode 9? I'm hoping the WoS is in episode 8 so that there's something of a WoW preview for Cersei. I can't decide what scene I'd like it to end on but I think I'd like it to be a break from it being some triumph of Dany's so maybe it could end with Jon being stabbed so that the audience can have a bit of a wait like we all had. Either that or maybe a scene of something Other related.

It took me back to the scene of her in the season 3 finale after Gyp injected her with the heroin. Nucky comes up to her and she's mentally taken back to the first time she was brought to the Commodore's house. She tells Nucky that she did what she was told and says something like "I was good. I was good but he did something very bad to me." She absolutely was eager to please and seemed like she would have done almost anything to live with Nucky and Mabel. Word too, to whoever pointed out that Leander is one of the biggest assholes on this show who got away scot free with every vile thing he ever did. That he's the man responsible for bringing Gillian down and did so because of his long friendship with the Commdore absolutely disgusts me. He didn't even do it because he wanted justice for the guy she murdered! Ugh, and this guy still gets to walk around being a "respectable" gentleman.

I'm trying to be hopeful for her but I honestly think it's over. I don't think Nucky will make it in time. The way the scene was shot it was as though that was Gillian's final chance. I think she decided to make a run for it (after 7 years?) because she finally got wind that whatever the doctor was going to do to her would be happening soon maybe even the next day. The way she went into that locked door--to me it was like the scene was telling us that this is it, she's never getting out and her worst fears about living there for the rest of her life are about to be realized only she might be in a state of mind where it doesn't make much difference to her anymore. I feel like Nucky is going to get there and she's going to be a complete shell. She looked way too terrified like the worst possible person to find her in that situation ended up catching her. I bet the operation probably happened right then and there. One of the many sad things about Gillian's letter (honestly, each time this character writes a letter my heart breaks for her) is the observation she made about Nucky being the last person who remembers who she was when she was still hopeful and innocent. Similarly, Gillian is the only person apart from Eli who remembers Nucky before he became the Nucky that we know now. She wasn't only thinking about herself and wanting to get out by writing that letter. When she was talking about forgiveness I felt like she was talking about both herself and Nucky. She wants forgiveness and she's willing to give forgiveness too. She opens the letter with "Dear Sheriff Enoch" as though she's trying to appeal to the man she remembered being good. "Innocent" is the word she actually uses. She thinks they were both innocent prior to that first night she's brought to the Commodore. She really gives a such delicate description too wrt what happened to her with the Commodore and the birth of Jimmy. Everything about the situation is horrifying and it could be described in the most awful way possible but in the letter she boils it down to having the child of a man she didn't love. Just a small observation but I thought it sounded very true to Gillian's character. Another moment in the letter that got to me as I'm sure it must have got to Nucky--when she tells him that she is begging him on her knees, begging him to help save her. Earlier that evening Nucky had just been in the position where he had to humble himself by literally going down on his knees to his enemies. He had to give away everything to save one of the few people who still mean something to him and now he's unexpectedly (considering that he's lost everything) in a position where a person is choosing to go down on their knees to him in order to beg for assistance. To Nucky her situation must seem extremely pathetic considering what a state he's currently in. I think he's going to hate himself for not reading the letter earlier. All the time he spent getting wasted and dreaming about the past he could have been trying to make amends.

I agree with Monty Clift (great username btw!) that it's too early to say if anything has been retconned regarding how Gillian came to the attention of the Commodore. In this episode we saw that Gillian had run away from Nucky and Mabel's so I'm guessing that with the help of the dress Mabel gave her that's how she ends up being chosen to be one of King Neptune's Consorts. They had those barflies who robbed Nucky bring the Consort thing up for a reason and I assumed it was to jog our memories about how Gillian first attracted the Commodore's attention. Gillian mentioned that she'd basically had a wonderful day on the beach prior to having been brought to the Commodore and we didn't see her have that yet. (Not that I necessarily expect us to but since we're getting all of these flashbacks I can see us getting one last pageant-like scene of old time AC.) I think Nucky is going to recognize Gillian when the Commodore points her out to him and Nucky is then going to take advantage of the coincidence. I definitely don't think that Gillian found the Commodore on her own. They've made too much of a point over Nucky's guilt at his involvement in ruining Gillian's life for it to turn out that Nucky isn't the one who brought her into the Commodore's sick world. Initially my thoughts were that Mabel would find out about what Nucky had done and that this would forever sour their marriage but now I'm wondering how she could ever have found out? Does Gillian try to go to her for help one last time? The other thing that's interesting to me is that this all happened around the time Mabel was pregnant. Since we're in the stretch of wrapping things up I'm guessing that this is supposed to be *the* pregnancy where Mabel gives birth to their only child, a premature boy (?) who doesn't live long. I wonder if any stress Nucky put her under contributed to her going into an early labor? Nucky's guilt regarding what happened to Mabel and their child is already understandable without this extra element but I admit that I would kind of like it if Mabel being upset about what Nucky did to a child who needed their help (help that Mabel was willing to give even if Nucky wasn't) ended up being a factor in terms of her going into an early labor. There's something appropriate to me about Nucky having this evil deed come back on him in all kinds of ways that he wouldn't have predicted or imagined.* I wonder if there was ever any talk of Nucky and Mabel raising Gillian's child prior to Mabel's suicide? That seems like it would have been a reasonable solution but maybe it wasn't an option. I'm assuming that Jimmy was born in 1898 since he has to be born when Gillian is still 13 and Gillian was originally brought to the Commodore six weeks before her thirteenth birthday. I'm also thinking that they are going to do a retcon with Mabel's date of death. It really does seem like some of the most important moments in Nucky's life all happened around the same time. *Seriously, it might be a stretch in a way but I honestly think that a lot of the bad things that have happened to Nucky and a lot of the shit that he's had to deal with over the years might never have happened if he hadn't made the decision to help the Commodore rape young girls. I can see it even connecting to the way Nucky lost Billie. Would Gillian have encouraged Gyp & co to bomb Babette's if she didn't have such hatred for Nucky for everything that he'd taken from her?

Not only that but why would she have an attack of conscience last season over whether it was right or wrong to keep quiet about her suspicions regarding Bates?

Is it terrible of me to admit that I was satisfied at hearing the almost universally loved character of Tom say to Mary that he thinks she's a lot nicer than people give her credit for? I can't believe that Edith won't at least verbalize the possibility of telling Mrs Drewe the truth. Furthermore, I can't believe that the pieces didn't fall into place for Mrs Drewe when Edith brought Rosamund over to see Marigold. When Rosamund was saying goodbye and paused before saying "your...friend Rosamund." It was so obvious she'd nearly said "Aunt" I don't know how Mrs. D didn't catch that. Maybe she's just being willfully blind at this point. I loved when Rosamund said of course she wanted to see her niece Marigold. I don't think the plan to send the child to France is the worst since Edith seemed to have big concerns about not wanting to be cast out of society, but since keeping Marigold so far away isn't what Edith wants they need to figure something else out and it needs to happen before Marigold gets too used to being with the Drewes. She's already been taken from one family I'd feel bad for her to bounce from place to place without feeling as though she's found a permanent home. Lol, I know, right? I also didn't make the connection at first that the guy was anti-Semitic. My sympathy pretty much flew out of the window for the count in that moment but I still think the prince seems like a good guy and I hope he ends up connecting with his wife again. I so agree with this. I think they should have introduced a middle class, left leaning school teacher who made a nice enough impression at first but then just ultimately ended up not working out because of various differences and because of her ultimately getting a better opportunity that would take her far away from Tom and his job at Downton. Have one bad dinner not three. Have her be a success at a first meeting, maybe have her connect a bit with another character like Isobel, have her make some witty political commentary in front of the family but then also maybe have her come up against some snobbery from a guest or a member of staff in a couple of moments that maybe Tom doesn't witness so that there's some unexplained awkwardness where he doesn't understand why she doesn't necessarily enjoy social occasions at Downton. I also thought it would have been cool if she'd had the opportunity to have a job in some place like India. She seems like someone who would probably like to see more of the world.

I might very well be done with this show if Isobel doesn't have the sense to take sweet Merton. He's smart, he shares and cares about her interests, he has money, he seems to genuinely love/care for her, and he's friendly and wouldn't have any problem mixing with the sort of people that she might want to bring into their circle. The other thing about the Isobel/Merton thing is that I hate that Violet is taking an active role in trying to sabotage the relationship. I also wasn't sure what to think when Violet acted all confused when Dr Clarkson called her on the possibility that she might very well resent the idea of Isobel enjoying a loftier position in society. It felt like Mabel was saying all of the things JF imagined viewers might say if they'd only heard about Mabel and Tony getting back together without actually seeing it. He wants to give Mabel a spine and make her seem like she's anything but Lavinia (I would have actually assumed this was true without actually having to meet her character) only it ended up feeling kind of forced and false. Still though I laughed when she ended up leaving the two of them there and she seemed miffed that she got to the restaurant early meanwhile Blake made sure to escort Mary. I liked the scenes with Rose and Atticus. I'm guessing his family is supposed to be loosely based on the Rothchild family only in this case they have a Russian background? I hated seeing Cora shut out of the Edith drama. I know it isn't her life at the end of the day but it just seems so mean to not allow her to be trusted, to help, to have an opinion, etc. End then on top of that she ends up getting busted for a situation that she IMO wasn't asking for. If Bricker had really wanted to try to take their relationship to the next stage that night then he should have asked her if he could come to her room. Just showing up and putting her in a situation where she's automatically compromised took me back to Mary and Pamuk and it made me take an automatic dislike to Bricker. Before tonight's episode I thought he was okay but after he barged in on Cora and made her repeatedly ask him to leave I didn't feel all that bad about Robert giving him that first bitch slap. (Lol, I was going to say that Robert punched him in the face but the scene was honestly shot like some sketch comedy from the old 90s show In Living Color and it looked like Robert was giving the guy the back of his hand.)

Wow, the stuff with the Commodore was even worse than I thought it would be in terms of Nucky handing Gillian over. Nucky actually sees with his own eyes the crying, wrecked figure of a young child who has been abused by the Commodore and he still feels like it will be worth it in the long run to put Gillian in a situation where he knows that it's wrong. We saw how uncomfortable he looked when he saw that girl and he was ultimately concerned with how he would be able to profit from the situation. Very sad. The stuff with Ben Siegel wasn't terrible suspenseful considering we know he doesn't die at this point. He's also annoying in general. I kind of LOL when even Mickey Doyle became irritated with Siegel. I feel like it might very well be over for Gillian after that last scene. They wait until the end to show her make an escape attempt and then this ominous shadow comes showing that she's been caught? She looked terrified and I can't help but feel that if Nucky does bother to try to rescue her or visit her that he'll be too late. Too bad he ignored her letter for so long. I thought the moment where Nucky had to go down on his knees was hard. I actually winced but when I remembered that he'd done that to Lansky it made it a little easier to accept.

Wrong thread.

I don't know, I think she has a pretty good handle on her son's taste--he seemed excited by the gift of Twisty acted like he thought he'd be amusing. At this point I think she's somewhat aware of what Dandy is capable of but is under the mistaken impression that she can still contain it or at least keep his more disturbing tendencies on a leash. When Dandy said that he'd told her a hundred times that he had nothing to do with whatever happened to that girl who got him into a spot of trouble that Gloria was able to get him out of because of her connections--I thought it was apparent that she didn't just let the incident go and continued to prod him about it. She has her suspicions I just don't think she's personally seen what he's capable of yet. I have a feeling that'll change though. It'll be interesting to see her reaction if she actually catches him in the act of doing something horrific. I can still see her covering for him in the end but I don't know if their relationship would necessarily be the same after something like that.

I thought Thredson had also been abandoned by his mother and that's one of the reasons his sick ass tried to turn Lana into his "Mommy" and why would pretend to nurse from her and stuff. Plus, Thredson went to med school and Dandy hasn't been shown having any interest in that direction. He should already be on the road to becoming a doctor but he doesn't seem headed in that direction.

Hmm, if Gloria knows that Dandy is disturbed and headed towards serial killer territory, and the theory that they went to that first show in order to pick up a victim for him is correct--wouldn't that explain why they bought out the entire show? Initially I thought it was about them not wanting to mix with the hoi polloi but now I wonder if it was about not wanting to have any witnesses around (apart from the "freaks" in the show whose opinions won't matter/be believed) to see their purchase of their would be victim.

This is one of the reasons I'm pretty convinced that Dandy will end up killing Twisty. If Dandy is giving someone like Twisty the chills then Dandy is definitely bad news and is probably even worse than Twisty underneath the boyish exterior. The only thing that doesn't really make sense to me is why Twisty wouldn't kill Dandy after Dandy started getting extra rude with him. How was the guy at the picnic somehow more offensive than Dandy? The guy in the toy store? The parents of the boy he kidnapped? I'm not convinced that Twisty is simply killing people who aren't interested in seeing him perform. For the most part he doesn't seem to give people a chance to react one way or the other before he decides to begin killing or kidnapping them. What makes Dandy so special? I don't think it was fear because Twisty doesn't hesitate before knocking Dandy out and after that he could have done pretty much whatever he wanted with him. For whatever reason he chose not to and it's hard to imagine why. Definitely. With Jimmy likely doing most of the work at transforming him. I'd like to get more of the backstory of Dandy and Gloria. Was he always like this? Was he abused? What sort of person was his father? (I'm assuming there are no siblings.) How do they make their money? Has Gloria always been completely crazy or has the madness grown over time from caring for someone like Dandy and spending the majority of her time interacting with a person like him? ETA Twisty killed the mom of that boy he kidnapped. I still haven't figured out what makes him pick and choose his victims.

Surrealist, your post got me thinking. Okay, Dandy told his mom that he's bored out of his mind and she ended up having a mini freak out when he got all agitated and stormed out of the house. She said something about how he sometimes does things when he goes out by himself and that they were lucky she was connected with someone in law enforcement because of something Dandy had done awhile back. IMO she totally thought that Dandy was in one of his moods and was going to possibly kill a person. I think she brought Twisty over for Dandy to take out his boredom and aggression. She says to Dandy that he can do "anything" he wants with Twisty. She thinks Twisty is perfect because who would miss him? I don't think that she necessarily knows that Twisty is a psychopathic serial killer and I also can't explain what made her think it would be safe for her to bring Twisty into her car and home but on second viewing I honestly think that she brought Twisty to the house so that Dandy could murder him and think she felt that maybe this would be enough to keep Dandy's cravings satisfied for awhile. Furthermore, I think that there would have been a similar plan to have Dandy take out his boredom on Bette and Dot. It was bad enough that they were discussing buying and selling people and I was surprised that nobody bothered to wonder aloud just why Dandy and his mother would want to buy some conjoined twins from a freakshow who are currently suspects for murder. Alarm bells should have been ringing but the discussion about money and loyalty between fellow outcasts seemed to keep anyone from taking a moment to think about what's really going on with Dandy and his mother. It makes me wonder if they'll try to purchase any other people they see as "freaks" further in the season.

I loved this scene: Isobel: Lord Grantham sounds rather more subtle than I'd realized. Violet: Well, like all Englishmen of his type, he hid his qualities beneath a thick blanket of convention so I didn't see who he really was at first. Isobel: It's lucky you found out in time...If it was in time. Violet: I forget.