Honeycocoa

Wanderwoman, is it possible someone can come stay with you next time you have chemo? I'm hoping you have lots of friends and family who are offering to help. You will be sick, husband needs some rest so he can work and Maisie needs someone to hold her and feed her. It doesn't actually have to be a parent, that's what grandmothers, sisters, and old friends are for. You clearly need help, If you've got anyone offering, please take them up on it. More coffee is not your only solution. They may not do everything right, but it will be better than the last time. I am very sorry you are having such an awful year and I really hope things get much better, very soon. Chick Fil A wanted to build a drive through in our town. City council wouldn't let them due to traffic issues. Pretty sure that was actually politics. There's one a few miles away, but I've never been there... Hope everyone else is doing ok.

It occurs to me that pregnancy is the only time these women are allowed to draw attention to their bodies. They can't do sports or dance or show off any other physical abilities. They are only supposed to draw attention to their faces. So maybe Jessa is enjoying having an excuse to show off her body a little.

Jellybeans, hope you made it through the day ok. Wanderwoman, calcium supliments may be a good idea for you. Someone mentioned that to me a couple weeks after I broke my arm a few years ago. Take good care. JCBrown I 'm just north of you in Mountain View. I used to hang out on another TWoP forum, and that gave me quite an approciation for our lovely mild weather. I've lived within 50 miles of here my whole life so I just take it for granted. You all remind us that we shouldn't. I did live nesr the ocean for a while and I especially miss it in the summer.

Hey, It finally got fun around here again! Ok I want "Chick Lit" book where Jana backs out of her wedding at the last minute and runs away to Savanah, She is offered a huge advance on a book so Jinger moves in with her. They work on the book but then Jana's "Decorating on the Cheap" blog takes off and Jinger gets work as a photographer. Jinger eventually marries someone from the publishers and Jana settle down with Tim Tebow, ( cause apparently that's what's in the collective unconscious and there is no escape). OR the Supernatural! Jackson is bit by a rouge werewolf while out on a hunting trip. Impressed with his supernatural strength, Justin, James , Jason, Jeremiah and Jedidiah decide to transform also. Their new pack leader is thrilled and moves them all to the hills outside Memphis where they make a great living designing and building fantasy tree houses and play structures. In the sequel, Josie becomes a vampire. I didn't even know there was a Jason before I looked up all those names

So Obviously the majority of my sympathy is with the Dugger Daughters. But I wanted to take just a minute and think about how most likely it's really not much fun to be a Dugger son also. ( I'm not talking about Josh, I mean what his brothers have had to put up with) Imagine being 12 year old JD, and suddenly his every move is scrutinized and he's barely allowed to talk to his twin Jana any more. Maybe they were never close to begin with , but I'm sure what ever relationship they had got clearly separated when all this happened. No wonder the guy is so bland. that was safest way for him to be, to not attract any attention. It must be really creepy for the boys, who have all these rules about not touching, not baby sitting, not being alone with their siblings. It must have been really confusing for Joseph and Si too. I'm sure their dad grilled them about Impure thoughts all the time. Yuck. I feel much worse for the girls, but these boys were pretty poorly parented too.

There is a giant yellow butterfly floating around on the purple lantana outside my windows. Back to weird dreams about the Duggers for a sec? Last night I dreamed I was helping the Dugger girls put on their new skirts. The skirts were solid, rigid plastic. There is a brand of small dolls that little girls play with - Polly Pocket or something? all the clothes are plastic and they just snap on and off the dolls. That's what these were like(in my weird dream) The Dugger girls were all trying to put on theses solid plastic skirts but they were having problems because they needed shorter ones for sitting and longer ones for standing. and in my dream I was helping them snap in and out of various skirts. ( over regular clothes I think). It was oddly frustrating because they wouldn't make up their minds. Wanderwoman, glad you found some counseling, Micks Pick glad you found your dog. Seashellover there are LOTS of books about raising boys out there. I know you already raised your kids, but some new books might be interesting for you. Good luck with all the homework over the summer. I think one of my favorite things about summer is no homework!

Hi Wanderwoman. Yes very normal, but the two of you have a new normal now and you have to negotiate issues that you never had to worry about before. You have a great history to build on, but I your life is different now. My Mother in Law passed away eight weeks after my son was born ( and my dad had heart surgery and one of the cats died) We were a mess. After four months we went to Disneyland because it was the only thing I could think of that I knew would make my husband smile. My mom went with us to help and we all felt a little better when we got back. I swear thinking about that band new baby time just gives me chills. You guys are having your own little post traumatic stress here that you are dealing with . This sure as hell wasn't normal birth, whatever you need to do to take care of each other is probably a good idea. Good luck surviving the sleep over Seashells! And I don't know my animee, but I did take a wonderful trip to Japan once. Such a beautiful country!

The magazines came out today. People is "Duggers Dark Secrets" and In Touch really goes for it with "House of Horrors" So all the Dugger fans who don't go on line much ( but do go through check out stands) are suddenly noticing. The In Touch article has photos of the police report, the People article is pretty general, neither of them has any information we haven't already seen here. It's interesting to me that the Dugger family FB page etc seem completely un touched. They used to delete anyone who disagreed with them and they have gone completely silent. Which is honestly appropriate, but so un like them. I'm picturing them slowly working their way through all the canned food. I hope their friends drop off some fresh fruit for the kids.

Thank you Wellfleet. I'm embarrassed of how much I've been thinking about the Duggers. ( and how long it took me to write that post). I worry about Josh harming himself. Not that I'm all that concerned about him at the moment, but that would be terrible for Anna and the kids. I worry about Jill getting depressed - lack of sleep , new baby and this hideousness. I'm concerned about Jessa's pregnancy. I think we all want the girls and the other sons to get better some how. Clearly prayer alone is not going to cut it. Honestly, if this isn't t a message from God that your lifestyle isn't working out, I don't know what is. If they want conventional people to listen to them, they need to try conventional methods sometimes. This could be an opportunity for positive change. I hope they don't just double down on the same old, same old and make it worse. Autumnj, Chai and Others thank you for sharing. I hope this all isn't too triggering and you are taking good care of yourselves. I've never believed the "you have to forgive" theory of healing. You sound like capable people with good resources, but just in case, the book I used to recommend for women is The Courage to Heal by Bass and Davis ( and Victims No Longer by Lew for men) I wish I could have a few copies airlifted to the TTH, Jessa and Jill. sigh...

I think Josie could narrate the new opening. The kids could all be shown in group shots, ( no Josh). "Catching up with the Duggers." because people who enjoyed them should see what actually happened to them. I've been wating for them to fail, but I never wanted it to be this bad.

I know they don't . But I'm pretty sure Josh doesn't wan to be a pariah forever. And Michelle and Jim Bob wan the show to keep going n some form. If you want the general public to support you , you need to accept general standards of treatment and behavior This could be an opportunity for some change, who knows?

Adding my 2 cents to the swarm. I tried to watch the Digging In episode and only lasted 10 minutes. It was just so very creepy . There’s nothing entertaining about wondering who committed what crime against who when. As a retired mental health professional I should have a higher tolerance than this, but no one is paying me, so I’m not observing. I’ve been thinking about this way too much, so in trying to be constructive I made up a treatment plan. Please note this is all very much based on the idea that nothing has happened in the past 12 years and that all crimes were accounted for in the police report. If it turns out there’s more ( please God, no) all bets are off. Josh needs to understand that if he ever wants any credibility he needs to seek experienced, professional help from a licensed mental health professional. Prayer, apology and remodeling just doesn’t cut it in the real world and I think Josh does like living in the real word. There are therapists who work with offenders. Local probation officers and domestic violence agencies can refer him. I don’t think he needs an inpatient program at this point. But he needs to commit to some serious treatment. He needs to commit some form of restitution. This is how we deal with crimes in this society, is via money. Funds should be set up for the victims and Josh makes regular payments. The victims can do whatever they want with the money. Support a charity or go to Vegas, I don’t care. Something along the lines of property management seems like a good “job “ for Josh. Or a prison ministry. Clearly fundraising and politics are over. He and his family need to come up with a policy whereby he never spends the night in a house with women and children other that his immediate family. If some family visits them, or they travel, he stays in a hotel. No one should ever have to worry about sleeping in the same house with him again. Anna needs her own therapist. An experienced, licensed professional who works with offender families. She needs someone confidential to talk to who can help her through this crisis. She also needs reliable child care. It’s not fair to ask Mackenzie to watch the boys while mommy goes in her room to cry for three hours. And she needs to seriously re-think that "instant obedience " nonsense. That's just setting your kid up to be abused. Kynzie, Marcus and Michael need to be evaluated by a specialist to make sure they are safe. Assuming all is well, some regular play therapy would probably be a good idea for a while, as their parents are extremely stressed. There should also be a long term check in plan. Michelle and Jim Bob need some couples counseling from a specialist on how to care for their family when there has been a crime. Again, probation officers and Domestic Violence agencies can refer them. I would love for them to get individual counseling, but I don’t know that they are capable of that. They need some professional help to assist in their daughters’ recovery. The Dugger daughters. Jana, Jill, Jessa, Jinger and JoyAnna all need individual counseling with experienced licensed therapists who work with abuse survivors. They should each have their own therapists. Springdale Ark lists three pages of female therapist so I think they will each be able to find someone. Again they need confidential, professional help. They also should also be able to decide when and if they want to see their abuser or the adults who failed to protect them. ( Josh, Michelle, Jim Bob and Mary) In an ideal world these women would get their own home. ( Jill and Jessa already do, obviously) I don’t think Jana and Jinger are willing to leave the littles however, so that means Michelle Jim Bob and Mary need to move out. Take over a rental property or something. They can visit, do Bible time or whatever, but if the older girls want to leave then, they can. This doesn’t have to be permanent, but a good year of recovery time should help enormously. They will also need additional childcare in the TTH, someone who they know and trust to help with the littles while the older girls are trying to take care of themselves. Jessa and Ben and Derrick and Jill could most likely use some actual couples counselling too. The other older sons could probably share a therapist. A couple individual sessions, maybe some group therapy. I’m sure this is a painful time for them too. The smaller kids need to be screened by a professional, again a couple individual sessions and some group ones. No one under the age of ten needs to know exactly what happened, they will have a hard time respecting their sisters’ privacy and just need to know that something bad happened. Regularly scheduled follow ups should be scheduled. The TLC staff could probably use some professional help. I’m sure they are in shock. And then they all just need to back off and decide whether to do any follow up specials in 6 months or so. This is not the time to make these decisions. They need to see if there were any more crimes and how all these individuals recover. Sorry for the long post, hopefully I can stop thinking about this now.

I look forward to hearing about your adventures in Trinidad, Netfood..And I'm glad to hear Buddy is behaving himself. We recently took a trip to Yosemite (National Park) . given that we only live 31/2 hours away, it's somewhat inexcusable that we haven't been back in a decade. In my childhood we went up at least every other year. Yosemite is a very popular park and I wasn't looking forward to dealing with the Lodge being crowded. So I was very pleased to learn there are houses you an rent very, very close to the park. They aren't actually in it, but the only way you can get to the residential area is through the park. Yosemite West is off of Wawona Road ( also know as highway 41) So we got a three bedroom house, which was much more convenient for my octogenarian parents. My dad had somewhere comfy to hang out while the rest of us went on a mule ride up to Mirror lake, etc. Since we were half way to Glacier Point and the Wawona Hotel and Mariposa big trees, we went there too - normally we just stay in the valley. There was snow in the high country when we got there and we saw lots of coyotes and deer. My mom has so many memories of traveling there when she was a child. and my son had done a report on Yosemite last year - in fourth grade they all study state history and famous places, so he was very impressed. The views are just so incredible. It was a great trip. I hope everyone is well, I miss hanging out on line with my old Meet Market friends.

Yes, in the comment section of that piece the author clarifies that she should have called it "the Five Tiers of Christian Homeschooling". Nosing around on her website you can find some interesting posts. It's like reading about a whole different culture for me. Some interesting writing on Stay at Home Daughters and another one on Losing the Purity movement. ( I'm glad they know they're losing) Someone up page commented that Jana should be given a copy of Carolyn Jessop's Escape. ( which is about the Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints) Polygamy is to weird for Jana , I don't think she'd relate. (despite the fact that we refer to them as sister moms, they are pretty hard core about the monogamy) Despite the author being Jewish I think she would relate better to UnOrthodox,the Scandalous Rejection of my Hassidic Roots by Deborah Feldman. They have a lot more in common. If I knew she were being compensated like a working adult, I would feel better about Jana's sad life. Maybe she could get a full time position with Journey to the Heart.. But I don't know if that operates year round. Everyone seemed to like the travel episodes, they got decent ratings. Jana and Jinger should get to go on a trip!

At some point the show is going to need to start addressing this issue. Maybe we will get a "Jana's Escape " episode when Jana, Jinger and Grandma go to Savannah for a long weekend or something. They can eat in nice restaurants ( without kids!) and go for walking tours or spa days or whatever it is that would be fun for them. ( do they even know?) Of course, I'd really like to send her to Hawaii, Alaska or Disneyworld, and Jinger would like to go to NYC, but Jim Bobs not going to let that happen- so maybe they'll just get a girls weekend away sometime. The producers can show how much the family misses them when they are gone etc. Maybe the producers will ask Jana a little bit about what she wants. I'm sure she knows people wonder about her. It's unfortunate that it's all so public, she doe seem like she's rather not be noticed. But it is getting a little weird, given their lifestyle. I think she's choosing to stay home and raise her siblings, myself. I think she has deliberately decided to stay with them for a few more years because she knows her parents can't deal with the little ones and she doesn't want to dump it all on Joy. I suspect Jinger will get married next , and then Jana in four or five years. ( I don't have much of a read on the boys) ETA. You know if they would just come out and say " We have a family business of public speaking. Jimbob and Michelle travel a lot so Jana's job is raising her younger siblings and it's a real JOB and she get paid for it" I think it would be a little more ok. But no, they have to pretend she's just "helping" while waiting for some guy to show up... ETA2 an interesting article about the different cultures for home schooling. first saw it posted on Pickles and Hairspray FB page.. https://my32cents.wordpress.com/2015/04/07/the-5-tiers-of-homeschooling/

I thought Amy had her own show these days...? I really wonder what it's like in that house now that the snitch ( Jill) and the sergeant (Jessa) are gone? Is it calmer and more relaxed? or is it more chaotic? Is it actually easier when there are less people to manage, or is it harder because there are less managers? It must be weird for them.

To get back to Jusagirlintheworld's question for a second, My impression is that these large families have a lot of systems. - all house hold chores done at certain times in certain ways etc. No spontaneity at all.... The first Dugger book ( 20 and Counting!) apparently tells you some of their systems. If you click on it in the on line book shop of your choice it will refer you to other books. This seems to be what these mega moms do, raise a pile of kids and then write a book tell you how you can do it too. There's also a lot of blogs... I've read a few blogs, some day I may check some of these books out of the library. It's like reading about a foreign country for me, I am an only child and I have an only child. I know my limits. I don't really know how they do it, and I don't think they are doing a good job, but I do know they'd be happy to tell you about it, if you'd like to check out their books.... Other books you might find interesting is Unorthodox the Scandalous Rejection of my Hassidic Roots, about a young woman who leaves the Hassids and Escape, about a woman who left the FLDS. I haven't seen any books about leaving the Quiverful movement, But there are blogs, so I'm sure there will be books sometime. And we're all waiting for that Dugger kid tell all , some day...

Well, that would be Jana and JD. Neither married and I feel pretty safe assuming not pregnant at the age of 25. I like to think Jana is choosing to stay single for now, but I may just be making that up. Dang it would be great if Jessa's not pregnant, just gaining some weight cooking for only two. but I doubt it...

Wanderwoman I happened to be online and read the first version of your big post. It was a doozy, you have been through so very much. I hope you were able to save it somewhere for yourself. I'm hoping your laptop ( or tablet or whatever) has some type of Journal app so you can cut and paste all your entries and then add whatever private details you want. Writing it all down can be so theraputic and It will be amazing to read through in the future. Nurses are amazing people, and they do it every day. I appreciate them so much. I hope they kept the comfy chair for you and your friends and family can bring you good food. Take good care of yourself. and thank you for updating us.

She also sounds like she has more energy than her husband yeah, medication is wonderful thing... Hope they are done with the announcements and spend as much time as possible sleeping.

I've known an Israel for a good 20 years, His mom was a pretty religious Christian( he is not.) He went by "Iggy" most of his youth and then somewhat transitioned to Israel a professional adult. A very fun, goofy guy, I wish baby Isreal a lot of fun and goofyness too . Also there is "Bruddah Iz" ( Isreal Kamakawiwawaole) the Hawaiian musician with one of the worlds sweetest voices. I hope they play some of his music for the baby. He is most famous for his medley of "Somewhere Over the Rainbow " and Wonderful World". Yes, Bruddah Iz was huge, just listen. Glad everyone is healthy and safe. Glad to see Jill not doing that raised eyebrow pose. This is what she really looks like. Hope she can get some rest.

This is all hypothetical. It sounds like both Jill and Jessa were given a sum of money to pay for their wedding and honeymoons. Jill and Derrick went to North Carolina which looks to be a $350 plan ticket and they stayed at a rented house. Jessa and Ben went to Paris and Italy which looks to be about $1,500 a ticket and I assume they stayed in hotels. Which is leading me to believe Jessa's wedding was at least $5,000 cheaper than Jill's because they spent so much more on the honeymoon. Which explains the lack of chairs, heaters, decent dresses and food. They really should have let her have the smaller ceremony at Thorncrown...

My people! Yea! ( you, not them) Yeah, not loving the blind date aspect at all. My guess is that it wont matter much by midway through the race, but wow, eould it be painful to be stuck on the race with slme stranger who you activly disliked. Great to see Phil and Tokyo.

Congratulations Wanderwoman. Just take good care of yourself, get some rest. I'm so glad everything is ok so far and will hope for the best for you. Hope you are able to hold her and get a good nights sleep soon.

Happy New Year, Y'all!