Faemonic

This one time I've got to agree with Orza. Even without time travel, I only heard 1.) Emma's worry that Marian was condemned to death and 2.) Hook's worry that leaving Marian alive would mess with the order of the universe unpredictably. Character worry doesn't make something true, and I'm not taking the creators/writers' tweets or convention statements under consideration either, I'm just taking what was shown in that half-season. Unless I missed something not watching the episode with Robin and Zarian in New York, Marian's arrest could have been a close scape. Like, occupational hazard of being an outlaw's wife. They could laugh over this one time a random sorcerer queen put Marian in prison with only utensils wrapped in wire for company. Because I really can't believe there was a timeline where Regina executed Marian. I can't believe Robin wouldn't have figured that out in less than 30 years considering what a big name Snow White was, or not dropped something just a tad more specific than "my wife died and I'm sad", or just not been so chill in general (as though she died by accident or illness, not unjust death penalty.) If anything, Emma's rescue of Marian sealed an association that would have maybe otherwise been laughed off and forgotten. (Because it certainly didn't become a calling in bandit solidarity! What sort of lousy anarchists are the Merry Men?) Due to Emma's rescue, Marian was last seen under arrest by Queen Regina...before (rumor mill could go) maybe escaping but definitely vanishing mysteriously. It would have been interesting to watch Robin's conflict with those rumors, yes, moreso if Regina Executed Marian were a fact...but, as that's not really set up, no surprise there was never any follow through. Anyway, he's dead now too.

Oops. Ehh, guess that also works, "character before mythology" as A&E said. As I recall...yes in the cartoon movie? Hoffman's Hook definitely did.

Aw! I haven't watched that episode, but that's been my headcanon since/despite Good Form! Barrie's Captain Hook was described as 1) always wondering if he'd good form today, like his conscience nags him, because he has one, but and this be a big but I cannot lie: 2) his eyes glow red with delight when he kills somebody. So I liked to think that Liam would have picked up on mischievous or outright sadistic behavior from baby Killian, and used his big bro powers to go, "What the devil is wrong with you? Be good!" And it works, because Killian actually does have a conscience and forms sincere empathic attachments. He just has...other...tendencies as well. To bring it back to the writers...does this mean that whoever usually writes Hook actually did as much research on the source material as Colin? (Because Colin did research, he quoted a speech that Barrie gave...and when I tried to search online for the full text of that specific speech back then, I only found information on how difficult the full text of that speech is to find. I don't expect writers—or actors—to go as far as corporate espionage, but...it would be nice to think these writers cared?)

Whoops, thanks! From what I've read, though, this fandom is all too loud when it comes to main villain favoritism, like...we can't enjoy all three as characters? Why noooot? There might be some subtle friction between Snowing Needs Parenting Classes versus Nuh-uh Emma Swan Is Just An Adult Brat, and that's not as dominant. It's all mostly a fandom issue, anyway, I think, unless I missed a canon bawl, which is likely.

Squee! Screwballninja answered my anon about the Regina-Rumple mentorship: here. And while I can step back and be entertained by BOTH the wraith and Reg's smile when they found gold straw in Zelena's basement (what's a little attempted murder between friends?) I can totally understand if someone, say, identifies with Regina AND had a sucky real-life relationship with a mentor, and why they'd then be all "keyboardmash rumple iz so worst!" Or if someone identifies with Rumple and had a sucky real-life relationship with an emotional blackmailer who blamed them for everything, that could get projected onto Regina whether she's justified to complain about his influence/treatment or not. Because I think the characters here are usually more inconsistent than complex, but I'm personally most likely to accept a complex relationship from these two characters particularly. Just an unsolicited and not unanimously agreed-upon message I wanna put out, here, to a node of the Fandom that surely doesn't need it: It's not what or who you like about the source material that's most interesting, it's why.

Back at the TWoP forums, one of the more vocal Hook haters noped out because ey couldn't convince the rest of us that airy theoreticals about moral nobility meant that Rumple's motive was Right and more sympathetic across the board and Hook's was Wrong and bad. It took me a lot of self-control to not snap back that this person had obviously never really suffered real injustice and consequently the real wrath, "your feelings are just your feelings and a choice" dismissal of lived experience aside. What I would have said would have been unfair, since we can't stop people relating to what they'll relate to...But, can't stop people relating to what they'll relate to. And shouldn't. When fandom fractures into factions, it may seem as though what or who a group of people fan over are the most important reason, but actually I think it's the why. And that's not so much a group zeitgeist, though it can be, but individual. I personally was more interested in the villain side of Hook, too, back then, to a point that might have creeped out another Hook fan who loved the gentleman puppy aspect more. Thank you Shannah for sharing.

I agree with the Power/Persecution fantasy fulfillment for Snow White's Evil Queen. Heck, Bettelheim wrote on that before Regina Mills was conceived. The underlying discomfort I understand of some Hook haters is that he's a cisgendered heterosexual man's power fantasy of toxic masculinity validated in how Hookers love him in spite of the alcoholism, physical violence, and shouting. And I am long past trying to remind such ardent haters that there are other differ perspectives (Captain Hook is genderqueer! It Is Written! Written in the Book of Canon-ier Than This Show!) that are equally valid that doesn't mean theirs aren't because that's closer to how fiction works actually. *cough* Captain Floor. ...Okay maybe I am not that long past. But if we do turn to Exhibit B and consider Hook a Villain Sue on par with Ramsay Bolton, Joffrey Lannister, Craster and Baelish combined then ...Umm, no? I mean someone other than me would possibly have at it. I might alternately appreciate and pity Hook's sexual confidence, and when other viewers don't take it as well then they're free to say and do what's right for them. L'il o me can't help but notice that he's disabled commoner normie among royals and sorcerers. As for the persecution fantasy aspect as opposed to actually unjust persecution...Captain Floor is comedy gold. Yeah I got nothing.

Eight words to doom any show: "I don't care what happens to these characters."

This is true. This is so much truth that I only posted to quote this. Emma should be a Mary Sue but isn't. That's laudably skillful writing. Why isn't it contagious.

I agree but, strangely, can't articulate exactly what the failing is beyond a case by case by case and trend basis. It's like defining a Mary Sue, which in my opinion devolved into a laundry list of traits that could apply to any main character; there remain characters I scream at for being Mary Sues, but the fact is I only know it when I see it. There's a trope called Cerberus Syndrome that I might personally be prone to, but hell if I know what violence and despair someone else will consider gratuitous (that I felt was both necessary to the story and adequately resolved.) If there's an audience willing to support ever-external, shallow conflicts that are resolved ex machina and invite or even require so much projection, that's technically okay/worthwhile/good storytelling? It's just not going to be my cuppa tea.

You know what I think it would be cool if? The complicated mixed family situation that Regina was oh so concerned about Roland suffering to grow up with, as she told Robin on the park bench while Marian not yet retconned to Zarian fed ducks with her tiny child. The slice-of-life terse amiability or subtle melancholy. Couldn't we have that for at least an arc?

That wall between the pros and we derivative/transformative amateurs used to be broken down by wrecking balls like Anne Rice's lawyers. As long as this wave of wall-breaking is based on mutual respect on an individual level, I'm not personally averse to it. It should be passe by now to argue that it would change culture into something easily abused, like accusations of plagiarism was to fanfiction-existing-at-all. Let's not ignore this generation of ascended fanwork creators, either: Cassie Claire, Seanan Mcguire (strong language in the link), whoever wrote the SQ AU book, and whoever published CS AU Coach something? And even A&E, who write pro fanfic. All criticism against how they do it dissolves the glorious golden inferno of the fact that they can pay the mortgage and send their kids to university doing what I would love (although I would love it less on a deadline, by committee, with executive meddling and feedback from the cesspool of Twitter). That said, I often can't help but notice that the writing on this show is...not...good sometimes. And the actors come off as thinking they're savvy for knowing ship names but I want to tell them to run and save themselves from Fandom culture do NOT go down this rabbit hole. And especially that fan behavior is...not...good sometimes. I'm remembering Colin's S2 interview I think in Montreal. He mentioned seeing some fans made fan art of him (or of Killian Jones, who he bears a suspicious physical resemblance to)...and my blood froze. Killian Jones was kind of a Mr. Sexy Fanservice type character. What kind of fan-art did Colin get to see? Was all I could think. So, I totally get the impulse to want to primly call out to fellow fans for us to show some decency, please! But, for practicality, this may not entirely be the correct course of action. Oh, my favorite cafe in this college town has a TV hooked up to the computer on which the owner/cashier watches music videos. We can make requests! I wanted to watch The Words again (Christina Perri) but my friend was feeling 90s nostalgia. I fought to have my choice play first. And I regret it, because the follow-up to "The Words" was my friend's request, Eminem's "Stan" (feat. Dido). Two very different fan behaviors serve as the backstories. (Then a third friend requested "Don't Dream It's Over" and the music video was just kind of weird. Goats and parachuters. Cheered me up a bit.)

Was the armpit licking fanfic the one the kid was showing Lana in the book in the picture? Without effective line handlers, maybe steering into the thing seemed like the thing to do. I mean, I heard that Cumberbatch was put on the spot to read a fanfic aloud by I think a talk show host? The fanfic writer reportedly felt humiliated, because they didn't post their fic expecting that to happen. Apparently it's been the cool thing to do, since Supernatural, for the Powers That Be to slum it with the plebians. On the upside, things can't get more awkward from now on. Or can they?

By the end of the Frozen arc, I decided to only tune in for the Hook episodes because I thought the good writing for his character was contagious and the flaws easy to shelve ("trying to get me drunk...usually my tactic" Whoever scripted that line, I am frowning at you! Deeply! Now let me watch Hook wallop Hook with his right hook,) Then I watched Swan Song and was sort of thinking, hrmm, not a magic good writing charm after all... From what I gather, the TV series Charmed had a similar problem. Two of the actresses became producers of the show, coincidentally their characters' storylines took a turn for the Mary Sue. This was good for the likability of Paige Matthews (played by Rose McGowan, our Young Cora) because that character came to the fore when the story called for it rather than for office politics reasons. I guess that less is more? But I'd say it's also a matter of working well with what's got to work with, what's kept central or balanced, and, haha...no. (Like come on, Phoebe had all that potential angst being the rebel runaway returning to fulfill this onerous family legacy, and the storyline devolved to being annoyed that saving the world got in the way of her job as the best advice columnist in the world ever with book deals and talk shows.)

Bwah! This. This is Hooked Queen in a Dianthus minute. But yeah, my headcanon Regina would be too loyal to Rumple to want to get between Captain Hook and his Crocodile (but too loyal to Cora to not have a go at the Gold.) Besides, without magic Hook will always be minor league evil, but his attitude is less pliant than Daniel or Robin, so would that be worth it to Regina? I think she'd think about it and come out with an unconflicted "Nope!" Besides, Cora would turn our Captain inside-out and then make him explode if Regina liked him as more than a boytoy, because he doesn't even have a Lordship.

It would have been more characteristic to show that so we miss Robin more...and in the next episode go sort of, "Babies? What babies? You mean Prince Neal II? Or the Rumbelle baby?" Like wee Willy Jones, unless that was addressed this season.

The balance between criticism and preferences is a difficult one, yes. Art and entertainment is so subjective, even valorizing economic success or narrative formula gets suspicious to use as a benchmark for what's good or what worked well. So, the most I can do is grumble something about emotional payoff and realize by now that this is not going to be that sort of show. The first season baited a lot of emotional investment, and there are even aspects of the Frozen arc and that one episode from the Camelot arc that I had to applaud unironically. But. But! But...bleargh.

My fave was Hook having her look at the waterscape before bringing up her increasingly rocky relationship with Snowing. It could have been conducted on the walk to Mr. or Mademoiselle Magic-the-Thing for reasons, but no this was downtime. And Emma's emotional journey and relationships were the plot, in a way, so. The article did seem to mostly suggest that audiences shouldn't interfere with artists because audiences don't know what they need, we only know what we want, whereas it is the job of artists to give us the stories we need (psychologically and emotionally) even if we don't like it. Surely we've witnessed enough vitriolic vapidity to get where that's coming from? With this show, these writers, and this fandom though I'm not sure if the evident decay of creative integrity can be blamed on fanservice or Executive meddling...if fanficcy genres really are the way these professionals write.

There's some discussion on the Writers thread about Parilla's influence on character relationships writing: She asked for Regal Believer, she got it. But she also suggested Hooked Queen. I would actually have been on board with Hooked Queen for as long as they're challenged, but the narrative imperative of this Universe seems to really hate that. How well would that have gone over with Cora and Rumple in the mix, on the level of character relationships?

Taking my reply to the Relationships thread.

Actually, I am not so sure about that. Maybe I've been reading the wrong fanfiction, this one (Ducklings, ignore the foreword), this one...but the quoted article's "sub-sitcom interactions" in fanfiction that lack a plotty conflict is...maybe kind of what this show could benefit from? Like, oh, please, yes, more slice of life! This show has shiny magic and easily bored concept people, so an easy fix seems to be the way of it...

I ship Hook with all characters that are past the age of majority and not related to him by blood, so I really believe this could have worked. Then again, 3B soured Captain Swan a lot for me. I walked the plank off Rumbelle the first time in Storybrooke that Belle ran off and came back. So, I must admit that it's awfully easy to ruin something for me. I don't know how y'all other shippers find the hope/faith/fortitude. But TS;TW would have soured Hooked Queen in like 0.2 seconds.

That's what I considered strange about Swan Song. Writer's Pet and dark horse Fan Favorite, united for the first time in a real scene since the Papa Pan arc! Why was it not working. These are the showrunners. I thought that meant that they...umm...got it more than everyone. But something about it left me feeling as though I'd watched a really bad episode. With what they had to work with, every character and element a piece of epically explosive chemistry? I was flabbergasted as to how they managed to make it fall so flat. The only conclusion I can reason out is there isn't any good writing being sacrificed. That, that's just really the way that they write. So...showrunners as idea people maybe more than scene dialogue people?

It's probably just Ethan self-hacking again. I don't know how to take the earth-dwelling god of the Trekkie fandom deigning to tweet in this direction. Not that Trekkies are bad, I'm pretty sure my mum was one, but...I keep thinking this fandom must have gotten really attention-catchingly reputation-ruiningly bad! (Or the Shatner gets bored.)

I think I was playing Final Fantasy IX which was sort of medieval sword and sorcery but the discovery of magic steam powered technology was making monarchs wage war or something. That was when I first heard the term. The Three Musketeers (2011 film) is basically what steampunk does, compare it to more traditional Three Musketeers movies. Oh, I watched Lindsay Ellis's review of the Phantom of the Opera, it's a two-parter, the first examining the character of Erik from the novel to right before the musical by Lloyd Webber and then after. The sequel, Love Never Dies, is so bad that it shoots the moon and comes back to can't not watch. The main reason for this being, while Andrew Lloyd Webber may have identified...a lot...with Erik the Phantom and unappreciated musical genius and penchant for chestnut-haired ingenues, the character development was spot on. Ellis put it best, how just because someone had a sucky life doesn't mean they're not a villain if they treat people like puppets or make demands without acknowledging another person's agency. Erik learns this. That's the show. The sequel positions Erik as the main character protagonist hero thing, but he's still a colossal megalomanaical jerk and now has no reason for it But villainy is inherently interestinger and sexie also so nyah.