forever

I always felt that way even based on her talk show appearances! And I agree that she does seem to suffer from that same trying too hard to be adorable and quirky but coming off like a ditzy, self-centered, manic annoyance syndrome that afflicted Lorelai. This article, or more like gifs with snarky commentary, really cracked me up. It was written before the revival. The writer savagely eviscerates all of Rory's boyfriends, so if you hate reading criticism about Dean, Jess or Logan, don't click the below link! Even as someone who loves Jess, I found it hilarious. I should mention that it includes a lot of cursing in case that bothers anyone. https://www.buzzfeed.com/hannahjewell/team-nobody-cause-they-all-sucked?utm_term=.maOGGWE9zk#.gcDPPwY8yV

Me too! Emily is significantly meaner and far more deliberately calculating and manipulative than Lorelai. Lorelai is an adult - at least in terms of her chronological age, lol - so there's little excuse for why she continues to make the same types of terrible choices repeatedly, but they usually stem from too much impulsiveness and too little thought and consideration, not a desire to inflict pain. I think of Lorelai and Rory as mostly decent people who have a lot of terrible qualities and some awful moments, while I'd assess Emily, who so often deliberately chooses to be downright vicious, in an even less flattering way than that. :) It's possible that I'm just weary of all the TV critics and social media people who hold up Emily as by far the "best" Gilmore while to me she's an even worse person overall. That's just my view of them. I'm not saying Lorelai didn't earn this hate thread, just that in my opinion some other GG characters are at least equally deserving! Anyway, time to join the snark :) I mentioned this one on the unpopular opinions thread: that moment when an embarrassingly drunk Lorelai hijacks Lane and Zach's wedding to somehow make it about her, turning what should have been a toast to Lane and Zack into a humiliating, narcissistic diatribe about her own private life in front of all of Lane and Zach's nearest and dearest. I'm blushing just remembering that scene. The secondhand embarrassment is intense. I know she's done worse things, but that one has me cringing more than almost any other part of the original series. As I mentioned, I usually understand Lorelai's point of view more than Emily's when they clash, but Lorelai was so awful in Secrets and Loans when Emily was just trying to help her get the money she needed. And it's not like Lorelai doesn't readily accept money directly from her parents at other points in the series anyway. But I should probably just block out everything having to do with finances and class on this show since like so many have said they are depicted in ways that are so unrealistic, inconsistent and just a mess. I agree that Lorelai is so rude and infuriatingly irrational at her parents' house during A Deep Fried Korean Thanksgiving that I have to skip those scenes every single time I rewatch that episode. Sometimes at town meetings and events, Lorelai has this way of mocking the other Stars Hollow residents in a way that crosses from playful to mean. She seems to have this ambivalent relationship with the town, wanting to be involved and to be adored but also holding herself above and apart somehow, like she not very secretly believes she's better than most of these "friends" of hers. A lovely self-superiority that she got from her mother and seemed to hand down to her own offspring. :) I should hate the way Lorelai froze out Rory when she left Yale, but it feels so out of character that I can't even bother getting too annoyed at anyone except the writers for contriving to keep the Gilmores apart even if it meant they had to be somewhat out of character for that to happen. I feel like Lorelai would be pestering Rory and initially making Rory's issues more about herself than her daughter, but not ignoring her and shutting her out entirely. That's more how Luke and Rory deal with conflict, not Lorelai. The one exception is how Lorelai eventually dealt with Emily, but even that didn't last long. It's more like Lorelai to tell Rory 24/7 exactly why she dislikes her choices than to stop talking to her altogether. I really hate when Lorelai uses her attractiveness and what I think is supposed to be adorable charm to flirt her way into getting special favors that no one else is entitled to. And the older she got, the more the cutesy flirtatious routine and relying on everyone to do things purely because she's cute and easy on the eyes started to seem a little embarrassing. It feels good to vent! This is the kind of show I love intensely but with reservations, and it's hard not to criticize individual aspects of it no matter how much I love it as a whole.

I meant that to me the drinking was excessive to the point where some viewers could reasonably find it problematic even though that wasn't the writers' intention, not that the writers were supposed to sit around calculating exactly how the majority of the viewing public would feel about it.

This one is just weird, but at least it's a new topic I don't think you all have discussed yet: does anyone else feel like there was a little too much drinking on this show? Drinking that some viewers might find borderline problematic but is never pointed out as such on screen so is clearly not supposed to be? As you all would say, I think I will be at a table for one on this issue! I do know it's a strange thing to point out, but it especially stood out to me during the revival, when it seemed like characters were guzzling down alcohol in almost every scene. (My friend and I, old and sentimental as we are, sighed nostalgically over when Rory was always seen clutching books and coffee. In the revival, she held only alcohol and cell phones in nearly every scene. How dare she grow up? ;)) Even during the OS, it seemed like Lorelai drank a lot, and by the way, if my mom got that drunk at my best friend's wedding and treated the entire crowd to a mortifying speech all about her own problematic love life, I think I would have to change my name and go into hiding because my humiliation would be eternal. Logan seemed to be an excessive drinker too. I understand why defenders of his character will counter that most college students party and I agree, but do most college students carry around a flask and drink alone whenever their daddies irritate them? I only knew one kid who drank alone and that excessively in college, and he needed a stint in rehab soon after we graduated. Typing out that paragraph reminded me that I agree with people who think Lorelai and Logan are very similar. And if Lorelai hadn't had responsibility thrust upon her at such a young age in the form of an unexpected pregnancy, I think Lorelai would have been even more similar to Chris and Logan, who were more frivolous, impulsive, reckless and carefree in large part because their lifestyles afforded them that luxury. I will compete for the queen of unpopularity by adding that I think Luke and Dean are very similar too. "Guy's guy" types, both into fixing things, sports and outdoor activities, both by their own admission "simple", what you see is what you get type of people as opposed to the rest of Gilmore Girls' somewhat more complex characters, both are smart about pragmatic matters though neither is intellectual or very academically inclined, both are genuinely content with a no frills, small town life in a way that many of Gilmore Girls' other characters wouldn't be, and both are prone to jealousy and have problems controlling their tempers. They just always reminded me a lot of each other. I always suspected one reason Luke was so over the top in his dislike of and rudeness towards Dean was that he saw things in Dean that reminded him of himself, and maybe not the parts of himself he likes most. I promised the friend I watch Gilmore Girls with that I would ask the experts here your opinions on a pressing issue we were discussing: if the next "revival" were structured as a murder mystery, which frankly I think would be a vast improvement over what we got, which three characters would you most want to see as the victims? These are the sort of things we mull over while drinking as much coffee as Lorelai. :)

I still can never stop feeling like they're meant to be. And while I don't agree with ASP on all that much, I do love how the thing she singled out about them in the above quote is I know many here disagree, but that sums it up for me. I just believed that they instinctively connected and got each other more than either ever did or could with anyone else. In case anyone else here still ships them and happens to be on Tumblr: https://www.tumblr.com/blog/literati-turn-right Your five favorite Literati episodes in order? I would pick Lorelai's Graduation Day, LMHYBRO, Teach Me Tonight, Let the Games Begin and, for some reason, The Real Paul Anka, but it changes every time I watch the show!

Get ready to hate me, but I still and forever "ship" Rory and Jess. I know all the reasons I shouldn't, most of which are related to how troubled Jess used to be in the past and how problematic Rory turned out to be later on, but the people and relationships I'm drawn to both in fiction and real life often defy rational explanation :) Like a lot of people, I see a massive amount of chemistry between them, some of which might be attributed to Alexis and Milo being in love in real life during some of their time together on the show, but for me it's more than a purely physical connection. I just feel like they have this natural connection and understanding that neither has with anyone else. When I watch Rory and Jess, I just can't shake that sense that they're meant to be. It's more of a feeling and instinct than an intellectual, logical conclusion! I'm guessing a similar feeling keeps a lot of fans shipping LL despite much of what did and didn't happen on screen. But that's just a guess, since another unpopular opinion is that I never shipped LL, not even back when they were friends and seemed to like each other and connect better than they did after they started dating. Although after reading this thread, I was surprised to see that indifference or dislike towards the LL romance seems a lot less popular than it used to be. I agree that Luke and Lorelai were both more enjoyable and likable apart than together. After watching the revival, I jokingly asked another GG fan and attorney whether some of us could start a class action suit to sue ASP for the deliberate infliction of emotional distress. Even after that debacle, though, I still have some residual affection for Rory. Not as much as I used to, but some. Like a lot of us here, I was the kind of introverted, bookish teenager who cared more reading, learning and spending time alone with the very few people I was close to than what most other young TV females on TV seemed to focus on. Even as an adult who's now on the wrong side of 40, that description still fits me pretty well! I connected with Rory from the first episode, and I even related to some of her not very appealing but somewhat realistic changes and questionable choices in the middle to late seasons. Even at her worst in seasons 5, 6 and the revival, I still partially see the young woman I once really cared about. I'm like 99% of Gilmore Girls characters - mysteriously brainwashed into always perceiving Rory as a better person than she is in reality. :) Even now, I don't see Jess as having suddenly become unrealistically perfect (to me, he's still very...Jess, just grown up and a little more settled and stable and less inclined to lash out angrily at the world around him, as many troubled kids with unstable home lives eventually do) and I don't see Rory as too irredeemable to eventually get it together. And so even now, I still stubbornly "ship" them despite Rory seeming to view Jess purely platonically in the revival, not to mention being an utter mess. I don't even usually like the brooding leather-clad"bad boy" who disdains everything mainstream, but even though I did wantito muzzle him for stretches of seasons 2 and 3, Jess is the exception to that rule. (I shipped them even then, but I felt guiltier about it than I did after seeing him in Season 6) I don't think I'd want to be with someone like him, but I do still think he's right for Rory. Why? Because...I just do. Shipping turns me into a partially deluded masochist. :) If we did sue ASP for traumatizing some of us with that revival, I could finally afford the help that I clearly need. I recently rewatched parts of S6 (another sign of that masochism I mentioned!), and I came to the conclusion that ASP had no plan whatsoever for Rory and Logan. The writing gave me the impression that she never knew what she wated his or their arc to be or even how much longer she wanted Logan to be on the show. Some episodes she wrote them as if we were supposed to root for them. Then, without any apparent reason, she'd write them in a way that makes me think she thought they were a doomed train wreck and that we, the audience, were supposed to think so too. Part of me is still surprised she put them together again after LMHYBRO which even my very Logan loving friend thought was ASP putting a nail in Rory/Logan's coffin, and that was even before the bridesmaid embarrassment. Anyway, I'm definitely not trying to ignite any sort of Logan vs Jess battle because I'm too old and emotionally fragile for that :) And also because I really do see attributes and problematic aspects of both those ships, so it's just a question of preference. I'm just saying in what is becoming a very unnecessarily long way that after watching parts of season 6 again and realizing that nearly all of Logan showing more consistent growth and maturity came in season 7, I wasn't as surprised by how ASP wrote them in the revival. Revival Logan seemed at least somewhat consistent with who ASP thought he was all along, someone adventurous, charming and alluring but not someone with real substance and integrity. Just like Christopher, and heaven knows ASP likes her mother/daughter parallels. I'm not saying viewers should view Logan that way, just that ASP seemed to. And it's one of the few things I think I agree with her on, but that's just my own opinion. As for her ignoring S7 as it suited her, though, it's one of a few things that make me think ASP isn't any more mature than her "heroine," Lorelai. I'm so sorry this ended up so long! I didn't know I had so many thoughts until I started typing them. I wanted to agree with those who feel that Gilmore Girls is still magic. Objectively, I dislike many aspects of it. There's no other show where I could dislike at least 60-70% of the characters and relationships (and that's a generous estimate!) but would still consider that show all time favorite. But like deaja and others said, somehow these individual and often problematic parts add up to a much greater whole than they logically should, a show that's still a huge source of joy, humor, and comfort to me and is full of clever dialogue that I've made the mistake of trying to quote to people who never watched Gilmore Girls. I'm still glad I found the show and found a place like this to talk about it. It's just that there's this enormous gap between what I objectively think of the show and how warm and fuzzy it still makes me feel!

Such an awesome diversity of opinions here! I definitely have enough unpopular opinions to bring to this party :) I still love Phoebe, even in middle and late seasons. Paige and Phoebe are my two favorite sisters, which seems quite unpopular. I'm the oldest child like Prue and am introverted and a bit of a neurotic like Piper, but for some reason it's always been Paige and Phoebe who really grab me. I really love Phoebe/Coop! I took a feeble stab at explaining why in the Surveys thread, but since these things often come down to "I don't now, it defies explanation, I just love them and could see why they love each other," I did a lousy job :) I don't hate S8 (though like almost everyone else, I do hate Christy and Billie!) Most of S1 feels really clunky to me. I love S6 even though I can understand why a lot of fans don't. I've always been indifferent to Piper/Leo, even before the writers cranked up the angst and contrived separations. I think I agree with the person who said that it might have been nice to see Piper with someone more lively. I'm generally indifferent to Andy/Prue and Phoebe/Cole too. I honestly had no idea before coming here that others also disliked Piper running a nightclub. Like some of you noted, it felt out of character for her. And, selfishly speaking, I didn't really enjoy having to see that club and listen to the music they played there for seven seasons :) Now you whippersnappers need to get off my lawn. (Yes, I'm old, but I'm one of those people who disliked nightclubs even when I was young!) Since--unlike her sisters--Piper always hated every aspect of having to be a witch, it would have been nice to see her derive some real pleasure from her job outside of being a Charmed One. Her complaining and general discontent did become montonous at times, so it would have been great to contrast that with a setting where she consistently thrived and we as the audience could see the happier sides of her character more often. (Not that anyone is always happy at work!) I don't know why I didn't warm up as much to Prue. Maybe it's because I saw the middle seasons first, so by the time I circled back around to S1, I knew Prue was going to die and might not have wanted to get too attached. I think it might also be that Shannen D. is an actress I see as a great fit for Mean Girl types. It's just something about her delivery and the way she carries herself. I like her acting overall but her characters just don't elicit much affection from me for some reason. I recall feeling the same way about 90210's Brends Walsh :) Prue was not written to be a warm and fuzzy type anyway, so I don't mean to sound like I'm blaming Shannen's acting skills for why I didn't love Prue, but the character just didn't quite click with me even though she's the sort of strong, empowered woman I usually want to see more of. One more: I belong to the shameful society of Charmed fans who also really enjoy The Power of Three Blondes. I think there are now at least two or three of us!

Another old Charmed fan but brand new PTV user who's extremely happy to find other people who love this show! Favorite sisters in order: Paige, Phoebe, Piper, Prue. I never realized until now that I love them in reverse birth order! I love them all, though naturally all of them occasionally annoy me too. :) Seasons: 4, 5, 6, 3, 2, 8, 1, 7 I first became hooked in the middle seasons, and those are still the ones I love the most. I also ranked Season 8 higher than most did because even though I agree that Christy and Billie are the worst ideas the show ever had, I like other aspects of the season, love Phoebe/Coop and Paige/Henry, and will join those who say they still sob like a baby while watching or even thinkng about the finale! Favorite romances: Phoebe/Coop. Now if only I could justify why! I like that they're both warm, open, loving, and adventurous optimists. You know how sometimes you'll see a couple on TV or (less often!) in real life and just think "I really see and even feel the connection there, they somehow just belong together" even when few others see it too? That sums up how I feel about Phoebe and Coop despite how relatively little time we got with them. Second place: Paige/Henry. Least favorite romances: Phoebe/Jason, Paige/Kyle, Prue/Jack I'm somewhere in the middle and mostly indifferent to the relationships we saw the most of: Piper/Leo, Phoebe/Cole and Prue/Andy Favorite sibling relationship: Phoebe/Paige, and not just because they're my two favorite sisters. I love how readily and warmly Phoebe accepted Paige and how you can tell they're sisters by the many similar traits and tendencies they both have while also having a few interesting differences as well. I also loved Prue/Phoebe. I saved the most important for last: Least favorite hairstyles: Phoebe in S6, Phoebe for the last half of S4, Phoebe's blonde hair in S3 (poor Phoebe! It's hard to make Alyssa Milano anything less than gorgeous, but the stylists sometimes seemed to try their hardtes to do so!), Prue's really short hair in S1, Phoebe's hair for most of S1, Paige as a blonde/strawberry blonde I hope we can think of more questions because these are a lot of fun to answer!