Independent George
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Posts posted by Independent George
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Interesting. That wasn't my understanding of the scene, more like there are different kinds of WW.
Yeah - I interpreted the one turning the baby as a White Walker priest or officer. His head bumps even looked like a crown, though I don't know that's what it was. We know that there's some form of organization or hierarchy in the books, but (if this comes from GRRM) this adds quite a bit more info.
My theory was that the White Walkers were created by the Children of the Forest sometime after the sundering of Dorne. They were meant as a weapon against the First Men, but somehow escaped their control before the peace was finally signed at the Isle of faces.
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I thought this was actually a pretty good departure, too. I don't like the idea of Jon knowing he's beyond the wall (and that Rickon is alive), because it changes a lot of his motivations later on (such as when Stannis offers him Winterfell... if they even keep that now), but it adds quite a bit of dynamism to Bran's storyline.
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I know why they did it, but I find it hilarious that 'Kill the Masters' was written in English. Er, the Common Tongue. A part of me hopes we see a Westerosi Eunt Domus during Dany's reign in Meereen.
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I didn't realize the alternative to uncharacteristic eloquence was grunts and gestures. Davos is a low-born from flea bottom whose illiteracy is a direct reflection of the socio-economic status he has had for most of his life. That bit of dialog was largely out of character for someone like that. It has nothing to do with intelligence or complexity of thought, and everything to do with vocabulary and linguistic sophistication.
Language has been a marker of status for ages, in real life and on the show. There was an amusing exchange between Tyrion and Bronn on this very matter right before the battle of the Blackwater ("big words for a sell-sword! -- I've bene hanging with fancy people"). No part of what I am saying is controversial.
He's also been elevated to a knight and Stannis' best friend for 17 years. And even before he was elevated, he was a successful smuggler whose primary contacts were wealthy Lords and merchants trying to avoid taxes. That's actually a small part of his point - a smuggler's life is quite different from a pirate even if they are both criminals and they work hand-in-hand from time to time. He's been hanging around fancy folk for decades. Why is it so surprising that he can speak well? Part of a smuggler's skill set is the ability to pass as a legit merchant.
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Let's try a simple litmus test:
If you were on a jury, and you watched that scene play out, are you going to say Cersei consented? If that was your wife, and you saw that scene on tape, are you going angrily demand to know how she could cheat on you like that, or are you going to hug her and try and help her as best you can?
There are no exigent circumstances. Pushing Bran out the window was an evil act, with an easy to comprehend motive: self preservation. It's a desperate act, but it's also a conscious one by someone who comprehends the morality and consequences of his actions.
Rape is different - it does reflect the underlying pathology of the perpetrator. Rape makes Jaime a sociopath who sees absolutely nothing wrong with what he did.
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"Your father lacks an appreciation of the finer points of bad behavior" and "You tend not to be overly concerned that that kind of distinction" - Davos -- who couldn't read until recently and can barely write -- must be the most eloquent smuggler this side of the narrow sea. Sloppy, like the rest of the episode, which seems to have been written with no concern for consistency with the characters. One of the weakest episodes to date.
You're conflating literacy with intelligence. Being illiterate doesn't prevent a man from being able to speak well or communicate complex thoughts. Davos was a successful smuggler on two continents for decades before being elevated by Stannis. He's intelligent enough to evade capture, navigate treacherous waters, and maintain good relations with his various clients to stay ahead of pursuing authorities. Why would you expect him to communicate via grunts and gestures just because he can't read and write?
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I feel like GRRM set out intending to write a much shorter series and then due to popularity or whatever stretched the story out. I expect he didn't have much planned for her other than coming to KL to try to take her throne, but now he's not ready to do that yet so we get Meeren.
It's all about the five-year gap.
Most of FFC/DWD wasn't supposed to exist - the fourth book was supposed to pick up five years later, with Bran, Arya, and Sansa having completed their respective internships, and the storylines starting to converge. Since GRRM originally planned to skip over most of what happened in that period, he didn't have a clear plan on the particulars. So once the five-year gap was nixed, he had to start from scratch and fill in a lot of details without any of the planning that went into the first three volumes. He's admitted that he wrote himself into a corner with Dany's storyline (the 'Meereenese Knot'), and much of the delay in FFC/DWD was his attempt to extricate himself from it.
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And, the Onion A/V Club has an entire essay devoted to the rape scene.
Rape of Thrones: Why are the Game Of Thrones showrunners rewriting the books into misogyny?
Sunday night’s episode of Game Of Thrones took an even darker turn than usual: Jaime Lannister, who has transitioned from one of the story’s villains to one of its heroes, takes the opportunity of his son’s death to rape his sister and lover, Cersei—in the Westerosi equivalent of a church, while Joffrey’s corpse is laid out on the slab. It’s hyperbolically awful—a violation of Cersei’s agency, a violation of the sanctity of the grand sept, a violation of the reverence that ought to be provided to a corpse.-
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Cersei's consent was dubious in the books but I thought the show made it worse. In the books Jaime has consistently been anti-rape: he wants to stop Aerys when he violently rapes Rhaella, he rescues Brienne and Pia, and later grills the boyfriend of the latter to make sure he won't hurt her or do anything she doesn't want to do.
I'd forgotten about this, and you're absolutely right - this makes the show far, far worse.
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I actually didn't find that change to be particularly drastic. In the book, she initially tells him "no" and tries to fight him off, but it's kind of minimized because it's from Jaime's perspective, and he thinks she's just trying to make him work for it or something.
The entire description is quoted in the episode thread:
“Hurry,” she was whispering now, “quickly, quickly, now, do it now, do me now. Jaime Jaime Jaime.” Her hands helped guide him. “Yes,” Cersei said as he thrust, “my brother, sweet brother, yes, like that, yes, I have you, you’re home now, you’re home now, you’re home.”That's pretty dramatically different from "Stop, this is wrong.".
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I almost forgot: who else started giggling uncontrollably when Shireen said "Ka-nig-it"?
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Ok, in other news...
There were some great scenes tonight. Tywin/Tommen was brilliant, as was Tyrion/Pod, Davos/Shireen, Olenna/Margaery, Arya/Hound, Sam/Gilly. Jon is way more entertaining now that he's not moping about.
It would have been more believable if everyone had forgotten about Sansa in the confusion instead of having them immediately look for her, while she's still at the crime scene. It's more dramatic this way, but kind of ridiculous.
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Pod and Tyrion was beautiful.
The more I think about Jaime/Cersei, the angrier I get. It completely changes the dynamics of their relationship. Instead of being a deconstruction of the epic, star-crossed lovers (where the only truly romantic relationship in the story is Jaime/Cersei), now it looks like:
1. The relationship probably began with Jaime raping Cersei when they were still children.
2. Jaime is now a lifelong abuser of his sister, and her 'consent' is really just Stockholm syndrome
3. Her monologue in Blackwater about how people treated Jaime differently now sounds like it's about people turning a blind eye to his abuse.
This was probably unintentional, because Alex Graves apparently thinks "Stop, this is wrong" is pillow talk.
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This is also totally doesn't involve rape and isn't the least bit creepy at all:
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So Alan Sepinwall had a breif interview with Alan Graves mostly about The last episode but this is what he had to say on the sept scene
Which to me says someone needs to talk to Mr Graves because that is NOT the final impression of the scene. I never got the impression she consents at any point in the scene . it's going to be interesting to see if there is any backlash.
If Mr Graves honestly believes that was consensual at the end, somebody needs to start investigating him to find out if anyone's ever filed charges against him in the past. She was saying "stop, it's not right" up until the moment they cut away.
It's like the "The Nightman Cometh" episode of It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia, where Charlie keeps insisting that it's not a rape scene between the Nightman and the Boy.
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OK, I liked the Show!Davos change from the book. Him and Stannis as well as his relationship with Shireen. Giving him an Iron Bank arc for financing, seems a good idea.
I also loved the Tywin & Oberyn exchange. The fact that Tywin recognizes Dorne as a power to be wary of is huge IMO. Through him one learns without heavy exposition about Oberyn's training at the Citadel, about how the Targs could not conquer Dorne even with dragons on their side. They portray the Martells very well through limited screen time, if you ask me. That's a good change for me.
Having Davos go to the Iron Bank is a great idea, except the timeline since S3 now makes no sense whatsoever. S3 ended with Mel saying they needed to sail North right away to assist the Night's Watch. Now, they're sitting around doing nothing for three episodes.
The Oberyn/Tywin scene was great (as was the Tywin/Tommen scene), but the sexposition again gets in the way of the narrative. There's a lot more to Oberyn than just drunken orgies (I'm glad they got the Citadel in at least), but of course that's what they focus on. Because HBO!
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So... Jaime and Cercei in the Sept with Joffrey's body had a bit of a rapey feel to it. It was gross in the book, but they somehow made it worse.
There was nothing "rapey" about it. It was flat-out rape. WTF were they thinking? Or do D&D honestly not think that was rape?
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Oh God, why did they change Jaime & Cersei's scene into a rape? It was squicky enough as it was originally written; what point did this serve? Did they think Jaime became too sympathetic after last season, and so they needed to make him a rapist as well?
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From my S4E1 re-watch:
OBERYN: You think your gold, your lions, and your gold lions make you better than everyone. Can I tell you a secret? You're not a golden lion. You're just Hodor.
SHAE: Hodor?
SANSA: No, thank you.
SHAE: You love Hodor!JON: I was jealous of Rob my whole life. The way my father looked at him? I wanted. He was better than me at everything. Fighting and hunting and riding... and Hodor. Gods Hodor loved him. I wanted to hate him, but I never could.
HOUND: What the f*ck's a Hodor?
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Kind of self-explanatory. This is a favorite pastime on the Westeros forums, and I thought I'd bring it here. The game has only one rule here: NO SPOILERS. Show quotes only, please.
CERSEI: And when I finally saw him on our wedding day, in the Sept of Baelor, lean and fierce and black-bearded, it was the happiest moment of my life. And that night he crawled on top of me stinking of wine, and did what he did, what little he could do, and whispered in my ear, "Hodor."
JAQEN: To be a dancing master is a special thing. But to be Hodor? That is something else entirely.
DROGO: Hodor.
DANY: Do you know the common tongue?
DROGO: Hodor.
DANY: Is that the only word that you know?
DROGO: Hodor.EDDARD: Tell me Varys... Whom do you truly serve?
VARYS: Hodor. Someone must.JAIME: There are no men like me. Only Hodor.
JON: It's just... I always wanted to be a Ranger.
SAM: I always wanted to be Hodor.SYRIO: And what do we say to the God of Death?
ARYA: Hodor.ROBERT: You ever f---ed Hodor?
RENLY: Once, I think.
ROBERT: You think? I think you'd remember. Back in our day, you weren't a real man until you'd f---ed one girl from each of the seven kingdoms, and Hodor. We used to call it 'making the eight'.LITTLEFINGER: Do you want to be a queen?
MARGAERY: No. I want to be Hodor.BRAN: I'd rather be Hodor.
ROBB: Don't say that. Don't ever say that!
BRAN. I'd rather be Hodor.-
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I've set up an index to the Unsullied discussion, both here at PTV and the old thread at TWOP. I don't know how much longer the TWOP forum will be online, but I thought this might be a fun trip down memory lane while it's still available.
For the PTV index, the first link (before the "//") goes to the speculation thread (the first post after the episode airs), and the second one to the appropriate episode thread.
PTV Unsullied Index (Seasons 4+)
Episode 4-01: Two Swords // Episode Thread
Episode 4-02: The Lion and the Rose // Episode Thread
Episode 4-03: Breaker of Chains // Episode ThreadEpisode 4-04: Oathkeeper // Episode Thread
Episode 4-05: First of His Name // Episode Thread
Episode 4-06: The Laws of Gods and Men // Episode Thread
Episode 4-07: Mockingbird // Episode Thread
Episode 4-08: The Mountain And The Viper // Episode Thread
TWOP Episode Discussion Index (Seasons 1-3) NO LONGER AVAILABLE SADLY.
SpoilerSpoilerEpisode 1-02: The Kingsroad
Episode 1-03: Lord Snow
Episode 1-04: Cripples, Bastards, and Broken Things
Episode 1-05: The Wolf and the Lion
Episode 1-06: A Golden Grown
Episode 1-07: You Win or You Die
Episode 1-08: The Pointy End
Episode 1-09: Baelor
Episode 1-10: Fire and BloodEpisode 2-01: The North Remembers
Episode 2-02: The Night Lands
Episode 2-03: What is Dead May Never Die
Episode 2-04: Garden of Bones
Episode 2-05: The Ghost of Harrenhal
Episode 2-06: The Old Gods and the New
Episode 2-07: A Man Without Honor
Episode 2-08: The Prince of Winterfell
Episode 2-09: Blackwater
Episode 2-10: Valar MorghulisEpisode 3-01: Valar Dohaeris
Episode 3-02: Dark Wings, Dark Words
Episode 3-03: Walk of Punishment
Episode 3-04: And Now My Watch Is Ended
Episode 3-05: Kissed By Fire
Episode 3-06: The Climb
Episode 3-07: The Bear and the Maiden Fair
Episode 3-08: Second Sons
Episode 3-09: The Rains of Castamere
Episode 3-10: Mysa-
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I wonder how he has time to read all he does......doesn't seem like the reading type
Fifteen years of prep school. Or however many years the usual number is.
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I lost count of how many people watched Joffrey's behaviour at the wedding with utter disgust. Whoever had the gumption to actually murder that little shit deserves all the gold. ALL OF IT.
And a chicken! Two chickens, even!
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Oh, I know I'm going to miss the golden shitnugget. This is the death that really changes the show, imo. What do we do without our favorite psychopath? Hating Ramsay is just not the same fun.
The interesting thing about tonight's episode is that Ramsay is basically Joffrey all grown up, and Roose is basically playing Tywin's role relative to him.
S04.E04: Oathkeeper
in Game Of Thrones
But it would make sense if it began with a single white walker who was barely self-aware and spent, say, the first couple thousand years gaining sentience and understanding his powers, then multiplying, and then building an army of wights.