Partly
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Posts posted by Partly
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18 minutes ago, rue721 said:
Do you think that even Sam himself bought the idea that he was drinking the demon blood for the greater good?
I'm sure it's what he believed the first time he did it. Back when Dean was dead and he was left alone. Then, like every addiction, it takes hold and such justifications and denials are part of the sickness. With Sam, since demon blood did actually allow him to save people, that justification was even easier to assert.
24 minutes ago, rue721 said:and kept him breaking seals left and right..
Sam only broke one seal: the last one when he killed Lilith. Or am I misremembering?
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I find the whole introduction of Mary-as-Hunter (especially if she's hunting while married) into the mix most interesting due to its effect on the character of John -- or rather, how John is viewed. For example, in Dark side of the Moon we discover that John moved out of the house for a couple of days and Dean says that their parents marriage "wasn't perfect until after she died". Since we knew John to be a flawed character, especially where family is concerned, it was assumed that John did something stupid and caused the rift. Sam even tells Dean "I just never realized how long you’ve been cleaning up Dad’s messes."
But Mary had a lot of MAJOR secrets she was holding. She was the first of their family to start with the "make a deal with the devil to save someone you love" trend. She couldn't tell the truth about what happened with her parents or how she brought John back. And if she was hunting while married, there was another MASSIVE secret -- lying to John about what she did, hiding her behaviors -- that would have caused problems. Sure she was keeping her family safe, she was "saving people, killing things", she had valid reasons for her choices, but it really changes the perceived dynamic between Mary and John.
Personally, I LOVE this opportunity. It's so much like real life, when you find out things you never knew about your parents that totally reshapes your childhood-based view of them. John is such a complicated character, such a mix of heroic and despicable traits that it's difficult to paint him in just one light. Mary has always been a memory, a construct, a trope that was used by good and evil forces alike, this is an opportunity to make her as nuanced as John is and that can only be good for the continuing characterization of the boys.
As always with this show, there is no obvious right or wrong actions available to the characters, there is only choices and consequences.
I adore that.
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16 minutes ago, catrox14 said:
Like I keep thinking, why the fuck do that to John and the boys and then just almost take it back yet not. I wish I could articulate better what I mean.
True. But this is Amara we're talking about. Even if she would have had the power to rewrite all that history -- which would in effect erase her own release from the mark, I doubt she has the ability to understand the difference between bringing Mary back and never having her die.
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34 minutes ago, companionenvy said:
There's really no good way to reconcile Mary's hunting background with her behavior in the Pilot,
I have no problem with her behavior in the pilot, even for a trained hunter. She's asleep until the baby monitor wakes her up, she sees someone whom she assumes is John (no reason to think otherwise) in with Sam. Yes, there is one flickering light but that steadies when she taps it. When she goes down and sees John in front of the TV she understands what's happening and runs back up. It would be unreasonable to think that there was never any naturally occurring flickering lights in the house. And once she realized that it wasn't John with Sammy, running back immediately would be instinctual and panic driven. Heading off for weapons or being able to fight the Azazel bare handed would be the type of behavior I would have problem with. Especially since we've been told that Dean and Mary are alike, Dean is always rush-in-head-first when faced with that type of situation. Dean's done things like that himself.
29 minutes ago, catrox14 said:It's changing the entire basis of the show.
I don't see how this changes the basis of the show. Everything happened the way it did. John still lost his wife and dove into the deep end of hunting to avenge her. Dean still became the caretaker and didn't talk for a year. Sam still grew up without a mother. They all have that history and having her return now changes none of that. She died. She was gone for all of their lives. That doesn't change with her return.
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The whole God/Amara ending is perfect for a reset, of sorts. It would be easy to step away or at least temper the importantnce of angels and demons -- while leaving Crowley, Cas and Lucifer untouched, more or less. It could allow for more earth/human based stories. At least that's my hope because I love the MOTW stories, the ones that deal with small town America.
I understand the need to have more than two characters on the show because the Dean-and-Sam only show makes it much to hard on the actors. Cas and Crowley are good expansions and I like the idea that they can function separately from the Boys, if only because they become real characters then and not just filler.
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That said, I didn't care for the character dissonance that it created either-and likely all because Carver just had to let us know that Bob Seger is his fave. Showrunner ego again. Love it or hate it, I guess we're never going to get away from it no matter how many times they change them up-not on this show. Or so it seems to me.
This is why I don't care what the show runners say. All of television is as far from "pure art" as you can get; it's really just an amalgamation of what everyone involved thinks BUT the only opinion that matters is what I see on the screen.
I try very hard not to let other people's interpretation of the show alter how I see it -- that includes the actors, writers and the show runners. Until it's on the screen as an absolute statement (as in Dean says: Metal sucks, man!) I just don't care. Their intention doesn't matter, only the results do.
(And, yes, I do realize how far off the rails I am from how most people think about the show.)
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I think My Mileage Varies because I am a non-literal person. For example, when if someone would say "I'll be over with a couple of friends" I wouldn't be surprised if they showed up with four instead of two.
So when Sam goes "Is everything a Bob Seger song to you?" and Dean says "Yes." I don't take that as a repudiation of anything that happened before or an indication of how things will be from this point on. Rather, it's just a reaction for how things are going at the moment. I saw no real importance on the choice of song or artist except that it fit the moment. Dean would seize that moment and rib Sam for all it's worth.
But like I said, I'm not literal. And I love writing backstory in my head. So when the boys were singing the song with personalized lyrics it made so much sense to me because I could see them doing that all the time as kids. I love the concept of Dean choosing some artist or group (different ones for different situations) and quoting the lyrics at "Sammy" just to get a rise out of him. And I will lay you odds that Dean made up lyrics to songs in order to fit their lives.
On a more personal note: I don't want any pod people anymore. I don't want soulless or possessed or "marked" up. I want Dean and Sam to be Dean and Sam. I want their choices to be their choices and not caused by "others". So I'm probably not looking at the characters the same way, either, because I don't want pod!Anybody.
It's all good, though, because it's boring when we all think alike.
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I agree. Angel politics on this show is dull.
I would be happy to do away with both the Heaven and Hell politics. They are opposite sides of the same boring coin. The only time I find them interesting is when they are interacting with the boys.
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I wasn't going to post anything because, well, WEDNESDAY. But I have some thinky thoughts on this ep...
I don't find it odd at all that Dean's musical base (what he likes, what he has tapes of and what he quotes) extends beyond Zeppelin or the metal-genres. Dean has always been much more than his appearance will lead people to believe. Even Sam, after all the years spent with Dean, is occasionally surprised by what Dean knows. And not because Sam thinks Dean is stupid, because he doesn't, but rather because what Dean says isn't something that you would think Dean would know. How often in the series have we heard Dean say "I read!", in defense of knowing something that surprised other people? But it's not just what he reads. It's watching things like Dr. Sexy, MD. It's Dean watching a Telanovela. It's Dean knowing what is in the Bible and what isn't. It's Dean making a EMF detector out of a Walkman. It wouldn't surprise me at all if Dean knew how to polka, could quote a Conway Twitter song or read all the Harry Potter books.
It's Dean. He does whatever he wants and doesn't care whether he, by stereotype, should or shouldn't.
I thought the jerk/bitch moment was cringe-worthy because of it's obvious placement for obvious fan-servicing reasons.
I saw this differently. What I saw was the very start of the jerk/bitch moment. See, years ago, when Dean tucked Sammy in bed he'd always say "love you". Because that's what little kids (especially little boys who have lost so much and care so much) say. But then, as Sammy got older and wanted to be Sam and to stop all that mushy stuff (and I'm sure it was Sam who started it), they couldn't say "love you" anymore. It's a guy thing. So, one night, when Dean was making "Sam" go to bed, Sam cut off Dean's "love you" with a "Night, Jerk" and Dean responded "Night, Bitch". They stared at each other for a second and then when to sleep, because they both knew what they meant and now they could say it whenever they wanted to. That moment was perfect because it probably happened the first time in that very car.
I love how they both sang the modified lyrics to Night Moves to make it fit their lives. I come from a family who does that all the time. There are certain songs that I can no long sing the way they are written. I also think that Dean called Sam "Samuel" because I'm sure that once Sam did first lose his virginity, Dean was all "Look at how little Sammy has grown up, let's call him Samuel!". A perfect way to continually tease Sam without anyone actually knowing what it meant. Kinda a jerk/bitch moment. And I would bet everything I have that Sam lost his virginity in the back of the car.
Sam's comment at the end about already being home: I don't think he meant the car, per se. Rather, I believe he meant him and Dean, fighting the good fight, saving people, working together and trusting that the other would work to the same goal. That's home. As it should be.
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Good grief! A girl spends the day working around the farm and misses out on all the cool talk!
So... what vibe did you get with the pretty girl? I'm curious because I want to eschew this jaded POV of mine and would be happy to adopt yours!
My non-jaded POV: Dean is looking for Cas, he knows the general area but ain't got a clue where he is really. How best to search for someone when you are in the middle of a concrete jungle and you can't read track? Ask someone! The place is empty but not completely deserted. A girl (and yes, a pretty girl -- because she's a friggin' actress!) approaches, Dean goes "Hey". Now, is this the best thing to say? Maybe not, but there's really no better way to start out. The "Can you help me, I'm looking for my lost puppy" line isn't going to win anyone over even if you exchange "friend" for "puppy".
Now, when she blows him off with a "Get a life", does he think that there used to be a time when he could have gotten her to stop. Possibly. But I know he wasn't hitting on her because way back in season 6 when Soulless Sam was trying to figure out exactly when he could be sleeping around when someone he cares about is missing, Dean says not until you get them back. He's very firm about this. So I know that Dean would never be looking to pick someone up when Cas is missing. It's not who Dean is.
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NO HOMO means when they insert an obvious "this character is not gay" moment before they have a moment that could look like a potential romance between (usually) men. In this case, the somewhat random pretty blond getting a "hey" out of Dean during the middle of a rescue mission for Cas. JUST to remind us that Dean is NOT GAY (or BI). In caps because it's seems pretty obvious that there was no plot point there -- just a reminder that any sign of tenderness that Dean shows Cas does not mean they are going to have romantic Destiel.
Personally I find it infuriating. It dumbs Dean down to "horn dog".
It may be my lack of hanging out on SPN tumblr/twitter sites, but I didn't get this vibe at all for that scene. Quite honestly, if the writers were really "afraid" of having the fans see Destiel in the show, they would massively change how they write the character interaction between them rather than throw in women that Dean talks to.
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In that situation, MoC!Dean went way overboard, whaling on Evil!Charlie far beyond the point where it was needed. That was what Dean was feeling guilty about, and why whole!Charlie reassured him. Because it was the Mark that made him do it. Like Dean reassured Cas that it was the attack-dog spell that made him beat up on Dean.
This was my interpretation. In Dean's mind, telling Cas that "Besides, I had it coming" is another way of absolving Cas of wrongdoing. It's probably a bad sign that I can understand that line of thinking.
And thanks for the "whaling on/waling on" note -- I never use it because I never know what's right. Good to know that I'll only be wrong if I "wail on" someone!
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To me the only time it's played as a joke is when it's Sam being hit on (see Ask Jeeves and Red Sky at Morning) because he is so uncomfortable being flirted with by ANYONE.
Sam and Dean are very different in these situations, and the writers have set up different ways of looking a them... Most of the time Sam is placed in these uncomfortable sexual situations in a humorous/non-threatening way, whereas Dean's usually tends to be more threatening and rarely funny. As a friend said in a conversation with me, "monsters and humans have attacked- or tried to- Dean with sexual intentions. From almost getting roofied at a club in NYC when he was a teenager (story told to Cas) to Boris the vampire to Abbadon to Crowley". Even if it's not the main intent, there is often a sexually threatening undercurrent with Dean. There is less of that with Sam. It would be interesting to see how Dean deals with it when it's not creepy.
Ruby of course was a different story because she was using him.
I'm not sure how Ruby intending to use him makes a difference. I mean, when Meg made moves on him she was intending to use him, too, it didn't make her effective. I think the difference came from the fact that Sam was intending to use Ruby. He wanted to use Ruby to get the power needed to kill Lilith -- he didn't foresee the addiction and the fact that would blind him to Ruby machinations. But then, no one foresees addiction or no one would ever become addicted. (I'm looking at you, Dean, and the MoC).
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I'm not into victim blaming and in a perfect world women would be just as safe as a man wandering around a deserted alley at night (that is to say, not very), but come on. This woman was absolutely oblivious to her surroundings in a rabbit warren of dark, secluded alleys and empty warehouses. She should have been nervous even before she heard Cas.
I'm a terrible poster child for "street smarts" I suppose, and I've never lived in a "big city" but a spent a great deal of my life in Madison, WI which is about twice the size of Topeka (where Cas was) and I've walked down streets/alleyways like those. Most of them are only a block or two off of populated area and aren't a haven for criminals. Since there were two women walking in the area it obviously wasn't a dangerous spot. Mileage varies, I know. For instance, I didn't think that Dean's "Hey" was an attempt to hit on/pick up/check out the girl, but an attempt at talking to someone who may have seen Cas in the area. She blew him off (understandably) and he kept looking. I mean, the first thing you do when you are looking for someone is talk to the people in the area.
I was watching the season 10 episodes with the commentary and the comment that stood out was that everything on Supernatural has a price and that price is usually paid by Dean....then a pause and a quiet "usually by torture"* and I think that's true. To Dean getting the snot beat out of him by Cas is part of the price of the whole MoC debacle.
I agree with this statement. It's a price that Dean is not only paying but one that he is willing to pay. In fact, I'd say that Dean's view that this pain, this "beat down" from Cas is penance and helps him deal with (and perhaps set aside) some of the guilt he feels, that's a good thing. When you hurt someone, even accidentally or even if you have no choice, there is still guilt over that pain you cause. You have to be able to deal with that. Quite frankly, NOT feeling guilt over things like that is a sign of psychopathy, so I'd rather have Dean be guilty than be blasé about it.
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Wait... a sexually active older women is equitable to a child molester? I'm sorry, did you all miss the whole sexual revolution concept that went around in 70s/80s? Because that sexually active older women lived though it and she recommends that you go back and check it out.
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Rowena still doesn't know about Darkness does she?
And I think she made a deal and she couldn't take Dean. Although she also is so very self-centered until Darkness causes her in problems, it won't be on her radar.
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A lot of set up and “return to normal” in this episode.
Rowena – just wants to be in charge only she goes around killing all those who would follow her. Mega Coven – HA! Smart enough to not keep the book and the codex together, but no smart enough to kill the Winchesters when she has the chance.
Although, I think it’s always easier for humans to break deals than for the supernatural to do so. Have we ever seen a supernatural creature make a “deal” and then renege on it? I know that some can twist deals to make them not quite what was expected, but still what was promised.
Also love the fact that Rowena was quick to try to leverage Dean against Sam when she found out the Dean didn’t know about the deal Sam made. Didn’t work because Dean’s not going to blame Sam for not killing Crowley or what happened to Cas. I also love the whole “Keyword: Secrets”. Heh.
Amara – so Darth Amara comes back and talks to Anakin Amara and says, “I am what you are becoming”. Darth Amara seems very sure of what’s going to happen. On the other hand Anakin Amara is learning, but we still don’t know what she’s thinking or, more importantly, if she has any free will in the matter. She knows more than Crowley is teaching her, so is the knowledge/beliefs/destiny of Darth Amara “preprogrammed” into her? I hope not, I still like this idea that Anakin Amara will have some choice over what she does. Of course, her whole “Feed me” attitude seems to be the point of her existence. So it’s a bit hard to say if she is capable of being anything but darkness/nothingness. Have to wait and see.
Love the little Angel and Demon scene. “Power to the people.” – “Well not actually PEOPLE.” I wonder if any of the rank and file Angels/Demons will see the Winchesters are the way to overcome Darkness? Probably not, but it would be interesting.
Dean and Sam working together – good to see nothing’s changed. Dean is always the bait – which is good, because it means that he’s him and not some odd version of himself. The same way he’s not willing to let Cas heal him in the end. To Dean, it’s his way of “equalizing” things. Way back in the second season when Dean beat up Sam, he offered Sam a “free shot” to make it equal. Sam didn’t take it, but to Dean it would have made it even. I” hit you, you hit me” and then it’s done. Cas healing him would made that unbalanced.
Looking forward to next week!
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I think with both of the Winchesters it comes down to the fact that, at this point, neither of them can do "normal" -- as in give up hunting and live a nine-to-five life.
Forget the the fact that they are the freakin' Winchesters and every supernatural thing out there knows that -- maybe there would be a way to keep retribution of knocking on their doors -- I doubt it, but we'll go with it.
Forget the fact that they both know too much and have seen too much to be "normal", there are a lot of people out there who know too much and seen too much but still manage to fit their broken pieces into a normal life. It can be done and both of them deserve it.
However, both of them CARE too much to walk away. Both of them know that they have the knowledge and the skills to fight the good fight. More than that both of them truly love the "saving people, hunting things" part of the gig. Sure they can do normal for a while, but it's too late for them to walk away. Frankly, I don't think that they ever could have.
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Hey! Only took a week but I finally got to watch the episode!
I rather liked it, which is odd because I really dislike the whole "possessed baby/child" concept.
Random thoughts (some of which you all may have addressed, but I haven't read the forum yet):
I like BIlly "Circle gets the square" It's a great reference that both dates her and makes her interesting. My question is if the Reapers are going rouge and she would happily throw him into "the empty", why did she tell him that he was "unclean in the Biblical sense?" I mean, that wasn't just a throw-away line, that was a clue.
And "The Empty" That's a new concept right? There was heaven and hell and purgatory. When did the reapers had the ability to know/choose where the souls went? Is this the first time this was mentioned or what that established before and I just missed it? Her threat that "nothing comes back" from The Empty - sounds like a challenge for the Winchesters, don't you think?
Love how Sam says that they have to change they they have to do things different and then immediately goes back to praying to God that he will sacrifice himself is only Dean could have a life. HAH! Gotta love that Winchester love. Both of them always willing to sacrifice for the other -- and no, I don't want them to change.
Crowley is a paradox. I hate Crowley, however, I love when he's onscreen. Mark Sheppard has done such a brilliant job bringing the character to life. The only thing that saves the whole thing is the awesomeness that is on the screen when Dean and Crowley are in scenes together. I know, catch 22, which is why Crowley is still around. However, I really hate that a villain is becoming a protagonist, because to me to goes against the whole feeling of the show. I just hope that Dean will kill him eventually - although I'd be happy enough if Amara would just snap her fingers at some point and "puff" goes Crowley. Would serve him right for thinking that he could control Darkness. See -- on screen i love Crowley, but talking about him makes me want him dead.
I like how the Angels don't understand Castiel. I'm glad that Cas didn't kill Hannah. I also think it's interesting that when most Angels get the concept of free will, they almost immediately chose to be evil. Not cool, Angels, not cool.
I also like how, as usual, Dean always wants to err on the side of caution when he's not positive that the people/creatures attacking himare evil. I mean, when Jenna is attacking him, he's more than willing to keep her alive and try to figure out what's going on. Now if Jenna would have been attacking innocents (for example, if Dean would have caught her attacking her Grandmother) then Dean would have been less hesitant to kill her (IMO). Dean has always been willing to put is own life on the line in order to try and save others, so I'm glad to see that hasn't changed with the MoC and all.
Last thought (and maybe this was all discussed in past threads): what happens to souls when they are "eaten"? Are they destroyed? Can a soul be destroyed? Are they just held in captivity, providing a endless power source? This is a mythology that hasn't been touched on.
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My guess about the baby is that it was the closest newborn human to where The Darkness emerged and so was the most susceptible.
I keep thinking (hoping) that the choice of the baby has to do with Dean having to "help" her. I find the word choices of Darkness interesting and would like it if the show would work with that.
Right now we have no idea what powers Darkness has or what she wants. We still don't know whether or not she can switch bodies and whether has control over it.
And I don't think Dean would have had the same desire to save a cat. *grin*
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Sorry posted early. See below.
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"Peaceful" implies non-violent. Whether or not Dean was focused or calm or in-control, he was never peaceful (ie not prone to violence).
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I brought up this point up thread. I took it the same way. That she can be whoever she wants to be.
Missed that! Great minds and all...
However, taking a different look at it, what if she doesn't get to choose? She said they were bound together, that they will "always help each other". What if being "bound" means that she has to be where Dean is? That she has to be where he can help her and she can help him -- of course, I'm not sure what she means by "help".
I'm also interested in finding out how she "saved" Dean. I also think it's curious that she told Dean "I haven't felt this peaceful in a long, long time." I find the use of "peaceful" intriguing. The MoC made Dean (and Cain, for that matter) anything but peaceful.
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Looking back at Darkness' conversation with Dean, she said: "No matter where I am, who I am . . . We will always help each other." Does that mean she can jump bodies? Can she just assume whatever shape she wants?
Maybe the Darkness that Dean encountered has nothing to do with little baby Armara, but just is who the Darkness is at the point. Maybe she can be whoever she needs (or wants) to be.
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Spoilers With Speculation
in Supernatural
Maybe it was marked down at St. Vinnie's and he needed a new jacket...