yorklee2

With this show anything's possible. In fact I would say it's more likely probable. They would do anything to create drama.

It's alright WANDERING SNARK. Happens to the best of us. I know I've been guilty of it for sure.

Yeah I think you're talking about Dominique and yes she was there and of course asked a question. I think she went out at like 3rd or at the most 4th episode.

So was yours Shades of Scarlet. Loved it.

You may be right but MMDV (my mileage does vary). To each his own.

Thanks vendredi3!

With all due respect I'm not trying to make this confusing. I was just trying to make sense of something that didn't make sense. And as you can see from 1992AustenLover post above she seems to have a different understanding from yours about when exactly Nick heard her new claims. That's what I was going by in my latest post although yours was my original understanding also. And if so than I don't understand why Nick when he saw that Chris or Liz wasn't going to bring it up again why he didn't. I most definitely would have. Nothing makes me angrier than someone implying something against me that isn't true. I think it's human nature that anyone would want to defend themselves. If I were in Nick's shoes and I were watching her say this backstage I would have been all, "Oh no you don't. I can't believe she just said that". If the producers would not allow me to say something during my time on the hotseat than anyone could have told by my face and demeanor that something was wrong. Although I think it's too late for that I would like to say that at the risk of beating a horse to death I wanted to state my reasons for my original post and thoughts. Suffice it to say that that whole scenario (to me) was a editing nightmare. I agree that strength comes in many forms but I never said the other women weren't strong only that in the strictest sense of the word it in my opinion would define Kristina. And on a different note, I have been wanting to ask this for a long time, could you please explain to me what YMMV means?

You must have missed my last post on this. Before 1992AustenLover revealed to me that Nick didn't get to see what the women said before he came out I didn't realize that Nick was unaware of what she had said. So his blog for People didn't make sense to me. But now it does. So my ultimate beef was with the show misleading viewers into thinking there had never been a conversation between them period. And I'm not a fan of Liz at all. I just believe in showing the whole story. I do wonder though what the other women and the audience were thinking when Liz told her original story to them about trying to contact him prior to the show (the part that Nick didn't get to hear) and then he comes out and they tape the conversation between them (that we didn't get to see). I mean they must have thought why is the show not allowing him to get to rebut her latest claim?? It's just more confirmation about how sneaky the producers are in manipulating the viewers. The only one by the strictest definition of "strong" woman on the show was Kristina. Sure she had the love of her adoptive parents but her earliest experiences with her parents had to have left a permanent scar. It will always be there and it makes it hard to trust people so you develop a wall/barrier to keep that from happening. So to put your self out there is being strong in my opinion. And remember on the haunted house date where we got the lines, "If there's a ghost in there I'll rebuke it in the name of Jesus", and then when the doll had mysteriously disappeared she said, "either there's a ghost or one of these bitches took that doll". She did have a good sense a humor for sure. After getting more confirmation of this shows editing tricks with the WTA shenanigans I'm more inclined to believe this. Plus although some think she would on further thought I don't believe Raven would have went through that little montage after the fact if she knew it wasn't true. But when she spoke the lines, "I'm very happy this morning" and "Nick is good at what he does" I think she was speaking the truth. Some believe it might have been oral instead of penetrative sex but what's the difference? It would still have been a very intimate act with all it's applied implications. If anything it would show Nick cared enough about her that he wanted her to have pleasure whether he did or not. I also think as others have said that Raven is more than aware of her competition and Nick and Vanessa's connection but she is hoping and trusting her and Nick's connection was enough. Raven can be a little uncouth. But I believe with time she will learn to tame it down and her outspokenness comes from a place of naivete and honesty. I could be duped but I don't think her words are said with malice or arrogance but with a somewhat lack of self awareness and how the world works and the producers are taking every advantage of it.

Okay I wasn't aware of any additional part where he said the leads don't get to hear what the contestants say. I was going by the quote of Nick above that TruthAboutLuv posted. In the line where he says when he watched her speak to Chris I assumed he meant backstage through monitors. But this is what's so messed up with the editing that for anyone who hasn't seen the clip I saw they would think that there was no conversation between them at all. I knew something was hokey when I first read the post and I assumed Nick was in on the deception. But if the show didn't want to use the deleted footage why would they let it get out to the public? Like I said I don't want to know how much I'm being manipulated..lol. But I can answer his question. She didn't say it to his face because she knew it was bull and if he pushed the issue she would be caught in her lie. Seriously does anybody believe anything she says at this point? She was trying to save face and for all the ones who believed her little pity party it might be enough to get her on BIP which is what she was angling for all along anyway. So she can get more exposure for all that shilling she wants to do.

I think you missed my point. We didn't see any footage of Nick and Liz talking about anything when it aired last night. I'm telling you I saw a clip where him, Liz and Chris were doing just that. So by him saying that he wished she had told him about her trying to reach him it makes it seem as though they didn't talk at all about the situation. And that's what we the viewers saw. No interaction whatsoever. But I'm saying it happened. They talked. I saw it. If he had already seen her on the monitors giving the little spiel that we did see, then why didn't he ask her when he came out about her supposedly trying to contact him. The producers obviously taped extra footage and decided not to show the bit of them interacting but unless they taped Nick's interactions with all the women first and then taped her story of trying to contact him after he left the stage then why put it out there that she failed to ask him when we weren't shown the part where they did talk when he come out on the floor. I think it's possible then that they did tape his part with the women first. They had their interaction where she failed to mention it and then after he left she then told the story and Nick watching it back didn't understand why she hadn't asked him when he was on the floor and they talked. Maybe. I don't know really which leads to my whole point that the editing has become so sloppy, bad and actually insulting to it's viewers. I know it's always been this way but it's getting out of hand now. We the viewers know it happens but we don't want it so blatantly and carelessly flaunted in our faces. Or at least I don't. This is escapism and I don't want mine flawed with anything that makes me realize how silly I am for watching this show...lol. I mean come on show can't you even give us that competently. I'm like many a heartbreak song. I know the truth but I would rather be lied too.

Ok I'm officially confused here. The producers and therefore editors need to get their shit together because they are slipping big time. I saw a clip online the other day that had a preview of the WTA. In this clip they show Nick being interviewed by Chris Harrison as he's on the hot seat and he asks him about the Liz fiasco. He gave a canned response and then Chris asks Liz if she has anything she wants to add and she said no that she had only came on to see if there was something between them and she had accomplished her goal as apparently there wasn't!?! I know what I saw so that could only mean that Nick was lying when he wrote this blog. I had completely forgotten about it until I read this above line from TRUTHABOUTLUV post and realized something didn't make sense about it. You know as much as this show is watched with it's millions of viewers you would think that the producers would be more careful about what content gets out there. Someone will spot any discrepancies. But as bad as the editing has been, especially this season, who knows maybe they don't really care anymore. I mean after they spoiled their own show we should expect anything, right?

This quote from Nick's interview is also the answer for everyone who wonders how Raven made it so far. Yes she revealed anger tendencies and too much information about her sex life but Nick appreciated her honesty. Couple that with her outgoing personality and I don't think it's really that hard to figure out how she made it as far as she did. I do think however if there was no B'ette opening to fill he would have keep Rachel for F2 and Raven would have went home as F3. But I definitely don't see Raven as cannon fodder as others have said. Cannon fodder would not have made it to the final three. I don't see the chemistry with Raven that he has with Vanessa but he seemed to have such a relaxed fun time when he was with her that if translated to the real world could make for a happy satisfying relationship. I have nothing against Vanessa. I think she's beautiful and the chemistry between her and Nick is intense but even the most accommodating and passionate of relationships can wane over time. If you factor in the very unaccommodating situation of living in different countries it's a uphill climb that would have to call for compromise and I'm not sure either would be willing to bend enough. So I hope whoever he chooses that he's happy. I happened to like all his F3 women which I don't think I've ever been able to say for either the bachelor/b'ette finales.

I feel the same way. Like you I click off all the reasons why I shouldn't like her but for some reason I still do. Her worst fault is, as you said, she speaks before she thinks. Being forthcoming can sometimes be a good thing but she's young and hopefully she will learn as she gets older to rein it in some. Because she's fun, easy to be around and not a stick in the mud. And she's been that way consistently the whole season. We never saw any drama between her and any of the women. On the contrary she got along great with them like the bit on this episode where her and Corrine are having fun with the cheese balls. We've seen other examples of this like the time she was throwing them at Kristina as she tried to catch them in her mouth. She just seems like a laid back fun loving person who would be a joy to be around. I think Nick knew this and appreciated it. And although to me her looks are quirky/pretty, for those who seem to think she looks so frightening, I think having a good outlook and infectious personality like hers makes anyone soo much prettier and I think that's what Nick saw. Point taken but we also don't know they didn't. Either she's a really good actress or that smile and joy were real. I think the latter.

Rachel's cut brought tears to my eyes. I too thought she was so genuine in the moment @MsBlueJay. Just very subdued and heartbroken. Nothing fake about it whatsoever. She really seems like she could carry a season well. Loved her at WTA when she got so cracked up over the shark costume in the audience. Nothing stuffy about her. So warm and real. I just hope she comes out of the b'ette not too damaged. No lead has every came out of this show unscathed. I'm probably in the minority but I thought Raven's happy dance through town was sort of cute. Corny but cute. Guess now we know the answer to the speculation about Nick's lack of skills. I have thought for a long time that he would pick Vanessa because I could see from night one their obvious chemistry. Their strained conversation and stalemate had me doubting a little tonight but then I remembered how this show loves to do the bait and switch. So I still think she will be F1 but Nick needs to make sure she doesn't see any footage of his time with the other women. Can you imagine the tears?

I've always believed there was a lot about the stiletto story that didn't add up and said as much after it aired. I think it was very exaggerated also what with kicking down doors and no mention of her ex or the other woman fighting back. Like she just went in there and wiped the floor up with them...lol. Highly unlikely. And I don't believe she's never had a orgasm either. She's at least pleasured herself even if she's not achieved it during sex although I have my doubts she deliberately lied about it. As I said above I think she's too ignorant to realize masturbating is a orgasm too. I don't agree about BIP though. With her naive words and actions I think she would be devoured on the show. And if she does show up I think it would then strain the limits of credibility about her naivete. Especially now that she's surely received negative feedback about her actions on this show. If she's willing to go on after all that and shows that she's not as ignorant as some of us think then yes I'll agree she has been manipulating people the whole time.

Call me crazy but I did. I wanted to see if I had heard it wrong or misinterpreted it. She did say, "I've never had a orgasm". So I stand corrected. She said it one time and the show kept repeating it for effect. But when she told Nick she said only that she hadn't with her ex. I find it extremely hard to believe that at (24?) she hasn't pleasured herself but at the same time I think giving Raven's being as @JudyObscure said, "shy in all the wrong places", meant in her mind that she didn't associate self pleasurement with orgasm. In other words I think in her ignorance she believes that the word orgasm literally only pertains to having sex so thus in her mind she had never had one. That's just the feeling I get from her. I think her whole persona from start to finish has been puzzling. On one hand she seems easy going, personable and yes spunky but then we get this backward, demure, ignorance and lack of self awareness from her. Now I believe you can have different facets to your personality but as others have thought and said is she really just trying to manipulate everyone? I'm starting to believe she has a unhealthy mix of all these points. I think she dwells too much on her ex and probably gets enjoyment out of embarrassing him but she also is genuinely kind and down to earth. Kind of like the having the, "devil on one shoulder and the angel on the other". I also think production has so played up her faults. I saw a interview online with Ashley I earlier in the season where she was asked by the hosts why was Corrine dwelling on her nanny so much. She wasn't condemning Corrine much as she said that production was at fault. She said that in her case they specifically told her to mention her virginity as much as possible. Point being that I'm sure the producers have encouraged Raven to speak her mind and be forthcoming. If she is trying to manipulate things then in her ignorance she doesn't realize that she's no match when it comes to the big guns, the ultimate manipulators.

I'm surprised he spoke out at all considering the night the stiletto episode aired the part where she tells Nick about the cheating was not shown in central Arkansas where she and the doctor live. It was replaced with extra commercials or other programming. Someone didn't want it aired and he's the most likely suspect. Which would explain why he didn't mention it in the article but I'm a little surprised he mentioned anything since I would have thought he wanted to stay out of the limelight. Must be what others have mentioned, that his ego couldn't take being labeled a bad lover. Which obviously in his mind was much worse than being a cheater. It could also mean her story about it was true and he doesn't have a legitimate comeback. I would think too that with social media and today's world of instant communication that even with the blackout of the story he couldn't keep it under wraps for long and thought it was better to at least quell the no orgasm, no ILY story. Being a man in a man's world I think his mindset was friends and colleagues wouldn't think too much of the cheating but would ridicule him for any perceived lack of lovemaking skills. He didn't want the cheating story getting out obviously but the no O, no ILY was the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back.

No I don't think it will have a happy ending either. And who knows what went on in Nick's head but I think you can be feisty and adventurous and still demure at the same time. We are allowed to have many facets to our personality. I think Raven is very curious about her sexuality she's just still taking baby steps if you will. She also implied (and confirmed in a interview with Glamour mag) that she was in love with her ex but didn't feel she could totally trust him. Hence the reason she didn't feel comfortable telling him she loved him and the reason she suspected she couldn't achieve orgasm with him. I noticed also that she never said she hadn't pleasured herself. Only that her ex wasn't able to bring her to climax. Maybe she tried to tell him and he was selfish and not receptive to it? Point is a lot of assumptions are being jumped to and maybe everything is not quite what it seems.

Funny JudyObscure but in all seriousness you might be on to something here. Logic would have anyone think he should steer clear of having sex with her since she apparently doesn't (knowingly or ignorantly?) care to share intimate details. And especially if he doesn't intend to pick her in the end. But I would think (or at least hope) that she has learned a valuable lesson from her time on this show and we won't hear anymore about it after it's all done. Sometimes unfortunately lessons are better learned the hard way.

Yes I know which episode you were talking about and I don't remember her saying that. Maybe she heard them, maybe not. She already knew he was with this woman. That 2 hour drive to his home was a long time to think about it. I think at this point her adrenaline was in overdrive and I suspect she had worked herself into a frenzy thinking about it so (if it happened the way she said) she didn't need to hear anything to want to knock that handle off the door. ETA: Not that I agree with her actions. I'm just saying that's how I perceived her thoughts and mindset.

Raven never said she could hear the woman moaning inside?? Did we watch the same episode?

Raven mentioned it when she was telling the whole cheating story. Supposedly the woman he was cheating with made the statement to her friend, who then told Raven, that she was going to, "eff that doctor." Interesting story behind that though is that after that episode aired I saw a article online that said in half the state of Arkansas that part of the episode where she tells the story was mysteriously replaced with other programming. So people in that part of the state never heard the cheating story. I thought that was very telling. Who would have the power to get something like that done? A doctor with connections possibly?..lol. I posted the link. His name was Henry, Hunter or something like that. There was even a pic of him. Better looking than Nick I'll give him that. Yeah I noticed it. I just thought she assumed/knew that he would only be taking 3 women to the fantasy suite.

I agree. I like Raven but with this new confession it's painful obvious she is very immature. I tried to give her the benefit of the doubt with the stiletto (although I still think production had a heavy hand in that) but twice now revealing things that are for private conversations and not national tv? Raven whatever you do, do not go on BIP. You will be eaten alive. I have never saw intense heat between them but I do feel Nick genuinely likes her. Because of that (and her confession) I don't see him going all the way in the FS. To me he probably looks on her now somewhat in pity much like I think he did with Corrine.

Yes they are! And your post was very accurate. As a Bachelor newbie I think you are now starting to understand and get it..lol.

Yeah I think production really ramped up that angry southern girl beats boyfriend in spunky redneck rage. If fact I think they've played up the, "spunky redneck girl" all season. And while I'm not saying Raven isn't one iota like this I do think it has been blown way out of proportion. Just like they've played up the self absorbed nanny loving rich girl in Corrine. I think climbing the grain silo and riding the atv's in the rice fields was something Raven did more so as a teenager and not something she does as much as an adult. But I can just hear production say, "let's really show America what a spunky fun loving girl you are Raven. You hit your boyfriend with a stiletto when you caught him cheating? Great we'll need all the graphic details. You ride atv's and climb grain silo's. Perfect! America will love you". They play all these stories up for effect. Which makes it fun to snark on but the reality is never as bad as it seems. Something I noticed and thought was ironic though. Raven's mother seemed so unassuming, sweet and down to earth. Nothing at all like the key giving, go confront your boyfriend mother I pictured. Corrine's mother on the other hand? I can picture her doing that perfectly.