yorklee2

Was everybody watching the same show I was? I don't understand why everyone thought it was so chopped up, inscrutable and such when it was so plain what she said. Extra footage being deleted? Maybe but I don't see how she could have been any plainer in what we did see and hear her say. And no one to my knowledge every said or insinuated that just because she's a proud Canadian it means she would never move. She did however say, when Nick asked her if there was anything she would never compromise on, yes. Nick looked surprised as if he wasn't expecting that and she says, "you want me to tell you them"? He says yes and she then says, "Sunday dinners with my family". Her words out of her mouth. I even watched it back to see if I missed something. So if she lives in Montreal full time (which obviously she does) and has every Sunday with her family how else is anyone supposed to interpret that? If she would never compromise on it then that's essentially saying Nick would have to move. So technically she never said the words,"I will never move out of Canada", but that's about as close as you can get without actually saying it.

Right except Raven never said she wouldn't move out of Arkansas as Vanessa did. And honestly I don't think she ever expected Nick to move to Arkansas. She looked to me like she was just taking things one day at a time and never tried to assume anything. I'm sure Vanessa has changed her mind, if she's the one, and realized she would have to compromise. And Nick too for that matter. Tomorrow night should be interesting.

I said that because I felt like the Montreal discussion was getting a little old and the Canadian posters were probably getting tired of hearing it and might have thought because my views on the hot tub discussion were different that it might have something to do with her being Canadian, so I wanted to make my views completely clear on that. I honestly believe that Vanessa has reconsidered the issue about moving but at the time of the hot tub discussion she felt different. I mean if she's his F1 and they mean to make it work there had to be compromise on both their parts I'm sure. So anyway glad we cleared that up.

Thanks for educating me on that. Honestly. I didn't realize that Vancouver had mostly rainy weather. I'm sorry for assuming but I did put a question mark after my statement because I wasn't sure. I worked with a guy from Vancouver but it never came up in conversation. I get that you guys up north probably get tired of the snow and cold jokes and any stereotyping that goes on. And yes I'm from the south and can relate about stereotyping believe me. ETA: I saw your second post after I posted this one so I'm glad I was correct in thinking you guys hated the stereotyping too. Guess it pays us all to be more informed.

I said we were entitled to it. Whether we choose to feel it or not is anyone's prerogative of course.

Right except in that conversation she was pretty adamant about staying in Canada. She even kept pushing the issue in the night portion of the date. She's ok when's she's not living in Canada sure but that's just it she essentially said she does not want to move from Canada. Now she may have changed her mind since but I'm going on what was obviously said in that conversation. Why am I over thinking it when I respond to what seemingly looks like argument trying to divert from the obvious?? There may have been deleted footage that would have explained things better but we saw and heard what she did said. It wasn't a voiceover. It looked pretty seamless so I don't think it was spliced. I don't hate Vanessa no more than I blindingly love Raven but the truth is pretty obvious in my opinion. And by the way for all the Canadian posters I have nothing against your country. I've never visited but I've been told it's beautiful. I worked for a Canadian company with many Canadians and they were great people. So my opinions about Vanessa's conversation in no way reflect any animosity or prejudice against Canada or it's people.

So then again why would she specify Montreal? If she lived in another city why not use that as a point of reference? Or again she could have just said, "back home". I get your saying the weather can vary across the country but it doesn't sound like there's that much difference. I mean Chicago winters can be brutal too. In fact Nick said just that. Point being why did she automatically go to Montreal if she didn't live there? And I never said the USA is bigger than Canada...lol. But I get it. National pride and all. We're all entitled to that.

He actually said, "when your in Montreal you do family dinners?". I wondered about that too but (as I stated above) when faced with all the logical evidence, that indicates she does live in Montreal, I took it to mean he posed it as a questioning statement reiterating what she said. Sort of like, " so when your home you have family dinners". Or say to Corrine, " when your in Miami you go shopping".

Vanessa's bio on ABC says she's from Montreal. I watched the scene over again and what city she lived in was never really specified. That's why I just assumed she lived in Montreal. Also I noticed on the night portion of their date as they're walking through the snow Nick says something about the cold and she says, 'yeah the winters in Montreal can be very brutal". Now I assume in Canada the winters are brutal throughout the country? So why would she specific Montreal? She could have said "back home". Why wouldn't she have just said the city she lives in if she doesn't live in Montreal? Her hometown date was in Montreal where she took Nick to her students/her job there in the city. I would think her being a teacher it would be a full time job and she would need to live there. Unless she has other means and could afford to commute but why the hassle of a long commute? So I think it's safe to say she lives in Montreal?

I agree there was probably more to it than what we were shown because we know how much they edit as they see fit. So Vanessa doesn't live in the same city as her family? I don't remember that being specified. I just remember her only saying that she wouldn't compromise about her Sundays with her family and it was something she looked forward to all week.

She did. She specially stated that having her Sundays with her family was something she looked forward to all week. And she never relented from that. Not even a little.

I remember Lindzi and wondering how she had got to F2. But I believe the biggest difference between her and Raven are the bachelors they had. I don't remember Lindzi as having any kind of special connection with Ben and although Courtney's win was as obvious as Vanessa's has been I think Nick grew to care for Raven more than Ben (he was such an ass) ever did for Lindzi. By now we all know the editors tricks of trying to throw off the viewers with projecting doubt about the F1. I suspect they might not have shown the better side of Vanessa as much or possible scenes that were more harmonious. But I also think the editors, for whatever reason, chose to delete scenes which show a closer connection between him and Raven. In the deleted clip I saw (goggle deleted scenes Nick and Raven) Nick tells her that he likes that she's not a bullshitter and she says, "I told you in our one on one that I wasn't a bullshitter and I didn't think you were one. I admire that in a man". I think there was a easy understanding between them and a natural ease that was present in all their time together. The biggest thing against her is her immaturity with men and that she's not really ready for marriage. I think Nick realized this and although his initial thoughts might have been that she would be easier to cut because she wasn't as intense as some of the women in the end I suspect he grew closer to her than some think. The very nature of that conversation is so contradictory to the thought of him taking her all the way to the end and then cutting her that unless they secretly and agreeably had this conversation that he would pick Vanessa, (and knowing what we know of Nick's nature) it would have had to bother him way more than some think it did. I think it was obvious that Ben F cared about nobody but himself and what he wanted. It's been awhile but I don't remember there being much of a connection between him and Lindzi at all. Not even a particular likability factor. I think Nick appreciated all his connections with these women as evidenced by his easy connection with Alexis. I think he had much this same easy connection with Raven with the difference being he was actually physically attracted to her also. So I think the easy dismissal of Raven as basically fodder is inaccurate and doesn't warrant a comparison to Ben and Lindzi at all.

Seems like I remember someone saying she did but I'm not sure. But I can see that. Especially considering that big hug they gave each other when Rachel was eliminated. I guess time will tell if he's serious or not and I will admit he's a really good dancer. The chance to do something he enjoys doing is a better reason for him doing it than for money in my opinion. But for me it was the initial disappointment that I felt when they announced him more than anything that swayed my opinion. I had just spent weeks defending him for doing the Bachelor, believing he was serious this time and really enjoying him as the lead. So my initial reaction when they announced him was, "oh no Nick why are you giving them ammunition". Then I started doubting his reasons myself. Maybe I was a little hasty. If his F1 had input into the decision and was there to support him than totally different ballgame. It will be interesting to see how all that plays out. And regarding your comment about how some contestants get a side eye and others get a pass, I agree. Take for instance Sean that you mentioned in your post. Seems like many of the people who are giving Nick a pass gave Sean hell for doing the same thing? It's either they had their reasons and it's fine or they're both money hungry fame whores. And I didn't watch Sean's season or know much about him. It just seems what's good for one should be good for the other.

I think why many people feel that way is the cumulative total of all the times he's been on reality shows. I did say that he might still be serious even with going on. I didn't realize that DWTS paid so much. Money certainly does a lot of talking but were I his pick I would still have to question all his time and commitment being put into filming another show when you have a new fragile relationship to nourish. Some things are more important than money. You say that you would make him if you were his pick but the thing is we don't know that his pick had any say so in his decision. He could (and more than likely did) make the sole decision himself.

I know, right? Funny.

Good points. For the most part I agree with everything you said but in all honesty how can people judge her for something she may or may not do when apparently Nick is doing the same thing. I really liked him throughout most of the show and believed he was honestly looking for something serious until he decided to go do DWTS. Now he may be serious and of course that's his choice but that looks bad on him I think in terms of showing just how serious he was with any of these woman. Correct me if I'm wrong please, but was it you that said you didn't like the fact that Raven made "team Raven" t-shirts? See I don't see anything wrong with that. Apparently from a lot of her Instagram posts she has a lot of friends and she does run a fashion boutique so I can see her friends wanting her to make those for them because they wanted to support the hometown girl and with her shop it would have been a easy process. Now I may give her a pass with a slight side eye if she shows up on BIP but the true test of whether or not she's just basically fame whoring and wasn't really serious is if she continually shows up on the franchise or other reality shows. Kind of like....Nick. Vanessa does seem like she would be more heartbroken if he didn't pick her but apparently she did some earlier shows on Canadian tv so I wouldn't completely rule out that her intentions are 100% pure either. We can only speculate about any of this. Who he picks, will they last, will they go on to do more and more reality tv? Only time will tell.

Good post. Thank you.

Look I like Raven so I'm sure people think that's coloring my perspective but as a women who knows what those looks from a man mean I'm telling you that those times with Rachel, Kristina and Whitney were nothing compared to those caresses he was giving Raven. The only time I saw that look was with Vanessa and Raven. Which makes sense that they're the F2. Sure it's probably mostly physical but I don't think it's fair to say that there is no chemistry between them and just blindly dismiss her. I really don't know why people dislike her so much. Unlike Vanessa she got along great with all the other women. That speaks volumes to me. She strikes me as the friend that everybody would love to hang out with who although is fairly smart needs occasional guidance when it comes to men and learning the difference between being blindly honest and subtlety honest. I give Vanessa her due and although I know she's not everybody's cup of tea why can't people give Raven hers?

I don't think he will pick her but he might be better off if he did. I'm beginning to think that he's not deep down serious about any of them. If that were the case then Raven's fun drama free personality would be much better for him at the moment. She's not a intellectual sure but she's smarter than most people give her credit for. I mean she is a business owner not a chicken enthusiast. I saw a deleted scene somewhere online of one on one time between them. They were sitting on a bed and Raven had the bottom of her legs casually across his lap. Nick was rubbing her calf area but the more they talked his hands kept riding higher and higher to the point where he was in the thigh area. The look on his face said it all. A commentator observed, "wow it's like he's totally unaware of the cameras. I was looking any minute for him to grab her groin." I noticed on their last date that same look again when they were in the pub and he was pulling her closer to him. I say that to say for those who don't think there's chemistry between them, maybe not so fast. I mean he didn't take her to F2 for nothing. That's why I wouldn't completely rule out that they didn't have sex in the fantasy suite. Vanessa is a classic Italian beauty and there's intense chemistry between them. I really liked her in the beginning and even pulled for her. But I hate a bossy, overbearing attitude and the more that emerged from her I backed off somewhat. If he picks her and they can work out the logistics than good for them. It just seems like if that be the case there's going to be a lot of storm clouds ahead and I can see that wearing down Nick quickly. We've already seen where he's made not so optimistic comments in saying he would never move from America. I think he will pick Vanessa but whoever he picks I don't think it looks good for either that he would choose to run off and do DWTS instead of using that time to bond with them.

Boy wouldn't that be the shows time to lay a complete stunner on everyone! They would love that. It would probably even stun Raven.

What she said was fairly plain spoken to me and I took it literally like most would do I think. Unless she was lying. They were talking about compromises and Nick said: Is there anything that you would never compromise on? Her answer was yes. He seemed surprised and asked her what that was. And she said Sunday dinners with her family. They talked some more about it but I don't ever remember her saying anything suggesting she would compromise or relent even a little. So the only other way I can get around that obvious statement is to say that her and Nick had already worked this out behind the cameras and production made this big completely fabricated conversation for the cameras. Yes the show edits, splices and dices but that's all they talked about in the hot tub and then continued it on the evening portion. There was so much dialogue on the subject that it's hard to believe it was all fabricated and edited. So it's either fabricated and she lied or she meant what she said. Pretty simple to me.

But she did say she would never compromise on Sunday dinners with her family. That's about as close as you can get without actually saying it. Unless she would move but then expect them to fly from said location to Canada every Sunday. Again that's not realistic expectations.

Then why didn't she express any of that in the hot tub conversation with Nick? Yes we don't know what they talk about when the cameras are not around but unless the producers told them to have this super exaggerated conflict scenario than her words and feelings now are quite a bit different. I don't dislike Vanessa but people have a point when they say she should have realistically expected the odds were not in her favor. And that goes for any Canadian contestant. Thinking about it would anybody realistically expect a different outcome if this were reversed and a Canadian show with a Canadian lead was automatically expected to move to America for a American contestant who knew what they were getting into? Yes there should be compromise but if you go to their country, on their show then it seems to me the balance is already tipped somewhat in the leads favor.

I've enjoyed Nick as the bachelor as well but I agree with you about he needed to have those conversations sooner rather than wait until the very end. You know I'm actually starting to wonder (as others have suspected) if at some point in this process he then realized that none of these women were totally what he was wanting and he just went with the ones who, although he knew he wouldn't end up staying with, he had the most physical attraction to, respected the most, and had the best times with. Knowing (in my opinion) that Vanessa would be the one he would ultimately pick so that the logistics of living in separate countries would be the excuse he could use to say why it didn't work out. But like I said it will be interesting to see how it plays out. Bookies could have a field day running odds about how long it would last.

http://www.glamour.com/story/the-bachelor-nick-viall-vanessa-grimaldi-raven-gates-overnight-dates I found a interesting Glamour article with Nick. The link's above but one thing I found interesting was Nick's answer to his statement about being proud to be an American: Glamour: You said, "I’m a proud American! I don’t know if I see myself in Canada." That's a bold statement when you're considering getting engaged to a Canadian. NV: I’m very progressive in a lot of ways, but I’m a very proud American. It sounds so corny to say, but I am and have always been very…I’m just so proud. I don’t ever not want to live in America. And Canada is great! I love Canada. A lot of great things in Canada. But… His statement, "I don't ever not want to live in America" is pretty telling to me. So if he picks her (which seems to be a given) pretty much Vanessa moves to America or it's a no go. I vaguely remember reading something on here about she had went back to teaching after the show finished filming? Which it's possible she's only doing that until the finale airs and then will move down later but she seemed pretty determined to remain in Canada on the fantasy suite date. As another poster said it sounds like this relationship is DOA but it will be interesting to see how it plays out.