juniemoon

I've been lurking in this forum so long, my Laoghaire could be leggings. I've been reading the regular forums -- itching the whole time (from suppressed dissent, not my Laoghaire) -- and forgot, until recently, about Unpopular Opinions. Bless you all. I hope you will indulge. I'll start by confessing that my love-hate with DG and these books -- and by extension, this series -- is pretty intense. I started watching the series before reading any of the books, and I was so traumatized -- and I am no prude and have been a fan of some pretty graphic films and shows -- by the Jaime-rape scenes in S1, I thought to myself, there is no way Outlander has so many devoted fans unless the book version is somehow less graphic, or able to be imagined as such. (UO #1: Sorry, I'm one who thought those scenes were both homoerotic and torture porn.) So I started reading, and yes, I could read those scenes and, although still disturbing, see them as more "tolerable." But the main thing was, I was dealing with an extended period of profound loss and stress at the time, and (UO #2, thankfully shared by some of you here!) DG's mostly bad, occasionally luminous writing transported me to some other world I badly needed as an escape. And that's how I got here. I read books 1 - 4 purely to escape/forget. I actually preferred the parts where DG loses herself (and her story, ha) in minute detail, even when it was obviously excessive and in need of a good edit. What I didn't care for were those jarring parts where it seemed like she had a bad, trope-y romance writer whom she called upon to step in with OTT dialog or some quirky fetish that a focus group must have said turned readers on. I've read other comments about DG's seemingly split personality, and I seriously wonder if she's managed to keep a tone-deaf writing partner a secret. Or just googled DIY romance writing and clumsily followed the instructions, like a horny 12-year-old. (I adopted a habit of saying out loud, "Oh, Diannnnna, why???" whenever she went too far; you all know what I mean!) Which brings me to UO #3: I'm with those who see little chemistry between TV Jaime and Claire. I get it; I've loved some shows so much, my imagination fills in what's missing to satisfy my head and heart's version of things -- and book readers have even more material to substitute for what's not here -- but this isn't one of them. Sex isn't chemistry, and IMO, these two characters, while fond enough of each other, are missing real spark. I struggle every week to find reasons to keep watching, and sometimes there's a single lovely moment, and sometimes it's as simple as "Sam's so pretty," but that's all I see. I honestly can't say how much of it is the writing or the acting -- sometimes Sam and/or Cait transcend the material, and sometimes the dialog and/or plot contrivances are just too dreadful to overcome. I've given up on the books after #4 -- I've made it to a less perilous place in my life, and I noticed DG wasn't the medicine I needed anymore (and I notice many book readers said this was one of the hardest to get through, and I agree; I was bored stiff) -- but I'll admit that the beginning of Voyager was my favorite part of the entire saga so far. DG described loneliness so starkly, so viscerally, some of her passages brought tears. I was so hoping the series would let Sam embody this prolonged period of profound suffering, but no, it was one episode of Big Bearded Caveman, a quicky tour of prison, and one ep of Helwater, which brought his alienation to a bittersweet crescendo in the books but was over in an hour on TV. (I wish they would have covered only up to the actual voyage this season, cutting most of Claire's years in Boston, giving Jaime his due and time to breathe, but that may be UO #5.) Thanks for letting me at last say my piece. Honestly, I'm not a traditional romance reader, and I'm one tough customer when it comes to selling me "true, forever love," but these books took me somewhere I needed to be at a time in my life I'll never forget. I probably yearned for a specific version of this series as much as devoted book fans yearn for the next chapter. That it's not what I'd hoped is no surprise, really. I take what I can from each episode and marvel at all of your passionate insights.

I re-watched last night since I missed parts of it the first time through. I thought this was actually one of the best episodes in a long while. Before I get to what I liked, I will say I could have done without Louise, whom I've always thought was a waste of time, and Campbell, who has just always bugged me. Giving them so much more air time in the finale reminded me how many good characters were killed off. There was just nobody left. Out of curiosity, I looked up the original "golden spike" historical photograph, and I love that they recreated it so faithfully, except for including the women (who weren't in the original). I also noticed that everyone was trying to label Bohannon -- "You're a railroad man!" "You're a soldier!" -- and that he chafed under those simple summaries of who he was, including his own suspicion that he's just a "killer." Sailing off to China without any labels or ranks or expectations heaped upon him was a good way to reject all that baggage. I liked how Bohannon's train ride west took him back through some of the show's most significant settings -- Cheyenne, the river bridge -- so we could recall the journey with him. I wish they would have done more with that, shown a remnant of a Hell on Wheels encampment, a graveyard, an Indian on a distant rise, maybe something symbolic of Lily -- taken us on a more complete journey. I wondered if he was thinking specifically of Elam while passing Cheyenne. I do wish there had been some nod to Elam in the ep. I didn't expect Eva to go looking for her child -- there seemed way too much water under that bridge by now -- but I did wonder if they might have her visit Elam's grave. Guess not. I liked that they had Bohannon return to the site of his first (I think) revenge killing in the DC church confessional and ponder what it meant to be "saved." I've read Anson Mount's remarks about how that scene affected him, resulting in the laugh-crying, but I'm still not entirely clear on what Bohannon was thinking. Mount says he realizes the railroad saved him, and I get that, but for me, there was still some ambiguity there I think could have been made more satisfying. It was the turning point for him, and I'd like to have a clear understanding of the message. Durant is a reliable blowhard, but I thought his speech over the ending was appropriate. His words were describing the grander vision that so deeply shaped the very personal experiences of the characters being shown. Its message was that the ends justify the means, but as we watched the people we came to care about picking up the pieces and moving toward their individual fates, it was hard -- bittersweet -- to embrace that truth. One odd moment during the party at the White House was Durant telling Bohannon he never expected to see such an uncouth Southerner at the White House (I forget the exact words he used), when in fact, he learned in S2 that Bohannon was an educated, cultured man who'd married a "high society" woman, and that he hid his breeding to relate better to his workers. (One of my favorite lines of the whole series is Bohannon asking a peeved Lily afterward, "Did ya' like me better when I was stupid?") All in all, I thought the tone was right -- I read that the director was the same who'd directed the very first episode -- and the story stronger than in recent seasons. Still wish I could have followed the much-different story of Original Recipe Bohannon, but given my abysmal expectations for this finale, I was surprisingly satisfied.

Along similar lines, NoDorothyParker, I found this ending to be OK for S3 - S5 Cullen Bohannon, but I find myself wishing the Gayton Brothers and the original writers would go back to Original Recipe S1 - S2 Cullen Bohannon and tell us what kind of ending HE got. Because I just don't see "Cullen Gets the Girl" as that Cullen Bohannon's most satisfying ending. At least the girl is in faraway China, so I can tell myself he's going as much for the adventure as the girl. Also, it seems sailing into the sunset is the new cliche ending across a lot of shows (Outlander S1, Game of Thrones). Some do it better than others.

I just had a flashback to Mr. Ed (yes, I'm old), saying, "But Willlllllburrrrrr, pleeeease, I killed kin." I have to confess that I haven't seen this ep yet, nor the last one, because I decided to stop the trickle of painful disappointment from watching episode by episode and just binge -- pull off the band-aid -- the final three eps next weekend. And any scene that has viewers wondering if they're seeing severe leg pain, or a heart attack, or a stroke, or accumulated emotional loss just validates my decision. (Didn't Bohannon have a similarly dramatic emotional release when he wailed at Elam's grave?) I don't really need to see Cullen "happy." I just need for his ending to make sense for his character. And I have very little faith that it will.

Hmm...I have a real love-hate relationship with the books (and kind of with the TV show, too), but the one thing that completely won me over was the prolonged, deeply melancholy, achingly lonely portrayal of Jamie's life during those 20 years apart. I could feel it in my bones. So I would love for Sam/Jamie to finally get his due with material he can sink into and use to show us new sides to his character. If they rush through that, I'll be so disappointed.

I agree, peacefrog, and I think that's what I was trying to say, that Sam's role is thankless. I'm not sure anyone could completely convincingly play a man with such extreme, multi-century sensibilities. I also agree on the inconsistency of both. Good point, Watchrtina, about McTavish and about Vikings, although I think they've done an excellent job of aging Ragnar, and Travis Fimmel, as you note, is very good at portraying physical decline. With Claire though, I felt like I was seeing the younger Claire in modern costume. I think it's easier to "age" male actors and still have us think they're sexy than it is to do the same for women. Cultural bias and all that.

I had more problems with this episode than most, but Watchrtina hits on something I've tried to define throughout the series. In general, I love watching Sam H., and there are moments where he truly rises above (the fight with Claire after rescuing her in The Reckoning, for example), but I've never been able to shake the sense that something's just a tad off. I think it might be the challenge of playing this epic, larger than life hero from another century, charging around, giving orders, etc., while also accessing modern notions of tenderness, intimacy and vulnerability -- emotions that likely wouldn't have found expression among men (or even women) in the 18th century. I often feel like Claire is more "real" and therefore accessible, while Jamie seems a bit trapped in more of a fantasy role. In the books, I think it's easier for our imaginations to reconcile and balance so they relate more equally, but Sam having to visually portray this masculine icon of his time who also connects deeply and emotionally with a modern woman is probably a greater challenge. I don't know, I keep trying to pinpoint it. What I liked about this episode: The casting of Roger. I've only read the first three books, but TVRoger is a big improvement over my imagination's version of BookRoger. Thank you, Richard Rankin. The sets, especially the ruins, which were deeply affecting. What I didn't like: I agree with what others have already said about the pacing and the amount of time jumping. I wanted to feel the increasing tension and drama of the approaching battle and Claire's departure, but all the momentum was lost with every cutaway to the '60s. Dougal's death seemed almost perfunctory. The '60s music made the transitions all the more jarring, and I didn't think it was necessary nor added to the scenes. I also agree that the ending was downright silly. I couldn't believe Caitriona Balfe was actually fluttering her eyelids -- I'm guessing that was a director's terrible idea of what we do when blinded by sun -- and wondered why on earth TPTB assumed we needed to be spoon-fed such a heaping mouthful (eye-ful?) of cheese. Agree that the actress playing Brianna is out of her depth. Maybe there is time for coaching before next season. I was hoping they'd leave out the emergency farewell quickie sex, which made me cringe in the book. When the enemy is bearing down on you, I'm thinking a few-second banging isn't quite as appealing as when your life isn't threatened. That said, I guess it was a little more tolerable in this ep, given that the enemy wasn't in pursuit. But I'd have rather they exchanged more heartfelt dialogue than 6 seconds of bodily fluids at that point. While I agree that Cait looked great in her "aged" makeup, I thought she looked too great. She's nearly 50 at this point, and I saw nary a line on her face. Even the most beautiful women, by age 50, have a few lovely lines to show they've laughed and cried for decades, and I don't think it would have made her less appealing to show them. I'll admit, I also found BookClaire's physical flawlessness hard to swallow -- gravity eventually has its way, even in the fittest women -- but I understand DG's dilemma in keeping her lead characters conventionally sexy after depriving them of togetherness during their physical prime. That said, I thought Outlander prided itself on its female point of view, and it might have been nice to see physical aging depicted realistically and still admired. I don't know how J&C's bodies will be depicted next season, but I hope they don't have perfect early 30-something bodies on 50-ish heads, lol. It's definitely a quandary.

I'll admit I wasn't watching with the degree of attention I used to, but I was so confused. First Mickey says he won't kill kin (even though we know he killed his brother), then he kills kin, then he breaks down to Eva that he killed kin -- twice. Why did he kill Johnny exactly? And what sense did the sex make with Eva? WTH? I don't even have any farfetched theories. Maggie is now So In Love with Durant, she's willing to sell her hotel to save him. Uh huh. How long does a sale like that take? Apparently she wrapped it up in maybe a day, in cash. Not only does she have magnificent bazoombas, she has giant real estate skillz. Can't use 'em now, though. No Cullen Bohannon, the only reason I'm hanging on with my scraped and bleeding knuckles. I wish I'd just waited for this last season to come out on Netflix and binged-and-cringed through to the end in one painful swoop.

I have no idea what I'm watching anymore. From the sex we've seen, what are we supposed to think about Cullen's feelings for Mei? Does he feel something for her, or is he just satisfying urges? (Seems more like the latter.) And while I saw a little bit of chemistry between them during the first half of the season, I'm not seeing any now. Making the nitro bottles rattle? What was the point? To distract us from the un-sexy sex? Fail. Yes, rough sex can be hot, but this just seemed like WTF? I have no idea what's supposed to be between them and now don't care. The whole Maggie/Durant thing also seems like some other show. And women of that time didn't wear their dresses without undergarments -- quite the contrary. So her throwing on her dress and standing there with her girls strategically exposed was laughable (and again, aimed at the adolescent boy audience, I guess). "Marry me!"? Where did that come from? I thought Strobridge was one of the more interesting remaining characters, and just like that, Cullen gets him fired for seemingly no reason. He didn't have to "order" him to work with the nitro. Guess they're just shedding characters now. I agree with lidarose9 that the whole thing just seems like random scenes with no rhyme or reason or direction. No character development or insight. No clear storylines. What a great original premise gone completely off the rails. (So to speak.) I'll limp to the end but only because it's so near.

I am very, very glad snitty Mormon wife is gone. I'd like the whole show to rewind and bypass the ridiculous Let's Have Dessert in the Barn plot line, but I'm just grateful it's over. I wanted to feel something when Cullen passed his life wisdom to his young son, but I thought Anson Mount was really straining to make that credible. His face was tortured but his eyes were absolutely dry. I think he's struggled with the writers' continually morphing characterization of Bohannon and maybe having trouble finding the character's center now, although I do think he's doing the best he can with the bad writing he's been given. I was hoping he'd get together with Mei but hated how they did it. I've never found those manic face-mashing scenes anywhere near as sexy as some slow, deliberate undressing and kissing (like the love scene he did with Lily Bell). And I'd have preferred one more episode of the two of them acknowledging their growing attraction before Mei just strips for him. (And not a fan of having the woman get naked while the man stays fully clothed. Again, is the audience made up of 12-year-old boys?) Since when is Maggie Palmer attracted to Durant? For such a corrupt, pompous pill (with a murderous wife), he sure gets the babes. That kiss was a real WTF? for me. Nice to see Psalms, of course, if only briefly. And yeah, what was up with Eva and the white horse?

Yes, and I haven't enjoyed the show since. Like others, I just felt I needed to see the show to its end. Why must "redemption" mean "lose your edge, marry a God-fearing woman, change diapers, eat your vegetables and fart quietly"? This is a Western, for god's sake, with the central character initially wanting "frontier justice" for his murdered wife and child. Not an After School Special with old-timey costumes. Cullen should have been allowed to shoot, strangle, stab, poison AND drag the Swede 100 miles behind his horse after all the horror between them, and we would have felt every minute was justified and cheered. Instead we get an anticlimactic, garden-variety hanging -- with lots of writhing and bodily emissions to satisfy the adolescent boys they apparently think watch this show -- and zero sense of payoff. I feel sorry for Anson Mount, who apparently questioned the writing and then had to explain it to fans. There are many ways for Cullen Bohannon, even watered-down Cullen Bohannon, to defeat his demons, and they don't require his retreating to a little house on the prairie. Too bad this team of writers doesn't have the maturity or creativity to deliver them.

I apologize if someone else has already mentioned this in previous episode threads, but I've been struck by the physical resemblance between Doug and Ben. They look like brothers. I thought the show was trying especially hard to show this by having them sit side by side on the bench this episode. So I keep wondering how it all shakes out if Ben is, in fact, Doug's brother or son.

I wasn't nuts about this episode -- it felt to me like the meeting came out of nowhere, with not enough clarification of each player's agenda beforehand -- but I did see a brief flash of the old HoW I loved in the scene between these two outside of Durant's tent. I got all sentimental when Bohannon asked him if he was sorry he hired him instead of hanging him. *sniff* *sniff* I still think the end game is Bohannon with Mei and Mormon baby, but I'd actually prefer an ending where he just rides off alone to some new adventure after the last spike goes in (both into the railroad and into the Swede in some fashion). That feels more in character to me, because I've always liked brooding, unsettled, unpredictable Cullen much more than passive, family-man Cullen.

I'm a woman, and I absolutely loved seasons 1 and 2, have been horribly disappointed ever since the original show creators left and John Wirth took over. (Check out his credits to see why the storytelling has gone to, well, hell.) From what I've read, those who prefer Cullen Bohannon 2.0 seem to like more conventional Westerns, and seasons 3 onward have definitely gone that route. (I'd argue to the point of being little more than the "spaghetti Westerns" of old, but YMMV.) I miss the Native American storylines, the freedmen's unique post-Civil-War struggles, the complexities of Cullen and Elam's relationship, and the education along the way about how the railroad was built (including the historically accurate dirty dealings behind the scenes). Cullen was a very dark character, and his "growth" was very gradual, subtle and prone to backsliding, which I found much more interesting than this shiny new husband and daddy. The minute they put him in a suit with a pipe, acting like a railroad baron, smiling and talking four times as much as he had before, I knew I'd lost my show. So sad. I'm like nodorothyparker in that I am compelled to see things through to their conclusion even when I don't care anymore. I do feel like there are some very good actors, Anson Mount among them, who possibly miss their more complex/challenging versions from the first two seasons but are seeing things through, and I feel a weird sense of responsibility to give them their due as they wrap up and move on, I hope, to better things.

I'm not absolutely certain, but I thought it was "thank you." I think they've used those Cantonese words in other scenes, probably trying to help viewers become familiar. (Obvious fail.) I thought he was thanking her for helping him put to rest all those he's loved and whom he's had to bury, by having the floating candles ceremony. She said one candle was for her father, and the other was for all the people Cullen's had to grieve (not in those words, but that was the gist). So in the tent, when he told her, "I lost my wife and boy," he could have meant either the wife and boy that the soldiers killed in Mississippi or the Mormon snit and baby boy. I can't believe I'm going to say this -- because I lost my love for this show after Season 2 and still watch like an exhausted marathoner dragging herself to the finish line -- but I thought that part of last night's story (the weariness over so much death and the rather lovely floating candles to symbolize letting go of ghosts) was nicely done. So Cullen now feels like Mei has "set him free." I am not spoiled and have no idea how this thing ends, but I wouldn't be surprised if the Mormon snit dies (probably via the Swede) and Cullen rides off into the sunset with Mei and his son.