Fouts

My guess is that Natalie has histrionic personality disorder. https://www.healthdirect.gov.au/histrionic-personality-disorder

It really was quite remarkable, wasn't it, Quof?

Excellent points, Shelbie. The show has been careful not to explain exactly the religious differences between Ethan and Olivia. I'd been leaning towards her losing her faith entirely, which for sure would be a big deal for Ethan going forward with raising children. But this episode made me wonder if it was more just that Olivia has gone from deep fundamentalist beliefs to a more liberal Christian faith. That thought only occurred to me when Ethan made his "When have you last cooked me a meal, Woman?" comment. I think Olivia knew, in that exact moment, it was hopeless for her to stay married to Ethan. He'd seemed to have made a lot of progress in life but suddenly made clear that the patriarchy drilled into him growing up had cemented inside him, deep inside. If Olivia actually still holds to the basic tenants of the Christian faith, that remark was an extremely stupid one for Ethan to make, as it was the nail in the coffin for his marriage. Either: 1. Ethan is an idiot. 2. Olivia is now an agnostic or atheist or holds to a non-Christian faith. 3. Ethan was just desperate to touch back to the more predictable (yet toxic) ways of his youth given all the recent turmoil in his marriage and the painful rejection of his family. I did like how Ethan earlier explained to Moriah (and the cameras) how much the Plaths contributed to damaging his marriage right out of the gate. Their toxicity couldn't help but seep into their young relationship. At first Kim was threatened that Olivia might lessen her control over the family. Then later the entire family saw Olivia as a convenient scapegoat given the implosion related to Barry and Kim's divorce. Even Ethan recognized the scapegoating part, and expressed it well. It will be very interesting to see what happens next, particularly if Ethan returns to and embraces his family as they surely will expect. But one thing for sure, as someone else wisely pointed out earlier, is that the Platts will be in a huge need of a new scapegoat. They will do anything but face the facts of their own harmful acts and the destruction left in the wake. In the meantime, I agree that Olivia should prosper. I look forward to watching that happen.

I noticed that about Kim's skirt, too, Quof. Does she not own a mirror? The woman is so delusional in a number of ways. BTW, I love how Kim mentioned something about how nice Barry has been with the family, and that she might have stayed had he been like this in the past. Hmmm... wondering if Kim is already experiencing some regrets? You are no Barbie, Kim, and your Ken is no Ryan Gosling.

My notes for this week’s episode, which I'm putting here because there's still no thread started for the newest one— Moriah: Scored a tiny bit of credit by admitting she “over-reacted” about the supposed music thievery, but then immediately lost it by refusing to acknowledge how Olivia shared the passwords before they left for Italy. (I totally believe Ethan on this one. Moriah’s already proven herself to have horrible recall about such things.) Moriah appeared a little grieved at the thought of Ethan suffering with his marriage because of the family drama, but I suspect that inwardly she’s thrilled to hear of his trouble there. Her sudden willingness to be “civil” to Olivia is much too little, too late. Even Ethan was like, don’t bother. Moriah, your new tattoos aren’t helping with your unfortunate fashion sense, one that has taken an otherwise cute young woman and made her look trashy and haggard. You can recover from your sorry clothing and fried hair when you finally figure it all out, but dealing with your sad ink choices is going to be a more painful and expensive hill to climb. But you do you. In the meantime, you should just go get a bunch more similar tats. Ethan: I liked that he didn’t let Moriah off the hook by reminding her how she’d already had a terrible relationship with Kim well before Olivia entered the picture. Moriah didn’t seem to appreciate hearing that. Good on Ethan for bringing up how marriages need to take priority over other family (a very biblical concept) but of course Moriah didn’t want to hear that, either. Also score for Ethan for finally not being afraid to have difficult conversations with either Moriah or Olivia without running away. In Ethan’s summit with Olivia, he started out making sense about their differences of values when it came to big ticket issues like religion. But then he went and blew up all sympathy by suggesting that Olivia return to her family of origin to get some reminders of her family’s old values, including those good old patriarchal ways! Like how women-folk need to cook three meals a day because that’s how it has to be plus it works for him and proves her love as “one of the only keys to his heart”… Oh, Ethan. Judging by Olivia’s face during this exchange, I think that’s the very instant she knew it was hopeless. Then she doubled down by reminding Ethan of his lack of honesty, communication, and care for her. Ethan, you screwed up big-time in a whole lotta ways and it’s going to hurt for a long time. Olivia: I give both Ethan and Olivia credit for talking in a calm and mostly rationale manner about such deep and painful stuff. Too bad that this willingness to communicate has come years too late on Ethan’s part. The whole break-up scene was one of the most heart-breaking, raw, and real moments I’ve ever seen on television. Olivia, go off somewhere beautiful for college and live your best life. It’s not too late for you. Kim: Pretty low of her to snide about Barry wanting to sell the house for money reasons when she’s the one who blew up the family and made it all necessary. Actions have consequences. I know it must come as a shock, but you no longer hold all the cards with the Plath family, including Barry. Kim, just go away. Enjoy your man who has so many marbles in his mouth that he needs closed-captioning. Barry: Good for you for not automatically saying you’d take Kim back. You surprised me with that but I’m sure it will shock Kim even more when she hears those words come out of your mouth. Isaac: Somehow Isaac turned into a hot teenager overnight. How did that happen? Good on him with his plan to go to college. Run, Isaac, run, and never look back—for your sake as well as any woman in your future. Micah: I don’t recall too much about him from this episode except for his crazy eyebrow acting making another appearance. I was just too distracted by those eyebrows to pay attention. You're not nearly as cute as you think you are. Micah, you used to be an attractive young man but your nasty personality now trumps your looks and you come up negative. Lydia: Good on you to keep your new beau private so far. But please don’t move too fast and it’s a shame you’re not going off to college first like Isaac, because you would thrive at a small conservative Christian college.

My notes from last night's episode: Micah 1. Just shut your trap, especially in regard to your obsession with Olivia. Their marriage is not your business. 2. You are hardly a relationship expert. You fail at that more than eyebrow acting. 3. Manipulating Ethan to be forced to talk to Moriah before he's ready. 4. I'm still rage-y at Micah for real-time suggesting publicly that Olivia may have been a cheater when there's nothing to suggest such a thing. I'm thinking this betrayal may actually have been the final straw for Olivia. How can you be part of such a cruel family that would do something like that to you? Barry 1. One step forward by encouraging Ethan to work on his marriage. 2. Two steps back by calling Olivia "toxic" in his solo interviews. Just what is toxic, Barry? The lies that Moriah and Micah reported about Olivia and you believed? Maybe you've not heard how Moriah now begrudgingly admits she made up the credit card and music theft stories? Ethan 1. Didn't irritate me so much this week 2. Liked his boldness in asking Barry if he and other family members were secretly hoping Ethan would divorce Olivia. (Loved watching Barry's immediate physical squirm at that question.) 3. Actually tried to call Olivia. 4. Didn't let Moriah off too easily with her lies and blame game, at least so far. 5. Hoping he holds her feet to the truth fire in next week's episode. Kim 1. Somehow don't really care that much about her as she's becoming increasingly irrelevant. 2. Does anyone buy the idea that Ken's scene of suggesting the shack-up wasn't totally arranged, planned, and rehearsed by them both? Laughing at Ken saying he had a couple extra rooms Kim could use...yeah, right. As if those two hadn't been knocking boots already for some time. And Kim vacillating because of the kids? You've already demonstrated just how much you care about your minor children's well-being, Kim. 3. This all from the same woman who once shamed and punished her older teen/obedient slave for simply texting a boy a few extra times. Olivia 1. Looked the knock-out walking around Florence. 2. Ethan will be full of regrets. But now he gets all the time he wants now with his family, many of whom actually are toxic. Choices have consequences. Hope they're worth it.

Excellent thoughts about the plane purchase, Pinenut. Methinks Kim also saw the plane purchase as: 1. A way to introduce Ken into the show in a way that seemed like he was a stranger (when most of us recognize that Kim had likely been with Ken for a while already and was the basis of her blowing up her marriage.) 2. A way to curry favor with Isaac so she could feel better about herself hanging around Ken in front of him. BTW, way to go, Kim, screwing with your minor child's head by chirping if it weren't for him, you'd have not met Ken in the first place. Basically, Kim let Isaac know that if it weren't for him, his parents' divorce might not be progressing and his family continue imploding. Then Kim added on the head-screwing suggestion that they should double date. Seriously messed up parenting there.

Scotsgir, I just took their use of "patriotism" as a code word for politics. I think they're all deliberately trying avoid bringing politics into this discussion, nothing more than that. But I do believe that Olivia has swung from one end of the pendulum to another, how ever people might prefer to call it.

Olivia did say one time that her faith had drastically changed. Something about going from espousing a religion to just being a spiritual person. I could be wrong, but I took her as saying she had rejected Christianity altogether. That would bother Ethan a lot, for sure, but Christianity teaches that a person is supposed to remain married to an unbeliever, not leave them. My guess with the patriotism is that she switched political affiliations from one far end of the spectrum to the other. All of this could be worked out between them except it gets much trickier if they have children. I'm referring here especially to the faith part, not the political part. Parents having vastly different beliefs is a tricky one. I imagine this is what is freaking Ethan out and causing him to say he's hesitant to have children with Olivia. Ethan says a lot of crap I don't like, but in some ways I get him with the having-children part in this case. It's all very sad.

My observations from the latest episode. There's no thread for it yet, so I'm putting it here for now. I'll move this when it opens up: KIM: 1. I enjoyed seeing Kim jealous at the praise Barry gets for being a decent parent. “What about me?” Kim seeths. 2. Kim suddenly claims that Barry treated her poorly during their marriage. Though possible, we never saw anything remotely to suggest that. 3. Funny to see the preview with Kim pretending to be shocked by Ken’s request to “take their relationship to the next level” (producers from The Bachelor having been called in to rehearse that line with marble-mouth Ken) when we all know they’ve likely been knocking boots since before she moved out. 4. Kim pretending to be involved in “the little girls” homeschool assignments. 5. It just occurred to me that Kim didn’t argue much about having to move out of the family home instead of Barry since it provided her a convenient love nest with Ken. MICAH: 1. Is this week’s biggest villain with his messing with Ethan’s head, something he clearly planned. 2. Threatens Ethan's man card: “You need to stand up to Olivia!” 3. Justifies his refusal to talk with Olivia by saying, “Olivia is selfish!” 4. Informs Ethan, “I don’t respect your wife. I used to respect your marriage, but not anymore. I wouldn’t ever want a marriage like yours with Olivia!” 5. Repeatedly pushes the narrative that Olivia is controlling and surely refused to let Ethan go to California. Despite the opposite. 6. Manipulates Ethan into meeting Moriah by deliberating not informing Ethan of her coming. (Always fun to get ambushed.) 7. Decides that the answer to the trauma of his parents’ divorce is to create family unity by causing a divorce between Ethan and Olivia. And drinking coffee from a mug that says “unity.” ETHAN: 1. Announces that “I’m not gonna put my family relationships on hold to save my marriage.” (Good luck keeping any marriage with that attitude.) 2. Expresses regret but took zero action. Even missed a flight due to action paralysis. 3. Realizes his marriage is on the rocks. Olivia gently suggests therapy. “Damn therapists,” Ethan scoffs.

I think it's possible for couples with opposite political or religious beliefs to stay happily married (see James Carville and Mary Matalin). But that only works if both parties not only respect and love each other, but prioritize their marriage above their differences, no questions asked. It really needs to be them against the world, with their contrary ideologies entering way far down the ladder of importance. Even with Olivia's evolution of beliefs, I believe Olivia and Ethan could have made their marriage work had it not been for the toxicity emanating from the greater Plath family. With Kim leading the army, they did their best to hurt and undermine Olivia with lies and manipulation. Ethan lacked the tools to manage the onslaught for very long, largely because of how his parents screwed up his childhood. They produced a man-child without skills of communication and conflict resolution, amongst a great many other deficiencies. (Ethan did have one bright-shining moment on the Plath driveway, but unfortunately that didn't last.) I also believe Olivia wouldn't have rejected her faith to such a degree had it not been for all the harm imposed upon her by her in-laws, scary people who used a toxic version of their faith to justify their assault on her. Ultimately, the Plath family succeeded in their goal to drive a wedge between Olivia and Ethan. Ethan made the decision to go team Plath instead of defending his wife. It was his choice. I'll never forget his terrifying Olivia in the car, doing snowy donuts despite her clear and reasonable protests. Ethan seemed to take pleasure in upsetting her. Once a marriage reaches that level of contempt, it's essentially dead.

Kim clearly manifests all the classic signs of Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD). She endured a childhood lacking in support which left her feeling vulnerable inside. She learned to control others as a means of compensation for herself. This great need to control others, along with manipulation, deceit, and a scary lack of empathy towards others consumes the life of someone with NPD. The greatest fear of someone with NPD is exposure. Just one person figuring out a narcissist poses a tremendous threat to the narc. This person must be silenced, lest they clue others into the narc's true self. The narc turns someone like Olivia into a scapegoat, heaping all the blame onto them in order to deflect attention from themselves. Oftentimes they are highly effective—at least for a while. But eventually other people figure out the narc, particularly if the scapegoat becomes available and the narc requires new victims. I suspect that is what will happen with Olivia leaving the family. The rest of the Plath family should watch out—any one of them could be Kim's next target. Other tidbits about NPD: 1. They are nearly incapable of change. 2. The universal prescribed course of action when dealing with someone with NPD is simply to get away from them as much as possible 3. They oftentimes have excellent social skills which they’ve finely honed in order to better manipulate people. 4. They use others around them as minions to unwittingly do their dirty work for them. These minions are called ‘flying monkeys” in the therapeutic world, a term originating from the Wizard of Oz. The study of NPD provides a fascinating rabbit hole for anyone interested. They could put Kim’s picture alongside the definition as a classic case. I strongly suspect by her words and actions that Olivia has received some excellent counseling from a therapist well-versed in NPD, and is wisely and carefully following that advice.

I just moved this from the previous episode thread to this newly-formed correct one: Such a mix of good and bad behavior here: Ethan-Good: Clearly explaining the truth about the credit card drama to Micah. Ethan-Good: Not letting Moriah off the hook when she refused to acknowledge her unfair and poor treatment of Olivia with the music and the credit card dramas. Ethan-Bad: Lying to Micah at first when Micah asked if Olivia was cool with him coming to the apartment. Ethan-Bad: Suggesting that everyone simply needed to just sit down at the table all together to air their grievances and then just shut about them forever after. (This is surely something no respectable counselor would ever advocate for this particular family. Kim with her NPD would have a field day with such an opportunity to severely harm Olivia.) Ethan-Bad: Discouraging Micah from agreeing to Olivia's request for a one-on-one talk to clear the air. Ethan-Bad: Failing to communicate with Olivia and not keeping her updated during his trip. Ethan-Bad: Entertaining the idea of ambushing Olivia by bringing Micah to their home despite her expressed wishes otherwise. Micah-Bad: Hearing the truth about the Moriah music and the credit card accusations but not letting it make an ounce of difference to him. Micah-Bad: Not having the courtesy or bravery to talk to Olivia privately. Micah-Good: Temporarily giving up his freaky eyebrow acting. Moriah-Good: Finally getting a clue that her bizarre leading with "I forgive you" to Ethan was a terrible idea. Moriah-Bad: Not taking full ownership of her unfairly accusing Olivia of stealing her music but instead just claiming she was confused. Moriah-Bad: Not taking any ownership about her part in the unfair social media posts but instead just deflecting and then resorting to crying to end the conversation. Olivia-Good: Calming trying to sort through all the horrible treatments of the Plaths and still being interested in trying to work it out with any of them. Olivia-Good: Standing her ground and keeping her boundaries. Olivia-Good: Recognizing that she's been the Plath family scapegoat for years. Clearly this girl continues to receive excellent therapy for her to understand the dynamics of this family so accurately at her relatively young age. Kim and Barry-Bad: Screwing up their children so thoroughly that none of them is capable of honest, fair and frank conversation as an adult.

Deleted

Yeah, I just loved that clip they replayed of Amber questioning Kim: "Why should Daddy have to move out when you're the one who wants to split?" Amber trembled with fear calling out the obvious there, but probably figured out she could get away with it while cameras rolled. Watching Kim squirm brought me joy. I suspect Amber got an ear-full privately from Kim about that afterwards. "You're not supposed to question Mommy and you're certainly not supposed to notice my utter hypocrisy of what I've preached to you your entire life compared to my current selfish and likely immoral actions." But Kim has always been a do-as-I-say and not a do-as-I-do kinda gal, hasn't she? Amber's likely learned to bide her time as a result. For now. I hope Amber's collecting notes for her tell-all book one day. She would go from the kid who was so ignored that until recently her name was "one of the little girls," to the daughter who noticed everything while everyone forgot she was in the room.

To my memory, Olivia never demanded they not attend the grave visit. The Plath siblings originally told Olivia that Kim would not be coming or invited. Olivia had a panic attack when she learned at the last minute that Kim was at the gravesite. Being confronted with a malignant narcissist who considers you their primary target will do that to a person. Olivia decided to wait in a car with the show's producer while sending Ethan down to join the family at the gravesite. Olivia never threatened or demanded anything of anybody. She was simply trying to protect herself from further abuse. Some of the family interpreted it much differently and pushed their false narrative with Olivia as their convenient scapegoat.

We're finally getting down to the nitty-gritty of what's really been happening here. 1. Moriah is grieving her parents' divorce and trying to figure out the causes. She is unfairly assuming some of that burden. "Maybe it's my fault for pulling away from them in the past," she thinks. That's too painful. Moriah shifts. "Hmm. Maybe I should instead blame Olivia for pulling me away. So, gosh, my family's implosion is really Olivia's fault! Yay!" 2. Moriah's recounting of her recent texting with Ethan to Lydia conveniently left out her "I forgive you" blame-shifting nonsense. 3. Moriah needs therapy desperately. 4. Micah told Ethan, "Olivia was manipulative and tried to force the siblings to take sides." No, Olivia found Kim too toxic of a person for her to share airspace with, likely on advice of a therapist well-versed in dealing with people with narcissistic personality disorder. Olivia never demanded anyone else not be around Kim. 5. Ethan gets credit for one thing, and that's clearing up this whole nonsense about Olivia stealing Moriah's music. I loved his 'Moriah couldn't figure it out on her own after she blew off Olivia and her expertise, so she just went to the darkest and most unfair assumption.'

I didn't start watching the show until season 2 and only saw clips of the first season up until now. I just went back and watched the first few episodes. I found it both sad and enlightening. Amazing how everything was already there while so much changed. Some observations: 1. Sad to see the tender love between Ethan and Olivia and the dedication and support Ethan had towards Olivia. 2. Ethan is and was such a man/child and nearly incapable of open communication, especially with difficult subjects. 3. Olivia showed an impressive level of maturity for her age, particularly given her own sheltered childhood. I am impressed by her confidence and intuitive nature about people. She also appears to me to have had excellent professional advice of some kind to help her navigate interactions with the Plaths, notably Kim. 4. Olivia was not the instigator in events that freaked out and threatened Kim and Barry, such as when Moriah invited Ethan and Olivia over during Barry and Kim's anniversary trip. Olivia was like, hmm, I don't know if we should, while Ethan cried let's go! 5. Micah expressed an interest in modeling and Moriah in music. Olivia listened and then helped guide them on a path towards those goals. They were utterly clueless how to proceed otherwise. 6. Olivia showed great patience and thoughtfulness to Micah, Moriah and Ethan. She didn't push her own agenda but just responded to what they said in a supportive way. 7. Olivia was direct though polite in expressing contrary opinions to Kim. Kim wasn't used to people ever questioning her, no matter what. Kim was threatened by Olivia and threatening to her. 8. Kim running over their toddler completely screwed up Kim. Barry apparently did whatever it took to appease Kim afterwards. It doesn't appear to me that either of them got any therapy that could have done them so much good. Instead it left them even more damaged and flawed, and their children suffered for it greatly. 9. Kim and Barry portray a close and loving connection and marriage in these early shows--not all that long ago. Either they were lying then or Kim is lying now. (I suspect that latter and that Kim has had her new honey for a lot longer than she claims.) 10. Nothing mattered more to Kim than control. I suspect she went into high gear with this after running over her child. Plus she's a narcissist and control's like oxygen to them. (Now nothing matters more than her new boyfriend.) 11. Kim's punishment of keeping Olivia and Ethan away from the younger siblings planted an early seed of damage to Ethan and Olivia's marriage. Kim knew that those relationships were important to Ethan and would cause him pain. It was her biggest card to play and she played it, no matter how many people it damaged. I suspect Kim feels satisfaction at their recent break-up announcement.

I've been puzzled why Barry seems so angry with Olivia (see: "brainwashing" comment.) Yet he's never spoken an ill word to the camera of Kim's betrayal and abandonment, something she's yet to adequately explain. (The "I just wanna be happy" doesn't cut it. I don't buy it for a minute.) Barry had actually been starting to win me over recently until that brainwashing snarking, and had been the slightly more rational one compared to Kim in all things-Olivia. So what happened? I think I've figured it out. Like Micah and Moriah, Barry has found a convenient scapegoat in Olivia. He may be blaming Olivia for introducing the ills of the world upon the purity of the Plaths. Her contamination surely brought sin into the camp, leading to the destruction of his marriage, even! It's all Olivia's fault! That would certainly be a less bitter pill for Barry to swallow than accepting that his wife just hooked up with a new honey and is lying about it.

The Plath siblings call it "circling the wagon" amidst Kim and Barry's divorce. I call it failure to launch in the real world, especially now that they no longer have Olivia to help them function with the most basic of life skills. They flail in a misguided fog without her while they look for stability by returning to the devil they know in their parents. Soon they'll all land back in Cairo, minus their scapegoat, Olivia. They'll continue in their misery, eventually discovering that it really had nothing to do with Olivia at all. But it will be too late. Because in the meantime, Olivia will be unleashed, freed, and thriving without them. I look forward to watching it, and I'm hardly one to take divorce lightly.

I have to say I enjoyed watching Kim squirm when her daughters didn't automatically support her relationship with Ken. I agree with a lot of you that Kim likely started up with Ken long before she claims. Kim never offered a legit reason for splitting with Barry beyond the selfish and juvenile, "I just need to make myself happy!" People don't normally break up long-term marriages for something like that. Usually the real cause is an affair, and that truth eventually comes out. I'm also wondering if Kim suggested Ken to Isaac's for his flight instructor. That would offer Kim a convenient means to explain their meeting (messing with Isaac's head be damned!) And it would explain her financial support of Isaac's plane purchase, too. That whole meeting of Kim and Ken on the tarmac was surely staged by Kim for Isaac and the cameras.

Ethan should have discussed further his thoughts and reasons with Olivia for wanting to drive back with Micah and come to some resolution together about it instead of just planning the Micah-drive behind her back. And then, much worse, he lied about it to Olivia... sigh. I would have been equally pissed had I been Olivia. That was unforgivable, and another blow dart to their relationship. A marriage without trust rarely lasts.

I blame Ethan and Olivia's problems on these factors: 1. Barry and (primarily) Kim created a toxic environment for their children growing up and doubled-down when they realized they couldn't control their new daughter-in-law to their satisfaction. They saw her as a threat to their freakish absolute power over their remaining kids at home. 2. Ethan sided with his wife, as he should, but his family shunned him for it. Moriah and Micah were so undone out by their parents' divorce and dysfunction that they ran back into the burning building of the Plath parents in a misguided attempt for safety. The devil you know and all that. Barry took the opportunity to further pit his children against Olivia (see "brainwashing" comment). 3. Ethan now misses his family (see shunning) but doesn't own the verbal tools to express it and work through his depression. Instead he lashes out at Olivia in a cruel and reckless manner (see donut spinning episode.) Such contempt and hostility towards a spouse generally kills a marriage. 4. Olivia, finally free from the Plath family up in Minnesota, grows and changes as young adults often do. (Olivia would have thrived in and loved the normal college experience.) She and Ethan no longer share the same values of faith and homeschooling, surely among other things. Neither of them are to blame in this aspect; it's just reality. Or upon further reflection, I can blame Kim and Barry for preventing their children from experiencing normal maturation and experiences in the real world during their teenage years. Olivia and Ethan were both somewhat emotionally stunted upon marriage and still had a lot of growing up to do as a result. My order of blame goes: Kim, Barry, Ethan, Moriah, Micah and Olivia.

I always find that pagan date argument interesting. The fact is that Christian religions picked these dates for their celebrations in order to help nullify the pagan parties happening then. They superseded them and made them forgotten and irrelevant. Much like how European Catholics of old built their churches atop the very foundations of mosques sites they'd conquered. I wish I could explain this to Barry.

Regarding all the unusual Mormon names, I've heard another reason for the creative spelling and such. The Mormon community has somewhat of an inbred quality to it with a lot of families sharing the same last names. The weird first name spellings help distinguish folks from one another.