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Dorne2.0

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Posts posted by Dorne2.0

  1. Also, If  I were Caroline I would be furious over this violation of my body and would terminate the pregnancy. She's probably less than 20 weeks, no? The twins' thalamus and neocortex are not fully formed or functioning yet. She could do it herself and heal immediately after. I know this is not going to happen because the actress is pregnant in real life. So, of course, she'll see it as a chance to experience motherhood, something, as a vampire, she wouldn't otherwise. But Rick and everybody's expectation that she'll carry the pregnancy to term, no questions if she wants to? I mean it's just her body, yo, no big deal. I also consider Valerie the victim of the forced abortion, she was very early in the pregnancy, right? She lost the potential person that was forming inside of her and that she wanted very much, but her murder of Oscar is not justified, however. It's only treated as such because killing vampires not part of the cast it's considered a-ok, see Kol and his entire sire line, killed by our heroes so they could get the cure already. 

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  2. The thing I hate the most is that this pregnancy was forced on Caroline and now it seems to be more about Rick and Stefan's feeling than hers. I would like someone to actually ask her if she's keeping these babies those awful Gemini forced on her. And they'll be destined to merge when they turn 22, no? Otherwise, the whole Coven (only the two of them) dies, no? The Gemini sucked so much. Having twins magic fight to the death and not even have the decency of raising them apart so they wouldn't have to merge with someone they loved and forcing their babies on women without their consent, and then cloak them so she wouldn't even know! They were the worst I'm glad Kai killed them.

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  3. Totes agrees, it's like the 14th century open bisexuals were all over the place, along with the muslim moors who like to move to Wales in order to appreciate the crappy environment. 

    Eh, fair enough, I just like when bisexual people are represented on tv. Most people will see someone in a homossexual relationship and assume they're gay, or see someone on a straight relationship and assume they're straight and I feel like bisexuality is often erased. That said, I do dislike that all bisexual characters on the show are villains and this character turned out in later episodes to be uhh... not actually only bisexual but 

     

    a full on pevert, what what he doing with those animals? Were those rats? Jesus fucking Christ. Why must tv ruin all bisexual characters? The other two bisexual characters (the twins and their half-brother are into incest.)  

     

  4. Hmm, for a moment the "ideological totalism" argument made me think, but then I thought, what if her opinion was that one race was less human than the other? I once broke up a friendship with a holocaust supporter, I mean she actually thought the murder of millions of people was justified to "save Germany from the Jews". I also stopped being friends with a guy because he thought women shouldn't have the right to abortion... I mean, I have friends who don't believe in abortion but know they have no right to stop women from getting it, they think is a sin but "it is between that person and God" and the law must be secular and they don't think they can force their believe on others, specially since body autonomy is involved. But the guy I stop being friends with thought he and other anti-choice people had the right to fight to change the law that allows women to have a choice... I can't be friends with people like that. Though I get there's a difference between being friends and trying to silence them. But I don't think anyone tries to silence racists or homophobes, we do have freedom of speech, but that doesn't mean we can't condemn that persons opinions and thoughts if they express and preach them. If someone was preaching that women or certain race was inferior I would speak out against their opinions as well, I would protest them giving speeches that contained those ideas and could influence others, after all, a majority's opinion has a great deal of effect in someone's lives.

     

    I mean, I have a friend who doesn't believe in evolution, but he doesn't fight so evolution won't be taught to kids, so he is harmless. So I guess the point is how does one's opinion affect other human beings, and with the violence transgender people face denying their status as the gender they identify with does contribute to the idea they are fake and sick, so, in my opinion does has an effect at how others view transgender people and may be a factor in how they treat them. I guess someone who agrees with her may harbor a hatred for transgender people and may discriminate against them, I mean, transgender people already have problems getting jobs and dating... Not to mention all the violence so many of them suffer as a result of transphobia.

     

    That said, Cait getting these awards is a joke, not because she's a transgender woman, but because she's not really that amazing human being. There are other women, cisgender and transgender, who deserve them more. But these awards aren't about recognizing the best people anyway, they are about publicity and media attention.

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  5. I would say Dan from "Becoming Us". Don't think it's fair to compare real people to fictional characters, otherwise Moura from transparent would come second. So, Carly from also BU come second. I don't know if Cai can be considered a good parent, especially to her four first Kids. And Kylie Jenner is dating an older guy and we never saw her disapprove of it, did it? Or of her countless surgeries, the girl looks 30, Jeez.

  6. Another new word.. Please explain queer gender. Is it one word or two? Thanks

    I read the term refers to someone who identifies with both genders, male and female, or doesn't identify with either gender. I never met someone like this but they are out there, like the person who disappeared in Charlotteville in 2012 DaShad Laquinn Smith, who the media identifies as transgender woman but who, according to family, identified with both genders. I remember when the Hannah Graham case brought the fact that there were a lot of missing woman at the area at the time. Also, some people in the LGBT community prefer queer to gay, lesbian or bisexual, (and some transgender people may also refer to them as genderqueer? Not sure about this part), I know a bisexual woman who says bisexual doesn't come out as naturally as queer and she preferred to refer to herself as queer, as in taking the word from the bigots. All this I got from reading so If someone has more knowledge please feel free to correct me. 

     

    Edit: Sorry, it' genderqueer and GLAAD advises one to only use the term if one is actually genderqueer:

     

    Genderqueer

    A term used by some people who experience their gender identity and/or gender expression as falling outside the categories of man and woman. They may define their gender as falling somewhere in between man and woman, or they may define it as wholly different from these terms. The term is not a synonym for transgender or transsexual and should only be used if someone self-identifies as genderqueer.

     

  7. As far as I know, Caitlyn Jenner never legally adopted the Kardashian children. However, she was in their lives for more time than their biological father, Robert Kardashian. Kris married Caitlyn Jenner just one month after her divorce from Robert Kardashian became legal. The children were very young at the time of their marriage so it's more natural for Caitlyn to refer to any of the 4 Kardashian children as daughters and son.

    Yeah, I consider my stepmom my real mom she never adopted me either officially, but always loved me as her daughter, my biological mom is alive but was never a parent to me, so I don't see the issue with Cait referring to her step-children as her children.

    As far as pronouns go, I think Cait transgender is a baby in the transgender community and hopefully she'll learn and I hope she doesn't end up all alone, I really do. Also, there are people who identify with both genders or neither. I remember a genderqueer person that disappeared in Charlottesville and according to her family, she accepted both her male name and the female name, also both pronouns. both genders or neither. Anyway, I know that's not what you mean, but Cait not following GLAAD guidelines doesn't excuses anyone doing the same, it's about respecting the transgender community as a whole. I go by GLAAD guidelines too, to the point I stopped referring to myself as "bi" and started referring to myself as a cisgender bisexual woman. I thought about it and the term bisexual sounds more serious and lots people and the media have treated being bisexual as a joke or a "phase" or a lie gay men use to stay half in the closet and women to seem sexy, fun etc. It is not, I have been in love with a woman before and find many women attractive, so I liked that part of GLAAD guidelines. Also, I never minded the term cis or cisgender, and I started using transgender rather than transwoman or transmen because I have seen one person uncomfortable with the reduced version and I rather don't make minorities uncomfortable, me being a privileged cisgender woman now in a straight relationship.

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  8. Caitlyn Jenner has not earned her fame and notoriety through her intelligence. I stop short of saying she's just shy of being only of average intelligence. The truth is that Caitlyn Jenner is not a deep thinker to say the least. She hasn't thought out all the avenues which transitioning would eventually lead her and right now she seems to be enjoying her moment only and not really prepared for the days to come when the world just doesn't care about her big transition anymore.

     

    I am worried about Cait. She cannot afford to alienate the GBLT community, I hope her family and friends still support her after the cameras go, one day she won't be such a novelty, as you said. I guess she will always have "paid friends", but her conservative friends will hardly have her back, and I really hope she doesn't end up abandoned and driven to suicide or to detransition to try get back her male privilege. That would be both a disaster to the transgender representation and would give bigots more material to oppose transition. Many transgender people lose their family and friends, their jobs and I think transphobia is the reason for many of the suicides. I mean you want this your whole life, but when you get it, many people lose everything else. Many of the people who detransitioned (I read that article and even a guy's website) seem to depressed at the loss of their family, job and community support, some seemed like "ex-gays" who had religious reasons, and a few were wrongly diagnosed and given the surgery. And their seeming agenda of trying to stop other people from transitioning doesn't sit right with me, many are happy with it, I believe it's the transphobia that makes their life hard even after the surgery. And that's why the support of the GLBT community and GLAAD is more important to her than she thinks. I think Boylan is so kind to Caitlyn because she realizes the media will go away someday, and many people may be only as tolerant as the cameras force them to be.

     

    Edit: removing wrong information about Kylie's graduation.

  9. It's best for me not to watch the Jazz show.   Too many mixed emotions.   But I know what you mean.

    I just want to say they don't focus only on the negatives, on the contrary. Jazz is happy and so is her family, She is a very strong, intelligent, happy girl. But I can see your point, it could be triggering for some and many people has mixed feelings about it, mostly people concerned about her well being after so much exposure. Their family seem to want to be at the front of the transgender fight for civil and equal rights though and seem to genuinely want to help other kids like her. 

  10. That's quite a reply, Dorne2.0.  Thank you for taking the time to commit it all to the page.

     

    I give you credit for not immediately ruling out the possibility of being with a transgender person.    But at the same time, I could not condemn anyone who flat out said no.   In one of the episodes, Jenner seemed taken aback that a young man said he would not wish to be with a transgender woman, and I recall reading some comments afterwards which were critical of his position.

     

    I think it's asking a lot of someone who has always been attracted to cisgender women to suddenly start dating a transgender woman if there is no pre-existing attraction to transgender people or interest in bisexuality.

     

    No matter how successfully a transgender woman approximates the appearance of a cisgender woman, there will always be certain "tells" that indicate the gender into which they were born, be it voice, size of hands or feet, breadth of shoulders, thickness of waist, skin texture, hair patterns, comportment, gait, femininity, even diction .... and of course more intimate things, especially if they have not had sexual reassignment surgery.   Any or all of these can signal to a partner, consciously or subliminally, that the person they are with is, in some immutable ways, different from other members of the gender they present as.

     

    While one may possibly be open-minded enough to get around it mentally (and more power to them if they can), biological reactions could prove a different matter, and completely out of their hands.    No matter how open-minded you may be, the heart wants what the heart wants.   I don't think anyone should be criticized if they can't make a romantic leap from cisgender people to transgender people.   It doesn't mean they're transphobic, it just means they're not wired that way.

     

    I'm not trying to hurt anyone's feelings or cause discord.   I'm transgender and am simply sharing my perspective.

     

    Thank you for your kind and understandable response. I support transgender rights 100%, the right to use bathrooms with the gender they identify with and so on. I loved Jaz Jennings and Chaz Bono and think they are much better representatives than Caitlyn, even though they are both privileged as well, they don't seem as oblivious or self-centered as Cait. (Her conversation to Ellen about gay marriage, really? Didn't she think that would go well in the LGBT community? I hope Candis said something). Jazz's Family seems very well off and most of all loving and I wish every transgender kid had that. I made my mom watch "I am Jazz" and she cried when the Jazz read the youtube death threat online.

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  11. I have a question for anyone who feels up to it:  If your husband confided in you that he wished to transition to a woman and your only knowledge of the transgender experience was I Am Cait (as is the case for many Americans) what would your reaction be?   Would your instinct be to help?  Or to run in the opposite direction?   Based on what you've seen on this show, that is.

    What would you do millennium? Just curious because the two of us seem the only ones willing to touch that subject.

  12. I have a question for anyone who feels up to it:  If your husband confided in you that he wished to transition to a woman and your only knowledge of the transgender experience was I Am Cait (as is the case for many Americans) what would your reaction be?   Would your instinct be to help?  Or to run in the opposite direction?   Based on what you've seen on this show, that is.

    OMG, Millennium, this question is so hard.  I tried answering it many times and deleted it. I tried to answer this as honestly and I hope it doesn't offend or hurt anyone, I'm especially worried about talking about genitals on this forum, and the rules, and I don't want to trigger anyone. The rules are of course right so because it's no one's business how anyone genitals look... except their lover. First, watching Cait would have nothing to do with the decision.

     

    Second, If I was with someone and happy sexually and then they revealed they were transgender, I'd be fine, I don't think it would change anything. If I'm attracted to someone and they revealed they are transgender I would want to try but I'd be scared to hurt them if the clothes came off and I couldn't do it. I mean I even have beauty standards to genitals and I am very genital orientated. I kinda blame my OCD and internalized ideas of what attractive is. I'm a millennial brainwashed by Hollywood person. I am borderline anorexic, I have a certain aversion to body hair and I remove all of mine beneath the eyebrows with Laser Hair Removal. My husband does the same, mostly to please me, I mean, he was already a swimmer who competed in college so it wasn't that hard to him, and he loves that I love his smooth body. Also, we're non-monogamous and a lot of girls are into it, he is fit and smooth and I love the way he looks and feels.

     

    As for someone you are already married to deciding to transition, be the spouse male or female, that's another story. I am married to a man. I'm am also bisexual and have been in love with a woman. I would have been happy to marry her at the time we were together, I loved her (and was devastated when she broke up with me). I could easily see myself married to a woman just as easily as with a man. But while been attracted to men and women, I'm not attracted to all women or all men, I'm shallow and I'm ashamed to say this, I'm attracted to conventionally attractive people. I've only been attracted to gender-conformative people in my life, I was only attracted to femme women and non-effeminate men (I say this because “masculine man” may bring the image of huge bodybuilders who would treat me as damsel and I'm a feminist so no thank you, also I'm not into men that are too hairy or frat boys or jocks into football or basketball, because I think there's a whole culture there that I am uncomfortable with.). But If a partner, male of female, after we were together, decided to transition, I would be supportive and would not run the other way, but as far as staying romantically together with that person, it depends on if I was still sexually attracted to them after the transition. I can't say I would still be attracted to a partner, male or female, who I've fallen in love with before transition and then went to all this changes and surgeries. I mean, I loved my GF, her feminine body, her breasts and all of her, just as I love my husband, his smell, his voice, his penis. To fall for someone, to me, means fall for all they are, and I couldn't guarantee I'd still be sexually attracted to them after the surgeries and changes, which to me, is essential in a marriage. Otherwise, I would hope we would be close friends, and I would certainly try to help them to transition, probably as a friend. I'm only 27 and don't have kids and don't plan to have any. I'm also a very sexual person and have OCD. I don't even like body hair down there. I have a feeling all the surgeries would turn me off. I read the HP article about spouses who stayed, and one of them said there was no sex in the relationship, another seemed to be happy sexually (she was a lesbian woman married to transgender man) and the rest never mentioned their sex lives (as is their right since it is not our business). Cait said 30% of their spouses stayed and the longer the couple were together the higher the chances they would stay, so I think my youth and the weight I put on my sex life with my husband makes a lot of difference. I wouldn't expect my husband to stay with me if I transitioned either, he is straight, he's not attracted to men. I wish I could say I was more evolved and less shallow and set on what my partners should look like, but I'm not. Maybe it's my OCD and my fear of change, maybe it's internalised prejudices, like lookism.

     

    But as we can see, many spouses choose to stay and there are many different people than me out there. Not that I judge people who leave, especially if it's about their sexual orientation. You are attracted to what you are attracted too and for many people, it's not transphobia but their sexual happiness in the relationship that makes them leave.

     

    Just wanted to say I realize this is my problem, and I would never even get pregnant out of fear of what would do to my body. Because being bisexual, I feel I should be attracted to my husband if he transitioned, and I feel horrible, like I am an awful person that I would probably not stay, but I would certainly not run away and always be there for him platonically. While people who are straight, gay or lesbian would have more understandable reason to not stay. Also, part of my OCD is that I hate being lied to, very much, and that's because I come from a family of misogynist men who cheated and lied to their spouses, and I think I would feel betrayed by the lie to. The reason I'm non-monogamous is because of my family male models when you trust someone so much - and find out they were betraying your grandma (my grampa was more present than my dad, and my bio mom left so my grandparents were my first parents until my dad married and moved out with me). And a lot of uncles, my dad is a controlling sexist man, and to be honest, I always thought I would end up with a woman because I had problems trusting men, and in my marriage the rule is honest always. Even if you break the rules, come clean immediately. My OCD has probably something to do to how inflexible I am. 

     

    Lastly, if my husband did no changes to his body and just cross-dressed sometimes, I would be fine with interacting with this other self, as long as it wasn't 24/7 and it didn't interfere with our sex life. I don't think that would diminish my attraction to him.

     

    Edit: spelling/grammar/repeating things.

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  13. And another question I have is about the family - if they are on board with their support where were Brody and Brandon around the Espy awards? Why dont we see Caitlyns bio children interacting with his mother and sisters? Why isnt she ever seen doing anything other than something for herself  and interacting with her children that she is so concerned about hurting? This really makes that whole "family is everything" line she likes to use seem like a bunch of lies as well. Actions dont support the words.

    From what I understand, they are supportive of the transition but not the show and her son Brandon who has been on KUWTK doesn't like that she chose the same production crew that does KUWTK. They were at the Espy's but their faces had to be blurred on he show. The oldest daughter, in particular, stood out because she was behind Kendall and Kim and you can see a woman's blurred face there.

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  14. I think a lot of the transgender people on the show are excited about telling their stories and the reality of transgender people, so Cait's show is an opportunity to give more visibility to transgender people, Boylan, Chandi, Candis, Blossom, and highlight the issues the community faces. If the price is to tolerate Cait and pretend she's a good friend, maybe they are willing to pay it. The conversation that transwomen often have to do sex work because people won't employ them, per example, humanizes them for those who never thought about it and just saw them as freaks naturally drawn to prostitution (not that I find anything wrong with prostitution), but a lot of people sure do. 

     

    Also highlighting the difficulty in finding love interests who take them seriously and don't see them as sex objects/experiments. And Candis story was really touching to me, a lot of women put up with abuse for a lot of time, and the difficulties of dating or finding love as a transgender people may make them want to stick to someone who wanted them even more. Some people need love in their life and a relationship to be happy and feel very lonely without it. Others are fine or even prefer being single. I just want to say that Candis story touched me, and it makes me sad that she, as beautiful as she is, couldn't find a good man who wanted a relationship with her and didn't abuse her. 

     

    One thing, do you think transphobes would be more okay with a transwoman dating a transman, since they are XY and XX, and in their minds, that defines gender, so maybe they would see as a straight relationship or they would still hate them for how they dressed, identified, and may have had SRS? Just a thought that came to me. Of course they would still hate them, what am I thinking, these people have everyone who doesn't live how they think all people should live.

     

    Edit: typos.

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  15.  I know many young people could say "I don't want biological children ever" and then change their mind once they hit 30 years old. I never wanted kids until my late 20's then I really wanted kids! 

     

     I'm cisgender, but I never wanted kids, the mere idea of pregnancy repulses me. I'm an anti-natalist and so is my husband. He has had a vasectomy, he's past 30 and I'm approaching, still hate children. We enjoy our childfree life. In the case of these kids, I think the fear and possible suicidal depression over going through puberty as the wrong gender is worse (see Leelah Acorn), so they can get an egg or sperm from a relative or adopt. 

  16. If you think alleviating the symptoms of gender dysphoria is never a matter of life and death, just listen to how distressed Jazz sounds when she discusses the possibility of experiencing male puberty.  Read the last note of Leelah Alcorn.  Read about the alarmingly high rate of suicide among transgender youth.  

     

    Thank you for the Leelah Alcorn mention. I remember her story and her depression for not being allowed to take the hormones and for having to go through male puberty. That's what really should settle the matter of allowing these children to take hormones because they might become suicidal otherwise. 

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  17. I like they brought attention to the division that has existed between the GLB and the T community. I am bisexual and while I had a transwoman friend, many of my gay friends didn't like her and she didn't hang out with them either. To be honest, most of my inner circle were femme bisexuals or lesbians as am I and my ex-girlfriend. I think one girl dated a butch girl, but many of the other girls looked down on her for being too masculine and possibly queergender... My transwoman friend hung out with mostly straight women like my sister who considered her gay, even as she insisted she was a woman, not a gay man. She had the support of her family, was very privileged and has now fully transitioned. She is very happy and owns a Club in another city now. My sister continues to refer to her by her former name, sighs. No wonder she unfriended her on FB. I am glad this is being addressed so we can advance and work together on trans issues now. I also have begun watching Jazz and I'm happy the "T" in LGBT is no longer invisible. She's such a lovely girl.

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  18. I agree that it can be quite confusing and I must admit that I'm not the most eloquent writers so my posts can make for poor explanations.  The language does matter a great deal because saying something in different ways can change the intent. The way you have worded this - "many boys and men won't want to date a woman who still has a male appendage" - divorces the comment from being  a phobic one.  It focuses more on individual attractions that people might have.  We all feel different things, some people are attracted to large breasts, some to hair color, others to height, a lot of people have requirements about what genitals should look like (there are lots of ways that vulvas are formed! plus all the gazillion grooming habits), and more.  It's not something that can really be faulted or judged.

     

    Warning: TMI ahead. I want to thank you for saying this because the question "am I transphobic?" has always haunted me, because I'm bisexual and have only been with cisgender people, because I'm very --uhh-- genital orientated, to the point my husband has laser hair removal around on his crotch, and I despite being very "oral" I have decided not to go down on people simply by seeing their genital area and not finding it good-looking enough. I have a long term friend who is a transwoman and because of her particularly I have been ashamed about this. So when I look ant Candis, if her v looks as good as her, I could date her, she's beautiful. I have a lot of body issues (borderline anorexia, obsession with thinness), so I guess I project that expectation on others. Please don't judge me, I'm a Hollywood brainwashed millennial with OCD and obsession with looks (a lookist I guess, but only in regards to my sex/romantic life), but at least I'm not a transphobe. I've always considered my friend a woman while my sister considers her gay, refers to her as a "him", and called me a slut when I came out as bisexual.

     

    I've only watched the first episode but when those boys called Jazz the "T" slur I wanted to cry. She's such a beautiful girl, I hope this show helps enlighten people on the subject. 

  19. I can tell you that this is where many, many, people feel very confused and honestly don't understand.

     

    Okay, so a person with female gender is born into a male body. They want to live their life entirely as a girl/woman. They are very upset at the thought of going through male puberty, to the point where they receive drugs to block puberty and then estrogen to encourage the body to look as female as possible.

     

    But if this person is truly a woman, why would they want to keep a penis??

     

    It's a serious question. I'm not talking about someone who can't get surgery due to fear, or cost, or any other reason out of their control.

     

    I'm talking about someone who insists they are female in every way but is content to have male genitalia and does not WANT to have it removed and replaced with a vagina. It seems like having that organ in place would be very upsetting to someone who thinks of themselves as a woman. Wouldn't it? I am a woman myself, and yes, that would be very upsetting to me.

     

    It's a serious question and I can tell you, this is the part that a lot of folks do NOT understand. You can kick me off the boards again if you want, but I'd appreciate it (and so would many others) if someone would answer this one.

     

    I'm a cisgender woman so I may not be the best one to answer it. I have a friend who is a transwoman. Since I've known her, her early teens, she identifies with being a woman. A woman born in the wrong body. Surgery can change your outer looks, but she has always been a woman inside, so, in a way, surgery doesn't matter to some trans people, because they were born in the wrong body with the "soul" of another gender and surgery is a big step to make. As I understand until recently it involved giving up orgasms. These days they have improved the procedures so much, as I understand, the people who go to surgery can have orgasms after the operation, but still, it is a surgery, no surgery is without risks. Some people think hormone treatment and top surgery are enough, their genitals are not as important. In MTF surgery especially, the appearance of the genital thereafter is not always -uhh- perfect. 

     

    Look at this guy's video on youtube, he's a transman explaining why he chose not to go do bottom surgery:

  20. Dammit. I am strongly against incest. I don't ship on The Borgias, I don't ship it on Game of Thrones, but dammit if I wasn't mad at Kai for sleeping with Emily and planning to have a relationship with her. I guess he was trying to listen to his mother and do the right thing, but Lili Simmons is the sexiest woman on TV right now and one of the most beautiful in my opinion, and she can act, she showed it mostly last season but let's not forget it! I love her and Kai is so sexy. This show is very equal-opportunity soft porn and to a bi girl like me, I am addicted. You got me again Alan Ball. Cana is good for sex scenes but other than that, boring. And Kai with the body and the bad guy with a sensitive side is getting to me. He's the most attractive male in the show in my opinion, followed by Gordon (RIP). With Siobhan gone (RIP and fuck you show), there's only Rebecca and Kai for me. I think after such sheltered life she's gone deep on the other end... Anyway, it's not like Proctor was involved in raising her, and she is genuinely attracted to him, and if he's gonna kill every male she dares to have sex with, he better provide her the peen. He wants her to be celibate forever if he's not sleeping with her? I don't think so. He was obsessed with her last season, I guess his mother's death made him feel guilty about their relationship? 

    Shame on me. I'll be on the shallow corner justifying uncle-niece incest because she didn't grow up around him and made the first move and they are both so attractive to me. Damn you Allan Ball. Damn you (and thanks for Lili Simmons).

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