Churchhoney

He's not that smart about sports either. Just sayin. Exactly. A married man, with children of his own, who, until very recently, held a highly influential position in which he potentially wielded influence to mold the opinion of millions and potentially shape public policy -- much of it involving families, ethics and morality -- at the national level. Yeah. I think that's a person who probably ought to do his own interviews.

Dobson was kind of the philosophical father of the FRC. He spearheaded a movement in the late 70s to get conservative Protestants more involved in lobbying in Washington on family-values issues. FRC was the fruit of that. His involvement wasn't day to day but as its chief intellectual architect and probably, at the time, the most influential and well-known spokesperson for its cause.

Yeah, this is what I think will happen, too. Plus, when people really don't want to answer a question, they just don't answer it. They can just say something out of left field and she'll be helpless. An interview's not a court of law. Nobody will force them to answer. And if she keeps repeating a question, they can just keep giving non-answers until she gives up or everyone falls to the floor in exhaustion. There really is no way to make people truly address questions if they don't want to. And the Duggars are past masters at repeating meaningless bullshit as if it means something. So even if she keeps going after them on some point, eventually she'll just have to go with one of their meaningless bullshit answers, I think. Otherwise, she won't have an interview to show at all.

Well, Ronnie Floyd might be called progressive compared to the Duggars, but not by much, I'd say. He's every bit as committed to the exact same "gay agenda" rhetoric as they are, for example. That said, it's true that he heads actual churches that have congregations and play a lot of music and so on. The church probably does represent a compromise between Jill and Derrick -- and it is nice to see them trying to meet in the middle.

I've read it in various places, but I'm not convinced it's really an accurate statement. I think we know that they didn't allow the kids to actually enroll in an outside school, even an online one. According to the Arkansas homeschooling group, there is one way to get a diploma other than one simply devised by your family, and that's to participate in a larger homeschooling group, submit records to them, follow some of their rules and get a diploma issued by them. That still wouldn't be a diploma officially issued by the state department of education, though. I suppose it's possible that the Duggars registered Jessa's studies with one of these groups, but if they did nobody seems to have heard about it. Here's what this group, The Education Alliance, says: "High School Graduation, Diplomas, and College "1. If we home school through high school, how does my child graduate and obtain a high school diploma? "Answer: Several home school support organizations, including The Education Alliance, offer high school diplomas and graduation ceremonies. Most home school students participate in some type of high school graduation and receive a home school high school diploma. In addition, The Education Alliance offers free transcripts to home schoolers who submit a list of the courses they have completed. Some employers and certain institutions of higher learning require students who graduate from a home school to pass a General Educational Development (GED) test." https://arkansashomeschool.org/index.php/free-info/faq/ "The Education Alliance provides a transcript record keeping service for Arkansas home school families on our mailing list. Home school parents provide us with the necessary information regarding courses taken, grades earned, and credits given. This information is entered into our computer and printed on secure paper. It is signed by The Education Alliance Director, Jerry Cox, and it is sealed with The Education Alliance Seal. "We provide multiple copies of the transcript if requested and we will mail the transcript to the school of your choice.... "Transcripts are free with a donation of any amount to the Education Alliance." https://arkansashomeschool.org/index.php/services/high-school-transcript/ ETA this: And here's what the state of Arkansas says, and I think it means that, no, Jessa doesn't have a state-issued high school diploma: "No diploma is provided by school districts, education service cooperatives, or the Arkansas Department of Education for students enrolled in home school." http://www.arkansased.gov/public/userfiles/Learning_Services/Charter%20and%20Home%20School/Home%20School-Division%20of%20Learning%20Services/FACT_SHEET.pdf

Really? Wow. That pie couldn't have been worth a tremendous amount in the first place, really, given what books earn these days. And they had to pay something to the two ghostwriters -- Charlie Richards and David Waller. I can see them paying Waller only a few thousand or so, since he may have come on board as kind of an ATI publicity agent to make sure that it was adequately infused with correct Gothardisms, in which case he might have considered the ATI boost from the book part of his compensation. But Richards actually writes for a living (as a media writer of the children's series Life at the Pond, among other things) and most likely did virtually all of the actual writing in the book, so I'd think he would want at least a minimal professional-looking rate -- $10,000, maybe? -- even though he may have participated because he really believed in the Duggar brand and wanted to help promote it. Then if JimBob got a cut as well? And then the remainder had to be split four ways, with self-employment taxes (I guess? unless JimBob has a really really crafty tax lawyer?) taken out? I wonder whether they'd think it was worth it to even do another multi-author book, given the small amount each probably received from that one. I suppose we'll find out soon enough. If they're going to do another book, I'd expect Jill and Jessa to launch one in another year or so (fewer authors to split the cash among), once they've got a couple of years of marriage and maybe a kid and a half apiece to use as subject matter.

Oh, good point. I missed that one, but now that you mention it an example that a family member of mine was involved in comes to mind right away.

Maryland has pretty high car-insurance rates, 11th in the nation this year according to this. http://www.insure.com/car-insurance/car-insurance-rates.html And I thought I'd remembered that PG county, where Josh lives, have had among the highest. Just looked it up -- Oxon Hill listed as having the third highest car-insurance rates in the state in 2014: $1,901.04 http://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/insurance/2014/04/14/average-md-maryland-car-insurance-rate/ Even a high salary gets eaten up with prices like that. Josh being Josh, though, he may have taken the price tags as evidence of his top-guy status.

Actual scholars and serious thinkers, avert your eyes from this post. I expect you'll be rightly appalled by my fourth-grade take on the good discussion that's going here, but I'm trying to work out for myself more of what differentiates cults from belief systems we consider legitimate. And I guess I think that iIt's generally not the beliefs but the messed-up people that make religions, philosophies, and political, economic, personal-psychology and other belief systems into cults and, thus, into problem, I think. At the core, pretty much all such things are serious attempts to make sense of the world and develop and promulgate good and useful ways to live. Because that's what most people want to do. But it's also clear that a person with out-of-control power-and-greed urges can take pretty much any belief system that's ever been invented and turn it into a tool to work their will and hurt and enslave others. That's when they turn into cults, as power-hunters turn up the volume on characteristics of the belief system that will play into other people's weaknesses and fears and use their charisma to reel others in. This is where I guess cults like ATI fall. They piggyback on other belief systems -- in this case, Protestant belief -- but constitute a take on them designed to bring out lockstep marching, blind adherence to ideas and other dangerous human tendencies. Then, of course, you've got some people who create belief systems for the sole -- or at least the primary -- purpose of serving their own power-and-greed urges. Those are the ones that are cults from the outset and altogether, like Scientology. Even those, though, usually have some good core ideas and aspirations, because you need those to draw other people in, and the people who devise cults are generally not stupid. I would bet that, for Joseph Smith, Mormonism was this kind of cult from the get-go. I could be utterly off base and he may have really believed in those tablets, but given what I've read I expect that, deep down, he really invented it to get power, and maybe money, for himself. But it's a really interesting example to me, because he also infused it with some good and useful stuff -- and enough of those for his cult to persist and spread and actually (I think I would argue) become an actual religion that's lasted for nearly 200 years now, not dependent on a charismatic leader.

I'm pretty sure that they did ask for some gift cards on their registry -- that doesn't mean they necessarily got any, though.

He probably figured that at he had earned the right to have surroundings suitable to his greatness.

The two downsides of where the house is are the schools being a little chancy -- but they had no reason to care -- and lack of Metro access, which I suppose people who'd never lived around much public transportation would care about either. For a furnished house of that size, big garage, river view, furnishings -- somewhere between $3000 and $3500 would be right on the money, given the pluses and minuses, I would say. For something that size closer in or close to transportation or in a top school system, you'd pay way way more. So I think they basically made the tradeoffs to get what mattered to them.

I think I read somewhere that they had a five-bedroom -- maybe 3000 sq ft or more? I hope I'm not hallucinating this. I suppose they figured they needed a lot of guest rooms for the nannies. ETA: Okay, I read it in the Daily Mail. 5 bedrooms, four baths. 3300 sq ft http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3102594/Goodbye-Washington-D-C-hello-Siloam-Springs-Disgraced-Josh-Duggar-s-secret-plan-escape-50k-Arkansas-house-child-abuse-scandal-ruins-propects-political-career.html They also say it was furnished (at least partly). I believe that I read some place else, a while ago, that it also has a river view. So that would make it a little more desirable, too. I'd say the $3500 was about right.

I've barely watched the show (despite my willingness to comment on it ... ), so I'm asking: Is there much evidence of humor in any Duggars at all, except for the childish mean tricks that I've heard a lot about (trashing cars, running down cats) and JimBob's yuck yucks over things he thinks are jokes? .... I can't see that there would be much. Humor seems to require some sense that things are one way but could be otherwise. And in this particular rigid miniculture thinking that way about anything doesn't seem to be allowed.

Exactly. After the news came out, I had the thought, Wouldn't be great if the Browns reached out to the girls? But their points of view are so different that I doubt the message would make it through the Duggars' cult wall of suspicion. Too bad, if that is the case.

Go, Browns. When they speak, you know they've carefully considered things.

Yeah, that seems likely.

Indeed. Way more intellectual! ... I figured he wouldn't have any Gothard influences because of that. Actually, though, I think it upsets me even more that the SAHD movement seems so strong in those more educated groups as well.

I don't envy Megyn Kelly this get. There really won't be any way to do this right. And the problem won't just be the crap she'll get from tons of people no matter HOW she approaches it. The Duggars are going to be incredibly frustrating and infuriating people for anyone to try to do an actual serious interview with. I'm not sure either JImBob or Michelle even knows how to make a non-canned, so-vague-it's-meaningless statement about anything any more. So Kelly's going to end up with a big fat hour of nothing, no matter what she tries to do, i expect. No interviewer wants that to happen, even if they're fervent fans of the interview subjects -- and while she may be a fan, I doubt that she's fervent.

You're most welcome. Love sharing my obsessions!

I agree. And what premise for a revised show could actually reel viewers in? "A couple of pretty uninteresting young couples with one kid each cope with the same stuff everybody else does?" Huh? Doesn't have anything like the appeal of -- "How do you manage life with 14, 15, 16, 17, 18 ,19 kids?'""" Now that was a premise. I also think a lot of people have liked this show because it would appeal to their children and was "safe" for kids to watch. (I personally find that watching massive misogyny is NOT really safe for kids, but I think most people missed that part, and I do get the rest of what these parents were probably thinking) But I don't see that the "young adults" show would be nearly so kid- or parent-appealing. So there goes another chunk of potential audience.

Yes. And I expect they know that about the other most troubling issue. Don't think we'll hear much mention of the "one of them was five" (while the molester was 14) part either.

Well, this won't help on a plane and it's not a book but a website, but have you ever looked at Mormon Stories? http://mormonstories.org/ Really excellent website full of life stories and analysis shared with the a 5th-generation Mormon and psychology grad student by mainstream Mormons -- including currently practicing Mormons, Mormon theologians, many who've struggled with problems between them and the church while staying in it, and many who've left or are in the process of leaving. Extra Reality TV connection: One of the stories -- described in a lengthy (four-hour-plus, I think) series of interviews -- is that of Benjy Schwimmer -- winner of the second season of the Fox show So You Think You Can Dance, who describes his long struggle to reconcile being a devoted Mormon and being gay. A sholarly book on Mormons that I found really interesting is The Angel and the Beehive, by Armand Mauss, a scholar of religion and sociology and a practicing Mormon. The book explores Mormon history (and present) with respect to the church's attempts to assimilate but also to back away from mainstream culture. Mauss sees that dynamic as key to the study of all religions -- how much are you in the world and how much separate from it. -- And it's certainly an interesting dynamic in the Duggar saga, too! Literature scholar Harold Bloom has a book about the religions with U.S. origins that I find really fascinating (but that I think most religion scholars think is the nutty ravings of an uninformed amateur!). It's called The American Religion and it expounds his theory that the American impulse is toward gnostic beliefs. His theory probably is the ravings of an uninformed amateur, but as another uninformed amateur I really enjoyed the basic look he gives at the many faiths that have originated in the United States. Another book that I enjoyed that's mostly about the made-or-remade-in-America religions is Religious Outsider and the Making of Americans by R. Laurence Moore. He writes about the tense relationships between the mainstream Protestants who long dominated this country and the other groups that have come along as religious-minority upstarts -- including not just the usually examined ones, such as the Mormons, but more recent groups as well, such as the Nation of Islam. If you're interested in original sources, there's a wonderful book compiled and edited by an actual religion scholar, Laurie Maffly-Kipp, called American Scriptures: An Anthology of Sacred Writings. It includes interesting founding documents from sects like Christian Science as well as more individual "scriptural" writings by Americans, like Jefferson's re-do of the New Testament. (Wonder how the Gothard Seminar books would fit in here? ) Another book related to this topic but more about philosophies than religions (although Christian Science gets a lot of attention in it and some of the other philosophies have been cultlike) is One Simple Idea: How Positive Thinking Reshaped Modern Life, by Mitch Horowitz. It's an interesting exploration of the "self-help" nature of a lot of the beliefs and groups -- including Prosperity Gospel churches ant the like -- that have arisen since the 19th century and are super-common today. Gothard's stuff has appealed to many in part because of a self-help dynamic -- i.e., do these things and your life and your children's lives will be great. Interesting dynamic between religion as a belief system about the meaning and nature of life and of the universe and a belief system about WHAT IT CAN DO FOR ME!!! (which I guess is where a lot of the legalism comes in...) There are a lot of interesting books on Scientology, which is a current fascination of mine. Beyond Belief, by Jenna Miscavige, niece of current Scientology leader David Miscavige, is one that I've recently enjoyed. It details the life of somebody born into the group and who eventually left it. It has some similarities to The Book of Mormon Girl, by Joanna Brooks, which I also enjoyed. Interesting takes on the long, slow painful process of leaving something that's woven into the core of your being. There are lots of good books on Scientology. Going Clear, by Lawrence Wright, on which the recent movie was based, is a pretty good one.

Seriously. Makes you wonder whether the Gothard bros were chewing the fat one day in their preteen years, when one of them said, "Hey, I know! When we grow up, let's start a 'religious group.' We can use it as a combination piggybank/escort service to satisfy all our needs and desires!"

Well, isn't that special? It's probably because I copied and pasted them from a post of mine a ways up from this one -- at 4:35 pm yesterday. Guess that doesn't work! Here they are, fresh. Try these (or the post above): http://realmrhousewife.com/2015/05/25/exclusive-duggars-crisis-manager-hired/ http://realmrhousewife.com/2015/05/27/exclusive-duggar-family-crisis-manager-not-hired/ http://www.christianpost.com/news/christian-pr-expert-says-josh-duggars-apology-is-not-enough-to-satisfy-sexual-molestation-scandal-139688/