Churchhoney

Well, actually, I meant that the combination of the fact that this is a quintessential human story plus being a political story -- which has fallout for other people -- is why it's been in the headlines. It's got staying power because it's got so many facets, those being the top two.

Oh, not the orchestra. Please, not the orchestra.

By now, they may have convinced themselves that this is what happened, though. They obviously knew at the time, given what's in the police report -- but I'm sure they were also very confused and alarmed and didn't want anyone to know. Even "over their clothes," there's a good chance they felt what was happening when it was happening, and felt some sensations that immediately put them into fear -- even terror -- and possibly guilt mode. And in that case you might start altering the memory in your mind right away. And then there was the long aftermath with their parents telling them things and eventually having to go and talk about it with strangers -- and these kids didn't talk to many strangers, especially non-church strangers. Which is all to say that I expect the actual truth of what they felt back when it really happened has changed a lot in their minds over the years -- so many things can change your memories, and they've had a heaping helping of those things for these particular memories. .... I'm not sure I'd call anything she says now "lying," because I suspect that she inevitably lost hold of the actual truth of what happened and what she knew and what she felt years and years ago. And from then on, you're likely to be buying into whatever myth your whole family has changed the incident into.

I've had a different view of the Duggars' "faith" than you. In my opinion, JimBob seized on this particular faith and, in his case, its accompanying cult, for one reason and one reason only: It looked like an excellent tool to shore up his huge but also fragile ego. Seems to me that nothing I've ever heard of them doing conflicts with this view, actually. HIs "faith," just like everything else in his life, such as his wife and children, exists to serve him. Never, ever, the other way around. I'd love to hear some counterexamples if there are some. And I admit that I say this as someone who's barely ever watched the show. However, I've read about it extensively for years, including acres of recaps. I do believe that JB believes he's some massively faithful person. He's just that blind and lacking in self awareness. But where is the evidence for his actually following scripture rather than just haranguing other people to do so and parading it about to show others how great he is. They may have a prayer closet, but that's not where JB does his praying. He needs a Senate seat and a tv show.

Yeah. Positive proof that the only thing they care about is their image. Josh damaged it. So prettying up what Josh did might get some of the dings out of their reputation. The girls' experience didn't affect their image one way or the other. So no need to talk or think about them. I wonder whether any of the Duggar children notice these patterns in their parents' behavior.

Here's something else I never thought I'd say. Piers Morgan FTW: 'They made this assertion: ‘Similar things happen in other families’. Really? I’m struggling to think of a single other family where a serial child molester has not only got away with his crimes thanks to his parents’ deceit, but has then been made a TV star by the same parents in a show extolling the virtues of family values.' http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3111528/Piers-Morgan-19-disgusting-things-learned-Duggars-TV-interview-counting.html#ixzz3cDC5ltkK Of course, it's perfectly possible this has happened to someone else and we just haven't found out about it yet. But still ....

Something tells me you will not be alone -- at all -- in those opinions. I've seen a snippet, and I expect a lot of people will be just as creeped out by them and their message as they were by JB and M. Which is saying something.

What strikes me is that virtually everything the Duggars do is echoed closely by the structure and practices of my own insane family -- except that in my family no religious reasons were advanced to justify what was done. It was all just the personal demands of a malevolent lunatic. So in my opinion, this extremist offshoot of a church is actually a fraternal club in which sick control freaks gather so that they can use their numbers and a made-up theology as added cudgels to enhance their personal power. Sort of the way the Divine Right of Kings gave monarchs a pass to just be assholes.

Once, they had the training that came from living their whole lives in a house with 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19 children and COUNTING (including counting the days-of-mom's-cycle calendar up on the refrigerator door). Now, they got nothin. Can't see who'll want to watch. Or advertise. Especially after this week is over.

I know there's been a lot of criticism the first young PR guy they contacted for blabbing. But given what he blabbed I'm pretty sure he told them just this. And then they told him to take a hike.

If one of the kids called Oprah and asked for help with college, I wonder if she'd give to them. In your face, JimBob!

Exactly. What it really is is Greek Tragedy 101. Some might think of it as a DC story because the more prominent the main character, the bigger and louder the fallout. The more power he/she has over others, the more the fallout affects many people, including the audience at the play. Beyond that, though, it's just the human story. Yet another reason why the Duggar story has had staying power on the front page.

I wonder whether TLC wasn't going to support some of the Nepal move. There was talk about people "working" on storylines for the continued (or new) show. And that certainly would have been one. If the continuation is now threatened (or over), I wonder whether that alone might kill the Nepal plan. .... That could be tied in with Jill's current apparent devastation over the Duggar debacle as well, seems to me.

I suspect that both Jill and Jessa are absolutely crazed with desperation and fury at the prospect of potentially losing their new show -- or the recentered, way more Jill- and Jessa-centric (complete with their own paychecks) show, though. The more I think about it, the more I get the feeling that it was completely set up already and was the force behind Jill and Derick's sudden decision to take off for Nepal and possibly for some plan of Ben's to really go after the ministry, following his played-up graduation (with the Duggars, not the Seewalds, in the front row watching -- Why was that, unless it was being filmed for the next series?) And that could motivate them, too. I think it's possible that one or both of the girls first began ranting about that, wishing she could do something, then said something about "I wish I could tell those people blah blah! I'd do an interview all right!" And, once that was said, JB's and M' s and their PR guy's and lawyer's ears perked up. And then they quietly helped foster the notion. The girls would see that as its having been their idea.

According to Variety, she averages about 2.11 milion.

I would think the advertisers are a little skeered. .... Or at least I hope the advertisers are a little skeered. And lots of people tune in to watch a scandal who wouldn't tune in to watch a show about kids walking on counters. Tell me that's right. Please.

Have you tried hitting Control and +

Thanks for sharing this. I've heard him be good and heard him say things that really seemed to betray his training (and obvious brains) utterly, so I wondered. Glad to say that in this case he was great. He could barely conceal his horror -- and rightly so. And he even got in a good line about -- Some people (who were not completely self-absorbed) would worry that with that many kids they couldn't pay adequate attention -- and, hey, look what happened here. .... Good for him. I've read some other people mentioning, as he suggested, that one of the scariest things about this is that, after having this issue in the family for 13 years or so, and after supposedly talking about it with at least some counselors and with other families, the Duggars as a group are apparently still utterly clueless about the whole issue. Scary.

Why the HECK did she wear that bad long hair? Because it's "what daddy likes"? Because it's Gothard-approved? I can see wearing some semblance of "modest clothing' in their house. But long hair? When it's bad? Very odd.

You;'re probably right that they really were that ignorant. By the same token, they were adults signing up -- quite consciously -- to pursue their "mission" of becoming a visible ideal of morality, faith and godly family life for the nation. So logic (if they had any) would tell them that this would necessarily entail a heck of a lot of public visibility. Plus, they did it some years after JimBob had already purposed to become a member of the U.S. Senate another role that necessitates high public visibility. If two adults with aspirations that high don't know enough to do their due diligence and really examine the potential consequences, good and bad, of putting themselves into the spotlight in either of those ways, then I have no sympathy with them whatsoever. Be they television watchers, or not.

5. And switch your allegiance to situational ethics. Tsk tsk. I'm sure there's stuff in the Wisdom Booklets about not doing that.

Because thinking that makes the Duggars feel very important? And they're all about seeing themselves as Message of Very High Importance. Now, when it comes to such any such evil liberal agendas existing in the real world? Not a chance. You aren't that important, Duggars. Never were.

Is there no honor among Gothardites? TPM on Huck's defection: http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/duggar-endorsements-disappear-mike-huckabee

[ galax-arena, on 04 Jun 2015 - 2:42 PM, said: Defending Josh against accusations of pedophilia or rape? Fair enough. But child molester? No. If Jessa's referring to herself as a victim, then that means that Josh is a child molester. Otherwise, what is Jessa a victim of?] Having really crummy parents.

Absolutely. And with Jessa and Ben -- well, I think he probably does/did hope to parlay his new associates' degree into a pastors' job or the like. I don't blame them for being furious and miserable over having all those things made so much more difficult if they don't get their show. I'm sure that in their brainwashed state they're consciously blaming the wrong people. But I wouldn't really expect them to be able to do otherwise, either. One more thing that's very sad about all this. (ETA): Even though I think that being on reality tv has been and would continue to be a bad thing for them rather than a good one, all things considered.