Churchhoney

Yes, no question at all about that. And this is one of those places where I'm handicapped by never having actually watched 19 Kids. I have no idea what kind of places they actually went to, so I'm basing my comments on some real-life acquaintances who've gone on mission trips to the same countries and did seem to spend their time in pretty heavily Catholic areas and away from the poorest, most stressed areas. I'm sure not every trip is like that.

Perhaps the two main types of Christians, in a nutshell. I find myself wondering which type Jill is. For no specific reason I can point to, I feel as if she might be your mom's type, but that could be total fantasy (just like so much else of all our speculations).

Only too true. Civil strife has a way of bringing out the worst in people.

Trust us. We're on television. (even though television is, you know, satanic) Not that I think these two would do anything nefarious with the funds. It's not a very responsible message, however. And I think it's likely to pull in funds only from the very gullible -- who would be taken in by somebody nefarious.

You cannot, however, feed the family, including the youngest toddlers, frozen carrots straight out of the bag and convince them it's dinner! (unless it's an exceptionally hot night, that is) So from the Michelle point of view -- Frozen veggies? Unacceptable. .... Frozen lasagna is a-ok, however.

Okay, that's true. I've never been one to focus on military strategists as the greatest historical heroes, so I know I tend to put them a lot lower on my list of inspiring historical figures. That's probably because nobody else ever got much mention in my school history classes, and memorizing lists of battles and generals nearly killed history for me for life. Nevertheless, I still wonder what's going on in the head of a 21st-century person who names Confederate leaders as their national heroes and especially this guy, whose role after the war makes him, at the least, a difficult figure that one might hesitate to venerate. Founder of the C/Klan -- to use violence and the threat of it to make sure that blacks could get nowhere, even after slavery ended. Nice Christian attitude. Also not very patriotic -- treasonous at the time, in fact, although nobody was going to treat it as such. Apparently I have an issue with NBF that goes beyond the Bateses then, because I don't get that story either!

Yes, you're certainly right about this. I can't say that the folks I know who've gone on the Duggar-type Central American missions ever went to the most troubled or remote areas, however. Of course, that doesn't mean that Derick and Jill wouldn't, since they're looking at a lengthy stay. Well, if you really believe that your particular belief system is the only path to an individual's salvation (and I'm sure he does) and you believe that Christ's second coming depends on humans preparing the way by making over earth's institutions in the mold of heaven's kingdom (and I suspect he may, since that's baked into a lot of the traditions he's linked to, such as the whole Quiverfull homeschooling post-millennialist enterprise), then converting people is of the essence, really. Not only can individuals not be saved without it, but the second coming doesn't come for anyone unless the faithful bring a Christian-run golden age to Earth.

Makes me really curious. Especially because I can't think of the Bateses without thinking of the Nathan Bedford Forrest portrait they have on their sort of "love of country" wall. Just thought of that the other day, reading an old quote about NBF in an article on the pro-slavery and racist underpinnings and aftermath of the Civil War, in The Atlantic: "And in 1917, the Confederate Veteran [a late 19th-/early 20-century magazine] singled out one man for particular praise: "'Great and trying times always produce great leaders, and one was at hand—Nathan Bedford Forrest. His plan, the only course left open. The organization of a secret govern­ment. A terrible government; a government that would govern in spite of black majorities and Federal bayonets. This secret government was organized in every community in the South, and this government is known in history as the Klu Klux Clan... "'...No nobler or grander spirits ever assembled on this earth than gathered in these clans. No human hearts were ever moved with nobler impulses or higher aims and purposes….Order was restored, property safe; because the negro feared the Klu Klux Clan more than he feared the devil. Even the Federal bayonets could not give him confidence in the black government which had been established for him, and the negro voluntarily surrendered to the Klu Klux Clan.... "'Bedford Forrest should always be held in reverence by every son and daughter of the South as long as memory holds dear the noble deeds and service of men for the good of others on, this earth. What mind is base enough to think of what might have happened but for Bedford Forrest and his "Invisible" but victorious army.''' http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/06/what-this-cruel-war-was-over/396482/ The guy was apparently a very talented and ruthless military officer, too, but there's no way that the Bateses, college-educated southerners, aren't fully aware of the only real reason that Forrest is still remembered and was celebrated long after the war. I would love to know what's in the head of a 21st-century American who hangs a few pictures on his wall of national heroes and the founder of the KKK is among them. Sure hoping that they didn't name their son Nathan after this dude, but who the heck knows. How many portraits of historical figures do any of us have on our walls? ETA: I guess the depiction of the old-time Clan is of massively fearful people. So if the Bateses are identifying with this tradition in some way, then that would put them right in the same ballpark as JImBob and Michelle who, to me, appear to be some of the most fearful people on this earth. I haven't watched the Bates (heck, have hardly even watched any of the Duggars), but from what I read, they don't seem to give off the fear vibes that the Duggs do. They seem to be quite a mystery.

Actually, Catholics do use that phrase. The Nicene creed starts this way: I" believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of Heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God. Born of the Father before all ages. God of God, Light of Light, true God of true God. Begotten, not made: consubstantial with the Father; by Whom all things were made." I mean, both Protestants and Catholics believe in Jesus's divinity. I think that Protestants, especially evangelicals and fundies, just talk about Jesus on his own a lot more than Catholics do. Less focus on the divine trinity in fundie talk, I think.

Good point. I'm very much in favor of any of the kids getting out of JB&M's orbit, but I do feel bad for Derick's mom. Unlike her in-laws, she seems to actually relish being a grandma.

Me, too. In this case, though, I'd call that the more appropriate and proportionate response!

Didn't take his massive oblivious arrogance long to return, did it? Given this, I have a hard time believing all the predictions and concerns that he might be cowering somewhere in shame and devastation over what he's done to his family. This looks like the same behavior he showed in the first special, when he appeared to me to be a cocky little SOB who spent most of his time preening his feathers and took his ignorance for wisdom, even though the taping took place only shortly after the supposedly devastating molestation incidents. I'll give him one thing -- he's got great resilience when it comes to bouncing back from his own effups. Oh, and I'll give him one thing more -- inventing a new concept, the seven-year engagement anniversary. Don't know when I've heard such a transparent bogus excuse for a PR event.

Especially since Jilly Muffin, who did have the younguns over a lot -- including for sleepovers and help with schoolwork -- won't be around any longer to provide that safety valve for the TTH.

"Our hope is that all peoples of the world would come to repentance and put their hope in the Lord, Jesus Christ." So this is all about converting those famous non-Christians -- Catholics? Oy. That said, I'm glad somebody in the clan is making some effort to strike out on their own. But I'm hoping that this is more about service than passing out the proper Bible translation.

I like it. Possibly -- "People for whom '19 Kids' should come with a trigger warning"?

Oh, goodness. The way things fly by in Duggar conversations lately major events get brought up and recede to pages back in a few hours. I don't know if it's possible to have a Duggar obsession robust enough to catch every little thing -- and if it is, it probably requires an intervention.

Ah, that's a much better explanation than mine. I thought she was trying to impersonate a prairie chicken.

Yeah. Presumably they do the stuff that JB and M imagine that they do. 'They have followed Biblical principles over the years, including tithing or giving at least 10 percent of their income to God, limiting the amount of money they borrow for the business, and placing a premium on humility. '"Our leadership goes through a great class on servant leadership. And those who graduate get a beautiful statue of Christ washing the feet of His disciples," said Jack Herschend.... '"When you come in, don't be offended if you hear about Jesus because this place does stand for the Lord," Tom Johnson, an entertainer at Silver Dollar City, said. "We don't make them believe. We don't preach at them, but we let our lights shine so that Jesus can be exalted and that God can be glorified."' http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/2010/December/Silver-Dollar-Family-Strikes-Gold-with-Godly-Values-/

I think how much they finally got depends pretty much on who wanted the interview more, though. I know that Fox -- and Kelly, though I can't really imagine why -- really did want it. But I think that Jim Bob was absolutely desperate for it -- although that simply demonstrates what a tone-deaf arrogant ignoramus he is -- so I can't help but think that he really was in the weaker negotiating position. I certainly agree that he would begin bargaining by asking for a lot -- but I still think that Fox was more likely to threaten to end negotiations if he didn't back down from whatever he tried to demand.

I think you're right. And thank God for the interviews then. They solidified for at least some people what Michelle and Jim Bob really are: people who can never ever say, 'We just screwed up.' (despite all the lip service to 'we're not perfect people.') As well as people who are willing to throw their "victim" daughters completely under the bus (without the daughters realizing it, of course) while also making plain that they dictate the script that those adult daughters are somehow induced to just follow along with it, word for word, with their own agency completely squelched and denied. Darned glad they did those interviews. They brought out into the open a lot of the Duggar traits that have been covered up for a decade by the soft-soap nature of their "reality" show.

Cripes. According to this, though, looks like nurse-midwives can practice anywhere? http://mana.org/about-midwives/legal-status-of-us-midwives Nurse-Midwives practice legally in all 50 U.S. states and the District of Columbia. Certified Professional Midwives are legally authorized to practice in 28 states. Certified Midwives practice legally in only three states. In any case, I hope -- though probably in vain -- that the DC-area CNMs hooked her up with somebody nearby.

Just in general, the history is that these fringe-y groups peter out, even in the second generation, and certainly in the third and fourth. The United States has a particularly rich history of new churches, denominations, splinter groups, cults and so on, most but not all Protestant-related, with many springing up, especially beginning around 1800 or so. Few have survived very long at all, although a handful have persisted. It's hard to get converts after the first few generations, partly because the charismatic founding figures are gone, and they're a big part of the draw. So you're stuck with just passing the thing down in families, and kids in the later generations don't have the same motivations as their parents, who came to the group as adults. Anecdotally, it seems that Gothard's group is going the same way most have gone -- i.e., losing its momentum.

Man, if so, that was the least worthwhile 7-figure interview in history.

I'm hoping that the CNM they worked with in DC hooked them up with another CNM group in Arkansas. I suppose I hope in vain. (hope not, though)

I thought he already had.