Churchhoney

I didn't. Still don't! : )

Me, too. Great post. Thanks for sharing this. .

$9.99 J & M had better rev up the salesmanship. At this rate, they'll have to find a cheaper reception venue than the parking lot and cheaper snacks than mini rootbeer floats with melted ice cream.

And if you donate, you'll be in at the ground floor on what could be an entertainment-world milestone on the scale of the birth of United Artist studios! For realz! These kids are pros -- they've been walking on kitchen counters watching camera and audio people for over a decade! Link here to find out how you can pay and pray for them today!

Yeah, you're certainly right that there's a very Duggar-like category. I haven't personally known any from this group, so I've seen a different slice. People my own age whose families were already conservative or liberal or at least sliding out of Orthodox already when I was a kid and then -- maybe most influentially for the way I view Jewish tradition -- a bunch of older European immigrants, many of them scholars, including women, some of whom remained religious and some of whom had become secular but still embraced what they saw as Jewish intellectual tradition, which they saw as growing out of Jewish Talmudic tradition. I guess what makes me see an overall difference between the Jewish and the Protestant approaches is an (apparent) Protestant tradition -- in the parts I've observed, anyway -- for dissent to split groups, almost as a necessary??? demand of the faith, and with the out group (depending on your point of view) often seen as being condemned to hell. The whole "legalism" of something like Gothard has that old-testament ring to it in a way. But it's really not at all the Jewish approach as I've seen it personally or even as I've read about it ... Which is not to say that there's no "who's in/who's out" discussion among Jews. But I guess when you introduce the question of personal salvation, you ratchet that issue up a notch?

Thanks!

He must have been beloved by the co-users of his office building parking garage.

Exactly. Also -- How do we know that they're only staying a month? I don't remember seeing any evidence about the length of their stay.

It's the "how you can pray for us" that makes me itchy. I have no problem at all with "please pray for us." But every time I've seen somebody say "how" in that context -- and send me to a different web page -- the prayer also seems to involve sending cash. So it seems disingenuous. I actually don't even have a problem with people requesting cash for their good cause. But I think it's only right to make exactly clear to potential givers what the cash will be used for. And to keep it clear that prayer and cash aren't the same thing. (Although the Supreme Court may disagree with me there. heh)

Environment, enschvironment. We've got dominion over the Earth, baby.

Whereas if you ask 3 Baptists a question, you get 4 new churches. I like the Jewish tradition better.

I absolutely agree that this is a true discipline. But to my mind the long tradition in Jewish practice of intense, prolonged discussion, analysis and debate of the law and its observances play a similar role. (just as meditation is also a true discipline, even though it doesn't have you drawing conclusions.) Not everybody does this, of course. But in the past, at least, it's the debate and analysis that kind of was the Jewish tradition, as I understand it. ... Of course, I'm pretty sure some scholars would say that this fact partly accounts for cultural Judaism, not religious Judaism, being the mainstream choice today. I forget what it's called, but there's a big school of thought arguing that a group survives as a religion mostly depending on the extent to which you have to actively jump over a lot of hurdles in order to be in it. And getting to think through your own interpretation of something -- even if it's your interpretation of what it means to obey a certain law -- isn't a hurdle -- it's a treat, basically. The Duggars' unquestioning compliance with every dumb thing Boob and Gothard say, on the other hand -- That's a hurdle. : )

So I wonder what happens, taxwise, if the very venal, cash-crafty and greedy Boob of my imagination does what I suspect he might: demand that the kids reimburse him for their private-plane travel when they go to events for which they, not he, get paychecks. Would it make the most financial sense for both if they paid him for the flights and then took those travel expense as a deduction? Who makes out better there, the kids or Boob, given that he certainly makes a lot more money? I guess there's no way he could take anything as a deduction from these transactions. Just very curious about how Boob handles the costs of flying those planes when he's not personally reaping a cash benefit from a work trip. (too curious, obviously. ha) These days, I think that might have a big effect on Jessa's income, especially, since she's the free and married one who looks to be crafting at least a mini-career for herself (and Mr. Tag-A-Long) by guest-speaking at events around the country.

Plus, the simple need to enlist the goy serves what some see as the meaning of the law -- fostering mindfulness of God's presence, fostering awareness of one's separateness from the world at large, cultivating the habits of observance and obedience, incorporating religious ritual into everyday activities. One of the wonderful things about Judaism, to me, is the long tradition of discussing, analyzing and debating the whys, the hows, and the meaning of the laws and the different ways in which they might be observed, in a largely non-rancorous but very intense way. As I understand it, to some ways of thinking it isn't so much that God set multiple little rules because he wants particular things to be done but because he wants people to keep him in mind through awareness of the rules. Following the rules plays sort of the role that meditation does in some other religions -- not so much the violations-require-forgiveness-or-send-you-to-hell thing, as in Christianity, but more of a just constant gentle recalling to who's at the center of the world and what your place is in it. Just like having your mind wander in meditation isn't something bad that sends you hellbound. You just call your mind back. To me -- although I could be all wet here -- a key distinction between these views of God's laws and the Duggar view is that these views aren't essentially fear-based and the Duggs' is. The not-so-fear-based, observance-for-the-sake-of-mindfulness approach seems way healthier to me! (surprise)

I'd imagine so. But then I wonder whether Boob would demand that she hand the expense check over to him, to compensate him for fuel, landing fees, transient plane parking at the remote airports, depreciation, etc.! (I can just see him totting it up precisely in his otherwise blurry brain.) Hence Michelle's sex "doesn't take long" commentary.

The difficulty with "gruntled' is that it sounds as if it means "disgruntled."

"Countenance Weekly" -- 10 pages of makeup tips, 5 pages of hair advice, 10 pages of fashion editorial, 25 pages of ads for Bible retreats and 120 pages of "What Not to Wear."

...or Fundie punk Gibson girl. Or Amy Winehouse.

Hope the event fully reimburses her and Ben's travel costs or else JB will insist on deducting the cost of the flight from her pay. Wonder if they pay JD a modest fee for his work as air chauffeur or whether he's just supposed to do it for the glory. I'm sure it's fun for him to fly and it gets him out of the house, but he's also forced to be at their beck and call. What am I saying? Of course, they don't. They're all supposed to be at Boob's beck and call. And here I keep thinking that some of them are adults.

It's the Jana connection. "Classical Music" includes concert pianists, you know.

I love it!

Well, I can certainly see why their look would be trendsetting. ...I hope they're teenagers. Because someday they'll look back on that hair, and ... Well, it'd just be better to have done that as a teenager than as a 20-something, I think.

That's it all right. There are just too many things, I guess. And many of them are stuck in so deep that they're nothing but unconscious movers of stuff you do, I think. A lot of them are little things, but they're not all little -- some have big consequences but they're just in my automatic wiring and I can't seem to get them out. Long story short -- I'm going to die in the same condition as your dad! I definitely identify with the Duggar scarves. I even do scarves over turtlenecks. Yikes. Crazy, because consciously I'm really a sex-positive person. I've gone to nude beaches and actually enjoyed myself. It's nuts!

Well, despite my rant, I don't think it's quite as bad as that. Going by the small amount I know about the sex books that fundies tend to use, I think the girls know that they can orgasm and everybody knows that the woman is supposed to be pleased. But knowing it and achieving it -- especially at a young age when girls can easily "know" it but not completely understand it or have any experience with it -- are obviously two different things. Michelle's comment doesn't give me a lot of confidence that she's provided any instruction about the woman's pleasure, for example. Thanks!

This is why I wear turtlenecks to this day, even in summer. The sluttiness of the non-turtleneck was so engrained in me that I have to make a conscious effort while shopping to even look at shirts or dresses that don't go some ways up my neck. I'm surprised that their parents haven't drummed this into them.