KBrownie

My fault, the original post didn't specify that it was bad acting that all those characters had in common and that's why they shouldn't participate in anything regarding Doug's death. I read "serious characters" as those who had real ties to the character that it would make sense for them to be a part of events involving his death. I didn't particularly enjoy Jack for most of his last appearances either, but I blame the nonsensical writing for that. There wasn't much Matt could do with the complete and utter BS nonsense they had Jack spouting as part of the hack job on Jack to try and make retcon Gwen work. Plus, I really never though him and CM had much chem. He's best with MR, or in family stuff with Steve and Abby and JJ.

I really don't see how Jack could be grouped with any of these characters. In any way. But in regards to Doug, he had an actual relationship with both Doug and Julie. Jack is family. I don't see why his participation in the events surrounding Doug's passing wouldn't be just as serious as anyone else. Jack's presence makes sense. Unlike any of those others. I do hope KA and PR are able to return as well.

She wasn’t being installed. She was inheriting her throne as tradition. Aegon was the one who was installed. And no one knew for certain that it would tear the realm apart. They all would have had to just deal with it. But everyone certainly DID know that usurping a throne probably wouldn’t cause everlasting peace. Not installing her also tore the realm apart. But that too is somehow Rhaenyra’s fault for not just accepting the Hightowers usurping her. It’s funny how SHE is the one who is supposed to just accept it and move on but the Hightowers aren’t criticized for not just accepting what Viserys wanted. Rhaenyra and Daemon would have been absolute fools to send their youngest boys to be Hightower hostages. Alicent and Otto would have tortured those boys because of their parents. They would have gotten extra pleasure out of torturing them because not only was Rhaenyra their mother, they were Daemon’s only sons. They hated Jace, Luke, and Joffrey just because of their mother. They would have likely just killed them when they had the chance. Crazy Aemond would probably get jealous that they were more Targaryen than him.

I agree it's an absolutely brilliant and effective strategy. The posters as well. I liked how the Green promo had the Aegon actor introducing it while the Black had the Rhaenyra actress introducing that one because the leaders of both sides now that there will be a war SHOULD be him and Rhaenyra, but then the majority of the Green promo is still all about Alicent. Aegon is just her puppet in her made-up war against Rhaenyra. Just as she was, and still is, her father’s. The problem with the promotion is that it still misses a fundamental point. There's so much "both sides"-ing of the two sides when it's just the greens who are at the root of all the tension and conflict in the lead up to and final action of usurping the throne. They were the ones lying, plotting, and manipulating in their own greed and ambition for power. The two sides are not the same. Team Green are the villains of this story. RHAENYRA’S story. They aren’t equals to her. That's not to say that anyone on team black never did anything wrong or are moral and good people. But nothing any of them did, unlike the greens, was directly responsible for the war or what led up to it. They were living their own lives and largely minding their own business while Alicent, Otto, and the rest are plotting because they are greedy, resentful, and jealous haters. Rhaenyra was the chosen and rightful heir as decided by her father the King. Whether one agrees with that decision or not, it was her right. She didn’t steal it. She didn’t gain that position through any deceitful means. She isn’t wrong to want what was taken from her and to defend herself against an unwarranted and undeserved attack. Rhaenyra doesn’t have to just give in and accept whatever the Greens dish out. Especially when THEY are the ones in the wrong. As far as the actual promo, Alicent still going strong in her self-righteous delusions. She’s gaslighting herself along with everyone else at this point. She isn’t responsible for anything that has happened or is about to happen. Rhaenyra just wants revenge. Viserys wanted Aegon. She’s such an absolute clown. I might have more respect if the coward just owned up to her machinations, but nope. Rhaenyra is responsible for everything. She’s just the victim protecting her children. It seems that she has passed on her delusions to her sons as well. Especially that bootleg, poor imitation for Daemon, Aemond. He welcomes the challenge from Daemon? Lol, he don’t want that smoke. He’s done absolutely nothing other than be slightly better than his rapist brother to have so much ego and bluster. Accidentally killing a 14-year-old because your dragon wouldn’t listen to your orders doesn’t put him in the same league as Daemon. And last I remember, he cowered and walked off when faced with Daemon directly. Another clown. Team Black. Anything Rhaenyra or Daemon do to reclaim her throne, defend their family, and avenge Luke is justified. Don't start none, won't be none.

Same. I thought Lila should have been the one to go. I was okay with Elsie being safe because her issue wasn’t taste or technical mistakes. Underbaking in a baking competition seems to be a bigger error than not enough filling. Isn’t this also at least Lila’s second time in the bottom? I enjoy the all the variations of the baking championship, but sometimes the judging is frustratingly inconsistent.

I haven’t watched yet, but was that the explanation given for why she had an ornament? Or did they try to play it as having something to do with Abby? Her already having an ornament seems to be convenient for the show to continue to try and play up a strong familial connection between Abigail and Stephanie that never was really there other than their fathers being brothers. They should have brought Stephanie back before they killed Abigail. Stephanie caring about Abigail and her kids rings false to me. Chad is her main interest. She won’t have anything to do with those kids if storyline needs take her out of Chad’s orbit. Wasn’t Sonny the only Johnson cousin that Abigail and JJ were shown to be close to? There were brief mentions of Tripp as JJ’s cousin and Jack’s nephew when he and JJ were trying to help Hailey when amnesiac Jack and Eve were trying to get her deported. Abigail and JJ also were shown to have relationships with Steve/Kayla and Adrienne/Justin as aunts and uncles, but not with Jack and Jennifer for Steve and Kayla’s kids. Or even just Jennifer when Jack was still dead. Was it different with the other adult versions of Stephanie and Joey? Even the teen versions of Abigail and Stephanie weren’t close when they were on screen at the same time. Abigail was closer to Chelsea at that time if I remember correctly.

Especially since Jack has/had done NOTHING to Xander except not continue to be an utter and complete fool when it came to Gwen. Jack never looked down on him for his past and let him stay at the Horton house when he had nowhere to go. Yet Xander blackmails him because his priority was his wife, his 30 plus year soulmate who was grieving their brutally murdered child over a brand-new “daughter” who had terrorized his family. That Jack wasn’t falling over himself over Gwen of all people. The same person who tried to kill the person Xander claims to love. Xander sucks. And if the fact that someone has done bad things is their past means they can’t be upset when someone, completely unrelated to the past deeds, wrongs them, then I guess Xander shouldn’t have anything to say when Theresa’s lie comes out. But of course he will (and absolutely should). Just like he was so hurt about Sarah keeping his kid from him, but had no qualms when he and Sarah did the same to Eric. That Horton Christmas gathering looks pathetic. Maggie, Sarah, and Xander are firmly Kiriakis every other day of the year except for when they are needed because they’ve gotten rid of all the other, more traditional Hortons besides Doug and Julie. What is Stephanie and her ex there for? Is Stephanie going to be upset that they dare to hang Abby’s ornament? Of course there will be a joke around Nick’s ornament. They probably wont even mention any of the obvious Hortons that aren’t there because the show has wiped them out.

For sure. The reasoning both times was always suspect.

I really hope they undo her connection to Jack on her way out. His, and Jennifer’s to a lesser extent, history and characterization was totally and unnecessarily damaged and sacrificed in order to facilitate this character. All for absolutely nothing. An absolute dud from start to finish. I wonder what’ll happen if this version of Theresa doesn’t work out. Will they keep forcing Gwen or give the actress another character? Maybe an unpopular opinion, but I don’t care one bit about Xander when it comes to the baby secret. Sarah is dead wrong, no doubt, but she was dead wrong when she did it to Eric and Xander happily participated in that lie. I hope the writers just have him be happy to have a daughter when he finds out and avoid any hypocritical histrionics about being lied to. At least his daughter will be alive. Eric lost all that time with his daughter and she died. I doubt Xander will suffer the same given his apparent leading man status.

I hope she’s a willing participant as well because if Dimitri and/or Leo are deceiving/manipulating her for his/their own ends, it will just give her another opportunity for one of her “poor, poor Gwen, no one loves me” trips. And no one wants or needs another round of that.

Eh. Maybe if Leo weren't a pointless retcon who'd been around for thirty years working at and building up the paper. Or if Diana had been around to do the same thing for her son. Not really the same thing.

It’s sort of irritating how they’ve taken the newspaper and completely erased Jack and Jennifer from the narrative and history surrounding it and given it to Xander and Gwen for them to try and build their own false legacy around it. Especially considering how they acquired it. You can’t really have your “own thing” and have it be “your future” when you steal it from someone else. They both are acting like they are some plucky upstarts with nothing but a dream, pulling themselves up by the bootstraps with all their honest hard work, determination, and drive to make it and this will be their great legacy that they built. Nope. Not buying it. They stole someone else’s legacy that was already a business in place and established and are acting like they started from nothing. It’s ridiculous for them to spout all their nonsense about the newspaper when everything they talk about they took from Jack and Jennifer. Even Xander and Chloe getting closer while building up the paper is a ripoff of early Jack and Jennifer. At least JnJ’s story was actually about the paper and not just them falling in love. You actually saw Jack teaching Jennifer about the job. They had to deal with at different points not being able to afford to keep the paper. They were actual journalists. They reported on the actual events happening in and around Salem which led to them interacting with different characters. Xander and Chloe spend their time flirting more than anything else. Apparently, based on the article above, that will continue to be all they do. Gwen only interviewed this new guy because it’s her next love interest. I wanted to punch Gwen in the face last week when she brushed off her and Xander’s stealing the paper from Jack and Jennifer with “oh they have another one in Connecticut.” The sociopath will never get it. The Spectator was never just a job to them. It’s part of their history, their legacy. And then she threw out that line about getting her skills from her father like she’s so proud of herself. I guess in her pea brain that justifies her complete lack of training or qualifications for the job. She brings up Jack, but doesn’t want to talk about what she did. Her or Xander. They both can STFU. If the show wanted Jack and Jennifer gone, they should have passed the paper on to their children, but that would have made too much sense. They’d already set up Abby to fill that role, but decided instead to remove the entire family instead and replace them in their own history. Gwen the nasty retcon is not the link to Jack and Jennifer the show thinks it, like her having the paper is honoring and acknowledging the history of it. Abigail/JJ? Absolutely. Retcon Gwen? Absolutely not. Give them some other business to play at. Don’t get me wrong, it’s good to use the history in a new way, but this isn’t it. But that’s been the problem when it comes to JnJ since Gwen showed up. Their history, particularly Jack’s, has been twisted and annihilated to accommodate the retcon.

Same. It's really amazing how many chances/stories dud Gwen has had to try and make her successful. This is her what, fourth, fifth love interest in the three, four years she's been around? In addition to all the other story she's had? Someone is really committed to the character for some reason. Chance after chance, story after story while proven successful characters languish off-screen. It's sort of comical how many new/recent characters dominate this show in stories all about them and they just keep adding more. I frankly just don't care. It would be one thing if these were the younger generations of established characters and families, but most aren't. They're just randos or silly retcons.

So once two years ago when Gwen lied about Kayla's actual niece being the reason she lost her baby? Point still stands. Gwen's "Aunt Kayla" was just random, clunky, and unearned. Plus, their interaction then was more about Kayla being the only, all-purpose doctor in Salem at the time. Brady better be careful. Gwen will drug and poison Chloe if she really sees her as any kind of threat.

The reference to "Aunt Kayla" just felt like another lame attempt to try and force the character of Gwen to mean something. They wrote Jack out, so now they are trying to use Kayla to give her a tie to someone, a reason to exist. Never mind the fact that Kayla has ONLY acknowledged Gwen's existence in relation to staunchly supporting Abigail and/or Jennifer AGAINST Gwen. Kayla has certainly never acknowledged her as her niece/family when she always did with Abigail and JJ. Hell, neither has Steve. But now Gwen is throwing out "Aunt Kayla" as if they have any sort of familial relationship. Like she actually GAF that Kayla is alive. It was just yet another clunky way to try and tie the character to someone important and relevant since Jack is no longer around to be used and abused to do that particular bit of heavy lifting. But I wouldn't put it past this show to ignore the past and pretend like Kayla, Steve, and Gwen are such close family now.

This also applies to Gwen. Except her personality/motivations/careers shift every few months or so instead of whenever there's a recast. She's a nobody retcon without the strong ties of Stephanie, so she's not worth all the effort of trying to get anyone to care about her. The actress is terrible, as is the story with Chad, but the character is salvageable if written by someone better. Stephanie should have been frenemies with her cousin Abby. Have her and Joey clash a bit with Abby and JJ over business or something. Let Steve and Jack vow not to take sides when their kids want them to help. USE the history. Then find a suitable love interest. Not the insta-love with Chad and new, perfect replacement mommy for Abby's kids.

Yeah, the Jack crap was especially ridiculous. But, I guess he couldn’t leave without propping Gwen one final time to try and meekly cement a reason for her sticking around after they’ve decimated the entire Deveraux family for her to exist. They’re all gone, but she, of all people, is the one left to run Jack and Jennifer’s legacy. Not either of their kids, but a hateful, useless retcon. I guess Ron feels like the Deverauxs have all served their sole purpose of propping and providing Gwen, the only one the show cares about, a foundation in Salem, so there’s no need for them anymore. It’s insulting how they’ve set her up as being passed the torch from Jack and Jennifer. Even though she stole it, Jack STILL has to kiss her ass and tell her it’s basically okay she has the paper because Abby’s dead and JJ doesn’t care. I don’t buy JJ not caring. He just can’t compete with the retcon. She steals Jack’s business, but is somehow committed to running the paper honest and true. Whatever, show. She’s been gifted an entire family being ruined for her and entire career stolen from actual legacy characters because the show is still committed to forcing her to fit. Jack and Jennifer had two kids to be their legacy, but erased them because can’t have them around because it makes the retcon especially pointless. So let’s send JnJ off screen with their meaningless consolation paper because we need Gwen to be a righteous career woman now, but we weren’t clever enough to EVER define who she is as a character, so we just have to steal from everyone else & plop her in wherever.

I would love to know what exactly, in regards to Alicent, Rhaenyra was ever “completely in the wrong for.” Whatever problems Alicent had with Rhaenyra and the way Rhaenyra chose to live her life were hers alone. Rhaenyra owed Alicent, who conveniently never owns up to the fact that it was SHE who started the lies and deception in that friendship, nothing. Yeah, yeah Alicent couldn’t defy her father, but she betrayed Rhaenyra. Rhaenyra owed her nothing after that. Or Alicent’s father. Alicent should have just accepted that and moved on. She did what she had to do in service of herself and her family’s position but that meant the friendship with Rhaenyra was done. Rhaenyra was never wrong to do the same for herself. What she chose to do with her vagina, which let’s face it, was always Alicent’s real sore spot, was her business. Alicent never had any right to patrol and police it the way she did or be upset that Rhaenyra chose to make her own decisions (if Alicent felt she couldn’t do the same it’s not Rhaenyra’s problem)within the complexities of her situation regarding her sexuality and all that came with it. The only person(s) Rhaenyra owed any explanation to were her father the King and later Harwin and Laenor. Rhaenyra never did anything to Alicent to warrant all that Alicent ends up doing to her. Lying about being with Daemon in a brothel, which was none of her business and Rhaenyra was under no obligation to share if she didn’t want to, does not justify all of Alicent’s later aggressions and overreactions. It’s so funny how Otto and Alicent and a lot of their supporters love to justify themselves by talking about Rhaenyra’s sons as threats to the realm (like they genuinely cared) because they are bastards and how Rhaenyra would kill Alicent’s kids, but ignore that Alicent was big mad and jealous BEFORE Rhaenyra even had any kids. It was ALICENT, who spends a decade plus trying to hurt RHAENYRA’s children by deliberately spreading rumors about them, sowing seeds that she knew could risk their lives. And tries to put all the responsibility for the war they start in usurping Rhaenyra’s throne by sending bullshit letters about how she hasn’t forgotten the love they have for one another to manipulate her into just accepting them stealing what is rightfully hers. But it’s Rhaenyra that’s “completely in the wrong” and Alicent only goes too far at Driftmark. Yeah. Sure.

The character of Gwen, and, based on her comments in this article at least, the actress who portrays her, continue to be completely delusional and self-absorbed. Who TF is Gwen, of ALL people, to be "disappointed" in ANYONE, least of all Jack? Gwen has ruthlessly, maliciously, and without much regret, tried to KILL, hurt, and manipulate multiple members of Jack's immediate family. Repeatedly. And yet stupid, gullible, fool Jack invites her into his home and family. Yet SHE is disappointed?! Disappointed in what exactly? That, for once, and it likely won't last because Jack won't be allowed to not look like a weak fool in further propping Gwen, he's fed up with her promises to quit f-ing around with his family and her lies that she's going to try and be a better person only to turn around and do something that's the exact opposite of what she promised she would no longer do? Gwen, and the actress too, seems to think that "unconditional" means she can just do whatever the hell she wants and Jack just has to take it. Granted, Jack's actions regarding the loathsome retcon haven't shown anything different, which is the ENTIRE problem, but the lack of self-awareness with this character is just ridiculous. Ungrateful wench. Be glad anyone deals with you at all. Especially Jack. But yeah, his attitude and newfound attitude of being fed up with her making him look like a stupid idiot for continuing to support her no matter what won't last. He'll have to come crawling back when he's needed again to give her a reason to exist. And the cycle will just start all over again. She'll promise to be better for daddy and then do something else and cry foul if he dares to not like it.

Yet Gwen hasn’t been given one. Says a lot about her, doesn’t it. Lol. A serial killer can get an ornament, but not her. And daddy for once didn’t seem to gaf about it. The family Christmas was about actual family and no one made a big fuss over the irrelevant tangent who has tried to kill multiple members and is currently meddling in the marriage of one of those she tried to kill. Poor, poor Gwen.

Seriously. They are just a family like so many others with a tradition that’s meaningful to them. It doesn’t have to make perfect sense. It obviously doesn’t. And Nick, since his mother is a Horton, probably got his ornament at birth. Should it have been revoked after the Will incident? What about when Claire tried to set Ciara on fire? No one took her ornament. Neither comes close to Gwen’s Horton victims though. Still, none of these scenarios is Gwen. She’s a nothing nobody who is tolerated because Jennifer loves Jack and the rest of them love her. If Gwen thinks she deserves more, she can remove herself from their home at any time. Or stop doing things that hurt them. She’s bitching about an ornament while helping Xander gaslight Sarah. But that mean old Julie won’t let poor Gwen have an ornament. Sniff.

Plus, Gwen has shown just how much she cares about Jack and Jennifer’s marriage hasn’t she? As in, not all that much. In addition to her past attempts to blow up the marriage she feels she she have all the benefits of, she just yesterday inferred that she had some influence over Jennifer being home or not and that Julie should be grateful towards her. But yeah. She totally cares about Jack and his marriage and should benefit more from the very marriage she has so little respect for. Nevermind she’s only allowed to stay in that house is because of Jack’s marriage. But that’s Gwen’s entire problem: she thinks she can dish out whatever she wants with no real remorse, but damn if she has to account of any of it. That’s why she doesn’t like Julie. Julie isn’t dumb Jack who’s just going to pretend like she still isn’t the nasty bitch of a sociopath she’s always been. That all the nasty stuff she did isn’t just “bygones” because Jack is a weak pushover who has no loyalty to anyone anymore but the retcon. And all this talk about the Hortons being bad people (no one said they were perfect) and still having ornaments. So why does the wench want one then? Why does it matter to her if Julie, Jennifer, Abby, and the rest are so horrible and mean to poor her? Why would she want to be associated with them? She can pack up and go anytime. Her and Jack can do their own thing and not involve anything Horton at all. Better than chucking the whole thing because the retcon pouts because she didn’t get one. Comparing her to someone like Maggie to try and justify why she should get one is ridiculous. No, Maggie isn’t technically married to a Horton, but she was for decades and has remained a part of the family on her own and with her children since Mickey’s death. So I absolutely get why Victor was included. And I’m sure the difference between all those bad, bad people in the Horton family is that their bad deeds weren’t targeted, malicious, and deliberate attacks against actual Horton family members. Or least no one can claim as many victims as Gwen. Let’s see. There’s Abby, Laura, Chad, Thomas, Charlotte, Jennifer, Sarah, Maggie, JJ. Who on that tree comes close? Ben? Already covered him. Some of those bad people also had ornaments before they were “bad.” They’re still family.

Maybe she did. But nevertheless, he married an actual Horton. Basic requirement. He gets an ornament. Maybe the nasty retcon can start with not messing with a member of the Horton family for a significant amount of time before she feels entitled to an ornament. Gwen was harassing Abby up until the moment she died and was threatening Julie about Jennifer in their family home. But poor her. No one gave her an ornament. Never mind the fact she’s currently putting herself, yes with Xander’s permission, but I thought she changed according to her and stupid Jack, in the middle of Sarah’s marriage. But she thinks she should get an ornament from a family whose members mostly include people she’s actively sought to destroy. She only cares (supposedly) about Jack. Where’s she going to hang an ornament? Next to Abby and her kids? Nope. Jack? Nope, because he wants next to Jennifer, who places hers next to her kids and Laura. She hates Julie. Everyone else is either indifferent to or hates what she did to their loved ones. Dumb wench shouldn’t expect ANYTHING from the Hortons, but thinks she should get treated like everyone else. She should go and find the old Deveraux home, take her lame lapdog of a father, and start their own tradition. She acts as if she can’t stand anyone in that house/family but Jack. Like she’s so over them not liking her for all that she’s done. She can always get out of their family home if it’s just too much for her. But she won’t. Just like when her latest schemes with Xander come out, she’ll somehow be flabbergasted that the Hortons will continue to treat her like the trash she is. Why should the ornaments get retired just because some worthless newbie retcon who might be gone in a year had a sad she didn’t one? Please. I’m glad she didn’t get one. In the grand scheme of things, she matters none. And it wasn’t the moment for her. Let Jack, Jennifer, Chad, and the kids get through their first Christmas without Abby without having it become all about the person who tried multiple times to kill her, and only got lucky that she didn’t. The person who was still trying to kill her and someone beat her to it. Let this Christmas be about Eli and his kids. There were actual Hortons to focus on instead of the entitled Gwen.

Somewhat related in terms of Jack and Hope is the time period around 2002-2006 when Jack/Jennifer and Bo/Hope would hang out a lot and do things together as couples/family. They interacted with each other and each other’s children and it felt genuine and real. I wasn’t much of a fan of the Chelsea character, but it was well done how she started out as Abby’s friend hanging out in the JnJ household, but end up a part of the Bope family. It was new dynamic that JACK had the greater experience and knowledge about dealing with a teenage daughter. I just shake my head at just how much of a DAD Jack was during this time and how that all got blown to smithereens for the retcon. I really enjoyed the love and friendship between all four and the actors were all so familiar and comfortable that it played really nice on screen. I used to really get a kick out of Jack and Bo scenes because they were just so different, but were very much the same as well. I don’t remember the specifics, but I remember one instance where Jack was really hurt that Jen/Bo/Brady family deliberately kept him in the dark about Hope being kidnapped or something so that him writing about it in the paper would be more authentic or something? But they told other people like teen Belle? Again, my details might be iffy 😉, but Jack was just SO hurt that they didn’t trust him. A far cry from today where Jack is only trotted out to prop and salvage the failed retcon with a weak tie to the canvas and a reason to exist.

And yet, as awful as that crap was, I'd 100% take that Jack back over the empty shell that is present Jack. At least that Jack loved his daughter Abigail fiercely and was ready to fight Jen if she tried to keep her from him. Hell, I'd take 2019 amnesiac mayor Jack back over this current version. At least there was a reason for him to not be himself. That Jack at least cared about his kids that he already had and wasn't going to let Eve keep him from them. Memory or not. Today's Jack exists only to prop the nasty retcon. He literally ONLY shows up to continue to force the audience to buy into this supposed "bond" between Gwen and Jack. "Call me Dad." "I'm so proud of you." If you have to repeat these same lines and go through these same motions EVERY time, it's not working. No one cares about Jack and Gwen. It's never going to be what they are pushing so hard. It's so insulting to Jennifer, Abigail, and JJ. This just highlights the utter dud that is this forced father/daughter mess they are trying so hard to push with the retcon. There's nothing between the actors which makes the story even more terrible than it already was. If the story, especially involving such epic retcons and twisting of a character's ENTIRE personality, is already bad and nonsensical, then the actors really need to bring it. That's not happening here. Especially considering that MA has had tons of great fatherly rapport with Casey Moss and all the kid/teen/adult actresses who played Abigail. I LOVED him with Ashley Benson and will always be impressed how natural he and Casey Moss were when they first shared scenes in that special episode with JJ.