cheezwhiz346

I think your last reason gets the most to what bothered me about Lorelai's attitude in the April season 6 arc, which was that it felt so unusual (to me, at the time) for Lorelai to react so passively. Now, that might not in fact be the truth; I would have to go back and watch her with her other love interests throughout the show to see if she tended to be more passive, but at the time when I was first watching it felt out of character, as I normally associate Lorelai with being more outspoken. When put in the context of her friction with Rory at that point, though, even aside for how she might generally respond to conflict in romantic relationships, it definitely makes a lot more sense (also obviously agree about female characters tending to get blamed for these things more).

I think ultimately people respond the characters in certain ways for myriad reasons- which is kind of a cop out, but I really do feel like people's reactions to BtVS characters in particular are pretty complicated- I mean, there are a lot of people out there who will defend Spike and his 'redemption arc' until the end of time but will hate Faith and her arc with equal fervor, and I will never understand that, myself. W/r/t Xander, I was always bugged by how hard he could be on Buffy when it came to Angel, and how he treated the women in his life more generally. I don't think he was some put upon saint for dealing with Anya's inappropriate jokes and violent past, because he chose to be with her, and I think he had a tendency to put both her and Cordelia down when they were dating, way too much for my taste. That said, I don't think his concerns about Angel should have been brushed aside as driven solely by jealousy, and I think ultimately he was a good-hearted decent person and definitely a worthy member of the scoobies. I also didn't like the credit he seemed to get from a lot of fans for being the 'normal' one, nor did I like the idea that he was the heart of the show, as while I did think he was a good and decent person, I didn't think he really quite earned that title. It felt like an overreach, like an 'oh, he doesn't have special powers but fights anyway; that must mean he has more emotional intelligence' kind of thing. IDK, I know this is a ramble, but I guess I've always been more in the middle on Xander, never able to get on either side of the fence w/r/t liking or disliking him and his behavior. That said, I feel like that about a lot of characters on Buffy, including Willow. My biggest problem with Xander's character actually was probably what I saw as Joss Whedon's lack of interest in really doing any real character work with him past season 3 or 4.

I'm sure I have a lot of answers for this, but right now what I've been chewing on is how much my annoyance for a certain character is tied to a)how fandom at large reacts to said character and b)if fandom's reaction (or a particular attachment to the actor) influences the show's direction more than, say, the actual story. (Exhibit A: Spike, which is why, even though I really enjoyed watching him for the great majority of the time he was on BtVS and I think the actor did a wonderful job, I literally feel my teeth clench when I hear someone talk about how great he was before even mentioning the show's titular character or one of the Scoobies).

I have weird feelings re: Xander and Ross, because I enjoy watching both of them, but I agree with a lot of the issues people have with them, and I think part of that is because a)I watched BtVS and Friends when I was much younger, and wasn't as critical a TV viewer as I am now, and b)I think the actors do a tremendous job with the characters. That said, it's weird to me how in a lot of communities in which I participate (read: feminist), hating on these guys is like toeing the party line. It's not that I don't agree that they had their moments, esp. w/r/t Xander, but IDK. I feel like with Xander he got so much cred for being the 'normal guy' who 'fights the good fight' and I think that was really overblown (I see it somewhat on smaller forums like on Storywonk), but the criticism in reaction to that became more like outright hatred of everything he says or does, and I'm not comfortable with that either. I want to be able to discuss each characters' flaws without starting from a place of unequivocal hatred, which fortunately bigger forums like Previously.tv allow. (This is not meant to be discussing fandom behavior, and I tried to keep it general; but I think my feelings of the characters are somewhat tied to the reactions of others online).

Wow, I'm so glad this thread exists! There are so many for me, for so many different reasons. Mainly, I will love a female character if she's written as a strong, fully-realized character. So there are many well-written character-driven shows (like Brooklyn Nine Nine or Nikita) where I love ALL the female characters for this reason. But the ones I have felt the strongest connection to in my years of TV watching have been the following: Veronica Mars, Veronica Mars: OMG this character is everything I've ever wanted and I wouldn't change a THING about her. This isn't to say she's perfect, but her blend of toughness and meanness and her ability to walk in different worlds and communicate with different people and just how difficult she could be at times... it's just absolutely everything that a lot of female characters never get to be and I didn't know it was missing until I saw it onscreen. Cristina Yang, Grey's Anatomy: for many of the same reasons as VM, actually. She was allowed to be so badass on GA I still can't quite believe it. Grace Polk, Joan of Arcadia: there is a scene in one of the early JoA episodes when Joan looks between these popular cheerleaders laughing on one side and Grace pounding the sh*t out of her locker on the other, and this is so in-character for Grace that her outburst is never explained or addressed, and I loved her immediately. It should be noted also that Joan herself was no slouch. I have seen complaints about her self-absorption but I thought that was so recognized and called out on the show and so amazingly realistic. Joan was great. Lorelai Gilmore, Gilmore Girls: Despite the issues I have with the show overall, I will always be enamored with this character. She, especially in the earlier seasons, got a level of childlike joy out of life that I really aspire to have as well. Olivia Dunham, Fringe: Oh, thank god for this character and her low-key emotions and facial expressions and grim determination. I love about Olivia what I love about a lot of women on this list: they play against what we typically think of as female 'types.' They do not necessarily like to wear dresses or makeup or talk about their feelings (not that there's anything wrong with any of that, of course), and they do it in such a believable way. They are not trying to prove anything, they are just trying to be themselves in a world that seems to want them to be softer and more typically feminine and feelings-oriented, and I can deeply, deeply relate. Dana Scully, The X-Files and Stella Gibson, The Fall: I know they're different characters; I just figured since they're played by the same actress I'd list them together, and I love them both so much. Gillian Anderson is amazing. Joan Watson, Elementary: This is another one of those shows where I love everybody, but Joan in particular- I love the way Lucy Liu plays her. She's so determined and hardworking and restrained in such a relatable, flawed way. Zoe Washborne, Firefly: There are no words, really, but she was truly amazing and I still can't quite believe she came from a Whedon show (though Buffy herself is probably one of my favorites as well, because of just how much she was able to lead that show. Such an amazingly strong character). And OMG Faith. And Willow. And Cordelia (though I had some issues with the writing for the latter two in later seasons). Jackie Harris, Roseanne: There is not enough praise in the world for that character and the actress who gave her so much life. She was hysterical and hilarious and real. Honorable mention goes to Abbie Mills (who I love when she actually gets to be a focal point on the show, which was not as much in season 2, but season 3 is around the corner and I can't wait!), the women of Friends, and any character played by Julia Louis-Dreyfus. And there are so many more, honestly.

I definitely feel like the writing for Emily was uneven. Sometimes the conflict between her and Lorelai felt really organic, and sometimes (as noted I think somewhere on these threads) she acted like Snidely Whiplash, downright cartoonish in her manipulative villainy. In those times I felt like ASP was trying to manufacture drama in a way that left me asking why Lorelai didn't just cut herself off from her mother entirely. The stuff in season 5 in particular was way over the top for me, and the notion that Lorelai and Emily could successfully reconcile after that without some serious, serious growth on Emily's side was not credible at all to me.

I've been rewatching season 7, and just got past "Introducing Lorelai Planetarium" where Rory writes the scathing piece on Logan's trust fund friends and he (rightly) calls her out on it; the thing that most caught me off guard (other than the general money issues that I have to suspend my disbelief for within Gilmore Girls) was Rory's insistence that she didn't realize the article was mean, no matter how much she was told otherwise. I suppose it's similar to "Die, Jerk," but that was three years prior, and you'd think she'd have learned by then to notice when she was being to mean in her writing. IDK, something about Rory not being able to tell when she was being really cutting and hurtful (even in "Die, Jerk") just bugs me. Maybe it goes with her lack of self-awareness overall as a character, but she always seemed to me to be more generally aware of the feelings of the people around her. Any thoughts?

Agree with those who list Leverage as a best and HIMYM as a worst. A recent fave of mine that I thought was really well done was Psych. Lassie deliberately not hearing the end of Shawn's message, the chief and Juliet working together, the proposal that was basically from Shawn and Gus, Henry teaching, the Monk reference at the end, etc. etc. I wasn't so much a fan of that last season as a whole, but that finale was on point. Though I was never really a fan of Everybody Loves Raymond, I liked the way they chose to do their finale, which essentially ended just like every other episode but with little more of a feel of everyone spending time together. It worked for the show.

I feel like Popular as a whole really gave us a taste of what was to come with Ryan Murphy, both good and bad. Season 1 will always be amazing to me, however.

There has been some talk in the Nitpicking thread about how much Lorelai really knew/accepted about Rory, herself, and how much she was projecting her own personality onto Rory (and Rory going with that and then that changing throughout the show, esp. in the later seasons). ITA with that whole point, and I just wanted to post on here to say that I've come back to the show quite a bit since its original run (I was Rory's age when it first aired), and who I 'side' with, particularly in terms of Lorelai and Rory, still switches back and forth frequently, even though now I'm closer to Lorelai's age. I actually think I've become more sympathetic to Rory's side of things over the years than I once was (though she still grates on my nerves a lot of the time, just personality-wise), because I can look back and see how hard it's been as I've become a fully-grown adult to really convince my parents of that fact, and that I'm of the age at this point where certain things are just part of my personality and cannot be brushed aside as things I will grow out of. Rory's growing independence was actually very realistically done; I just wish it was characterized by behaviors that still allowed me to like Rory as much as I did to begin with. Because even though I acknowledge that she was becoming her own person and that in itself is a good thing, I still don't really like the person she seemed to become in the later seasons. Not that she was a bad person, just not a character I liked anymore.

I'm rewatching Dead Uncles and Vegetables, and this is such a small moment, but this is the episode where the farmer's market is competing with Doose's Market, and at the town meeting everyone's waxing poetic about the farmer's market veggies and Babette's delivery of "Sexy. It's Sexy Squash" complete with hand gestures had me cracking up. Also, this is the episode where I lose it every time Luke gets to the part of his casket rant where he calls his uncle King Tut.

Yeah, BtVS was frustrating because it wasn't supposed to be quite so morally grey, like Angel was, and yet by the end of the series Buffy and the Scoobies had done some really egregious things. I mean, I understand as you grow up you see more of the shades of grey in things, but when you examine that kind of thing in a TV show you have to be careful, because you're messing with the show's entire mythology.

Yeah, I definitely feel that too, whenever he puts stuff like that in his writing (which is often, but not quite as much as certain other writers) it feels so separate from the plots/characters themselves; it's like, "okay, everybody, pause; here's Joss's message." And it's not even a good, well-thought out message; it's overly simplistic and cheesy and often it feels like the plot/scene/whatever was twisted to get there. YES. I still get chills, sometimes, with the little girl, despite myself, but it does feel like pandering. Oh, all we need to do is stand up, you say? Well golly, there we go then. No more violence against women/systemic issues/patriarchy here! I get that it's a metaphor and I like the message of sharing power but they could've done it better, I think. I like the treatment of the slayer spell in that one episode of Angel season 5 where the girl in the institution gets powers. I still don't like how it ends, but at least it's an acknowledgement that maybe things weren't quite as simple as they were presented in 'Chosen.'

1. Who are your five favorite characters? Lorelai, Lane, Sookie (early seasons), Paris, Luke 2. Who are your five LEAST favorite characters? Rory (I have complicated feelings about Rory as a character overall, though), Logan, Anna, T.J., sometimes Emily in the later seasons 3. What are your three favorite romantic relationships throughout the series? Lane/Zach (this is not endorsement of Lane's pregnancy storyline, however ;)), Luke/Lorelai, Sookie/Jackson & Babette/Morey are tied 4. What are your three LEAST favorite romantic relationships throughout the series? Luke/Lorelai, Rory/Logan (I don't actually hate Logan, I just didn't think his presence brought anything actually good to the show), probably Rory/Jess 5. What are your five favorite non-romantic relationships? (Friendships, familial relationships, etc.) Paris/Rory, Lorelai/Rory, Lorelai/Luke, Lane/her band, Emily/Richard (obviously they are romantic, but I enjoy them as a partnership in general), Babette/Miss Patty, Luke/Jess, I'm sure there are more. 6. Name one hypothetical romantic pairing that you might have liked to see. Paris and anybody Paris didn't actually date on the show; I think Jess would be interesting, but there are plenty of other guys I think they could've brought on that Paris would've clicked with. 7. Rank all seven seasons from favorite to least favorite---no ties :) 1, 2, 4, 3, 5, 7, 6 8. If you could keep just 15 episodes, they would be___ These change pretty frequently, and are not necessarily the ones I find myself rewatching the most right now, but they're the ones I think I'd want to have: Love and War and Snow Forgiveness and Stuff The Breakup, Part 2 Red Light on the Wedding Night A-Tisket, A-Tasket Dead Uncles and Vegetables One's Got Class and the Other One Dyes They Shoot Gilmores, Don't They? A Deep-Fried Korean Thanksgiving A Tale of Poes and Fire The Lorelais' First Day at Yale Last Weeks Fights, This Weeks Tights Raincoats and Recipes Pulp Friction Bon Voyage Man, I feel like there's so much wavering and conditions in my answers to the first few questions. This show does that to me.

I always go back and forth on this, because I have no idea exactly what people are looking for in journalism students who are still so young and inexperienced. I mean, it's good to be assertive, but I also think it's crap to offer someone an internship for journalism experience, then only give them clerical and administrative experience, and then claim that, based on a few weeks of work in that internship, they don't have what it takes. Now, I can see someone like Mitchum, who I think probably has a very skewed view about the job market and what it means to be a young woman (esp. Rory, who has been particularly socialized to play up her niceness more than her ambition, I think) in a competitive field like that, saying what he said, and I do think as a journalist Rory would need to learn to be more assertive, but things like that can be learned, and take time. His expectations for that short of a time period were unreasonable and out of touch, IMO. Regarding Logan and his influence on Rory, I think, as others have discussed, that Rory was influenced because she could be. I feel like she had much more backbone in the earlier seasons, and later on wavered between wishy-washy and agressive. I've never been a big Logan fan, but much like Rory's relationship with Jess, it's Rory's behavior in the relationship that bugs me more than anything else.