Demented Daisy

Yeah, something is off. For season 11: How could the average be lower than the lowest number of viewers? S10 looks okay, but S8 is screwy again (high 2.51, avg 2.52). Same with S7 (high 2.011, avg 2.03). The rest look fine. Odd. Oh, but this should probably be in the ratings thread.

Oh no! I was wondering why he had gone silent on Twitter. :-( Hope he's better very soon.

I think it would be rather foolhardy for any of them to remark on the ratings simply because it's a many-headed beast. No one reason for ratings to go up or down. If so, they would be awfully easy to manipulate, right?

Hee! Lauren Tom just liked my tweet. *giggle* I do so love the SPN family. :-)

Or try this: http://www.brilliantbutcancelled.com/show/supernatural/

Ooh, ooh! (In my best Gunther Toody voice -- kids, ask your grandparents.) Can we add Mrs. Tran to that list? She could be Professor of... uh, How to Survive Long Term Demon Abduction. :-)

Now, Ditty, that is entirely too logical. You know better than that. ;-)

I can't take credit. It's an old name taken from our Television Without Pity days.

Wait a minute. You're going to question my methods, but not even go back to the page of the thread, which I provided for you, to understand what my methods actually are? Yes, definitely agree to disagree.

My daughter (who was 9 when the show started), didn't start watching until it was available to stream, which must have been after Jan, 2012 (when we moved back to the US and streaming became available to us) -- so, after S7? She and her friends still watch, but since they're in college, they doesn't have time to watch live. She binges during the summer. I think that's probably the norm for people her age (i.e. in college). But she could be an outlier.

No, false equivalency there. I said: Definitive implies that I think that my numbers are the absolute last word on the subject. I have certainly never said that. Again, I recommend that people start with page 23 of the Bitterness thread.

I never said it was definitive. Everyone is free to accept or reject my numbers as they see fit. I have never claimed otherwise. I'm curious, though -- what about my parameters make you think it is subjective?

Yes, which is what I have always said.

But what I'm trying to explain is that the way I count it is not subjective. It is literal. For example: Dean kill. One could argue that Sam got the assist, but it was Dean who plunged the blade into her stomach. Yes. What happens after Sam and Dean leave town is entirely out of their control. She's going to die eventually, anyway. Another example, Clip Show -- Crowley killed people that Sam and Dean previously saved, but I'm not going to go back and take them off the "save" list. I'm not going to continue to argue this point. What the show says is immaterial to my parameters. Agree to disagree.

That is considered, by my parameters, a kill but not a save. I count lives, not souls. Souls, IMO, are subjective because that's not always something that is cut-and-dry (see Crowley taking Bobby's soul to Hell). When I started all of this, the argument was much like it is now, how unequal things were. I was curious to see if conventional wisdom was correct, that Dean was the killer while Sam was the planner. No, because that is subjective. If someone wants to make that list, more power to them. I don't make a distinction between types of kill because that would be subjective. (Dean got "credit" for the kill in Repo Man; I haven't finished my analysis of season 12 yet.)

By all means. But my methods make the numbers as objective as they can possibly be, IMO. That has always been my intent, to provide raw data. How people interpret that data is entirely up to them.

Checking my notes on Wendigo, I counted it as a joint save and Dean got the kill. Since Lester's wife didn't die, I can't answer that one. And, for what it's worth, I only count what Sam and Dean do because that's the source of conflict within fandom. And, as I said, it's my list with my parameters. If you reject my parameters, fair enough. But I can, within my parameters, call it a joint save. Except, I just double-checked my notes and I was incorrect. I did not count it as a joint save. I counted it as "no save" because no characters were shown, on screen, to be saved. Sam and Dean figuratively saved billions, but not literally. Mea culpa.

I disagree that the show doesn't count it as a joint save. Too many writers, too many show runners, to say that "the show" believes one thing over another, IMO.

You're new around here and I took a break for several weeks, so I understand why you're confused. When I ask a question, I am always genuine. I have zero interest in "gotcha" questions, nor will you find an instance of me asking one. If I ask a question, it is because I genuinely don't understand and am asking for clarification. Nothing more, nothing less. (ETA If I am being facetious, which I often do, I will include a ";-)" to indicate so.) If the possessed is still alive after an exorcism, I count it as a save. I count everyone/everything that dies on screen. As I already stated. Since I'm making the lists, I'm following my own parameters. I never said otherwise. If someone disagrees with my parameters, they are (of course) free to make their own lists. I am not infallible, nor have I ever claimed to be. When people have questioned my numbers, I have adjusted accordingly. I highly recommend, though, before questioning my methods or numbers, you (general you) read the original thread and my explanations.

Whoops! Sorry.

I counted Swan Song as a joint save because it was a joint effort. Exorcism is not a kill. Stabbing a host with the demon-killing knife, thus killing the demon, is a kill. Banishing a ghost is not a kill. Destroying a ghost is a kill. Sam did not kill Constance, so, no, not a kill. An assist is just that, an assist.

No, that does not make sense to me. How is it subjective that Sam/Dean killed in x number of episodes?

A kill is a kill. A save is a save. I don't understand the confusion there. If Dean shoots the monster while Sam is shielding or ushering the PiP out, then Dean gets credit for the kill while Sam gets credit for a save. And vice versa. If Dean and Sam both kill a monster in an episode, it's credited as a joint kill. Same with the saves. The most subjective is who gets credit for the plan. But that's the one I struggle with the most. If they use Sam's research to kill the MotW, then Sam gets credit. If they use Dean's experience or instincts, then Dean gets credit. If they use both, then it's a joint plan. If the plan goes out the window, then no one gets credit. Not the way I count it. If Sam or Dean say "I'm sorry", unless it's the above mentioned situation, I count it as an apology. 100% literal. Same with "I was wrong" or "You were right."

But I think Ditty's point (sorry for speaking for you) is that we don't see Sam calling people for a chat -- not like we see Dean calling people he cares about. Another instance of how they should show, not tell.

It's all subjective -- that's the point I was making. As an example of subjectivity, when Bobby calls people "idjits", sometimes it's lovingly, sometimes it's a genuine insult, sometimes it's a joke. In contrast, when I make my lists, those things are easily pointed to as who got a kill, who got a save, who apologized, etc. The only time I don't count it when someone says they are sorry is "I'm sorry, but..." statements. Those are not genuine apologies but a figure of speech. Regardless, I can point to the transcript -- it's not a matter of opinion, it's what the character said/did.