S01.E06: Burning Love

[Auntie Anxiety]

4 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

That and the fake cross-ex came off so sarcastic and bossy and lasted way too long.  Normally therapists lead you to make decisions, not insist you make them now, using intimidation.

Dr. Calamity Jane needed a way to get through to Celeste who is in deep denial and continues to blame herself for Perry's behavior. Since Celeste is an attorney, Dr. CJ came at her with that same approach, something Celeste would be able to identify with a finally understand.

[madam magpie]

18 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I thought she was telling Ziggy he couldn't go to the play with her because it was Avenue Q.  

She said that too. But when she went onto the porch, he was learning something on the guitar. She told him he could play whatever the song was, but he couldn't sing it.

I think the therapist was joking about the BBB. She was calling Celeste on her denial bullshit.

[scrb]

I don't know if the therapist convinced her or Perry saying "you're lucky I didn't kill you" snapped Celeste into action -- getting that dingy apt. which still has amazing ocean views with a giant deck on top of the water.

I thought for sure the next thing she was going to do is to tell Madeleine about the abuse, as a way of building her case.  

But Maddy has her hands full, with Ed expressing his feelings of inadequacy (did he consider that this confession may make her even more detached towards him?) and Abigail with her little white slavery/jail bait project ("white girl from Monterey").

Meanwhile Ed is so insecure that he thinks the injury Celeste's backhand smash to Perry's groin was incurred in the throes of passion.  Why the hell would Celeste tell them the urethra in Perry's penis was broken in two places?

[chocolatine]

1 hour ago, scrb said:

Why the hell would Celeste tell them the urethra in Perry's penis was broken in two places?

I thought that was Celeste opening the door for Madeline to ask questions so that Celeste could finally confide to her about the violence. Remember, she tried that earlier in the season, when she talked about having sex after fights, but Madeline didn't realize Celeste meant physical fights.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Inside the episode:

[albaniantv]

That apartment looking over the ocean didn't look dingy to me. I'm packing now and taking all my windex with me. And the shrink. With that shrink and that view, I just know all my problems would be resolved. 

Didn't know there was a book--or that next week is the last episode. Somehow I thought there were two left, damn. Speaking of two, I have assumed without any evidence, that one or both of the twins have been bruising and biting little girls, copying the way they've seen their dad treat their mom. Maybe it seems too textbook but we haven't been given any other clues that I noticed.

Most of the songs are familiar to me musically, but I'm no good at recalling lyrics. So I just turn on my captions and read away, often surprised to see what the actual words to a song are.(Compared to what I swear I heard...)

This has been a great ride and so much grittier than I expected, not ready for it to end. 

[AmandaPanda]

5 hours ago, Keepitmoving said:

Yeah you're right, this was the safe plan in this  episode. In last week's episode the therapist said that for their next session they needed to come up with an exit plan for Celeste and that is exactly what they did this week.  She was all kinds of awesome, she told Celeste I'll give you the number to the Better Business Bureau and you can go right ahead and report me, whatever. I'm still doing my job, trying to help you save your life and the lives of your kids, and giving you this exit plan and schooling you on what will happen if you don't take my prescription for your diagnosis.

There would be a lot more to an actual safety plan. For instance, when's Perry's next business trip? It's probably safest to try and leave when he's out of town. How are you going to pay for this apartment? With a control freak like Perry, there's no way they have separate checking accounts. So, she would need to either already have some money stashed away or would need to start funneling money from the joint account in smaller amounts that he wouldn't notice. Has she talked to her landlord about needing extra locks on the doors? Has she set up a PO box so that her apartment could stay unlisted? The fact that the show is having the therapist present it as something as simple as "Just get an apartment and start preparing for the custody battle" is completely irresponsible. There's so much more that actually goes into it. It's not necessarily compelling TV, but it's a lot more realistic than what this therapist is doing. 

[LydiaE]

Notice that the French nanny was featured again in the episode and Renata treated her badly and dismissively.  I still wouldn't rule her out as the abuser of Amabella.  This would showcase Renata's lack of instinct as a mother. Renata is a bully and she has chosen to place a bully under her payroll as the caregiver of her meek child.

[mochamajesty]

5 hours ago, anniebird said:

In the first episode Bonnie (I think) referred to the fact that Skye and Abigail are half-sisters so that would make her Nathan's biological daughter.

Did anyone else notice when Skye walked into the room and screamed everyone forgot about Abigail? They literally left her standing in the room alone. This may be my Nathan hate speaking, but the message that I have received from that was "Skye is upset and you do not matter."  Nathan shouls have let Bonnie handle Skye and he should have stayed with Abigail 

17 minutes ago, LydiaE said:

Notice that the French nanny was featured again in the episode and Renata treated her badly and dismissively.  I still wouldn't rule her out as the abuser of Amabella.  This would showcase Renata's lack of instinct as a mother. Renata is a bully and she has chosen to place a bully under her payroll as the caregiver of her meek child.

Renata's scene with Jane highlighted the fact that Amabella should have been take to a therapist.

[CofCinci]

My DVR shows only one hour for next week. How on Earth does this all get wrapped up?

[FemmyV]

Just for kicks.

http://gph.is/2mHsD9v

Edited March 27, 2017 by FemmyV

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Run, Celeste, run! One of the scary things once an abused person has begun making plans to escape is that it leaves a trail. Getting an apartment means running a credit check (which you can see on your credit report) and putting down a deposit of first month, last month, and security is not an insignificant amount of money. Celeste wouldn't just have that much lying around in cash so she would have to put it on a credit card which means Perry could see it on the monthly statement. I think Perry is rich enough that he doesn't care how much money Celeste normally spends but that he would notice if she had a huge charge on her credit card.

What kind of a dick goes out of town and then tells his spouse she can't go to a play while he's gone? Oh yeah, an abusive asshole who just wants to exercise his control over her even when he's almost a thousand miles away. As soon as he came home early claiming to be back for the play, I knew he was going to somehow manipulate the situation to keep her from going. My friend's girlfriend was emotionally manipulative and she would do stuff like that all the time. He would make plans to see me and then at the last minute she would pick a huge fight with him (sometimes as he was literally walking out the door, hand on the doorknob) which kept him from showing up.

The twins' nanny seemed very concerned when Celeste and Perry returned home, so I wonder how much she knows about the abuse.

I thought it was very mature of Jane to go to Renata to apologize and explain that she knows how she feels. I had to laugh when Harper tried to butt in later in front of the school to see if everything was okay and Renata just blew her off.

5 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I thought she was telling Ziggy he couldn't go to the play with her because it was Avenue Q.  

It's an hour.  HBO even planned for 8 one-hour episodes but Vallee said he was done after 7.  (Honestly, I think it could've been done fine in much less.)

Ziggy was sitting on the porch playing the guitar and Jane came out from the house and said, "Remember, you're not allowed to sing that one. You can play it, but you can't sing it." They hadn't started talking about the play yet.

Yup, the tv listings show the finale episode is one hour.

6 hours ago, Keepitmoving said:

By the way, is Bonnie's daughter Nathan's, biologically? I can't remember if that is his daughter or did he meet her and she already had her daughter.

Yes, Skye is Nathan and Bonnie's daughter. It was mentioned a few times in the first couple of episodes (the cutest was when Chloe explained Skye's relationship to her to Ziggy).

Edited March 27, 2017 by ElectricBoogaloo

[Ina123]

The one twin lost a tooth and immediately after Daddy walks in having been away. Boys run into Daddy's arms. I would expect the toothless twin to shriek, "Daddy, I lost a tooth!" Nope. Nothing.

I took the Better Business Bureau comment as light sarcasm. Obviously incorrect but the type of comment anyone would make.

[stagmania]

7 hours ago, lmsweb said:

I'm on re-watch and I really think Maddie is pregnant. They sort of made a big point of panning over the fish and oysters (both of which would be obvious triggers in a pregnant woman).

Where would they even fit that revelation in with only one hour to go? What would be the point of it?

7 hours ago, riverheightsnancy said:

The BBB has nothing to do with licensing of psychologists. In reality the BBB is a farce. Many companies that have a good rating purchase them (especially if they have had numerous complaints). The appropriate organization to complain to,  would be the State Licensing Board for Psychologists in each individual state (this is where people can actually look up if a doctor or nurse, or psychologist has complaints against them-any licensed person actually). Since the state is responsible for granting a license to practice, THEY hold all the power in respect to ethical issues. Business matters due fall under the purview of ethical issues for psychologists. 

Her comment about the BBB was facetious; she was calling Celeste's bluff. 

7 hours ago, Muffyn said:

You've all covered how wonderful Robin Weigert is as the therapist.  I like her character's no holds barred approach.  She knows Perry is escalating.  How long does Celeste have?      

I think this is key to understanding why she's being pushy with Celeste. She can feel the big escalation coming and seems to be genuinely afraid for her life.

2 hours ago, AmandaPanda said:

There would be a lot more to an actual safety plan. For instance, when's Perry's next business trip? It's probably safest to try and leave when he's out of town. How are you going to pay for this apartment? With a control freak like Perry, there's no way they have separate checking accounts. So, she would need to either already have some money stashed away or would need to start funneling money from the joint account in smaller amounts that he wouldn't notice. Has she talked to her landlord about needing extra locks on the doors? Has she set up a PO box so that her apartment could stay unlisted? The fact that the show is having the therapist present it as something as simple as "Just get an apartment and start preparing for the custody battle" is completely irresponsible. There's so much more that actually goes into it. It's not necessarily compelling TV, but it's a lot more realistic than what this therapist is doing. 

We don't see the whole therapy session onscreen, so I assume there was a lot more to their safety plan discussions, including all the details you mention above. Given her clear understanding of the legal defense that would be used against Celeste and the few suggestions we did see her make, I think we can infer that she's well aware of the dangers and logistics of trying to stay safe when leaving.

[Dminches]

Spoiler

Perry must be both the person killed and Jane's rapist (assuming there is one).  The question is if Jane kills him after seeing him at the school event or if Celeste does it, or both.

My thoughts (in a spoiler box) on what is about to unfold.  I did not read the book.  

[Mindthinkr]

I also raised my eyebrows with @AmandaPanda when she mentioned the money needed for this new apartment for Celeste. I'm sure she would have made money in her previous career as a lawyer but how would she have kept it or an account hidden from Perry all these years?  That's probably why he didn't want her to return to work. Abusers like to cut their victims off from their support (friends, family and money). I thought for sure he'd find out about it and she'd get a black eye for it. I was also concerned when she flew out the door on the guise of having dinner with Jane and Perry just sat on the couch with his boys. You could see the beginnings of his control behavior over them tho when he took away their snacks (a projection of anger because he was mad she left without warning). Had his manhood not been injured I would have expected to see him show up at Janes and be peeved that Celeste had lied and was not there (or out with her) eating dinner. Or a phone call to check on her. 

Havent read the book so I'm excited for the conclusion next week. 

[lovinbob]

7 hours ago, chocolatine said:

I thought Nathan's reaction was the most natural of all four adults. If it was me, I'd also immediately start screaming at the kid and go for the laptop. I would calm down eventually and try to have a rational conversation, but my first reaction to that kind of thing would be to flip out. I also loved it that when Bonnie criticized Nathan's cereal, his response was to pour more of it into his bowl. Damnit, this episode made me like Nathan.

Nathan does absolutely nothing for me, but I think his reaction was normal and appropriate. I couldn't believe that Abigail had the laptop at the end of that scene. I also couldn't believe that he didn't tell Madeline right away and saved the big reveal for dinner. This was a crisis, IMO, not an "I'll tell you when I see you" situation. It made Bonnie and Nathan look stupid and inept.

6 hours ago, scrb said:

I don't know if the therapist convinced her or Perry saying "you're lucky I didn't kill you" snapped Celeste into action -- getting that dingy apt. which still has amazing ocean views with a giant deck on top of the water.

Not that I would think that Celeste would want to live somewhere shitty, but I was surprised to see an apartment with those views.

Kudos to the poster upthread who noticed the dirty windows. I didn't notice that, but ... interesting.

[TheNewJanBrady]

I totally thought Perry was going to show up at Jane's looking for Celeste and the stress was killing me.

And I think Ed definitely knows about the affair. It comes up when he's talking to Madeline about their lack of passionate sex--she starts to bring it up, he says he doesn't want to hear another word, and she kisses his hand in contrition. I thought that scene was so well-acted.

[Uncle JUICE]

If there's a guy not named Adam Scott who wins best male (or supporting) performance in a mini series, I demand a congressional inquiry. He's been awesome from the beginning (as has everyone, really, especially Witherspoon), but last night that guy killed me. His thoughts on marriage were heartbreaking because I think everyone can feel that way at times, it was just so identifiable. And for men to feel that way, it's not really something we talk to each other about, but it's distressing. Even if your wife hasn't cheated on you, or you don't suspect she has a flame somewhere, even if things just seem like they're in this predictable track (which is essentially what we call stability in a relationship), every one of us, and I don't think it's just men, thinks at some point or another why are we not having this amazing sex like (we suspect) everyone else is, especially when everything else in our lives seem so in order. The way he approached that idea, the way the story approached it, was gut wrenchingly authentic: I don't say anything about how much you don't seem like you think about our sex lives because THAT would further ruin our sex lives. Because then I'd never believe you really wanted me the way I wish you would, and even if you did, I'd suspect you, and that's tainted too. I don't touch you because I know you don't want it as much as I do, or as often. 

I don't remember any show addressing this sort of issue before, it's a hard issue for men to talk about. Just outstanding. And Adam Scott really punctuated it. 

[Juliegirlj]

I think Celeste should have done something more permanent to Perry's penis...Dangerous times for Celeste right now- planning a possible exit with a violent control freak breathing down her neck. 

Poor Ed. He and Joseph's wife both knew about the affair, but are both so in love with their respective spouses that they choose to look the other way. 

Abigail is not emotionally mature enough for Maddie to be sharing her infidelity guilt with. The kid obviously has parent issues-hence the selling her hymen for attention. 

Jane empathizing with Renata was so utterly adult and evolved. Seems Renata just needs a friend?! 

Not liking Bonnie. She seems to have a bit of nefarious underbelly. The vomiting was too much for shock value. 

[Eyes High]

9 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Those people are called bullies

This truth right here! If the only way someone will treat you with basic courtesy and respect is if you call them on their bullshit and refuse to let them walk all over you, that person is a bully and an asshole, full stop.

There is nothing admirable about Renata, in my opinion. She's nothing but a bully, and the only way to deal with bullies to kick their ass, either legally as Celeste did with Avenue Q, or physically as Jane did. Renata's howling about her eye was the most satisfying part of the episode, except for maybe Celeste hitting Perry in the crotch.

There were some great lines in this episode, like the principal's rueful "I should have taken that job in Reykjavik."

The dress Jane wore to the play was so 1990s.

Bonnie has some nerve sniping about Nathan eating cocoa puffs when she was seen smoking earlier in the episode.

Edited March 27, 2017 by Eyes High

[dmc]

Madeline puking on Bonnie gave me life. Seriously, there is nothing progressive about an auction selling your virginity.

[hoodooznoodooz]

I rewatched in slow motion but can't figure out how Jane's shove resulted in Renata's eye injury.  Also, wouldn't this be a really reckless move by Jane? Now she has given everyone a reason to conclude, "Oh, Jane is violent, no wonder Ziggy is bullying Amabella."

What was Nathan passive-aggressively eating? Cocoa Puffs? Bonnie scoffed, but why is it even in their house? I doubt she would buy it for Skye. And I don't think Abigail would still be into Cocoa Puffs.

Was Celeste aiming for Perry's penis or just trying to hit him with the racquet?

I would have thought Bonnie was a vegan.

[Atlanta]

Just now, hoodooznoodooz said:

I rewatched in slow motion but can't figure out how Jane's shove resulted in Renata's eye injury.  Also, wouldn't this be a really reckless move by Jane? Now she has given everyone a reason to conclude, "Oh, Jane is violent, no wonder Ziggy is bullying Amabella."

What was Nathan passive-aggressively eating? Cocoa Puffs? Bonnie scoffed, but why is it even in their house? I doubt she would buy it for Skye. And I don't think Abigail would still be into Cocoa Puffs.

Was Celeste aiming for Perry's penis or just trying to hit him with the racquet?

I would have thought Bonnie was a vegan.

You're never too old for Cocoa Puffs. :D If Bonnie was going to allow cereal in the house, I would have assumed it would be an organic brand from Whole Foods. 

[mojoween]

I generally don't care about Nathan one way or the other and the actor portraying him doesn't do much for me looks-wise, but him passive-aggressively tossing more Cocoa Puffs into what looked like an already full bowl of cereal may be my favorite part of the entire series.  His indignation was perfect.

I really don't even see how Bonnie and Nathan ever got together.  They are nothing alike.

[vibeology]

2 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I thought it was very mature of Jane to go to Renata to apologize and explain that she knows how she feels. I had to laugh when Harper tried to butt in later in front of the school to see if everything was okay and Renata just blew her off.

Everything about that scene with Harper just slayed me. It's been such a small role but Kelen Coleman has been killing it every appearance.

I was so happy to see the return of the nannies. They didn't really do anything, but it was nice to see them there.

Perry's escalation is truly terrifying. I love everything about this show but the Celeste and Perry story is far and away the best. It fills me with complete dread. Both Nicole and Alexander are perfect in these roles and I have never been more frightened for Celeste. Perry is angry and as soon as he feels well enough, Celeste will pay for that injury.

I think Abigal's special project was very much underplayed by the adults in her life. Even Madeline didn't seem as freaked out as I think she should have been considering. All the adults should have taken it more seriously and not been so concerned about making Abigail feel as though she was doing something noble. The dinner and vomiting did amuse me though and everything about Maddie/Ed was really well done.

[Dminches]

3 minutes ago, mojoween said:

I generally don't care about Nathan one way or the other and the actor portraying him doesn't do much for me looks-wise...

He looks to me like a Tom Berenger look alike.

[humbleopinion]

Carob Puffs-the hippy dippy version of being coo coo for Cocoa Puffs.

Plus not organic cow milk... it would be a almond/flax seed/rice/hemp milk substitute.

Thought the detente dinner entree was fishy...pun intended.

Why would Earth Mother Bonnie serve something for dinner with a face?

[nara]

23 minutes ago, hoodooznoodooz said:

I rewatched in slow motion but can't figure out how Jane's shove resulted in Renata's eye injury.  Also, wouldn't this be a really reckless move by Jane? Now she has given everyone a reason to conclude, "Oh, Jane is violent, no wonder Ziggy is bullying Amabella."

But Jane has shown us before that she is reckless-- with her smoking pot while driving, confronting and sniffing Saxon Baker, sleeping with a gun, etc.

8 minutes ago, mojoween said:

I really don't even see how Bonnie and Nathan ever got together.  They are nothing alike.

I think she represents how he wants to see himself.

[mochamajesty]

34 minutes ago, hoodooznoodooz said:

I rewatched in slow motion but can't figure out how Jane's shove resulted in Renata's eye injury.  Also, wouldn't this be a really reckless move by Jane? Now she has given everyone a reason to conclude, "Oh, Jane is violent, no wonder Ziggy is bullying Amabella."

What was Nathan passive-aggressively eating? Cocoa Puffs? Bonnie scoffed, but why is it even in their house? I doubt she would buy it for Skye. And I don't think Abigail would still be into Cocoa Puffs.

Was Celeste aiming for Perry's penis or just trying to hit him with the racquet?

I would have thought Bonnie was a vegan.

This is the first thing that I thought of. That's why I was so surprised that the Renata/Jane dynamic ended the way that it did.

17 minutes ago, vibeology said:

Everything about that scene with Harper just slayed me. It's been such a small role but Kelen Coleman has been killing it every appearance.

I was so happy to see the return of the nannies. They didn't really do anything, but it was nice to see them there.

Perry's escalation is truly terrifying. I love everything about this show but the Celeste and Perry story is far and away the best. It fills me with complete dread. Both Nicole and Alexander are perfect in these roles and I have never been more frightened for Celeste. Perry is angry and as soon as he feels well enough, Celeste will pay for that injury.

I think Abigal's special project was very much underplayed by the adults in her life. Even Madeline didn't seem as freaked out as I think she should have been considering. All the adults should have taken it more seriously and not been so concerned about making Abigail feel as though she was doing something noble. The dinner and vomiting did amuse me though and everything about Maddie/Ed was really well done.

I agree. This is irresponsible parenting, IMO.  Nathan should have taken Abigail's laptop IMO. If Abigail actually thinks that this is a good idea, she is not mature enough to handle Madeleine's secret.

[teddysmom]

  8 hours ago, madam magpie said:

She said that too. But when she went onto the porch, he was learning something on the guitar. She told him he could play whatever the song was, but he couldn't sing it.

I think the therapist was joking about the BBB. She was calling Celeste on her denial bullshit.

You're right, Jane did say both.  

The music was a little too 'on the nose' for me, this ep, with Papa Was a Rolling Stone.  And the kids being so, so into grown-up music is getting overdone.  We get it, they're little adults and they hear everything going on around them.  

I know people love the therapy scenes but I also didn't think the BBB joke was funny or appropriate.  The client is questioning the boundaries of their relationship and she makes a joke that she's going to ignore the normal ethical boundaries and do whatever to make Celeste safe?  She may as well have suggested she was reporting Perry to the police.  I guess I'm sensitive having just finished the book where most of this was handled with more subtlety.

I'm sure the therapist is getting frustrated that Celeste doesn't see she needs a plan, like yesterday. I swear to God some of the stuff the therapist said to Celeste, I have said to a friend of mine trying to get out of a bad marriage almost verbatim. She's not being physically abused, thank God, but she keeps making excuses for her husband's terrible behavior, blames herself for him being a drunk, and doesn't want anyone thinking he's a monster.

While I watched BLL last night I kept thinking of her, and hoping she sees that it's not just friends who say this stuff, a professional person gives the same advice.

I loved how the therapist pointed out what Perry's attorney would say to Celeste in a custody hearing.

[teddysmom]

I totally thought Perry was going to show up at Jane's looking for Celeste and the stress was killing me.

And I think Ed definitely knows about the affair. It comes up when he's talking to Madeline about their lack of passionate sex--she starts to bring it up, he says he doesn't want to hear another word, and she kisses his hand in contrition. I thought that scene was so well-acted.

I thought the same thing! Or he'd call her.

[teddysmom]

  8 hours ago, chocolatine said:

I thought Nathan's reaction was the most natural of all four adults. If it was me, I'd also immediately start screaming at the kid and go for the laptop. I would calm down eventually and try to have a rational conversation, but my first reaction to that kind of thing would be to flip out. I also loved it that when Bonnie criticized Nathan's cereal, his response was to pour more of it into his bowl. Damnit, this episode made me like Nathan.

Nathan does absolutely nothing for me, but I think his reaction was normal and appropriate. I couldn't believe that Abigail had the laptop at the end of that scene. I also couldn't believe that he didn't tell Madeline right away and saved the big reveal for dinner. This was a crisis, IMO, not an "I'll tell you when I see you" situation. It made Bonnie and Nathan look stupid and inept.

  8 hours ago, scrb said:

I don't know if the therapist convinced her or Perry saying "you're lucky I didn't kill you" snapped Celeste into action -- getting that dingy apt. which still has amazing ocean views with a giant deck on top of the water.

Not that I would think that Celeste would want to live somewhere shitty, but I was surprised to see an apartment with those views.

Kudos to the poster upthread who noticed the dirty windows. I didn't notice that, but ... interesting.

The windows were realistic. Vacant apartments sometimes sit for a few months, and don't get a "spruce" til they're leased. I work in prop mgmt and it's one of the things that drives us crazy about our crews, that they don't notice stuff and then we show spaces and they look bad.

[Dminches]

1 minute ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I don't think there's that much to wrap up.  Reveal the bully and rapist each in a scene, then show the trivia night incident and a little aftermath.   

How about the murdered victim and the murderer?

[Dminches]

1 minute ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

That's the trivia night incident.  (That's not a spoiler, that's from the opening scene of the show.)

Right, but we don't know who was killed, who did it and how.  They need to cover that in the final hour in addition to who the rapist is and who did the bullying.

[sasha206]

1 hour ago, hoodooznoodooz said:

I rewatched in slow motion but can't figure out how Jane's shove resulted in Renata's eye injury.  Also, wouldn't this be a really reckless move by Jane? Now she has given everyone a reason to conclude, "Oh, Jane is violent, no wonder Ziggy is bullying Amabella."

What was Nathan passive-aggressively eating? Cocoa Puffs? Bonnie scoffed, but why is it even in their house? I doubt she would buy it for Skye. And I don't think Abigail would still be into Cocoa Puffs.

Was Celeste aiming for Perry's penis or just trying to hit him with the racquet?

I would have thought Bonnie was a vegan.

I was also waiting for that correlation made too.

And maybe it's me but watching Laura Dern in those scenes, I found her thinness really alarming.

[topanga]

Just now, sasha206 said:

I was also waiting for that correlation made too.

And maybe it's me but watching Laura Dern in those scenes, I found her thinness really alarming.

I wish Jane would go to therapy to deal with her PTSD and her impulse issues. 

Laura Dern was thin in 'Jurassic Park,' but I don't remember her looking quite so skeletal. And she wore shorts throughout the movie. Maybe she's one of those women who gets thinner as they age instead of heavier. 

[vibeology]

23 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I'm glad they said they'd never let Abigail's site go live but I'm not sure taking her laptop would really prevent it.  Most things don't exist on one machine these days.  She could work on it or make it live from any computer.  

Sure, but how about consequences for her actions? Taking her laptop away might not stop the website from existing but it would show her that keeping secrets like this and making such a poor choice has consequences. She's a 16 year old. Her parents get to decide if and when she can use a laptop and she has, in my opinion, demonstrated that her judgment isn't sound enough to use one without direct supervision. Like I said earlier, I think because they caught it before her website went live, the parents underplayed the severity of what Abigail did and spent more time making validating Abby's feelings and not enough time pointing out the dangers of her actions.

[sasha206]

The auctioning off virginity (and I know it's been done before) is just a WTF moment that seems a little too out there.  And it seems a little too out there that dad, even if he's hippy now, would be telling his daughter that he's so proud of her social activism the day after in an effort to reason with her.  I think dad reaction #2 would be the same as reaction #1 in addition to alerting the authorities of a potential illegal situation going down.

[kj4ever]

There is no way in hell that brat would get her laptop back if she were my kid.  No way.  Nathan is lucky he didn't have a black eye from not calling Maddie as soon as he knew what was going on, because I would have knocked him out.

Speaking of knocking people out, I am scared for Celeste for when she returns home.  I was very leery of Nicole playing the role because she has just over done it way to much with the plastic surgery - she has that desperate housewife or whatever the hell they are called.  That botoxed weird mouth/eye combo that those women all have.  I guess it is probably fitting on this show as Celeste is supposed to be a lot older than her hubby and would maybe take pains to look younger, and she looks more natural on the show rather than how surgeried up she's looked in recent interviews.

It makes me love Laura Dern even more.  I love when actresses just age.  She may have had some work, but nothing silly where her face is frozen with no lines in her 50's.  

Put me in camp how-are-they-going-to-wrap-this-up-in-an-hour.  We havethe rapist, the murder, the killer, the bully, the abusive husband, The Internet Prostitute daughter, the sexually frustrated whipped husband, the in-love man from the affair.  Jeeze I don't see how it's possible.

[madam magpie]

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

This truth right here! If the only way someone will treat you with basic courtesy and respect is if you call them on their bullshit and refuse to let them walk all over you, that person is a bully and an asshole, full stop.

In some ways, this is true. Renata does bully people. Yep, she does. That's part of the irony of the story. But a well written character is rarely just one thing, just as people in life are rarely just one thing. Renata is also fighting hard to protect her child, and is clearly desperate to solve this problem. The only reason the entire audience isn't on her side is because we believe Ziggy is innocent because we've gotten to know him and his mother. If this story were told from Renata's point of view, Jane would be enabling her menacing son to mistreat and abuse a little girl in his class. The dichotomy of Renata is the whole point of her character...well, that and being a foil.

Edited March 27, 2017 by madam magpie

[Eyes High]

22 minutes ago, madam magpie said:

In some ways, this is true. Renata does bully people. Yep, she does. That's part of the irony of the story. But a well written character is rarely just one thing, just as people in life are rarely just one thing. Renata is also fighting hard to protect her child, and is clearly desperate to solve this problem. The only reason the entire audience isn't on her side is because we believe Ziggy is innocent because we've gotten to know him and his mother. If this story were told from Renata's point of view, Jane would be enabling her menacing son to mistreat and abuse a little girl in his class. The dichotomy of Renata is the whole point of her character.

The problem with this argument is that you're suggesting that the story is not told from Renata's point of view as it is from Jane's, and that's not quite true. We do see things as told from Renata's perspective, even with specific reference to Amabella: her anxiety over the birthday party snub and her suggestion that Amabella should go to a therapist, her discovery of the bite mark and subsequent blowout with Gordon, etc. And even in scenes where Jane is nowhere to be found, there's very little to suggest that Renata is anything more than a bully: losing her temper and shouting on multiple occasions, bullying her husband to get her way and screaming at him in frustration over the bite mark (with her supposedly oh so gifted and sensitive child within earshot), Renata forcing the Avenue Q issue and then sneering and smirking at the Avenue Q meeting with the mayor when she was confident she would get her way, etc. It's all Bully 101.

I agree that Renata's frustration with a horrible situation is wholly sympathetic and understandable. However, part of being an adult is managing one's emotions, such as frustration and disappointment, appropriately. She doesn't get to scream her head off when she doesn't get her way, throw tantrums left and right, and fail to show others the basic decency and respect they should be accorded simply because she's having a rough go. Nor is her love for her daughter an excuse to behave like a rampaging toddler herself. Renata has shown a total lack of self-control until forcibly checked by others (Celeste, Jane, and even Gordon) and an absolute willingness to steamroll whoever gets in her way without any regard for basic kindness or respect: rudely forcing her way into Jane's meeting with the principal was a classic example. That is what makes her a bully, plain and simple.

Edited March 27, 2017 by Eyes High

[DarkRaichu]

1 hour ago, vibeology said:

I was so happy to see the return of the nannies. They didn't really do anything, but it was nice to see them there.

It was interesting how they frame Renata's nanny and Jane side by side for a second to make sure the viewers notice the nanny wore a better / more expensive looking outfit than Jane ;)

13 minutes ago, vibeology said:

Sure, but how about consequences for her actions? Taking her laptop away might not stop the website from existing but it would show her that keeping secrets like this and making such a poor choice has consequences. She's a 16 year old. Her parents get to decide if and when she can use a laptop and she has, in my opinion, demonstrated that her judgment isn't sound enough to use one without direct supervision. Like I said earlier, I think because they caught it before her website went live, the parents underplayed the severity of what Abigail did and spent more time making validating Abby's feelings and not enough time pointing out the dangers of her actions.

Yep, I would have yelled at her, taken her laptop and phone as consequences, calmed myself down, called the mom, and figured the best way to approach.  
Also Nathan was 100% spot on in predicting Maddy's initial reaction as in blaming him for Abby's auction

1 hour ago, Atlanta said:

You're never too old for Cocoa Puffs. :D If Bonnie was going to allow cereal in the house, I would have assumed it would be an organic brand from Whole Foods. 

Heh I thought she would have made her own dried oatmeal or corn flakes for cereals

1 hour ago, humbleopinion said:

Plus not organic cow milk... it would be a almond/flax seed/rice/hemp milk substitute.

But the organic milk that Nathan poured has DHA in it ;)

I thought Skasgard nailed the potrayal of menacing husband.  You'd never know what would trigger his outburst and you were left wondering when it would happen next. 

 

2 hours ago, Uncle JUICE said:

If there's a guy not named Adam Scott who wins best male (or supporting) performance in a mini series, I demand a congressional inquiry. He's been awesome from the beginning (as has everyone, really, especially Witherspoon), but last night that guy killed me. His thoughts on marriage were heartbreaking because I think everyone can feel that way at times, it was just so identifiable. And for men to feel that way, it's not really something we talk to each other about, but it's distressing. Even if your wife hasn't cheated on you, or you don't suspect she has a flame somewhere, even if things just seem like they're in this predictable track (which is essentially what we call stability in a relationship), every one of us, and I don't think it's just men, thinks at some point or another why are we not having this amazing sex like (we suspect) everyone else is, especially when everything else in our lives seem so in order. The way he approached that idea, the way the story approached it, was gut wrenchingly authentic: I don't say anything about how much you don't seem like you think about our sex lives because THAT would further ruin our sex lives. Because then I'd never believe you really wanted me the way I wish you would, and even if you did, I'd suspect you, and that's tainted too. I don't touch you because I know you don't want it as much as I do, or as often. 

I don't remember any show addressing this sort of issue before, it's a hard issue for men to talk about. Just outstanding. And Adam Scott really punctuated it. 

100% yes to the above.  Men's perspectives on marital relationship were often glossed over or used as punchlines in TV / movies 

[madam magpie]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

The problem with this argument is that you're suggesting that the story is not told from Renata's point of view as it is from Jane's, and that's not quite true.

Actually, it is true, though. Renata (and Bonnie...and Ed, Nathan, Abigail, etc.) aren't point-of-view characters, even though the narration here is omniscient. We get to know them as it serves the larger story. Everything we learn about Renata feeds the stories of Madeline and Jane, both of whom are point-of-view characters. We know that Ziggy isn't guilty (probably) because we see him from Jane's perspective as well as from the perspective of the narration. We have to decide if we trust Jane's POV (I do) based on story clues.

Renata lacks Jane's POV, though she got some insight to it in this episode. The POV characters are usually inherently more sympathetic because the audience has more information about them and because we tend to side with people we understand. It's why Breaking Bad can humanize a character like Walter White.

If this story were told from Renata's POV, we wouldn't see Ziggy as his mother sees him. We'd see him as the world sees him, which would be suspicious...as the Greek Chorus suggests.

None of this excuses Renata's bad behavior, but I get her and don't see her as a simple bullying antagonist. She's not just one thing any more than anyone else is, even if we don't know her as well. Plus, this show is doing a great job of asking the audience to question POV, especially in regard to Renata. The show even did it with Perry at first, in a great examination of the appearance of an abuser. Many in the audience sympathized with him until his more dominant personality traits took center stage. I suspect that was a purposeful story choice the same way Renata's characterization has been.

Edited March 27, 2017 by madam magpie

[Uncle JUICE]

46 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

 

100% yes to the above.  Men's perspectives on marital relationship were often glossed over or used as punchlines in TV / movies 

Well, you know us guys, we be horny, wantin' it all the time! Thanks for putting a much finer point on it than I did, seriously. I just found myself completely overwhelmed by that scene, because those are discussions I've had to find ways to have with my wife, it's just the nature of marriage (though I don't for one moment count myself as cynical enough to think pretending is a foundation of marriage, though it does happen). Look, I know as men we have it pretty good as far as what get portrayed about us in entertainment, etc. (which I use to mean "life", particularly white male life), but this is an area where I always felt like the stereotypical portrayal had a real life impact on men. It's not a crime to want to be wanted, but neither gender gets away very clean on this one. Women who want to be wnated, or who are sexually assertive, are sluts, men who complain about not getting laid are just boors. Neither is the case. 

Also, whoever said Scott Saarsgard is a good actor...gotta strongly disagree. I think he's the series lowlight, and it doesn't help that he's often playing opposite a powerhouse performance like Kidman's. It only makes him look worse. I get that he wears the shit out of asuit, but he's not nearly the caliber of actor that others have demonstrated. 

[stagmania]

3 hours ago, hoodooznoodooz said:

I rewatched in slow motion but can't figure out how Jane's shove resulted in Renata's eye injury.  

I don't understand this either. I was checking to see if she had any jewelry on that could've cut her, but she was only wearing one flat ring. Are we supposed to think she jabbed her eye with her finger or something?

[Blakeston]

12 hours ago, nara said:

I don't think Abigail is trying to draw attention to herself.  I believe her motives are pure, but this is a ridiculous way to get the job done.  She might sell her virginity and get $50k for the cause.  However, convincing her parents to do an annual fundraiser, volunteering while she is in school, and becoming a human rights lawyer are all ways she can make an ongoing impact.

Someone might offer her $50K, but she'd never actually be able to accept it and donate it. The authorities would be all over that.

12 hours ago, AmandaPanda said:

Even though the therapy scenes are super dramatically compelling, they make me furious. It's clear no one on the writing staff has ever actually worked with survivors of domestic violence. A therapist never pushes a client into leaving an abusive relationship. They make safety plans with the client and address any concerns, but it is completely unethical for a therapist to take the tone Celeste's therapist has taken. The most dangerous time for a person in an abusive relationship is when they try to leave. On average, a person in an abusive relationship attempts to leave 8 times before they finally succeed. Risk of homicide goes up massively when trying to leave. The fact that the therapist never actually made a safety plan with Celeste is totally irresponsible. 

I don't think the show is asking us to believe that Celeste's therapist is behaving like a typical therapist, or that she's following the official rules of conduct. She seems like she's decided to do whatever she can to convince her client to leave a horrific relationship, regardless of whether or not she's supposed to give that kind of advice.

[sacrebleu]

I think the rationale for the parents not completely freaking out about the website is that it hadn't gone live yet-- there was still time to change course.

Otherwise, I'm pretty sure Madeline would have gone ballistic.

As for the kids taste in music, it would make sense if we saw some adult in their lives with eclectic musical tastes that helped inform theirs. (funny side note: my brother is a professional musician, and his daughters are exposed to many different musical styles. My niece, then 5, was playing some alphabet game at school, where each child was assigned a letter and asked to draw a picture of something starting with that letter. My niece was assigned "B" and drew a picture of guitarist Bootsy Collins . The teacher thought it was hysterical that a 5-year-old would have heard of him-- but up on the class wall it went. B is for Bootsy, a musician Nora likes).

[madam magpie]

3 minutes ago, sacrebleu said:

I think the rationale for the parents not completely freaking out about the website is that it hadn't gone live yet-- there was still time to change course.

Otherwise, I'm pretty sure Madeline would have gone ballistic.

As for the kids taste in music, it would make sense if we saw some adult in their lives with eclectic musical tastes that helped inform theirs. (funny side note: my brother is a professional musician, and his daughters are exposed to many different musical styles. My niece, then 5, was playing some alphabet game at school, where each child was assigned a letter and asked to draw a picture of something starting with that letter. My niece was assigned "B" and drew a picture of guitarist Bootsy Collins . The teacher thought it was hysterical that a 5-year-old would have heard of him-- but up on the class wall it went. B is for Bootsy, a musician Nora likes).

Ha! That's awesome.

I feel like Jane had eclectic musical taste. She's also young and seems fairly hip/edgy. I don't have any trouble believing that Ziggy listens to what she listens to, or that she's not playing only mainstream pop hits or typical kiddie songs.

Chloe just seems to love music, and I suspect her parents mostly let her do or listen to whatever she wants.

[Eyes High]

36 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

Also, whoever said Scott Saarsgard is a good actor...gotta strongly disagree. I think he's the series lowlight, and it doesn't help that he's often playing opposite a powerhouse performance like Kidman's. It only makes him look worse. I get that he wears the shit out of asuit, but he's not nearly the caliber of actor that others have demonstrated. 

I think he fits the physicality of the role perfectly. There are few actors who could dominate Nicole Kidman physically onscreen due to her height, a point Nicole Kidman made in a recent Vulture interview. Alexander Skarsgard is unusually tall, not only in general but also as actors go. There aren't that many extremely tall actors in Hollywood, and most of them do not stack up physically to Skarsgard's looks (Nikolaj Coster Waldau from Game of Thrones could have also worked, but he's slightly shorter than Skarsgard). Throw in his Patrick Bateman-worthy body, the ability to wear the shit out of a suit as you said, blonde hair, and blue eyes, and you have a menacing image of stereotypical "all-American" physical perfection that can convincingly dominate Celeste.

I agree, however, that his acting is wanting, and pitting him against the excellent Nicole Kidman is like sending a knife wielder to a gunfight, so to speak. If the casting people really put a premium on height, though, I don't know whom else they could realistically have cast. Nikolaj Coster Waldau ticks a lot of the boxes (tall, blonde, handsome, wears a suit well), but 1) he was tied up with Game of Thrones and 2) he's no better than Skarsgard in the acting department. It's a fallacy that abusers always physically dominate their victims by being physically taller or stronger, and some of TV and film's most frightening villains have been played by actors on the short side, but ultimately TV is a visual medium, so maybe the casting people wanted a visual shortcut to establish Perry's threat to Celeste by casting an actor significantly taller than Nicole Kidman, and if that's the case, that likely limited their options.

Edited March 27, 2017 by Eyes High