Roseanna

Yes, she was offered good terms and had *then* no reason to fear of her and her family's life. Until then, she had shown neither ambition nor sense of duty but lived her life just as she had pleased.

A good list, but I beg to differ in in some points. Rhaenyra doesn't know that Aegon raped a servant girl as Alicent kept it secret. She is also wrong to believe that Alicent was unwilling to crown Aegon and that she lied about Viserys' dying wish. As we have seen, Alicent honestly believed it. On the other hand, Rhaenyra made a little success: she made Alicent to realize that Viserys spoke to her of "Song of Fire and Blood" that he had earlier spoken to Rhaenyra - that it, before his death he believed to speak to Rhaenyra, not Alicent, and thus Aegon he spoke about wasn't their son and "you" who he believed could prevent the prophecy to be true wasn't Alicent but Rhaenyra. Also, Rhaenyra wasn't wrong that Alicent didn't want people to die (although it was a part of her hypocricy that it could be prevented). In this scene Alicent was more realistic by saying that it was too late. In the second scene their roles were opposite. When Viserys ate the last time with his family, Rhaenyra made a peace offering to Alicent by praising her for taking care of Viserys, but their sons' mutual hostility destroyed a possibility to reconciliation (if there was any after Aemond was blinded bny Jace and Viserys took wholly Rhaenyra's side against Alicent).

It's easy to say when we as the audience know much more than the characters. IRL most of us are as "stupid". In addition, reading the book or watching the movie or series, we know the rules of the genre. Although surprises can and must happen, we know that the war must begin, otherwise why make this show? People here seems to wait eagerly for fights between dragons. It's easy to say when we as the audience know much more than the characters. IRL most of us are as "stupid". In addition, reading the book or watching the movie or series, we know the rules of the genre. Although surprises can and must happen, we know that the war must begin, otherwise why make this show? People here seems to wait eagerly for fights between dragons.

I beg to differ. Alicent and Rhaenyra's two discussion weren't only different, they were actually opposite. Earlier Rhaenyra went to Alicent with the aim to prevent the war, under the delusion that Alicent (who had no power) could make it happen *and* unwilling to realize and admit to herself that the only chance to peace was her own bending knee to Aegon. Now Alicent went to Rhaenyra, confessing her past mistakes and with an offer to open her the gates of KL, i.e. to betray the Blacks and, from Rhaenyr's demand, even let her son Aegon to be killed, in order to make the war shorter but most to get herself and Helaena live somewhere in peace - probably a futile hope. And what did she think would happen to her lover, her brother and third son? Cole's monologue was something new. Unlike Alicent, he wasn't under any illusion but realized that whatever the outcome would be, it would be bad. Although Daemon's arc was far too long, he realized his past mistakes and that he was only a part of the story that was bigger than himself - only, I have difficulties to believe it that he of all people could act against his character (Alicent really didn't, she had been only her father's tool.) All in all, the ideas about Alicent and Daemon's dvelopment weren't bad, but I admit that the realization was. The biggest fault was that all was only preparation.

Isn't motivation inside characters? Love, lust, fear, hate, envy, jealousy, greed. They all want something and/or want to avoid something. Or do you mean that only Daemon and Aemond act and other characters only react to their action? I don't think that's so simple. Daemon spent most of the season moping and reacting to Alys and Larys saved Aegon from Aemond. I think it's interesting that although Daemon killed his first wife and ordered to kill Aemons's little son, people don't condemn him, unlike Aemond, because he is so charismatic.

That. It was escalation. Otto was an active schemer but Viserys' passivity was as harmful if not more as he had power but he didn't use it.

But that would mean that other characters were robbed of motives and their roles and aims would be different and thus the whole pattern of the power struggle would change. That. She also had given up her own ambition and resented that of her husband.

Do "Rhaenyrys" mean Rhaenyra or Rhaenys? Rhaenys seems to have made her conclusions herself. She lost the election for a ruler and has wisely accepted that, unlike her ambitious husband. She gives him a wise counsel to name their true-born granddaughter as the heir, but he doesn't change her mind. She tries to to tell to Rhaenyra what the world is like but she doesn't listen. Rhaenys also told to Alicent "why you serve men instead of ruling yourself". But she can't do it, she has no right to throne. So was Rhaenys trying to divide the Greens? One thing more: we have almost forgotten biology as a decisive factor in women's lives, although both Aemma and Laena died in childbirth and both happenings influenced decisively on Rhaenyra's life. Because Aemma's son didn't live, she became the heir, and because Laena died, she could marry Daemon. Both Rhaenyra and Alicent are fertile and, most importantly they have given birth to sons. If Alicent had had only daughter(s), there would have been no struggle about succession (unless Daemon had contested it). Without her many sons Rhaenyra's positions would have been weak.

I don't think that Rhaenys did wrong - she gave Rhaenyra the choice to accept Aegon as king (the terns were good) or to fight for right. Rhaenys' attitude to Rhaenyra had been lukewarm at best. She believed that she ordered her son's murder in order to marry Daemon. She knew that her son aren't by her son and therefore wanted to make her daughter's daughter a heir. She reminded Rhaenyra that the lords didn't earlier accept a woman as Queen, which Rhaenyra arrognatly dismissed that they had accepted Rhaenys but had made oaths to her. She finally accepted Rhaenyra's offer about marriages between cousins which would guarantee that in the future the king and the lord of Drightmark would be her blood relatives.

That kind of a modern POV bypass that Alicent and Rhaenyra had complete different position. Alicent's position was entirely dependent on men as a daughter, wife and mother. Another kind of woman could have got informal influence, but she lacked that kind of character. She isn't a hard and cold-blooded schemer but needed to calm her conscience and was thus easily blinded by Otto. Rhaenyra had an unique position as an heir that made her feel entitled. She dind't listen to anyone but did just as she pleased and whereas that kind of behavior would have led other women to ruin, she was saved by her father's blind love. She failed to prepare in any way to succession and after it she had listened mainly to Mysaria, and the result was that she was almost betrayed by her own envoy. Now their roles have changed. Alicent wants to be "free" - as if she wasn't bound by her and her family's earlier actions. Rhaenyra feels she has no choice as her destiny was decided for her. Mysaria has made her believe that she can bring jutice to people. Surprisingly, it's Daemon who now sees clearly that they can't govern destiny but must play their roles although whatever they do, the result will be bad.

I should have said Rhaennyra was the last person who had a chance to stop the war to begin without any danger to herself but she chose her right to succession was more important. I am not blaming her for this show is based on the presupposition that people that characters can't really chose but their decisions are based on their character and position and therefore they put getting power first. Laenor was the only exception. I don't believe that the ability to raise children guarantees the ability to govern the realm and especilly to wage war.

The discussions between Rahenyra and Alicent wouldn't be a bad idea, if they had contained something we don't already know about them. But many here have already written about Alicent things that she had only now realized herself. Unlike others, I think that realization is worth respect - how many people IRL ever admit that they have been totally wrong? But it doesn't make good drama because it constains nothing new to the audience. The same applies to Daemon. What he realized with the help of his hallycinations about his relationship with Rharnyra and Viserys was nothing new to the audience. If the writers thought that he needed a wake-up, one hallycination would have been quite enough. The only "soul-searching" scene that contained something new was between Cole and Alicent's brother.

I see Rhaenyra quite differently. Until her father died, she lacked self-control and acted on the fasis of her feelings and desires instead of reason and, feeling entitled, made stupid decisions, like staying in KL, or didn't make decisions at all but just spent time in private matters instead of making allies. We shall see what results her decisions will have. But one thing is already made clear: it's hasn't been wise to spend so much time with Mysaria - even her Council doesn't trust her and also her son and heir is annoyed. Also, if one person had the possiblity to prevent the war, it was Rhaenyra who was offered quite good terms, but she put her right to succession above all else. Of course it was natural considering how she was raised (as well as similar cases in real history), but it shows that she lacks self-consciousness. She blames Alicent for all and takes no responsibility to herself.

Does Mysaria really believe that Rhaenyra will bring justice to smallfolk or is she just gaining her favor by flattery? Alicent said tto Heleana that while the blockade wasn't the their fault, they were been responsible for not breaking it. The king must be worth his title "The protector of the realm". Aemond is a fool when he doesn't even pretend to be "for the people", unlike Rhaenyra.

In the book I just read the cardinal virtues were defined thus: - Wisdom: the ability to make good decisions - Self-control: bringing emotions and cravings under the control of reason - Justice: for everyone what belongs to him - Courage: the power to do the right thing even under pressure - Big-souledness: the desire for greater and better - also for others - Humility: freedom from self-centeredness Although I don't believe these cardinal virtues help to win the power struggle in Westeros, I think it's still interesting to evaluate characters based on them. It's evident that Aegon and Aemond lack all those virtues. How about others?